The Instigator
amey
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
JuliusMaximus
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points

russia vs america in a war,russia will win

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
JuliusMaximus
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/17/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 78,245 times Debate No: 32586
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (25)
Votes (2)

 

amey

Pro

Obviously russia.
JuliusMaximus

Con

Thank you for posting such a thought provoking debate topic. I however must disagree with your earlier statement , despite the deep love and respect for Russia. I believe that if it were to come to war between these two great nations, the United States would emerge bloody and exhausted but victorious. That is, as long as Putin keeps his shirt on.;P
Debate Round No. 1
amey

Pro

I would like to thank con for accepting this debate .
But first i would like to know thoughts of con on this debate and then i would start my argument.
JuliusMaximus

Con

In my view the Superior United States Navy and Airforce would be a winning factor in this war.

U.S. Air Force

332,854 active personnel
185,522 civilian personnel
71,400 reserve personnel
106,700 air guard personnel
$140 billion budget
5,484 aircraft
450 ICBMs
63 satellites

U.S. Navy

317,464 active duty personnel
109,596 Reserve personnel
283 ships
3,700+ aircraft
10 aircraft carriers
9 amphibious assault ships
8 amphibious transport docks
12 dock landing ships
22 cruisers
62 destroyers
17 frigates
71 submarines
3 littoral combat ships

^"Status of the Navy". U.S. Navy. 26 October 2012. Retrieved 28 October 2012.^

Littoral Combat Ship-LCS is a fast, agile, focused-mission platform designed for operation in near-shore environments yet capable of open-ocean operation.

^ http://www.navy.mil... ^

As demonstrated in world war two, the country with a superior navy and airforce will prevail.

In order for this debate to go any further we would need to know if the U.S. Or Russia is the agressor.
Debate Round No. 2
amey

Pro

See I don’t think Russia is an aggressor, the following instances prove that Russia is not an aggressor:
1: The Russian air group had carried out the peacekeeping tasks as a part of the UN Mission in Sierra Leone in 2000-2005.
2: Russian peacekeeping forces had been deployed in Abkhazia in 1992-2008 to prevent escalation of the Georgian-Abkhazian conflict.
3: Russian peacekeeping forces had been deployed in Abkhazia .4: UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti. 5:Russian peacekeeping contingent has been deployed in Transnistria since 1992.
.
And now i start the argument that my opponent has said that "the country with superior navy and air force will prevail"

I think this is not true. in ww2 it was the army which was used to fight the most rather than air force and navy

. Now i will give the summary of the army,navy,airforce of Russia and America.
. russia . america
1.total population 142,517,670 . 313,847,465
2.manpoweravailable 69,117,271 . 142,212,012
3.military reserve 20,035,000 . 1,458,000
4.total aircraft strength 4,500 . 15,2936.
5.navy ship strength 224 . 2907.
6.submarines 58 . 71
7.total aircraft strength 4,500 . 15,29310.
8. total helicopter strength 1,635 . 6,665

I can believe from the above stastics that USA has the edge but russia has many advantages.here are some of the following conditions :

1.If USA invades Russia: Russia will just defeat USA in a day since the americans can't bear the siberian climate whereas the russians are used to adapt themselves to that type of climate.

2.If Russia is to attack USA: Russia would attack easily since it would have many allies like China, north korea,india,germany,france ,the US would not be able to fight this combined force.

3.If there is a war between russia and us: Russia would win since the USwould have no allies and if the US would have allies they would be some small nations such as Chile,Argentina,Spain,England.

It has also been proven in the history when Napolean attacked russia he lost the war and also when Hitler had attacked the soviet union it adopted the scorched earth policy and 3 lakh german soldiers surrendered and the same would happen with happen with US if the attcked russia or russia attacked the US.

sources:global firepower,nationmaster,wikipedia.
JuliusMaximus

Con

I never said that Russia was an aggressive nation, i only asked which was the aggressor so that we may debate things that would depend on such, such as international response and geography.

The allied air force was the main reason that National Socialist Germany lost the war. Their air force was inferior and crushed. Once this happened the allies could bomb German industrial centers at will, thus crippling Germany's ability to wage war . Once the Germans could no longer produce enough tanks, bullets, and guns the allies were victorious. The navy could be used to launch airplanes from aircraft carriers,and blockade Russia.

1.total population 142,517,670 . 313,847,465
- America has 170,000,000+ more people than Russia. This means that they have a vastly superior force available to produce wartime supplies.
2.manpoweravailable 69,117,271 . 142,212,012
- Again you make my case for me by admitting that the U.S. has twice as many troops as Russia.
3.military reserve 20,035,000 . 1,458,000
-Even with reserves the U.S. still has a vastly superior troop number than Russia.
4.total aircraft strength 4,500 . 15,2936.
- We have 3 times as many aircraft as Russia, with the quick air dominance that our Air force could procure we could bomb the Russian war machine until their wartime production was too little to fight us.
5.navy ship strength 224 . 2907.
-Our Superior navy cold easily blockade Russian ports, as swell as provide artillery support for a possible beach landing
6.submarines 58 . 71
-Again you prove my point
7.total aircraft strength 4,500 . 15,29310.
-Posted this twice, I addressed above.
8. total helicopter strength 1,635 . 6,665
-The Vietnam/North Korean wars proved the value of helicopters in warfare.

1.If USA invades Russia: Russia will just defeat USA in a day since the Americans can't bear the Siberian climate whereas the Russians are used to adapt themselves to that type of climate.

-Most Russians live in the Humid Continental Climate zone of Moscow where the temperature ranges from the low 20 degrees Fahrenheit to low 70 degrees Fahrenheit. This is also where most if not all of the fighting would take place.

2.If Russia is to attack USA: Russia would attack easily since it would have many allies like China, north korea,india,germany,france ,the US would not be able to fight this combined force.

I highly doubt that the Russians are Cooperating with the North Koreans. Also i doubt that China would be anxious to start a war with her biggest customer.

Lastly the U.S. shares long alliance with England, France, and other European nations.

3.If there is a war between russia and us: Russia would win since the USwould have no allies and if the US would have allies they would be some small nations such as Chile,Argentina,Spain,England.

England is hardly a small nation. They have an extensive network of alliances and a powerful military.

It has also been proven in the history when Napolean attacked russia he lost the war and also when Hitler had attacked the soviet union it adopted the scorched earth policy and 3 lakh german soldiers surrendered and the same would happen with happen with US if the attcked russia or russia attacked the US.

The loss of Napoleon and Hitler was largely due to the fact that the Russians executed a scorched earth Policy, this can also be sen in the Northern war between Peter the Great's Russia and Sweden. The scorched earth policy however would not be effective in a modern environment as armies no longer scavenge the surrounding area for food, but have it air-lifted in. Something that the U.S.'s air superiority would make incredibly easy.
Debate Round No. 3
amey

Pro

I am very impressed with your response,but russia too has many advantages such as size,geography,natural resources,economy,mountains, forests,etc.
The advantages are as follows:
1.Climate.
2.Geography.
3.Economy.
4.History.

1.Climate:
As my opponent has stated that most of the people live I the humid conditions of moscow is not true ,Russia's half of the population lives in the far east and they are used to that type of climate,whereas the americans live in a humid type of climate throughout the year and US cannot dare to invade Russia from west as russia's military base is stronger on the western side and if Us would invade Russia from east ,as i have stated above "most of the people live in the humid conditions in the US" and the Russian's are used to live in the siberian type of climate the american's will not suceed in adapting themselves tp that type of climate,they would retreat watching the mighty Russian's bearing the cold winds of siberia.

2.Geography:
Now I start with geography,I must say that geography is a god gift to Russia or a boon.Russia being the largest
country on earth has the largest forested area on the earth,largest water resources,natural resources and the US just has 33.2 % forested of its total geographacial area and like the US ,Russia does not go on cutting its trees every year but it preserves it ,so from the above factors it can be clearly stated that if US is to invade Russia ,US would lose easily since Russia would have abundant forests from which the Russian's could be fed and the americans would lose.

3.Economy:
After the fall of the USSR the russian economy suffered through many problems such as russian economic crisis of 1999 but it again rose up when VLADIMIR PUTIN was elected as the president and it became the world's 9th largest economy but i can believe that the, US is still the world's largest economy but in the future it is clearly visible that China is going to overtake US as the largest economy and by that time US and Russia would be on the same table and if there would be a war betwwen both the countries, Russia would easily since it's economy
would go on increasing and america's would go on decreasing.

4.History:
In the history it has been clearly stated that no one could defeat Russia and today also Russia has been respected as a super power.As I had stated this with the examples of Napolean and hitler in the previous debate
but con did not accept those examples,I have some more egs they are:

a.Russo-Turkish war[1828-29]=victory of the russian's
b.Polish-Russian war of 1792 =victory of the russian's
c.French invasion of Russia =victory of the russian's

These are some of the wars which had occured and therefore Russia is considered as a super power and from the above wars it has been clearly stated that Russia is not an easy opponent to face and it cannot be defeated at all
with its superior technology at the hands of the americans

Sources:wikipedia.
JuliusMaximus

Con


1.Climate
As my opponent has stated that most of the people live I the humid conditions of Moscow is not true ,Russia's half of the population lives in the far east and they are used to that type of climate,whereas the Americans live in a humid type of climate throughout the year and US cannot dare to invade Russia from west as Russia's military base is stronger on the western side and if Us would invade Russia from east ,as I have stated above "most of the people live in the humid conditions in the US" and the Russian's are used to live in the Siberian type of climate the Americans will not succeed in adapting themselves to that type of climate,they would retreat watching the mighty Russian's bearing the cold winds of Siberia.


This is simply not true, as in Canada the majority of the population lives in the warmest areas of the nation, and where there is historical settlement. The settlement of Moscow and western Russia by civilized Russians dates back 800+ years, where as the east was civilized much more recently. This early settlement of the western regions around Moscow owes to it's relatively mild climate compared to the far east, and the ability to grow crops there.


I would also like to point out that Moscow lies in the humid continental climate zone, the same zone that the north eastern U.S. lies in, so the climate of a place like New York City would be comparable to the land in which most fighting would take place.


2.Geography.


Russia's geography is both a gift from God and a curse from Satan. You mentioned the vast forests of Russia, and how that could feed your people, how may I ask, do you reasonably think that you will be able to sustain a population of 100 million by hunting? Secondly I would like to point out that Russia has very little farm land compared to the U.S.


Russia:
arable land: 7.11%
permanent crops: 0.1%
other: 92.79% (2011)

U.S.A:
arable land: 16.29%
permanent crops: 0.26%
other: 83.44% (2011)
-
https://www.cia.gov...


Now it is obvious that the United States can produce far more food than Russia, and for further proof I would point out that the U.S. exports over 50% of the world's corn.
-USDA


Now, I would like to re-direct our attention to my opponent's tactic of slashing and burning , this would obviously take part in the line of the U.S. advance, and decimate the small percentage of farm land Russia has. As the United States advanced, the Russians would fall back into less and less inhabitable lands, until they could no longer feed their army on the surrounding land.

3.Economy

Like my opponent said, the U.S. has the world's largest economy save the E.U. even in the midst of a crushing recession the U.S. economy was second to none.[I would like to pause here to admit that I admire Vladimir Putin deeply] It is possible that the U.S. economy will be surpassed by China, but there are signs that China's growth is slowing, it's population is ageing and reaching retirement and even if China surpassed the U.S. that would mean nothing for Russia.

5.History
Russia has had it's share of military triumphs, but it has also seen it's share of defeats like any other nation, who can forget the failures of the early Russians against the fortress city of Azov. However, the proud tradition of military victory can also be seen in the U.S. in the defeat of the vastly superior British empire, and then in both world wars, Vietnam, north Korea, the gulf war, the Mexican-American war ectra.


Most defeats of Russian invaders have come because they can not maintain supply lines over that vast of distances, and their attacks stall in the winter. However with the extremely modernized war machine of the U.S. supply drops, and heat would be no problem.




Debate Round No. 4
amey

Pro

Since I have described climate, geographical conditions,forests,history,economy.
Now I will start with the airplanes,armour,submarines of the Russian navy, air force and army.
1. Russian Air Force:
Russian air force has the following planes:
1. 1.Fighter aircraft:
a.SU-27
b.SU-35
c.mig-29
d.su-34
e.su-30mki.
f.sukhoi pak fa.

2. Bomber:
a.tu-22m
b.tu-95
c.tu-160.

2.American air force:
1.fighter aircraft:
a.F-15C
b.F-15E
c.F-16
d.F-22

2.Bomber:
a.B-52H
b.B-1B
c.B-2

I would like to say that if there would have been an air battle between both the countries Russia would win hands down ,see the reasons are:
1.Russia has the fifth generation sukhoi pak fa to which f 22 raptor is no match.
2.Russia is also developing Sukhoi/HAL FGFA which is a fifth generation fighter, this fighter palne is much more effective than the above mentioned palnes of the USAF.
3.Though Russia has less number of aircrafts but they have quality and quantity within it. So the above reasons are enough to prove that Russian air force would win the air battle with USAF if there would have been an air battle.

Now comes the navy.i think so that the Russian navy is far more more superior to the US navy
you may check with the article below.
http://english.pravda.ru... above is the proof.
In terms of army ,if there would have been a war between these two countries I think Russia woould win easily, even though Americ amay have the worlds 4th largest standing but eventually russia would win since it would the largest reserves as i stated this in the 3 round and also because of better armour , weaponary,tanks.

sources:
1.http://en.wikipedia.org...
2.http://en.wikipedia.org...
3.http://en.wikipedia.org...
4.http://en.wikipedia.org....
Thank you it was a good debate and a nice experience for me too.

Vote for pro.
JuliusMaximus

Con

I disagree, I belive that even the brave and courageous Russian Airmen would be outmatched by the USAF.

Lets start with the fighters.

1.Fighter aircraft:
a.SU-27
b.SU-35
c.mig-29
d.su-34
e.su-30mki.
f.sukhoi pak fa.
Vs.
1.fighter aircraft:
a.F-15C
b.F-15E
c.F-16
d.F-22

Now, if we ignore the fact that the PAK FA is still not out of the testing phase, and ignore the time and money it would take for Russia to produce 200 PAK FA[that's assuming USAF would decide to stop building them on the onset of war], and focus only on my opponent's arguement that it is superior the Russian Air Force might be competitive. However, even if I concede all of these points, the matchup is not as one sided as my opponent would have you belive.

Speed:F22 advantage
Armament: Comprable
Avionics: F22 advantage
Range:PAK FA advantage
Dogfigting: Comprable
Countermeasures: Unknown as F22 countermeasures are Classified, but most likely Comprable
BVR:F22 advantage
Stealth: F22 advantage

So, the F22 would be equal or better than the PAK Fa

Now lets look at the overall fighter force

The U.S. has 1698 combat fighters in the USAF alone, not to mention the aircraft in the US Navy.
The Russian Air Force , on the other hand only has 545 Combat fighters.

The U.S. fighters are not only are comprable if not superior , but also have a 3 to 1 numbers superiority.

Now, I would like to re-direct the attention to the defeat of National Socialist Germany in WW2, and how in the final years the Luftwaffe they could not produce enough fighter aircraft to defend Germany. A similar thing would happen when the american fleet of 66 supersonic bombers, and 20 stealth b-2 bombers devestated Russian factories.

The American Navy is so superior to the Russian Navy it isnt even funny. The site you listed is extremely biased. It even accuses America supports terriorists[in the case of Syria I agree completely Long Live Assad] the U.S. Navy has

10 aircraft carriers, 22 cruisers, 62 destroyers, 28 frigates, and 71 subs

the russians have

1 aircraft carrier, 5 cruisers, 13 destroyers, 4 frigates, and 31 subs

sources:

http://aircraft.wikia.com...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 5
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Seahawks12Nation 1 year ago
Seahawks12Nation
woah woah woah woah woah honestly Russia is powerful? Russia is pretty powerful but Russia lives in poverty no offence but they do have more poverty then America...
Posted by Diegomayra 1 year ago
Diegomayra
A full out war between USA and Russia highly unlikely and the assets mentioned would never be utilized. The United States of America has over 598 declared military facilities around the world, the manpower required to man those bases would not make it possible for them to be deployed vs. Russia.

Secondly, Russia is not naive and not self-destructive and would not pursue aggression first versus the United States of America.

Thirdly, before the onset of any meaningful engagements the lead up to armed conflict would cripple Russia's economy. The people of Russia would suffer deep and lasting economic sanctions which would make any protracted engagement with the United States of America unlikely.

The United States would not dare a land occupation of any Russian territory; it would be deadly, but with the combined NATO forces, Russia would inevitably have to capitulate before any armed conflict in my honest opinion. That's not to undermine deep gas shortages and petrol caused due to the conflict/
Posted by munir 1 year ago
munir
Russia & America (USA) have done mistakes of invading other countries.

USSR invaded Afghanistan and was defeated.
USA invaded so many countries (Japan, Vietnam, Afghanistan Etc.) and got nowhere.

A clash of USA & Russian will make them cool.......................... I would love to have world with equality but in the current era, USA's International Policeman Role must come to an end.

Neither Russia nor USA, the world will lose. The world may come under severe crises.

Allah (God) bless both and the rest of the world.
Posted by cryme2rivers 1 year ago
cryme2rivers
We are going to be zombies, I say that metaphorically with all tv and subliminal injection of ideeas, we are controlled and manipulated on every step by media on every aspects of our lives, they tell us what is good to eat( we are to stupid to know that) , how to dress like, what to buy , in what to belive etc. <I am an conspiracy paranoid?....you are a vegetal slave>
It is called "propaganda" it has been used in the cold war, american civil war etc. since the Roman empire, its a fake and intentional exaggerated advertise that has multiple uses like:
adversary intimidation, placebo based moral growth, alliance forming leverage, etc.
When they say russian vs usa war they immediately present you a picture with american ultra high-tech naval fleet , inside many 20 feet digital monitors with all kinds of lasers and sophisticated technology, on the other side russians with rusty old submarines and crappy ships, inside all 19 century analog clocks small crt screens and lever based technology. ( just dare to say i'm wrong :))) )

but , let us face the facts, russia is an world superpower , most of the world fears it and most important there is NO country in the world that can win a war against russia without allies, not even usa.
im not pro russia nor pro usa but im just not a zombie.
Posted by putinisadictator 1 year ago
putinisadictator
lol typical ignorant talk.

First, the united states is on its way to energy independence. Currently 38.8% of americas oil comes directly from the united states, 19.6 latin america, 15.1 canada, 12.9 persian gulf, 10.3 africa and 3.1 other. At the latest, 2024 the U.S. will be entirely energy independent. So the argument that if a war breaks out, america won't have the natural resources to fight russia is ridiculous.

Second, as far as military equipment goes, the U.S wins hands down. Its not what is public you should worry about. Its the BLACK BUDGET projects you'll have to deal with. 58.2 billion annually is spent on top secret projects, russia only spends 90.7 billion annually on its entire military. Again I repeat, a tiny portion of our budget (58.2billion) is spent on top secret projects, well over half of Russia's total military spending. So the argument that they could possibly have developed anything more sophisticated then the U.S. military is laughable. Russians and their ignorance lol

Third, that cold weather and your landscape as a protective shield. Thats a riot!!!!!! The northern U.S. is very cold! Now its not siberia cold, but I can assure you, we have plenty of tough young men and woman who could easily handle a russian winter, especially since we are well funded and will have plenty of gear to keep us warm. What do you expect, us to arrive in swimsuits for a war in Russia lol idiots!

Finally, if I haven't swayed you.......China would never join russia's side. China holds to much american debt to screw us over. Our debt acts as a leash on China. They would never enter a war against the U.S. Additionally all the allies the Russian lover listed germany, france etc. they would never fight the U.S. Russia would have no allies. If you count weak nations such as Iran and N. Korea be my guest, they are pawns have them!
Posted by Alex1980 1 year ago
Alex1980
I think that none of you have a clue of what their talking about.
FIRST. A war direct war between the USA and RUSSIA would be catastrophic for the entire planet, there would be no winners.
SECOND. BOTH ARE SUPER POWERFUL COUNTRIES, we don't know what USA is capable nether what RUSSIA is capable either.
THIRD. Diplomacy is the way to go IF something ever happends between both country's, RUSSIA KNOWS AND USA KNOWS.

and just to finish, SECRETS AND INFORMATION are more valuable than anything! Anything! Including nukes, technology, weapons, whatever you put in front! Secrets and information!! You could be Kenya, Ecuador, Congo, or any other poor country but if you know their secrets and you hold precious information during war times, you can grab anybody by their balls, no matter what!!
So in my opinion, we all loose..... There would never be a war between Russia and USA, they call it Cold War, but that's as far as it goes, or they call it, Syria Cuba, South Korea, Iran, ......, , But is crazy to think to see Russian jets bombarding New York, or American jets bombarding Moscow, or a nuclear strike in either one, never going to happened....
Posted by JRaff 1 year ago
JRaff
Someone needs to get the allies right, France and Germany are allies of the USA they have a large base in Germany. Russia would loose due to the fact the US is more advanced and have been spending allot more for a long time. USA has been upgrading missile defense constantly and their nuke subs have never been detected and are just off the coast of any aggressor. North Korea is no threat to the USA at all, they only threaten to attack South Korea in which the USA has always been sympathetic to all nations. Further allies are to attack if their allies are under attack or they would be attacked by not doing so by their allies. People should realize that the USA is the only country that come 's running providing aid to every country in need. The USA is not the aggressor, if so why did they not just take over Iraq and control the oil and so on? all they wanted to do is get rid of a dictator that was killing innocent people and give them their country and freedom back. USA helps everyone who is in need, no one comes to aid the USA when a catastrophe happens.
Posted by shegol 1 year ago
shegol
In new modern russian military doctrine, is clearly marked that Russia are free to decide whether to use nuclear weapons in time of threat ( say Russia are losing war, so it uses nuclear weapons just to brake it even or eliminate the threat).
To your surprise, believe it or not Russian ballistic missiles are far more superior that US ones
Compare S-18 to US minuteman , I admit most of them are aged enough but still there are no counter weapon that can bring them down. They made with idea, shoot once and forget about the target it will be destroyed. No patriot no even modern AGIS system can bring them down. They can manueur, the can deceive and jam radar, and create numerous fake targets. Say one missles duplicate itself for up to 100 missiles . so there is no way system know which one fake which one is real , and that happens in minutes.
Plus there are always up to 3 russian submarines carrying secret duty underneath the arctic ocean .
One submarine alone can decide the fate of one country , even big as US. ( 20 missiles in one submarine, every missile carries up to 10 warhead way more powerful than those dropped in japan)
600 US cities will vanish if Russia allows that.
Moral is " there will be no winner.
Posted by abry3236 1 year ago
abry3236
And if there was a war, no one took into account the petrolem works, Russia produces the 2 most oil in the world, US consumes the most in the world, so how is the United States going to produce military equiptment without gas? How are they going to run all those tanks, helicopters, boats, ships, destroyers to finish the war?! Did anyone take that into account, honestly? And forget about Saudi Arabia selling it to the US. Obama has screwed that up. He has messed up alot of relations througout the world. And plus Russia can handel their debt, but America, my friends, we are so much in debt, who in the world would lend more more money that we cant even pay back?
Posted by abry3236 1 year ago
abry3236
average americans dont know Russian history nor do they care, but when it comes to this debate about who would win, u.s citizens think without even looking at a brief history that they could defeat the russians, amey is completely right, russia will always have someone have their back, their allies would destroy one or a few countries alone
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by danielawesome12 2 years ago
danielawesome12
ameyJuliusMaximusTied
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Total points awarded:16 
Reasons for voting decision: Amey I'm your friend but you clearly have little idea what you're talking about.
Vote Placed by ProudBlackVoter 2 years ago
ProudBlackVoter
ameyJuliusMaximusTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro was constantly complementing pro on his arguements, but his arguements seemed a bit biased and nationalistic, while con's arguements were backed with facts. I gave pro the sources because he posted sources throught the debate, while pro only posted them in the last round, and the one was rather biased.