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Choosing is a mental process not a right.

antrise
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5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The ability to choose is a mental process and mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces. Therefore the ability to choose can never be a right.
Using moronic catch phrases such as "right to choose" only serves to degrade society, and are an insult to the general public.
sdavio
Posts: 2,085
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5/8/2018 10:24:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces.

This is not true even under your idiosyncratic framing of it. The state would be interfering with the thought process of a woman, who prefers or intends to abort, by forcing her not to.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/9/2018 2:59:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
The ability to choose is a mental process and mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces. Therefore the ability to choose can never be a right.
Using moronic catch phrases such as "right to choose" only serves to degrade society, and are an insult to the general public.

I disagree. In fact I dare say every detectable external force affects your mental processes.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 3:08:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Back when I was religious, I think one of the problems that bothered me was what was a persons soul. I really didn't see how any soul could be incorruptible, if an outside force brought the right force or circumstance upon it, there was nothing that could save it, and in the end I did not see it as rational to trust god to safeguard a person even if they had absolute faith and devotion in him. Although I suppose I have never tested it in reality.

Even if we think of the soul as our brain, thoughts, and experiences... A hammer to the head can change those easily enough, disbarring it killing a person of course. Even a persons "soul" is not equitably their untouchable own. Unless yeah, someone had a different definition of soul, which I'm sure some people do.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/9/2018 3:22:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 3:08:33 AM, Leaning wrote:
Back when I was religious, I think one of the problems that bothered me was what was a persons soul. I really didn't see how any soul could be incorruptible, if an outside force brought the right force or circumstance upon it, there was nothing that could save it, and in the end I did not see it as rational to trust god to safeguard a person even if they had absolute faith and devotion in him. Although I suppose I have never tested it in reality.

Even if we think of the soul as our brain, thoughts, and experiences... A hammer to the head can change those easily enough, disbarring it killing a person of course. Even a persons "soul" is not equitably their untouchable own. Unless yeah, someone had a different definition of soul, which I'm sure some people do.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

I am unsure what soul even means when used in this context. I have never observed a "soul" or a "spirit". I know what brain function is though. That can be measured to a certain degree.

Fascinating case by the way.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 3:25:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I was thinking some after, about the "soul" as electricity and the material body and world as conductors for it or something.... Something about neurons.... Energy is still material though, isn't it in a way?
SecularMerlin
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5/9/2018 3:30:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 3:25:34 AM, Leaning wrote:
I was thinking some after, about the "soul" as electricity and the material body and world as conductors for it or something.... Something about neurons.... Energy is still material though, isn't it in a way?

Energy is part of the physical universe. Even pure electromagnetism such as light or xrays is composed of tiny energy packets that behave like particles and waves.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 3:41:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hmm.... Even if an afterlife existed, I don't see how we could be aware of it unless someone could come back from it. And if they could come back from it, how is that really any different than an alternate dimension? Which to me is just another way of saying still part of existence, just harder to get to, like death being a giant mountain or sea in between this part of existence and that part.

But yeah, if something could effect this existence it would have to use energy in some form I would think. But I'm not a scientist, and maybe one has a crazy hard to understand science explanation.
SecularMerlin
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5/9/2018 4:07:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 3:41:29 AM, Leaning wrote:
Hmm.... Even if an afterlife existed, I don't see how we could be aware of it unless someone could come back from it. And if they could come back from it, how is that really any different than an alternate dimension? Which to me is just another way of saying still part of existence, just harder to get to, like death being a giant mountain or sea in between this part of existence and that part.

But yeah, if something could effect this existence it would have to use energy in some form I would think. But I'm not a scientist, and maybe one has a crazy hard to understand science explanation.

There is no sufficient evidence to support any afterlife hypothesis and I'm not sure how we would go about testing such a hypothesis anyway.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 4:23:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
My mother is rather fond of near death experience books. I think she has one by a neurosurgeon and another by a person interviewing people who have had such, or maybe the book is by the same guy.
antrise
Posts: 107
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5/9/2018 5:44:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 2:59:40 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
The ability to choose is a mental process and mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces. Therefore the ability to choose can never be a right.
Using moronic catch phrases such as "right to choose" only serves to degrade society, and are an insult to the general public.

I disagree. In fact I dare say every detectable external force affects your mental processes.

I did not say anything about anything affecting anything.
I said mental processes can not be controlled by external forces. That is not an opinion. I am merely stating a basic fact about human physiology.
"control" and "affect" are two different words with two different meanings.
The point of post is how hateful nihilistic catch phrases such "right to choose' or "the final solution" affect society.
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 5:53:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Pretty sure brainwashing is a form of mental control. I'm unsure where or what you mean by the phrase "Right to choose". Or how "The final Solution" connects to all this. Although I think by "Final Solution" you mean extremists like the Nazis. Is it really a common saying nowadays?
antrise
Posts: 107
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5/9/2018 5:57:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/8/2018 10:24:54 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces.

This is not true even under your idiosyncratic framing of it. The state would be interfering with the thought process of a woman, who prefers or intends to abort, by forcing her not to.
Interfering how?
How do you force anyone to have any thought processes?
With what and how?
I know of no device that can force anyone to think anything.
If so, why don't you just force everyone to think of you as their supreme overlord. and rule the world with an iron fist?
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 6:04:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Peer pressure does not physically "force" people to take drugs or to "force" them think taking drugs is okay. Yet I am sure that many people's thought process is influenced by peer pressure or an environment where taking drugs is smiled upon. Is it not the purpose of propaganda to move a persons thought in one direction or another?
antrise
Posts: 107
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5/9/2018 6:32:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 1:36:33 AM, Leaning wrote:
I have to admit I have trouble understanding the phrasing and meaning of post 1

I am saying catch phrases like "the final solution" and right to choose" denigrate society and are an insult to humanity.

I am saying choosing is mental process and not a right.

Mental processes like choosing are what is known as thinking.
Any living thinking human is always free to think whatever they want to to think.
Only acting on thoughts can be controlled, what thoughts are made cane never be controlled.
Take freedom of religion for example.
I can think about god all i want always, and i can think anything i want to about god always. No external forces can prevent me or anyone else from doing that. Because thinking about god is a mental process and not an action.
Attending church on the other hand can be controlled by external forces, because attending church is an action and not a mental process.
So, while the phrase "right to abortion", although debatable, has logical meaning, because abortion is an action and not a mental process.
The phrase "right to choose" is illogical. Because the ability to choose is a mental process and not an action.
antrise
Posts: 107
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5/9/2018 6:57:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 5:53:12 AM, Leaning wrote:
Pretty sure brainwashing is a form of mental control. I'm unsure where or what you mean by the phrase "Right to choose". Or how "The final Solution" connects to all this. Although I think by "Final Solution" you mean extremists like the Nazis. Is it really a common saying nowadays?

Every individual brain is a self contained unit that functions completely of its own accord within the individual .
Nothing in the known universe is capable of forcing anyone to think anything.
Brainwashing refers to influencing thoughts. Nothing can control thoughts.
The catch phrase "right to choose" being repeated ad nauseam is a good example of brainwashing. Because most humans like having rights even though they seem to fail to grasp what rights are. And most humans dislike abortion though the seem to fail to grasp what abortion is. So using the word "right" although irrelevant and omitting the word abortion although relevant to their war cry, is like putting lipstick on a pig.
antrise
Posts: 107
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5/9/2018 7:07:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 6:41:52 AM, Leaning wrote:
So you would prefer they say they have a right of action?

America was founded on basic principle of the equally inherent human rights.
America than established a government and a constitution to protect their equally inherent human rights.
I would prefer they say they have the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Freedom of speech is protected though, so even traitors are free to say basically whatever they want.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/9/2018 12:50:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 5:44:46 AM, antrise wrote:
At 5/9/2018 2:59:40 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
The ability to choose is a mental process and mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces. Therefore the ability to choose can never be a right.
Using moronic catch phrases such as "right to choose" only serves to degrade society, and are an insult to the general public.

I disagree. In fact I dare say every detectable external force affects your mental processes.

I did not say anything about anything affecting anything.
I said mental processes can not be controlled by external forces. That is not an opinion. I am merely stating a basic fact about human physiology.
"control" and "affect" are two different words with two different meanings.
The point of post is how hateful nihilistic catch phrases such "right to choose' or "the final solution" affect society.

Your mental processes are actually a process of neurochemical reactions and the firing if neural pathways. Many are in direct response to, and would not happen without, external stimuli. The distinction you are making may be so fine a line as to be meaningless. I'm not sure what catchphrase have to do with it.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/9/2018 12:54:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 4:23:30 AM, Leaning wrote:
My mother is rather fond of near death experience books. I think she has one by a neurosurgeon and another by a person interviewing people who have had such, or maybe the book is by the same guy.

https://www.scientificamerican.com...
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/9/2018 1:05:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 5:57:31 AM, antrise wrote:
At 5/8/2018 10:24:54 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces.

This is not true even under your idiosyncratic framing of it. The state would be interfering with the thought process of a woman, who prefers or intends to abort, by forcing her not to.
Interfering how?
How do you force anyone to have any thought processes?

By introducing a new idea. The individual must then have a thought process to evaluate the new information.

With what and how?
I know of no device that can force anyone to think anything.

Any new experience can force a thought process, although not a specific one. For example when presented with two options you are rather "forced" to choose between them.

If so, why don't you just force everyone to think of you as their supreme overlord. and rule the world with an iron fist?

That sounds tyrannical. Even if you possessed this ability you should never do so.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
difference
Posts: 446
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5/9/2018 2:02:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
The ability to choose is a mental process and mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces. Therefore the ability to choose can never be a right.
Using moronic catch phrases such as "right to choose" only serves to degrade society, and are an insult to the general public.

Is that the meaning of the phrase?
sdavio
Posts: 2,085
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5/9/2018 2:31:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 5:57:31 AM, antrise wrote:
At 5/8/2018 10:24:54 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 5/7/2018 10:02:52 PM, antrise wrote:
mental processes cannot be controlled by external forces.

This is not true even under your idiosyncratic framing of it. The state would be interfering with the thought process of a woman, who prefers or intends to abort, by forcing her not to.
Interfering how?
How do you force anyone to have any thought processes?
With what and how?
I know of no device that can force anyone to think anything.
If so, why don't you just force everyone to think of you as their supreme overlord. and rule the world with an iron fist?

Interferences can also interfere with that person's thought process. If you were writing a book, and someone prevented you from doing that, it would remove that project from your life - your thoughts would be different moving forward. It literally interferes with your thought process.
sdavio
Posts: 2,085
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5/9/2018 2:33:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 5:57:31 AM, antrise wrote:
I know of no device that can force anyone to think anything.

And what about psychoactive drugs?
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 6:39:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
https://www.scientificamerican.com...

I haven't read it myself or her other book. Hmm, is there such a thing as flawed or partial evidence? Even if not, I find it hard to blame other people for finding an argument for their position convincing. Even if it could be better.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/9/2018 6:54:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2018 6:39:58 PM, Leaning wrote:
https://www.scientificamerican.com...

I haven't read it myself or her other book. Hmm, is there such a thing as flawed or partial evidence? Even if not, I find it hard to blame other people for finding an argument for their position convincing. Even if it could be better.

They have the right to believe anything. They even have the right to believe things that are demonstrably incorrect as opposed to simply unverifiable. That does not make them right.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Leaning
Posts: 2,798
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5/9/2018 7:00:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Some proofs are more incorrect than others. Or less appealing to the human mind. My mind is honestly biased toward nihilism and materialism these days. I would find it painful/boring to search for truth in religion honestly.
I might try to read the bible again someday, but it would be for me more learning bout what other people believed, history. I suspect the bible and religions do have more to offer than a number of atheists say, but I currently don't care enough to check.

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