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KAG_Kody
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8/21/2020 6:20:06 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
Sorry it took so long I work 14 hour days.

Quick though experiment

If you were stranded on a island with few rations and some seeds, How would you try to survive? I would assume that you would try to live of f the rations and plant the sees, Because the value of the seeds is less than the potential value of the plant the seeds become.

Note that we never question the possibility of having the seeds, In this experiment we actually have seeds.

My defense

I never argue that consciousness is what makes someone a person. A person is a human being. There are a lot of people who are not conscious that I don't lose love for. Anytime my wife sleeps, She is still a human being. If she were to slip into a comma from which she may wake, She is still a human. What makes humans valuable is that they are human. Humans have intrinsic worth just by being human.
I also never claimed that the DNA is what determines they type of consciousness. Only biological attributes and some personality traits. These are the things that make us unique. And those cells are unique after the first cellular reproduction. Which is why I don't argue that abortion before the first cell divides is Murder. But that window of opportunity is only a little over six minutes. For six minutes is about how long it takes a cell to reproduce.

Now that cluster of cells in the wrong is human being. They are homo sapiens cells, That exist. Human being. Human (Belonging to or pertaining to the homo sapiens race) being (existing). Now the thing that makes these cells more valuable than your skin cells (which are also valuable) is that they are not an organ or individual isolated cells, They are that humans whole body. They are separate from the skin cells of the mother, Distinct with its own DNA. Getting rid of some skin cells is not the same as killing someone. But getting rid of ALL of someones cells, Is. If its intentional, Than its murder.

Next, I do NOT argue that a fetus is a potential person. A potential person as you correctly say is any unique human that might come into existence. All of the potential combinations of DNA you might create, From billions of reproducing people, With billions of DNA segments, Have the potential to create trillions or quadrillions of unique sequences of human DNA. Therefore, The fetus is not a potential sequence of DNA, It is an ACTUAL sequence of unique DNA. So, I say the fetus is an actual human, Not a potential one.
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KAG_Kody
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8/21/2020 6:20:30 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
All sperm cells are the same, Carrying the same DNA. The DNA sequencing that occurs when mixed with the egg is random. So, The unused sperm is not ridding potential humans because that same potential exists with any sperm ell. ANY sperm cell, Used or unused, Old or new, Can achieve that person in question. Even if sperm were to eliminate a potential person, Its meaningless, Because we don't worry about a theoretical potential. We care about actual persons, Which a fetus, Being actual, Is.

Morals are objective and ETHICS vary from person to person, Area by area. Morals are felt by all societies. The definition of morality is; Moral systems are interlocking sets of values, Virtues, Norms, Practices, Identities, Institutions, And evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate self interest and make cooperative societies possible. All societies, All people operate on the same moral axioms. ETHICAL systems might vary from one society to the other. The age of consent is an ethical system that varies from different societies. Bull all societies are MORALLY opposed to rape.
Care/Harm
Fairness/Cheating
Authority/Subversion
Loyalty/Treachery
Sanctity/Degradation
Liberty/Tyranny
Moral and immoral issues fall under one of these dichotomies without exception.
Now all political issues are moral ones. So, Using morals to talk about abortion is perfectly appropriate. If morals didn't matter then dealing with public policy, We wouldn't bother doing anything with public policy. The moral distinction of Care, Livery, And Fairness, Are the things that change a killing into murder or self defense.
This doesn't mean that potentials are worthless, And they should be looked at. A reasonable person would not eat those seeds mentioned in the experiment, Because a reasonable person looks at the seeds and recognized the potential value of the seeds to grow, And bare you fruit when the rations run out. But actively trying to create as many people ads possible just because they "could be" is outside the realm of reasonable possibilities. Since doing this to the best of our abilities still means trillions of potentials are left actualized, We instead focus of the few that are actualized. Ie: the potential human that became an actualized fetus.

ATTACK

When you get rid of a cluster of cells you are getting rid of something much more then mere skin cells. Your getting rid of the entire organism. Id doesn't matter if the cells are conscious. You don't lose your humanity when you sleep. If you get rid of an unconscious cluster of cells like a sleeping person, You're not immune from murder because they were sleeping.
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KAG_Kody
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8/21/2020 6:21:53 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
As far as the chaos theory where you can never know that saving a fetus will doom someone in the future, That may be, But in terms of social policy we o with what we know. The infinite realm of possibilities always troubles us, But we operate within a realm of reasonable possibilities. All political issues dead with morals. We make our decisions on what is moral and what is realistic.
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KAG_Kody
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8/21/2020 6:22:09 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
This also opens the door up to a eugenics argument. If you wanted to curb crime with abortions then it would mean the most effective way to cut crime would be to eliminate the African American population, Since the odds of an African American becoming a murderer (using the same standards we used earlier are) 2. 88%

I wasn't going to comment on the multiverse theory but I guess I have to. I don't care about what another me is doing in another universe. We are in this universe, So we have to decide what we do here without worrying about the others. You could justify anything by simply saying, "another me didn't do it though" or "another me did do it though"

By the Way the multiverse theory doesn't even have the scientific consensus to be call3ed true. It is a fringe idea that doesn't have any evidence for it. There aren't any calculations for it. It was created post hoc after calculating the odds of life occurring in our universe. Not even Stephen Hawking liked the idea of the multiverse. He never completely dismissed it either, But didn't buy it.
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KAG_Kody
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8/21/2020 6:22:53 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
We can justify any injustice. The reason southern dixicrats used to maintain slavery is that they thought freeing all the African Americas at once would cause a massive race war. Given my opponents logic here, They were correct. Why not then go through and kill all the poor people? After all, Poor people commit violent crime disproportionately. If your base utilitarianism of the wide area of unknown possibilities, Then suspicion will overtake judicial process.
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KAG_Kody
Posts: 7
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8/21/2020 6:24:25 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
The point my opponent made about a cluster of cells growing up and having a 50/50 chance of committing murder is false. According the Data World Bank there are only 5 murders out of 100. 000 people in the United States. Assuming everyone ONLY committed one murder each the chances of someone becoming a murderer are 5/100, 000. That"s 00005 percent not 50. If we base our justifications of anything on, "Well we just don't know what they are going to do in the future" We can justify any injustice. The reason southern Dixiecrats used to maintain slavery is that they thought freeing all the African Americas at once would cause a massive race war. Given my opponents logic here, They were correct. Why not then go through and kill all the poor people? After all, Poor people commit violent crime disproportionately. If your base utilitarianism of the wide area of unknown possibilities, Then suspicion will overtake judicial process.
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