The Instigator
missmedic
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Skye2468
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

secular morality is superior to biblical morality

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/26/2018 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 378 times Debate No: 118740
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

missmedic

Pro

Every major institutional religion in the West and most in the East urge"sometimes by means of threats or bribes, E. G. , Of hell or heaven"that one accept package deals chosen by others. In my view, This is a profound cognitive immorality. Morality is about making choices based upon independent judgment, And any belief system that undermines that core responsibility is immoral.
Skye2468

Con

Before I start I will say that I am a Christian. So I'm sure my views on life are way different than your views. I will try to not be biased and stay open minded.

I understand what you are saying about heaven or hell, But if heaven and hell are absolute truths, Then they are absolute. Many times it may seem like we are threatening, Or bribing, But you have to understand that to us these are very real places that we will spend eternity.

When I go out and tell people to repent and put there faith in Jesus alone for salvation, Or otherwise they will go to hell. I am not threatening them. I am warning them. I will admit that many Christians either go out and preach it wrong, Or they are just plain hypocritical, But if they are doing it right, And for the right reasons, They are warning because they love everyone enough to tell them to avoid hell, And turn to God who is infinitely better than anything they have, Or ever could have

Now since I wanted to clear that up a little, Now I want to ask a question. Do you agree with jail, Or prison?

The reason I ask this is because hell is kind of like Gods prison. This is where he punishes law breakers. The fact that society has jail and prison systems has prevented many people from breaking the laws. Is it immoral that some people chose, Or cannot commit a crime because they were threatened with jail, Or prison?

Something else I want to clear up about Christianity anyways. Sure we come to God because we feel guilty and to save us, But afterwards that is not the reason we serve God. After we have been saved by God, We actually serve him because we are grateful, And thankful for what he has done. We learn to love him, Because he loves us. We also learn he wants the best for us.

Now I also have a few more questions for you because this debate isn't about Christianity. It is about secular being superior to biblical morality.

What if I was to say it wasn't superior? Whos right and whos wrong? If you are right then why am I wrong? If we have no basis for our morality, How can you tell me what is wrong or right? Without a basis, Anything you or I say that is moral and immoral is just an opinion. If your opinion is correct, Why is your opinion correct or more valid than my opinion? What if I was to say you calling that immoral was actually immoral itself?

Also lets say that God of the Bible is real for a second, If he is then it would mean he is the standard of morality. Meaning that secular would not be superior to his word, Which is the Bible.
Debate Round No. 1
missmedic

Pro

Let us look at this from a philosophic point of view, Your philosophy (a christian philosophy) is your worldview, Which is a backdrop for all thought and a context for all knowledge. Philosophy is not some arcane field important only to old men in ivory towers. It explicitly asks and answers fundamental, Inescapable questions such as "How can I know something? " and "What should I do? " Without some answer to these questions, No knowledge or action is possible. Again, The only choice is to explicitly examine the underlying assumptions involved or to be at the mercy of the random flotsam picked up throughout life.
If one is going to ground morality in religion, One needs to choose among the many religions and their competing moral messages. All religions have many messages and practices"some peaceful, Some violent, And so on"and individuals choose among them to put together a personal religion that reflects the morality they already judge to be more or less good.
That is, In my judgment, Is more morally healthy than those who accept wholesale a pre-existing religious package of beliefs uncritically. For example, The major Western religions incorporate the Bible, And much in that text is barbaric and written by and for barbaric peoples.
The healthier individuals are those who pick and choose. The deist Thomas Jefferson is famous for literally cutting out only the passages in the Bible he approved of and pasting them into a separate notebook for his personal reference. Most people do the same, Only less systematically. One does not need to agree with all of their selections to respect that they are thinking for themselves and rejecting many immoral beliefs and practices required by the religious texts. That is an honorable path to moral development.
The picking and choosing, Though, Means that morality comes before religion. One has a personal standard of morality first, And one then selects the religion that one independently judges fits best with it. Most all humans have this innate sense of morality.
Ok, Lets say that the biblical god is real and the biblical claim that god is a perfect moral being is real. That would be one of the many moral contradictions that exist in the bible. Because the only way by which God can be a Morally perfect being is under the axioms of his own framework. For no moral compass can be Objective unless subject to, And the focus of the displayed definition of Morality itself. If we are to be lead by example, Then the biblical god is a bad example of morality.
Most religious people including Christian believe their morality with certainty, This mind set can be dangerous if not deadly. With moral certainty a person can fly a plane into a building, Burn a witch alive, Stone a nonvirgin or kill atheists.
The Christian philosophy is dogmatic, It can not be changed improved or question. There's an ongoing need to develop and refine our moral understanding. The problem is the false and morally corrupting idea that the lawmaker is perfect. It's corrupting because, In causing us to accept unjust laws, It leaves us defending the indefensible. We don't base morality on revelation from authority, That would render us merely obedient. Moral behaviour is doing what's right, Not what we're told unless what we're told is also what's right.
Dogmatic moral beliefs are what they are " they can"t be corrected through thought and experience. The bible is an authoritarian rule book not a moral guide, Making "your" thought and experiences valueless. Morality needs critical thought and a continuing examination. We live in a continuously changing world with new kinds of moral problem being generated all the time and much harmful ignorance still to overcome. It's only through abandoning certain widespread religious ideas that progress towards a truly just and consistent morality is possible.
Skye2468

Con

Hey, I don't really feel good tonight. So I will respond to all you said next round. If there is anything you would like to add go ahead and do it. I look forward to our conversations.
Debate Round No. 2
missmedic

Pro

Lets look at this from a pragmatic point of view, See what works and what does not work. One of the greatest secular laws is the universal declaration of human rights which includes everyone born on this planet. Religious laws do not includes everyone, Making the religious the biggest violator's of human rights. Secular laws can be changed, Revised, Edited or improved, Unlike religious laws which are dogmatic and based in ancient belief, With no concern for improving the human condition. Making secular morality superior to biblical morality.
Skye2468

Con

I want to give an analogy. If I was to tell you my dad beat me, He would leave my mom by herself everyday, And strangled a poor innocent bird. What would you think of him?

He would sound like a horrible man, But now lets say I grew up and matured and started understanding more details.

He never beat me, He actually disciplined me because he loves me. The reason he would leave my mom everyday is because he is a hard working man, And made money to feed his family. He didn't want to kill the bird, But it was terribly sick and suffering so he did what he had to do so it would not suffer anymore, And he grieved as he was doing so.

Many times some of the things people say are barbaric in the Bible they just don't understand Gods reasoning for doing certain things, Or allowing certain things, But with all the extra information we can see in the analogy that the reasonings were actually good. Many of the ways of God we cannot understand without his Spirit.

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, For they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, Because they are spiritually discerned. " 1 Corinthians 2:14

By my experience people who pick and choose verses, Two different things happen. Either they use it to their advantage to try and discredit the Bible, Or if they do believe the Bible they get lead astray because of lack of understanding. The entire Bible should be used, And studied to fully understand the message it is giving.

When you said "Ok, Lets say the Biblical God is real and the Biblical claim that God is a perfect moral being is real" You said it would be a contradiction. It doesn't matter. Even if it sounds like a contradiction to us, If it's real then it's real. God is the standard of morality. He is God. He is the standard and sustainer of literally everything. He is not a created being in the universe, That is bound by laws he created. He is a timeless, Spaceless, Immaterial, Infinite, The standard, And sustainer of everything.

The message of the Bible is clear that genuine Christians will not be out flying planes into buildings, Burning people alive, Killing. Matter of fact here is a pretty good verse.

"These things I have spoken to you, That you should not be made to stumble. They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, The time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. But these things I have told you, That when the time comes, You may remember that I told you of them. John 16:1-4

You said it's a false idea that the lawmaker is perfect. How would, Or could you know this?

One of the biggest difference between pretty much every religion and Christianity is that every religion lays down a list of rules and says you must follow these rules to impress God, Or go to heaven.
The Bible says on the other hand that we cannot do that because no matter what we do we cannot hit Gods standards. So instead of us trying to make it to him by our own effort, He came down as a human which was Jesus, And took our punishment for us. So almost every other religion is us trying to reach towards God, While Christianity is God reaching for us.

I will agree that some Christians do not understand this, So it causes them to go out and tell the world you must follow these rules. But that's not the message the Bible is giving.

God wants us to follow Jesus, Not to earn anything. We don't deserve anything. He wants us to follow Jesus out of love for him, And because we are thankful for what he has done for us. Yes the Bible says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, But that's just it. It's the beginning of wisdom because it shows you the punishment you deserve, And God loving you he came down and took it for you. So now we are grateful for what he has done, And want to serve him. Not because you want to be saved from hell. If we repent, Which means change our minds about Jesus, And put our faith in him alone to save us, And not in out good works. We will become born again and you will now have a new understanding, And a new heart with new desires.

Everyday I am learning new things, And being corrected through thought and experience. When it comes to following Jesus there are many new things to keep learning, Every time I think I have it figured out God shows me that I know nothing.

Gods ways are perfect, There is no need for changing, Revised, Editing, Or being improved. You don't believe that the law maker is perfect, But you don't have a basis for this belief. I do in the Bible.

You might then say I don't know that the God of the Bible exists, So it's not a valid basis, But I am claiming I do know he exists.
It is more likely for me to know he does exist then it is for you to know he does not exist. This is because an omnipotent being can prove himself to me individually, While you on the other hand would have to have all knowledge to claim he did not exist.

You might also say that there are many other religions, How do I know that mine is the right one.
Well first thing there is way more proof for Christianity than any other religion, So it's not blind faith. Also like I said God proved himself to me individually. I can believe the sun is hot, While someone else believes it's cold, We can't be both right.

If God does exist, And he is the standard of morality it does not matter what you think. Your basis is your own mind, And you are making a judgement that secular is superior with your flawed finite mind. If God is truly the standard then he is the standard, And no matter what you believe that wouldn't change.

Sorry for going off topic a little bit. I just wanted to make these points. I enjoyed talking to you and lets have another debate sometime in the future.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by missmedic 1 week ago
missmedic
Your such a presumptuous azzhole.
Posted by jackgilbert 1 week ago
jackgilbert
@Missmedic- that's not what we're saying at all
Posted by missmedic 1 week ago
missmedic
Because they are your enemy. When someone is trying to shoot you in the face, Show them love and see how it goes.
Posted by zhaod1 1 week ago
zhaod1
Why is loving your enemies a contradiction?
Posted by jackgilbert 1 week ago
jackgilbert
@Skye- well said
Posted by missmedic 1 week ago
missmedic
loving your enemies is a contradiction one of many the Christian embrace, Illogical metaphysical bullshlt.
Posted by jackgilbert 1 week ago
jackgilbert
@Omar- I understand where you are coming from but only loving those who don't love you is not significant.
Matthew 5:46-47: "if you love those who love you, What reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, What are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? " Everyone loves people who love them but going a step further means loving your enemies as well
Posted by Thoht 2 weeks ago
Thoht
I'd just like to leave this note

There is no reason for us to accept that God, Were he to exist, Would be the standard for morality. Humanity has made its own morality, And were any God to tell me to sacrifice my son I would tell him to go to hell.

The Euthyphro problem describes this best. If God's commands are what makes things good, There's no difference in saying "God tells us something is moral" and "God tells us something. " The problem is we have to accept anything he says is moral. I'm not quite ready to turn off my intelligence at this point. The second option is that God is describing morality to us, So Morality exists without God, And is able to be determined by Humans. It also means there is at least one thing God does not control, Making him not such a God after all. There are no solutions to this problem.
Posted by omar2345 2 weeks ago
omar2345
@Skye2468

How could you love someone who does not love you back? As far as I know most prayers are remained unanswered.

How is God's prison more helpful then our prison? The prison systems punishes offenders of the rules we as a society agreed upon. I haven't seen anyone punished by God's prison. You can argue their time will come but in this reality we can't idly sit by and wait since if we do not stop them they will keep offending. Faith is good and all but secular morality delivers more fair results.

Biblical morality is from the Bible.
Who follows the Bible? Christians
You can argue Christians are picking and choosing but I would say the followers make the movement.
I wouldn't blame @missmedic if he brings up Christians. Since they do follow teachings of the Bible.
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