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How to have a Rational Conversation

3RU7AL
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5/19/2017 5:33:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is the Table Metaphor for a Rational Conversation. (TMFRC)

Imagine if you will, two people in a room.

They both bring with them a table with some number of legs.

The first person says, here's my table, it has six legs, please let me know if you see any problems.

The second person says, here's my table, it has nine legs, please let me know if you see any problems.

The two people then examine the tables and if there's a structural problem with one of the legs, they point out the problem and give the other a chance to modify or repair the flaws.

If a leg is fundamentally flawed it must be removed from that table.

If either table has fewer than three legs, it can no longer function as a table and that person will have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a (possibly similar) but better table.

Perhaps both tables will stand, and perhaps both tables will fall.

However, if one table stands and the other falls, there is absolutely no obligation for the person with the fallen table to adopt the design of the table that didn't fall.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, imagine that one of the two people decides to employ an argumentum ad ignorantiam. - https://en.wikipedia.org...

Person (a) says, here's my table and it has seven legs.

Person (b) says, I don't like any of those legs because they look strange (ad hominem).

Person (a) says, perhaps they look a little strange to you, but they do a perfectly good job of holding up my table, can you please explain, if you believe they don't support my table, what specific -structural-problem- can you identify?

Person (b) refuses to answer this question and instead says, my table is better and therefore your table is wrong (bald assertion, argumentum ad lapidem, false dichotomy).

Person (a) says, what table are you talking about, you haven't shown me your table. AND more to the point, even if your table is "perfect" it does not make my table "wrong". You still need to explain any structural flaws you are able to identify.

Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).

Person (a) says, that's not really how this works. You have to show me your table.

Person (b) says, my table is round and has like nine million legs (bald assertion).

Person (a) says, can you be a little more specific?

Person (b) says, YOU CAN'T PROVE MY TABLE IS WRONG (argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Person (a) says, what table are you talking about? It is obviously impossible for me to point out structural flaws in a table that either doesn't exist or that you refuse to show to me or that you only explain in ridiculously vague terms.

Person (b) says, I can't be bothered to show you my table because you could never understand it (ad hominem, argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Person (a) says, if you can't (or won't) show me your table and at least three legs, I think this conversation is over.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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5/22/2017 12:48:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/22/2017 5:53:38 AM, Perussi wrote:
This cartoonist is.... (couldn't think of a good adjective, was thinking along the lines of genius)): http://theoatmeal.com...

This was way more insightful than I expected. Thanks for the link!
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
Perussi
Posts: 3,687
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5/22/2017 2:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/22/2017 12:48:46 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 5/22/2017 5:53:38 AM, Perussi wrote:
This cartoonist is.... (couldn't think of a good adjective, was thinking along the lines of genius)): http://theoatmeal.com...

This was way more insightful than I expected. Thanks for the link!

Yeah, this guy is pretty legit.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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5/25/2017 11:33:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A even better way to have a rational conversation is to NOT carry a six legged table around with you. It is certainly an interesting and different way to break the ice, but as a prelude to intelligent discourse, lugging a snooker table everywhere doesn't really work, especially as rational people much prefer discussing wall coverings to furniture.
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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5/25/2017 1:40:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2017 11:33:26 AM, keithprosser wrote:
A even better way to have a rational conversation is to NOT carry a six legged table around with you. It is certainly an interesting and different way to break the ice, but as a prelude to intelligent discourse, lugging a snooker table everywhere doesn't really work, especially as rational people much prefer discussing wall coverings to furniture.

Ok, ok, I take your point, however, I think people should have some clue how to assemble a positive statement with logical support. It's really not that complicated.

I've found that I can't seem to get anybody to tell me, in simple straightforward (positive) terms, what they believe and why they might believe it.

It seems to be an almost endless stream of half-baked obfuscation tactics.

This one detail is FALSE therefore (non sequitur) is TRUE!

You can't prove every conceivable (vaguely defined) variation of my position is FALSE therefore my (still undefined) position is TRUE.

And of course, The Guessing Game: Don't stereotype my position, what you're saying isn't what I believe. ...crickets... Really? Are you totally incapable of explaining your position or are you going to make me keep guessing until you stop saying "WRong!!"
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
ebuc
Posts: 2,915
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5/28/2017 2:30:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/19/2017 5:33:14 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
This is the Table Metaphor for a Rational Conversation. (TMFRC):

Table of polyhedra;

1} five and only five regular/symmetrical polyhedra cand exist everywhere{ no exceptions } and everywhen{ eternal } ergo an absolute truth or principle,

2} all other possible polyhedra that exist that are the above ergo inherent absolute truth/principle deduced from #1 above.

3-fold tetra{4}ehedron has 6 legs as an integral, systemic and structural/ stable integrity,
4-fold octa{8{hedron has 12 legs as an integral, systemic and structural stable integrity,
5-fold icosa{20}hedron has 30 legs as an integral, systemic and structural stable integrity,
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4-fold cube ak ahexa(6}hedron has 12 legs as integral, systemic and non-structural integrity,

5-fold penta{5}gonal dodeca{12}hedron has 20 legs as an integral, systemic and non-structural integrity.

A 1D, abstract line as leg is inherently not a pattern or pattern integrity.

A set of two abstract lines, as legs, are inherently not a pattern that encloses an area and ergo not a polygon pattern integrity.

A set of of three lines as legs sharing a common node/point/vertex ex Y are not a polygonal pattern integrity that encloses area ergo not a structural integrity.

A set of three lines, as three legs, as a closed triangular set ex /\ is a structurally stable pattern integrity and the minimal such pattern that encloses area.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A womans leg is inherently more complex than a mans leg because it contains cells that have Xx chromosomes and mans leg cells only contain less complex Xy set of chromosomes.

Xx is more complex than Xy purely because number of bits of informations i.e. there is mathematically more lines-of-relationship in Xx set than there is in Xy set.

Again, purely is refering to mathamatical aspect only,

If we get into the synegistic aspect of resultants of Xx or Xy then a differrent set of complexities come into play and to arrive at the mathematics will not every happen.

We know that one woman + one man can synergistically prouduce various quanties of off-spring.

Using only mathematics lines ergo legs, we know of only one way to have synergistic resultant and this taking a set of two sperate 2D closed triangles, opening them, twist/torque them and recombine them as a 3D polyhedron ergo we have,

12D triangle{ 3 legs } + 1 2D triangle{ 3 } legs that synergistcially create the 3D tetra{4}hedron with 4 of the same size triangles i.e. a mathematical representation of of when 1 + 1 = 4.
http://www.rwgrayprojects.com...

And/or we can present this as 3 angles{ view-points } + 3 angles{ viewpoints } = 12 surface angles{ viewpoints/vertexes } of tetrahedron.

ebuc
" U "niverse > Universe > Universe I -verse < you-verse we-verse > them-verse
Gravitational SPACE ( + )
Dark Energy SPACE )-(
Time >66.4< --frequency ^v^v
Mind/Intellect 12--3-fold 4-fold and 5-fold
Biological *8* --bilateral four's
Spin <left 6 right >---Pitch, Yaw Roll{ 3 * 2 = 6 }
IS >2<--positive and negative tetrhaedron
ebuc
Posts: 2,915
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5/29/2017 12:57:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The minimal tensegrity table has three legs and it also has cables. How irrational is that? Does this make the table a rational, or irrational talking piece?

https://www.google.com...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://hiveminer.com...

A friend of mine told me of a contest in his town, where some students drop an egg from 5 story building without breaking it, So there were various ways people attempted and some worked and only two worked.

He was most enamored with a tensegrity structure with the egg tied or taped to the inside at nuclear center, and when it dropped he said that it almost floated as the wind kind of buffeted this way and that.

It may have been made with fishing line as this very light weight. I suppose fiberglass or aluminum struts/tubes would also be lightweight.

Oh yeah, I recall now that the other one that worked was egg in tube surround by foam and was parachuted to ground.

Is one way more rational, than another. There is often more than one rational pathway to truth or to a common resultant.

Ego is often times the main hurdle, i.e. mental blockages to truth, irrespective of the rational pathways to arrive at truth.

However, in some cases there there may only exist one rational pathway to truth or any desired resultant.

ebuc
" U "niverse > Universe > Universe I -verse < you-verse we-verse > them-verse
Gravitational SPACE ( + )
Dark Energy SPACE )-(
Time >66.4< --frequency ^v^v
Mind/Intellect 12--3-fold 4-fold and 5-fold
Biological *8* --bilateral four's
Spin <left 6 right >---Pitch, Yaw Roll{ 3 * 2 = 6 }
IS >2<--positive and negative tetrhaedron
Sui_Generis
Posts: 4,650
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5/31/2017 7:43:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/19/2017 5:33:14 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
What was the point of this? Seems like intellectual masturbation.
"How true it is that words are but vague shadows of the volumes we mean. Little audible links they are, chaining together great inaudible feelings and purposes."

"Nobody wants to be in your sig." ~Emilrose
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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5/31/2017 2:01:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/31/2017 7:43:46 AM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 5/19/2017 5:33:14 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
What was the point of this? Seems like intellectual masturbation.

I'm trying to use a "common sense" metaphor to explain how to have a rational conversation.

Without some common framework, communication is impossible.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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5/31/2017 2:21:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The simple snswer is to find someone who wants to have - and is capable of - a rational conversation with you. There is no trick that will turn a loonie into a rational conversationalist - or if there is, I don't know it!
ebuc
Posts: 2,915
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7/1/2017 5:37:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.designboom.com...

Then there are also tables with no legs. Fullers 1928 floating table used cables held in tension to stabilize the hanging table.

rational > logical > common sense can be inside-outed, mirror-imaged and reversed{ chirality } and maintain its integrity.

r6
" U "niverse > Universe > Universe I -verse < you-verse we-verse > them-verse
Gravitational SPACE ( + )
Dark Energy SPACE )-(
Time >66.4< --frequency ^v^v
Mind/Intellect 12--3-fold 4-fold and 5-fold
Biological *8* --bilateral four's
Spin <left 6 right >---Pitch, Yaw Roll{ 3 * 2 = 6 }
IS >2<--positive and negative tetrhaedron
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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2/9/2018 5:38:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/25/2017 11:33:26 AM, keithprosser wrote:
A even better way to have a rational conversation is to NOT carry a six legged table around with you. It is certainly an interesting and different way to break the ice, but as a prelude to intelligent discourse, lugging a snooker table everywhere doesn't really work, especially as rational people much prefer discussing wall coverings to furniture.

Good point.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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2/13/2018 2:55:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/31/2017 2:21:57 PM, keithprosser wrote:
The simple snswer is to find someone who wants to have - and is capable of - a rational conversation with you. There is no trick that will turn a loonie into a rational conversationalist - or if there is, I don't know it!

I think people should have some clue how to assemble a positive statement with logical support.

It's really not that complicated.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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3/16/2018 9:14:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Both sides should be able to make positive statements and provide logical support.

This is basic.

If you constantly attack without making any positive statements and refuse to clarify your criticisms when paraphrased (Nuh-uh that's not what I said, go back and read the words and prove it, you can't prove me wrong!) you are hiding behind the massive and very blurry wall known as the ambiguity fallacy. These individuals may or may not have a coherent position (as they usually claim in vague terms and bald assertions), but regardless, inexplicably refuse to communicate. They mistakenly believe that the darkness gives them the benefit of the doubt. However, based on epistemological standards of evidence, they do not have the benefit of the doubt. You must show your logic, because without evidence to the contrary, your position is logically incoherent. I like to call these creatures the "Gingerbread Men".
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
Phase
Posts: 252
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3/21/2018 4:35:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/19/2017 5:33:14 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
This is the Table Metaphor for a Rational Conversation. (TMFRC)

Imagine if you will, two people in a room.

They both bring with them a table with some number of legs.

The first person says, here's my table, it has six legs, please let me know if you see any problems.

The second person says, here's my table, it has nine legs, please let me know if you see any problems.

The two people then examine the tables and if there's a structural problem with one of the legs, they point out the problem and give the other a chance to modify or repair the flaws.

If a leg is fundamentally flawed it must be removed from that table.

If either table has fewer than three legs, it can no longer function as a table and that person will have to go back to the drawing board and come up with a (possibly similar) but better table.

Perhaps both tables will stand, and perhaps both tables will fall.

However, if one table stands and the other falls, there is absolutely no obligation for the person with the fallen table to adopt the design of the table that didn't fall.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However, imagine that one of the two people decides to employ an argumentum ad ignorantiam. - https://en.wikipedia.org...

Person (a) says, here's my table and it has seven legs.

Person (b) says, I don't like any of those legs because they look strange (ad hominem).

Person (a) says, perhaps they look a little strange to you, but they do a perfectly good job of holding up my table, can you please explain, if you believe they don't support my table, what specific -structural-problem- can you identify?

Person (b) refuses to answer this question and instead says, my table is better and therefore your table is wrong (bald assertion, argumentum ad lapidem, false dichotomy).

Person (a) says, what table are you talking about, you haven't shown me your table. AND more to the point, even if your table is "perfect" it does not make my table "wrong". You still need to explain any structural flaws you are able to identify.

Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).

Person (a) says, that's not really how this works. You have to show me your table.

Person (b) says, my table is round and has like nine million legs (bald assertion).

Person (a) says, can you be a little more specific?

Person (b) says, YOU CAN'T PROVE MY TABLE IS WRONG (argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Person (a) says, what table are you talking about? It is obviously impossible for me to point out structural flaws in a table that either doesn't exist or that you refuse to show to me or that you only explain in ridiculously vague terms.

Person (b) says, I can't be bothered to show you my table because you could never understand it (ad hominem, argumentum ad ignorantiam).

Person (a) says, if you can't (or won't) show me your table and at least three legs, I think this conversation is over.

Thanks. I found this helpful.
3RU7AL
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3/21/2018 6:45:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 3/21/2018 4:35:24 AM, Phase wrote:
At 5/19/2017 5:33:14 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
This is the Table Metaphor for a Rational Conversation. (TMFRC)
Person (b) says, well, it's difficult to describe my table but it is waaaay better than yours, so yours is wrong. I saw a table like your once and it was so dangerous it fell over and killed a bunch of people and made babies cry. (false dichotomy, emotional appeal, bald assertion, strawman, affirming the consequent, and argumentum ad baculum).

Thanks. I found this helpful.

No problem. Let me know if you have any questions or critiques.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
chanyuan
Posts: 149
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6/21/2018 2:06:28 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
chanyuan2018.06.21
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