The Instigator
liem
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
squeakly54n6
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

we need to build a wall

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/20/2019 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,167 times Debate No: 120346
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (12)
Votes (0)

 

liem

Pro

we need a border wall along the southern border. It would make it a lot more difficult for these immigrants to cross illegally and be able to do what hard working Americans do without deserving it.
squeakly54n6

Con

I would like to start off by stating that I am NOT against border security, I think it is rather important that only mentally stable people who will obey the law be let into the country. However I am rather uncertain about this notion that the border wall is the best solution to the immigration problem. . All of that being said I am going to now present my argument for why a border wall across Mexico isn't the best solution to the illegal immigration problem.
- The amount of illegal immigrants stemming from over stayed visas has increased from 41 percent in 2008 to now 44 percent in 2018. While the rate of illegal immigrants on foot has dropped considerably ever since trump enacted stronger border patrol laws. SOURCES, Https://www. Nbcnews. Com. . .
https://www. Factcheck. Org. . .
- Furthermore once the wall is build who is to say that many will simply dig tunnels or come in through boat. One could make the argument that boats and tunnels are too hard to make and most will come in on foot. However as Ive already previously stated, The amount of illegal immigrants coming in on foot has dropped considerably while the amount from over stayed visas is rising so it would be a better long term investment to spend that 21 billion dollars and invest it into enforcing expired visas. SOURCES, Https://www. Nytimes. Com. . .
- Another one of my problems with building a wall is that the federal government would take away PRIVATE land to build said wall as seen in this article where Texas landowners are trying desperately to keep their land. SOURCE, Https://www. Washingtonpost. Com. . .
- My last major issue with the wall is the yearly upkeep required for the wall. While I could not find any statistics for how much the upkeep will cost, I could imagine it would be somewhere in the millions as you would need building materials, Vehicles for transport, And a large staff required for the nearly 2, 000 mile long wall assuming it gets built.
All of that said while I will agree that a border wall would prevent some illegal immigrants from entering the country, Enforcing the people with expired visas and investing in more border patrol agents would be a better solution to the issue at hand. These 2 methods would also be significantly cheaper than building a 21 billion wall with millions more being spent on the upkeep.
Debate Round No. 1
liem

Pro

okay well lets start with the overstayed visa statistic. Its an estimation. We do not know how many illegals are here right now, Again we have estimations but no real stats. The estimation is anywhere between 27% to 40%. So that means that the MINIMUM is 60%. Still a pretty big number. And yes make the argument that the rate is falling, But its 3% in 10 years. With a wall, The numbers will be better. Lets all admit. The tunnel thing, The boat thing. Absolutely asinine. Donald Trump created better border control laws and policies, So wouldn't that mean they would be a bit better at detecting a giant whole forming next to this wall. Secondly the wall's foundation would be as deep as 22 feet according to homeland security officials. So really how many people are going to be able to dig 22 feet deep using tools that border patrol won't notice. Not many. And boat? The gulf of Mexico for example is always being watched by border patrol. Cameras, Undercover boats, There are even microphones on buoys closer to shore. And 21 billion is not a big number in the US budget. People complain about how NASA's annual budget is small, Well thats how much it would cost. And this isn't a reoccurring thing, 21 billion and thats it. And the upkeep? According to a statistician named Liberty Villet, She said anywhere from 150 to 750 million. So at the most, 2 of Floyd Mayweather's paychecks. And the 2 methods, Wouldn't be less then 21 billion, They will add up. Once we move away from the border and focus on visas, More will come through, Then, You need to pay even more to handle both. Probably more then 21 billion in the grand scheme of things.
squeakly54n6

Con

"And yes make the argument that the rate is falling, But its 3% in 10 years. "
I have no idea what your source is, But my source claims that illegal immigration via overstayed visas has gone up 3 percent in 7 years. Even so the amount of illegal immigration on foot has been steadily declining and in a few years the percentage of illegal immigrants via overstayed visas will overtake the amount by foot.
SOURCE, Https://www. Factcheck. Org. . .
" Let's all admit. The tunnel thing, The boat thing. Absolutely asinine. "
How exactly is it asinine? A Lot of drugs are either flown in through plains or on a boat. While the majority of drugs are being smuggled in on foot, The drugs that are smuggled in on foot are either through tunnels or hidden inside of vehicles, All of which a wall wouldn"t prevent.
SOURCE, Https://www. Nytimes. Com. . .
"Donald Trump created better border control laws and policies, "
Why should we spend billions of dollars on a wall when it seems that Trumps policies and border patrol is doing a good enough job already?
" Secondly the wall's foundation would be as deep as 22 feet, According to homeland security officials. So really how many people are going to be able to dig 22 feet deep using tools that border patrol won't notice. "
I have no idea where your source is from, However for the sake of argument I'll pretend the wall will go underground 22 feet, The majority of the tunnels found by the US have gone either gone as much or even exceeded 22 feet.
SOURCES, Https://losangeles. Cbslocal. Com. . .
- I would also like to mention that the links to my sources sadly may not work, If it doesn't I implore you to tell me as I believe siting sources is rather important.
Debate Round No. 2
liem

Pro

liem forfeited this round.
squeakly54n6

Con

Twas a shame
Debate Round No. 3
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by squeakly54n6 3 years ago
squeakly54n6
@Christen
" What I didn't agree with was communism, Not that the government shouldn't take away private property for the greater good. "

- That is essentially, What communism is.

" It's what we need that matters, And we need to reduce illegal immigration. "

- So once again, If you don't care about property rights than why are you against the government seizing the means of production in order to distribute them equally amongst the population.

" A lot of things right now will probably be irrelevant in 20 years. That doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in them. "

- You understand that we would still invest into strengthening our border patrol and coast guard right? Its not like we would cut all funding of them once the issue is irrelevant. What I am stating is that why would we invest billions of dollars into an issue that is already being solved. Especially when a wall wouldn't reduce the illegal immigrant population by much in the first place.

" This is not about which solution is the best and which is the worst. "

- It actually is, We were discussing in the debate about whether or not a wall is a good or bad solution. We were not discussing how many solutions we would implement as that would cause more problems than it would help us which i'll elaborate more on in the next point.

" This is about how many solutions we can afford to implement.

- The bottom line is this country is 22 trillion dollars in debt, And we can't afford to waste money on inefficient solutions, We should instead focus all of our efforts into only funding the efficient solutions. In this case the wall would not be an efficient solution and therefore it is a waste of tax dollars.
Posted by Christen 3 years ago
Christen
"if you agree that the government should't take away private property for the greater good, Than why are you fine with the government taking away private property for a wall"

What I didn't agree with was communism, Not that the government shouldn't take away private property for the greater good.

"I mean would you like it if the government took away your private land? "

It doesn't matter what we like or don't like. It's what we need that matters, And we need to reduce illegal immigration.

"Why would we spend money on an issue that is already going to be irrelevant in 20 years. "

A lot of things right now will probably be irrelevant in 20 years. That doesn't mean we shouldn't invest in them. If taking counter measures to reduce illegal immigration for 19 years becomes irrelevant by the 20th year, Then so be it.

"I already stated previously that I believe the coast guard, Strict immigration laws, And border patrol are doing an effective job and our great solutions to the issue. What I am stating is that a border wall isn't effective and instead the money would be better off used elsewhere. For example, Investing in border patrol or the coast guard would be more effective at stopping illegal immigration, Human trafficking, And drugs than a wall would"

I agree that some solutions to reducing illegal immigration are better than others. I agree that having the coast guard, Better immigration laws, And border patrol are all better than having a wall. However, Like I said, This is not about which solution is the best and which is the worst. This is about how many solutions we can afford to implement. If our solutions were border patrol, Immigration laws, Coast guard, And wall, And we could only afford to choose 3 of them, Then yes, I would pick border patrol, Immigration laws, And coast guard, And leave out the wall, But if we can find a way to have all 4 of those solutions, Than that's even better than being forced to choose just 3, So lets have all 4 so
Posted by squeakly54n6 3 years ago
squeakly54n6
@Christen
" What you're referring to is basically communism, Which I am not fine with. "
- Ok so than if you agree that the government should't take away private property for the greater good, Than why are you fine with the government taking away private property for a wall. This is assuming a wall is even for the greater good in the first place.
"Also, Why wouldn't they want the wall. Do they not care about the security of our border, Or are they just concerned about their own little chunk of land? "
- From what I am guessing a lot of them care about border security, But they probably want more efficient border security that doesn't involve their land from being taken away. I mean would you like it if the government took away your private land?
" And I bet that having a wall will bring down the number of illegal immigrants even further, "
- I have already agreed that a border wall would reduce illegal immigration by a bit however once again, Why would we spend money on an issue that is already going to be irrelevant in 20 years.
" This is about how many solutions we can implement, "
- I am not claiming in any way that we should implement only one solution, I already stated previously that I believe the coast guard, Strict immigration laws, And border patrol are doing an effective job and our great solutions to the issue. What I am stating is that a border wall isn't effective and instead the money would be better off used elsewhere. For example, Investing in border patrol or the coast guard would be more effective at stopping illegal immigration, Human trafficking, And drugs than a wall would.
Posted by liem 3 years ago
liem
okay so i would"ve posted a third argument. However i tried multiple times to do so and the website would glitch and wouldn"t allow me to post it. I messages my opponent and let him know as well. I"m unable to post my argument here because it contains too many characters.
Posted by Christen 3 years ago
Christen
I meant to say Illegal immigration IS an issue that requires multiple solutions to address, Not just 1. Sorry for that spelling error.
Posted by Christen 3 years ago
Christen
"many of the Texans who are losing their land don't even want the wall in the first place. If you think that the government has the right to take away private land for the greater good, Than you should be fine with the redistribution of wealth and seizing the means of production. "

What you're referring to is basically communism, Which I am not fine with. Also, Why wouldn't they want the wall. Do they not care about the security of our border, Or are they just concerned about their own little chunk of land?

"I am against wasting tax dollars on something that won't even help america. "

Except a wall will help America by making it harder for people to get in illegally.

"The illegal immigrants in the country has gone drastically down ever since ever since Trump became president. So yes border patrol an Trump inc-acting stricter laws on immigration is doing a good enough job already. "

And I bet that having a wall will bring down the number of illegal immigrants even further, Along with stopping people from getting in by the coast, By planes, And through random secret tunnels.

"A Lot of drugs are either flown in through plains or on a boat. While the majority of drugs are being smuggled in on foot, The drugs that are smuggled in on foot are either through tunnels or hidden inside of vehicles, All of which a wall wouldn"t prevent. "

Illegal immigration isn't an issue that requires multiple solutions to address, Not just 1. A wall alone won't help. Stopping people from sneaking in through tunnels alone won't help. Keeping them away from the coast alone won't help. Keeping them from coming by plane alone won't help. What will help is for us to have a solution for the border (the wall), Have another solution for the tunnels, Have another solution for people coming by boat, And another solution for people coming by airplane. This isn't about which single solution is the best. This is about how many solutions we can implement, And I believe liem already addre
Posted by squeakly54n6 3 years ago
squeakly54n6
" So all we have to do is figure out a way to locate these tunnels to destroy them, And have surveillance cameras and/or guards to catch the people coming by boat. "
- My argument was that I a wall would be ineffective to the illegal immigrants by boat and through tunnels which is the argument my opponent made. Also that is the main point of my argument which is that we should instead invest the money into stricter border patrol and coast guard.
" If this wall will help reduce illegal immigration, Then it is worth losing a bit of land. "
- That is completely immoral and wrong, Many of Texas land owners are losing parts of their farm for the wall. In-fact many of the Texans who are losing their land don't even want the wall in the first place. If you think that the government has the right to take away private land for the greater good, Than you should be fine with the redistribution of wealth and seizing the means of production.
" A lot of things in this country will require money and/or yearly upkeep's to maintain, And there's nothing wrong with that. "
- I understand that a lot of government run programs are going to cost a yearly upkeep, However I am against wasting tax dollars on something that won't even help america.
"Because they're not "doing a good enough job already" and even if they are, A wall will allow them to do an ever better job deterring illegal immigrants. "
- Border patrol is doing a fantastic job actually, The illegal immigrants in the country has gone drastically down ever since ever since Trump became president. So yes border patrol an Trump inc-acting stricter laws on immigration is doing a good enough job already.
SOURCE, Https://www. Factcheck. Org. . .
Posted by Christen 3 years ago
Christen
"All of that being said I am going to now present my argument for why a border wall across Mexico isn't the best solution to the illegal immigration problem. "

Nobody argued that the wall would the "best" solution. It is just one of the many solutions to help reduce illegal immigration. Squeakly54n6 is wasting his/her time attacking an argument that no one made.

"Furthermore once the wall is build who is to say that many will simply dig tunnels or come in through boat. "

So all we have to do is figure out a way to locate these tunnels to destroy them, And have surveillance cameras and/or guards to catch the people coming by boat.

"Another one of my problems with building a wall is that the federal government would take away PRIVATE land to build said wall"

If this wall will help reduce illegal immigration, Then it is worth losing a bit of land.

"My last major issue with the wall is the yearly upkeep required for the wall. "

A lot of things in this country will require money and/or yearly upkeeps to maintain, And there's nothing wrong with that.

"Why should we spend billions of dollars on a wall when it seems that Trumps policies and border patrol is doing a good enough job already? "

Because they're not "doing a good enough job already" and even if they are, A wall will allow them to do an ever better job deterring illegal immigrants.

There, I have refuted all of Squeakly54n6's arguments.
Posted by squeakly54n6 3 years ago
squeakly54n6
" These 2 methods would also be significantly cheaper "
- I did further research on this and came to the conclusion that a wall would be cheaper than border patrol, However my counter argument is that border security has proven to be effective for stopping illegal immigrants and drug trafficking.
Posted by John_C_1812_II 3 years ago
John_C_1812_II
Why is building a wall as a cattle fence more important than building two walls much deeper as part of a canal system. The canal will cost much more but can provide services that make a return on money that is spent on it creation and cost to be maintained.

It will not stop immigration simply directed those who immigrate over, Or through the canal gates, Which are dam"s, Water containment for rising sea levels, Power accumulators, That also just so happen to be bridge across the canal.

The canal also becomes a water supply for both Southern United States and Mexico.
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