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Philosophers Mafia Endgame

The-Voice-of-Truth
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4/23/2017 3:14:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Town wins!

TOWN:

SarcasticIndeed: You are Emmanuel Levinas, Vanilla. You have no role. You win with the Town.

Bailey: You are Arthur Schopenhauer, Vanilla. You have no role. You win with the Town.

Unstoppable: You are Edmund Husserl, the Tracker. Each night, you may visit any player. You will learn who that player targetted. You win with the town.

Geo: You are Martin Heidegger, the 2x Cop. You may visit any player and learn if they are innocent (Town) or guilty (Mafia). You are also a 1x BP. In any one night that you do not use your investigative ability, you may use your 1x protective ability. You win with the Town.

Chaos: You are Ludwig Wittgenstein, the Miller. You appear guilty to Cop results. You win with the town.

Tree: You are Emil Cioran, Vanilla. You have no role. You win with the Town.

Kesc: You are Walter Benjamin, the JOAT (1x Lie Detector, 1x Jailkeeper, 1x Bulletproof). Any given night, you may choose to visit a player using one of your abilities. As Lie Detector, you may lie-detect one player's post of your choice. You will be told if it is True or False. As Jailkeeper, you may visit any player in the night and Jailkeep them. That player will be protected but will also be blocked from using their role that night. As Bulletproof, you may in any one night protect yourself from death. You win with the town.

YYW: You are Soren Kierkegaard, Vanilla. You have no role. You win with the Town.
Subutai: Your are Jacques Derrida, the 2x Vig. In any given 2 nights, you may target any player. That night, the targetted player will die. You win with the town.

Danielle: You are Simone de Beauvoir, Vanilla. You have no role. You win with the town.

MAFIA:

Wylted: You are G.E. Moore, the Roleblocker. Each night, you may target any player. That night, that player with be blocked from using their role. You win with the Mafia.

Warren: You are A.J. Ayer, the Ninja. If you carry out the NK, you cannot be Tracked/Watched. You win with the Mafia.

Lucky: You are Gottlob Frege, the Godfather. You appear innocent to Cop results. You are also the 1x Strongman. In one night, if you carry out the NK, it cannot be prevented. You win with the Mafia.

THIRD PARTY:

Mharman: You are Maurice Merleau-Ponty, the Babysitter. Each night, you may target any player and protect them. However, if you choose to protect a player and are killed that night, both you and the player you protected die. You win with the town. [Converted to TP].

NIGHT ACTIONS:
https://docs.google.com...

OTHER INFO:

The theme was Continental Philosophers vs. British Philosophers.

Scum were not given fake claims.
"If anyone wants to engage in casual anti-Semitism, then whatever." ~Max

Vaarka swung his sword at the mod. However, since I am now incorporeal, he ends up accidentally striking the entire American landmass (It's a REALLY bastard sword), destroying both continents. Spiders are now at 50% of capacity."
The-Voice-of-Truth
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4/23/2017 3:27:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
So, this was my first modding experience, and I found it a lot more fun than I thought it would be. I hope you guys enjoyed the game. If you have any criticisms/critiques, I'll be glad to hear them.

When Spinko shared with me the original set-up, I was quite frankly surprised. I had to fix a lot of balance issues. It seems like it went well. I would like your input if you have any on how I could have better balanced this game.

This was the original set-up:

Town:
1 Emmanuel Levinas- sidekick
2 Arthur Schopenhauer- vanilla
3 Edmund Husserl- tracker
4 Martin Heidegger- cop, 1x BP
5 Ludwig Wittgenstein- BP miller
6 Emil Cioran- vanilla
7 Maurice Merleau-Ponty- babysitter
8 Walter Benjamin- JOAT (1x LD, JK, Sensor)
9 Soren Kierkegaard- vanilla
10 Jacques Derrida- vig
11 Simone de Beauvoir- vanilla

Mafia:
12 G.E. Moore- roleblocker
13 A.J. Ayer- watcher
14 Gottlob Frege- Gf
"If anyone wants to engage in casual anti-Semitism, then whatever." ~Max

Vaarka swung his sword at the mod. However, since I am now incorporeal, he ends up accidentally striking the entire American landmass (It's a REALLY bastard sword), destroying both continents. Spiders are now at 50% of capacity."
YYW
Posts: 44,676
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4/23/2017 3:41:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 3:27:20 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:
So, this was my first modding experience, and I found it a lot more fun than I thought it would be. I hope you guys enjoyed the game. If you have any criticisms/critiques, I'll be glad to hear them.

When Spinko shared with me the original set-up, I was quite frankly surprised. I had to fix a lot of balance issues. It seems like it went well. I would like your input if you have any on how I could have better balanced this game.

This was the original set-up:

Town:
1 Emmanuel Levinas- sidekick
2 Arthur Schopenhauer- vanilla
3 Edmund Husserl- tracker
4 Martin Heidegger- cop, 1x BP
5 Ludwig Wittgenstein- BP miller
6 Emil Cioran- vanilla
7 Maurice Merleau-Ponty- babysitter
8 Walter Benjamin- JOAT (1x LD, JK, Sensor)
9 Soren Kierkegaard- vanilla
10 Jacques Derrida- vig
11 Simone de Beauvoir- vanilla

Mafia:
12 G.E. Moore- roleblocker
13 A.J. Ayer- watcher
14 Gottlob Frege- Gf

Town and scum MVP?
Chaos88
Posts: 4,097
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4/23/2017 4:18:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
As far as my erratic behavior, I am not sure what is meant by that, so I cannot really comment on it. Feel free to explain it here or in PM. I'll more likely read it in PM; however. However, it is likely due to either my paranoia (which I can keep in check sometimes, but not during periods of mental strain, like my current IRL situation) and/or the fact I play on my phone at work, which is naturally distracting and disjointed. As pointed out by YYW and possibly others, I know next to nothing about the theme (a big reason I like playing these games), so I largely ignored theme analysis and mod psych regarding it, and when that was a major selling point in scum reads DP1 and DP2, naturally, I didn't respond in kind. Scummy, I guess, but understandable.

To be honest, Wylted can be stubborn and if he doesn"t like a play, he rallies against it. That play this time was the mass claim. His refusal to claim is not affiliation indicative; in fact, it was more likely he was town. Naturally, I noticed his justification and immediately voted him. Before that, Geo, whom I town read, gave Wylted cover for character, so I wasn"t willing to lynch him based solely on that, and his behavior was null.

Warren was a different story. While I disagreed with Lucky"s assessment of his behavior, I did notice his behavior was different than his town play. I was trying to lull him into a false sense of security, to get analysis of others from him, since I have successfully deflected a framed guilty on him before.

Regarding my miller claim. All of you SOP whiners are barking up the wrong tree, since, like with most policy, you don"t see the value in it. Let me break it down for you:
1. YYW claims a mass claim is ideal since mafia will not know the theme.
2. A miller is thematically linked to their character (i.e. the miller character is part mafia and part town from a theme perspective)
3. By claiming miller AND my character, mafia has key insight into town"s fit into the theme (as evidenced by Lucky"s analysis and statement that I was a miller based on character)

So, me claiming miller late, was actually pro-town, since the idea was to force character claims with as little theme knowledge as possible (remember that YYW refused to offer analysis as to theme for this very reason - he didn't want his analysis to clue in mafia to potential fake claims). Further, it allowed room for analysis into anyone who offered a false analysis into the theme. And, as Lucky pointed out, I often do claim miller late into the DP, and am perfectly fine with being lynch. I support a DP1 lynch of miller if no better options exist, and that lynch wagon can be analyzed.

Things I said this game were twisted and fabricated, and this was done by town, most of the game. Not sure if it is the way I said things, autocorrecting on my phone, people not reading carefully, seeing what they wanted, or what, but I was accused of saying things I did not say since very early DP1. It's easy to see how one can be frustrated, and also easy to see why one is "scummy", if they are being misrepresented constantly and trying to defend/correct the statement.

Shame on inactive players. One DP or so isn't a big deal, and it can be communicated to the players, but, it seems that people sign up and are only willing to put in effort when the numbers are lessened (i.e. DP3 or so), or only put in effort at the beginning and tap out later. For shame.

All in all, I enjoyed myself. Thanks to the mod for modding. I especially like playing in spinko's games, since I don't know the theme, and they are balanced.
YYW
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4/23/2017 4:23:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 4:18:28 PM, Chaos88 wrote:
As far as my erratic behavior, I am not sure what is meant by that, so I cannot really comment on it. Feel free to explain it here or in PM. I'll more likely read it in PM; however. However, it is likely due to either my paranoia (which I can keep in check sometimes, but not during periods of mental strain, like my current IRL situation) and/or the fact I play on my phone at work, which is naturally distracting and disjointed. As pointed out by YYW and possibly others, I know next to nothing about the theme (a big reason I like playing these games), so I largely ignored theme analysis and mod psych regarding it, and when that was a major selling point in scum reads DP1 and DP2, naturally, I didn't respond in kind. Scummy, I guess, but understandable.

To be honest, Wylted can be stubborn and if he doesn"t like a play, he rallies against it. That play this time was the mass claim. His refusal to claim is not affiliation indicative; in fact, it was more likely he was town. Naturally, I noticed his justification and immediately voted him. Before that, Geo, whom I town read, gave Wylted cover for character, so I wasn"t willing to lynch him based solely on that, and his behavior was null.

Warren was a different story. While I disagreed with Lucky"s assessment of his behavior, I did notice his behavior was different than his town play. I was trying to lull him into a false sense of security, to get analysis of others from him, since I have successfully deflected a framed guilty on him before.

Regarding my miller claim. All of you SOP whiners are barking up the wrong tree, since, like with most policy, you don"t see the value in it. Let me break it down for you:
1. YYW claims a mass claim is ideal since mafia will not know the theme.
2. A miller is thematically linked to their character (i.e. the miller character is part mafia and part town from a theme perspective)
3. By claiming miller AND my character, mafia has key insight into town"s fit into the theme (as evidenced by Lucky"s analysis and statement that I was a miller based on character)

So, me claiming miller late, was actually pro-town, since the idea was to force character claims with as little theme knowledge as possible (remember that YYW refused to offer analysis as to theme for this very reason - he didn't want his analysis to clue in mafia to potential fake claims). Further, it allowed room for analysis into anyone who offered a false analysis into the theme. And, as Lucky pointed out, I often do claim miller late into the DP, and am perfectly fine with being lynch. I support a DP1 lynch of miller if no better options exist, and that lynch wagon can be analyzed.

Things I said this game were twisted and fabricated, and this was done by town, most of the game. Not sure if it is the way I said things, autocorrecting on my phone, people not reading carefully, seeing what they wanted, or what, but I was accused of saying things I did not say since very early DP1. It's easy to see how one can be frustrated, and also easy to see why one is "scummy", if they are being misrepresented constantly and trying to defend/correct the statement.

Shame on inactive players. One DP or so isn't a big deal, and it can be communicated to the players, but, it seems that people sign up and are only willing to put in effort when the numbers are lessened (i.e. DP3 or so), or only put in effort at the beginning and tap out later. For shame.

All in all, I enjoyed myself. Thanks to the mod for modding. I especially like playing in spinko's games, since I don't know the theme, and they are balanced.

Lol really?
Chaos88
Posts: 4,097
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4/23/2017 4:28:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
By the way, I will post this here and in my endgame too, for new players.

It is imperative you do not discuss details about any ongoing game, even if you are dead. It is a fine line, and if you cannot walk it, don't. Talking about your behavior in an ongoing game when you are already dead is one thing (e.g. offering meta), but disclosing your actions or anything else (e.g. a statement made by a mafia member in the mafia PM) that was not disclosed publicly is NOT okay.

Mharman was the babysitter, and used his action NP1 to target YYW. This was not stated in Philosopher's, but was brought up in my game. While relevant to explain his actions in my game, it crossed the line in this game, even though he was long dead. The reason is:

If Mharman used his role, then there should have been two deaths NP1. There was not, so it was not known if the role was used or not. Stating the role was, in fact, used NP1 on YYW means there is a reason YYW did not die. At the time this was disclosed, there were only four players alive in this game. If YYW did not die, then that means Kesc must have used his role as he stated he did, which makes him town. Further, it means YYW was mod-confirmed town to Kesc per his role. With Magic confirmed town for not hammering, that meant that due to Mharman's statement, it pointed to Lucky as scum by process of elimination. Luckily, Dani and Magic did not catch this.

Be careful what you say about an ongoing game, as it can have severe impacts on it, even after your death.
Chaos88
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4/23/2017 4:30:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 4:23:28 PM, YYW wrote:

Lol really?

Not sure what you are referring to, but, yes, that is my rationale. Agree or don't, it doesn't change my thought process or strategy that was implemented. Offering insight is all.
YYW
Posts: 44,676
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4/23/2017 7:38:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This was a lovely game, other than Khaos's failures to play competently as miller despite his very inaccurate post-hoc justifications, the tremendously long night phases, Khaos's belligerency and unethical behavior, Khaos's name calling and specious accusations, Khaos's terrible ability to contribute to the town, Khaos's disasterously inaccurate almost schizophrenic reads, and every other reason Khaos is the scum MVP.

Danielle's attitude was irritating, but she has her moments. Same with LikeMagic. Both should check their egos when playing. Despite LM's bad reads and poor play (e.g., ISOs that lead to the exactly wrong conclusion every single time), she offers some potential as a player in the game. Good activity from LM, and better than Danielle... especially at first, when she was cooperative and gave me her character claim early on. That was critical to town winning the game, and it was exactly the right thing to do.

Khaos's post hoc justifications with respect to why his miller claim -- at the time that he did it -- being pro-town is stupid. His whole theory hinges on the idea that his claim would have revealed the theme to scum, when in reality it would not have because Lucky's rationalle for Miller doesn't make sense if the theme was continential v. british philosophers, as Wittgenstein was not british. Lucky was engaged in misdirection, there. Being skeptical as I was about Lucky's suggestions as to the theme being analytic v. continental (because of my character and Danielle/LM's character), his full claim early on and consistent with Miller SOP would have helped me scum read Lucky earlier, but instead we had to have Khaos's delusional side show which was profoundly harmful to the town. The only way that Khaos's claim would have been revelatory to the theme is if the theme were analytic v. continental, and it was not, it was british v. continental, which he remains too dumb to understand.

What Khaos further fails to understand is that claiming miller to then go un-CCd when there is a cop in the game allows the game's balance to take effect; the fact that it was not, here, was further prejudicial to the town, in ways that Khaos's brain is not equipped to comprehend.

For the record, I had to get Lucky by PoE, but there were other factors that influenced that decision. There is no doubt Kesc was town because of his role and what he did during the entire game, no matter what others have said. The fact that Dani and LM missed the obvious fact that he was town and allowed themselves to be manipulated by Lucky is still surprising to me, but the fact that he was able to do that and nevertheless have Dani believe him is a testament to his ability to play as scum.

(Besides that, for reasons I don't want to go into because of the prejudicial effect it will have on my interests in future games with Lucky, there were numerous things he did which, even if Dani and LM were to ISO read Lucky's posts should have revealed that he was scum. The fact that they both failed to pick up on this tells me that they really don't know what he does and how he does it when he's scum. That's fine though... Lucky is a good player... but he was still had by PoE, which is why they should have narrowed it down, and therefore have no excuse no matter their method of reasoning.)

As far as town goes: I think MHarman offers a lot of potential for the game. He's eager and 'spunky' in terms of a new player, which is good. Being eager to learn and being highly competitive as he is makes him very promising in the future.

As far as Scum goes: Lucky, despite his protests, still played very well; and Warren played better than I expected, he just fell for my trap, which is fair enough. Lucky's activity as viewed day by day, suggests that for DP1, DP2, and DP3 he was really engaged in pro-town activities although things changed after that. He did very well. Warren also is highly promising for reasons similar to MHarman. He's eager and spunky and he wants to learn; is also fairly competitive, which are all good signs.

Scum had many structural advantages, but one major disadvantage was that Lucky was unable to prevent his scum buddies from being lynched DP1 and DP2 (because he didn't read his role PM DP1). Do I blame lucky for this? No. That's his strategy and it obviously served him well because he survived until the very end, and had he not engaged in that strategy he likely would not have survived until the end. So, it would be unreasonable to fault him for a handicapping but ultimately not bad strategy in this context. In the same sense, scum's greatest disadvantage was --- well it is so obvious I need not even say it, so I won't, because what's done is done. That said, no matter how harmful that disadvantage was, miller Khaos was more than enough to offset that disadvantage so that on balance this game favored scum. I am surprised that town won, even though I knew what needed to happen for the last three DPs...
YYW
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4/23/2017 7:48:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
And of course, it goes without saying:

Many, many thanks to VoT for modding. He continued to do the best he could despite the fact that he had very real conflicts that interfered with his ability to do so. He deserves quite a bit of credit for that.
YYW
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4/23/2017 8:49:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 7:57:56 PM, warren42 wrote:
What should I improve upon and how as scum?

Well, Lucky would be the better person to ask, or FT. Even though they hate each other, both of them have meaningful and worthwhile insights into what it takes to be a successful scum player. I will also say that I'm not good as scum... I have a very hard time lying to and deceiving people, and doing that is exactly what is required of a good scum player.

That said...

I think that what it takes to be a good scum player depends on both your meta, and the dynamic of the game itself, as well as more sophisticated considerations like (1) what other people think your meta is, (2) consistency in terms of how you play, and (3) understanding how other people respond and react to all of those.

You have one overarching goal a scum: kill townies to win the game. That happens by mislynches and night kills. The way to successfully lead a mislynch depends on what the cards on the table look like, and the way to successfully night kill is to not get caught doing it (for example, avoid being tracked). A lot of this involves strategy in terms of misdirecting whoever the town tracker may be, misdirecting any doc who may be in the game so that you succeed, etc. You do those things in the DP, to make it more likely that you're going to have a successful night kill.

You also have to prevent lynching scum, or try to, by all means, prevent that... especially scum power roles. So, you do that by sewing misdirection in the town, causing confusion among the town, etc. while appearing to be useful.

The other thing you have to do is 'appear' pro-town, which is how you avoid getting caught pushing mislynches. Sometimes this means leading from the front (think Bush in Iraq), other times it means leading from behind (think Obama in the Middle East), while other times yet it means being hands off (think Switzerland). It just depends on what the townies are doing. Another thing you can do (in chess we call this a gambit) is do something that actually is pro-town, for the purpose of misdirecting the town. For example, you might bus one of your scum buddies or even lead a lynch on them if they are causing trouble. In the context of Philosophers Mafia, leading a lynch on Wylted would have been an excellent thing to do, in service of this objective. Be cautious with this, though. Killing team mates is rarely the winning strategy. Rarely, indeed.

If you look at what Lucky was doing to Danielle/LikeMagic, that's what good scum do. In that particular case, what Lucky was doing is causing Danielle to reevaluate her initial reads, which he was able to do because her initial reads were wrong, and lucky knew they were wrong which is why he knew that he had an opening to manipulate her. Lucky knows exactly how good a player Dani is and exactly how easy she can be -- if she likes you, as a person -- to lead her by the nose in to doing what he wants her to do. He manipulated her brilliantly. LikeMagic, being Dani's apprentice, followed suit.

Lucky's tricks, however, did not end there. There may even be collateral ways that you can try to get what you want, and Lucky utilizes those as well... even though they were flagrantly obvious when he was trying to do it to me. He has his reasons, and we understand them. Another player whose scum play is quite excellent is Buddamoose. He isn't around much these days, but he's among the best I've ever seen. He seems to have just an inherent knack for being deceptive. That certainly helps.

But, bottom line:

You've got to be able to read the situation and form a coherent strategy for yourself that gets you to the place that you want to be. You've got to anticipate the road blocks, and know how to step around them or out of their way. You've also got to sort of occupy the role of a traffic director, to get other people going where you want them going and then get out of the way once they're there.
Subutai
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4/23/2017 9:12:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Glad to see town won after faltering for four DPs, even though we caught two scum in the first two DPs.

For the record, I was certain Kesc was scum. His behavior seemed categorically scummy, from his bandwagoning off of other's analysis and placing votes accordingly, to popping in and out of the game when it was convenient for him to do so, to posting vacuous analysis in an attempt to appear active. I'm very surprised he turned out to be town.

Even though Lucky got lynched at the end, at least to me, he did a good job, especially given the hand he was dealt at the end of DP2.

On the town side, YYW and Danielle did a good job moving the game forward for town. YYW was being extremely belligerent towards some of the other players, especially Chaos, but he did seem to have a good grasp as to who scum was and what their strategy was.
We are not dead. We have never lived. - Varg Vikernes, "Det som en gang var"
Subutai
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4/23/2017 9:13:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, can anyone tell me what my strategy in NPs should have been as a vig? I was extremely hesitant to use my role for fear of killing a townie, especially since, after DP2, I didn't have any solid scum reads.
We are not dead. We have never lived. - Varg Vikernes, "Det som en gang var"
YYW
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4/23/2017 9:24:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 9:12:10 PM, Subutai wrote:
Glad to see town won after faltering for four DPs, even though we caught two scum in the first two DPs.

For the record, I was certain Kesc was scum. His behavior seemed categorically scummy, from his bandwagoning off of other's analysis and placing votes accordingly, to popping in and out of the game when it was convenient for him to do so, to posting vacuous analysis in an attempt to appear active. I'm very surprised he turned out to be town.

Even though Lucky got lynched at the end, at least to me, he did a good job, especially given the hand he was dealt at the end of DP2.

On the town side, YYW and Danielle did a good job moving the game forward for town. YYW was being extremely belligerent towards some of the other players, especially Chaos, but he did seem to have a good grasp as to who scum was and what their strategy was.

To criticize me in light of the absolute sh!t that Khaos did is not only unfair, it's irrational. He attacked me at every possible turn, and I only attacked him after his psychological meltdown in which he called me every name he could conceive of.
YYW
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4/23/2017 9:24:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 9:12:10 PM, Subutai wrote:
Glad to see town won after faltering for four DPs, even though we caught two scum in the first two DPs.

For the record, I was certain Kesc was scum. His behavior seemed categorically scummy, from his bandwagoning off of other's analysis and placing votes accordingly, to popping in and out of the game when it was convenient for him to do so, to posting vacuous analysis in an attempt to appear active. I'm very surprised he turned out to be town.

Even though Lucky got lynched at the end, at least to me, he did a good job, especially given the hand he was dealt at the end of DP2.

On the town side, YYW and Danielle did a good job moving the game forward for town. YYW was being extremely belligerent towards some of the other players, especially Chaos, but he did seem to have a good grasp as to who scum was and what their strategy was.

To criticize me in light of the absolute sh!t that Khaos did is not only unfair, it's irrational. He attacked me at every possible turn, and I only attacked him after his psychological meltdown in which he called me every name he could conceive of.
YYW
Posts: 44,676
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4/23/2017 9:26:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 9:13:12 PM, Subutai wrote:
Also, can anyone tell me what my strategy in NPs should have been as a vig? I was extremely hesitant to use my role for fear of killing a townie, especially since, after DP2, I didn't have any solid scum reads.

Based on play and the game's dynamic, the move on the board would have been to vig Khaos NP2. Other than that, you made the right decision in not using your night kills when you weren't sure. That would have profoundly affected how the game was played.
FourTrouble
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4/23/2017 9:30:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 9:13:12 PM, Subutai wrote:
Also, can anyone tell me what my strategy in NPs should have been as a vig? I was extremely hesitant to use my role for fear of killing a townie, especially since, after DP2, I didn't have any solid scum reads.

The strength of a vig is to kill people who you think are scum but town has no interest in lynching.

If you're bad at the game, or have no confidence in your reads, probably best not to use the vig.
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Chaos88
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4/23/2017 9:32:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 9:13:12 PM, Subutai wrote:
Also, can anyone tell me what my strategy in NPs should have been as a vig? I was extremely hesitant to use my role for fear of killing a townie, especially since, after DP2, I didn't have any solid scum reads.

Unless you think the miller is town, you can shoot them ;)
In this game, I for sure would have shot inactives. Think of it as saving town a lynch.
Chaos88
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4/23/2017 9:33:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Or if town seem to be in agreement, shoot someone they seem they would otherwise lynch. For example, nearly everyone null or scum reads a player.
warren42
Posts: 4,456
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4/24/2017 12:07:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
@Anyone (except Chaos, because he already told me)

How can I improve as scum?

I also appreciate the feedback from you YYW, but I meant more specifically what did I do wrong? Obviously the fake claim was bad, but aside from that I was still scumread... Why?
LikeMagic
Posts: 2,190
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4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2017 7:38:58 PM, YYW wrote:
This was a lovely game, other than Khaos's failures to play competently as miller despite his very inaccurate post-hoc justifications, the tremendously long night phases, Khaos's belligerency and unethical behavior, Khaos's name calling and specious accusations, Khaos's terrible ability to contribute to the town, Khaos's disasterously inaccurate almost schizophrenic reads, and every other reason Khaos is the scum MVP.

Danielle's attitude was irritating, but she has her moments. Same with LikeMagic. Both should check their egos when playing. Despite LM's bad reads and poor play (e.g., ISOs that lead to the exactly wrong conclusion every single time), she offers some potential as a player in the game. Good activity from LM, and better than Danielle... especially at first, when she was cooperative and gave me her character claim early on. That was critical to town winning the game, and it was exactly the right thing to do.

Khaos's post hoc justifications with respect to why his miller claim -- at the time that he did it -- being pro-town is stupid. His whole theory hinges on the idea that his claim would have revealed the theme to scum, when in reality it would not have because Lucky's rationalle for Miller doesn't make sense if the theme was continential v. british philosophers, as Wittgenstein was not british. Lucky was engaged in misdirection, there. Being skeptical as I was about Lucky's suggestions as to the theme being analytic v. continental (because of my character and Danielle/LM's character), his full claim early on and consistent with Miller SOP would have helped me scum read Lucky earlier, but instead we had to have Khaos's delusional side show which was profoundly harmful to the town. The only way that Khaos's claim would have been revelatory to the theme is if the theme were analytic v. continental, and it was not, it was british v. continental, which he remains too dumb to understand.

What Khaos further fails to understand is that claiming miller to then go un-CCd when there is a cop in the game allows the game's balance to take effect; the fact that it was not, here, was further prejudicial to the town, in ways that Khaos's brain is not equipped to comprehend.

For the record, I had to get Lucky by PoE, but there were other factors that influenced that decision. There is no doubt Kesc was town because of his role and what he did during the entire game, no matter what others have said. The fact that Dani and LM missed the obvious fact that he was town and allowed themselves to be manipulated by Lucky is still surprising to me, but the fact that he was able to do that and nevertheless have Dani believe him is a testament to his ability to play as scum.

(Besides that, for reasons I don't want to go into because of the prejudicial effect it will have on my interests in future games with Lucky, there were numerous things he did which, even if Dani and LM were to ISO read Lucky's posts should have revealed that he was scum. The fact that they both failed to pick up on this tells me that they really don't know what he does and how he does it when he's scum. That's fine though... Lucky is a good player... but he was still had by PoE, which is why they should have narrowed it down, and therefore have no excuse no matter their method of reasoning.)

As far as town goes: I think MHarman offers a lot of potential for the game. He's eager and 'spunky' in terms of a new player, which is good. Being eager to learn and being highly competitive as he is makes him very promising in the future.

As far as Scum goes: Lucky, despite his protests, still played very well; and Warren played better than I expected, he just fell for my trap, which is fair enough. Lucky's activity as viewed day by day, suggests that for DP1, DP2, and DP3 he was really engaged in pro-town activities although things changed after that. He did very well. Warren also is highly promising for reasons similar to MHarman. He's eager and spunky and he wants to learn; is also fairly competitive, which are all good signs.

Scum had many structural advantages, but one major disadvantage was that Lucky was unable to prevent his scum buddies from being lynched DP1 and DP2 (because he didn't read his role PM DP1). Do I blame lucky for this? No. That's his strategy and it obviously served him well because he survived until the very end, and had he not engaged in that strategy he likely would not have survived until the end. So, it would be unreasonable to fault him for a handicapping but ultimately not bad strategy in this context. In the same sense, scum's greatest disadvantage was --- well it is so obvious I need not even say it, so I won't, because what's done is done. That said, no matter how harmful that disadvantage was, miller Khaos was more than enough to offset that disadvantage so that on balance this game favored scum. I am surprised that town won, even though I knew what needed to happen for the last three DPs...

lol
YYW
Posts: 44,676
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4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

Well, if you both were better and less catty players, the game would have gone a lot better.

Especially there at the end. Not only were both of you profoundly and inexcusably wrong, but your ISO's were utterly incompetent while in the same instance you were both making such a show about how woefully terrible I was.

I was laughing at both of you the whole time... let this be a lesson in humility.

Literally, all I needed was for you to cooperate, and you didn't even do that.
LikeMagic
Posts: 2,190
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4/24/2017 1:37:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

Well, if you both were better and less catty players, the game would have gone a lot better.

Especially there at the end. Not only were both of you profoundly and inexcusably wrong, but your ISO's were utterly incompetent while in the same instance you were both making such a show about how woefully terrible I was.

I was laughing at both of you the whole time... let this be a lesson in humility.

Literally, all I needed was for you to cooperate, and you didn't even do that.

You're a super funny dude. Thank you for the laughs.
YYW
Posts: 44,676
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4/24/2017 1:39:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:37:47 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

Well, if you both were better and less catty players, the game would have gone a lot better.

Especially there at the end. Not only were both of you profoundly and inexcusably wrong, but your ISO's were utterly incompetent while in the same instance you were both making such a show about how woefully terrible I was.

I was laughing at both of you the whole time... let this be a lesson in humility.

Literally, all I needed was for you to cooperate, and you didn't even do that.

You're a super funny dude. Thank you for the laughs.

Great ISO's, LM. You def. had the right scum... for all the right reasons...

I am serious. If you could just chill out you'd be a fine player, but your ego is outrageously too large and so is Dani's in terms of her ability to play this game.
LikeMagic
Posts: 2,190
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4/24/2017 1:40:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:39:12 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:37:47 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

You're a super funny dude. Thank you for the laughs.

Great ISO's, LM. You def. had the right scum... for all the right reasons...

I am serious. If you could just chill out you'd be a fine player, but your ego is outrageously too large and so is Dani's in terms of her ability to play this game.

lmao. good one
YYW
Posts: 44,676
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4/24/2017 1:41:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:40:13 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:39:12 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:37:47 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

You're a super funny dude. Thank you for the laughs.

Great ISO's, LM. You def. had the right scum... for all the right reasons...

I am serious. If you could just chill out you'd be a fine player, but your ego is outrageously too large and so is Dani's in terms of her ability to play this game.

lmao. good one

Well, I guess after being so bad and so wrong for literally the lion's share of the game... this is going to take some time to come to terms with.
LikeMagic
Posts: 2,190
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4/24/2017 1:43:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:41:20 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:40:13 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:39:12 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:37:47 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

You're a super funny dude. Thank you for the laughs.

Great ISO's, LM. You def. had the right scum... for all the right reasons...

I am serious. If you could just chill out you'd be a fine player, but your ego is outrageously too large and so is Dani's in terms of her ability to play this game.

lmao. good one

Well, I guess after being so bad and so wrong for literally the lion's share of the game... this is going to take some time to come to terms with.

Seriously, super hilarious. You have me in stitches. I love it.
Never change dude. Never change.
YYW
Posts: 44,676
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4/24/2017 1:45:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:43:09 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:41:20 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:40:13 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:39:12 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:37:47 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

You're a super funny dude. Thank you for the laughs.

Great ISO's, LM. You def. had the right scum... for all the right reasons...

I am serious. If you could just chill out you'd be a fine player, but your ego is outrageously too large and so is Dani's in terms of her ability to play this game.

lmao. good one

Well, I guess after being so bad and so wrong for literally the lion's share of the game... this is going to take some time to come to terms with.

Seriously, super hilarious. You have me in stitches. I love it.
Never change dude. Never change.

The main difference between you and I is that unlike you, if I was wrong I would have admitted it. As it turned out, I was not wrong -- which I knew -- and you and Dani were -- which I also knew -- and you both had the audacity to act as if you were better, more able, more competent, blah blah blah ...when you were being spoonfed bullsh!t by lucky who manipulated both of you with outstanding efficacy.

You got snowed, LM. You should own it, learn from it, and move on.
LikeMagic
Posts: 2,190
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4/24/2017 1:47:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/24/2017 1:45:10 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:43:09 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:41:20 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:40:13 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:39:12 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:37:47 AM, LikeMagic wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:36:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 4/24/2017 1:34:16 AM, LikeMagic wrote:

You're a super funny dude. Thank you for the laughs.

Great ISO's, LM. You def. had the right scum... for all the right reasons...

I am serious. If you could just chill out you'd be a fine player, but your ego is outrageously too large and so is Dani's in terms of her ability to play this game.

lmao. good one

Well, I guess after being so bad and so wrong for literally the lion's share of the game... this is going to take some time to come to terms with.

Seriously, super hilarious. You have me in stitches. I love it.
Never change dude. Never change.

The main difference between you and I is that unlike you, if I was wrong I would have admitted it. As it turned out, I was not wrong -- which I knew -- and you and Dani were -- which I also knew -- and you both had the audacity to act as if you were better, more able, more competent, blah blah blah ...when you were being spoonfed bullsh!t by lucky who manipulated both of you with outstanding efficacy.

You got snowed, LM. You should own it, learn from it, and move on.

Bahahaha. This is so good. keep 'em comin'