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Defenders of Free Will, Where Am I Wrong?

 Posts: 135 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 5/11/2013 9:14:51 AMPosted: 7 years ago1. Imagine some free choice between possibilities X and Y made by decider A.2. Assume that A has freedom of the will and is free to choose either X or Y."3. Because X and Y are both possibilities, there must exist possible worlds in which X is chosen,W1, and possible worlds in which Y is chosen, W2."4. But, if A in all W1s could really freely choose, she could choose Y.5. If A in all W1s could choose Y, this would mean that there could arise a situation in which Y was chosen in all possible worlds."6. Y could not be chosen in all possible worlds.C1. Therefore, A does not really have a free choice in W1s.And if A in all W2s could really freely choose, she could choose X.If A in all W2s choose X, then a situation could arise in which X had been chosen in all possible worlds.X could not have been chosen in all possible worlds.C2. Therefore, A does not really have a free choice in W2s.C3. Therefore, A does not have a free choice in any possible world.Because A could represent any person with a deciding opportunity and X and Y or (X, Y, Z...number of possible outcomes) could represent any possibilities for any decision of A, this encompases all decisions, meaning that no A has a free choice regarding any decision..So, defenders of free will, where am I going wrong?
 Posts: 11,196 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 5/11/2013 9:20:33 AMPosted: 7 years ago"But, if A in all W1s could really freely choose, she could choose Y"You just stated that W1 was the world which arose from the choice of X. So this is not the world in which the decision occurs. Rather, this is not the world in which both choices are even available."A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
 Posts: 135 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 5/11/2013 9:40:08 AMPosted: 7 years agoAt 5/11/2013 9:20:33 AM, 000ike wrote:"But, if A in all W1s could really freely choose, she could choose Y"You just stated that W1 was the world which arose from the choice of X. So this is not the world in which the decision occurs.If the decision does not occur in W1, by the same logic, the decision does not occur in W2, meaning that there is no possible world in which the decision occurs.Rather, this is not the world in which both choices are even available.This is basically my point. In both W1 and W2, only one option is possible, so how can it be said that A has a free choice between the options in any world?
 Posts: 6,924 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 5/11/2013 10:33:39 AMPosted: 7 years agoAt 5/11/2013 9:14:51 AM, Magicr wrote:1. Imagine some free choice between possibilities X and Y made by decider A.2. Assume that A has freedom of the will and is free to choose either X or Y."3. Because X and Y are both possibilities, there must exist possible worlds in which X is chosen,W1, and possible worlds in which Y is chosen, W2."4. But, if A in all W1s could really freely choose, she could choose Y.5. If A in all W1s could choose Y, this would mean that there could arise a situation in which Y was chosen in all possible worlds."6. Y could not be chosen in all possible worlds.C1. Therefore, A does not really have a free choice in W1s.And if A in all W2s could really freely choose, she could choose X.If A in all W2s choose X, then a situation could arise in which X had been chosen in all possible worlds.X could not have been chosen in all possible worlds.C2. Therefore, A does not really have a free choice in W2s.C3. Therefore, A does not have a free choice in any possible world.Because A could represent any person with a deciding opportunity and X and Y or (X, Y, Z...number of possible outcomes) could represent any possibilities for any decision of A, this encompases all decisions, meaning that no A has a free choice regarding any decision..So, defenders of free will, where am I going wrong?Um...you do know that "possible worlds" don't actually "exist" out there in the propositional aether, right?This would only apply if you were talking about multi-verses.
 Posts: 11,196 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 5/11/2013 10:37:48 AMPosted: 7 years agoAt 5/11/2013 9:40:08 AM, Magicr wrote:At 5/11/2013 9:20:33 AM, 000ike wrote:"But, if A in all W1s could really freely choose, she could choose Y"You just stated that W1 was the world which arose from the choice of X. So this is not the world in which the decision occurs.If the decision does not occur in W1, by the same logic, the decision does not occur in W2, meaning that there is no possible world in which the decision occurs.Rather, this is not the world in which both choices are even available.This is basically my point. In both W1 and W2, only one option is possible, so how can it be said that A has a free choice between the options in any world?That's not right though. Freewill does not mean the ability to do anything imaginable. Freewill is ability to choose among a set of choices. What you created was a possible world in which one choice was made, and hence the others became unavailable."A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
 Posts: 135 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 5/11/2013 11:19:23 AMPosted: 7 years agoAt 5/11/2013 10:33:39 AM, Wnope wrote:At 5/11/2013 9:14:51 AM, Magicr wrote:1. Imagine some free choice between possibilities X and Y made by decider A.2. Assume that A has freedom of the will and is free to choose either X or Y."3. Because X and Y are both possibilities, there must exist possible worlds in which X is chosen,W1, and possible worlds in which Y is chosen, W2."4. But, if A in all W1s could really freely choose, she could choose Y.5. If A in all W1s could choose Y, this would mean that there could arise a situation in which Y was chosen in all possible worlds."6. Y could not be chosen in all possible worlds.C1. Therefore, A does not really have a free choice in W1s.And if A in all W2s could really freely choose, she could choose X.If A in all W2s choose X, then a situation could arise in which X had been chosen in all possible worlds.X could not have been chosen in all possible worlds.C2. Therefore, A does not really have a free choice in W2s.C3. Therefore, A does not have a free choice in any possible world.Because A could represent any person with a deciding opportunity and X and Y or (X, Y, Z...number of possible outcomes) could represent any possibilities for any decision of A, this encompases all decisions, meaning that no A has a free choice regarding any decision..So, defenders of free will, where am I going wrong?Um...you do know that "possible worlds" don't actually "exist" out there in the propositional aether, right?This would only apply if you were talking about multi-verses.I realize that possible worlds are a philosophical construct, but I don't see how that fact changes the effectiveness of the argument. Because the actual world is a possible word, if A makes a choice between X and Y in the actual world, then the actual world becomes either a W1 or a W2.
 Posts: 135 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 5/11/2013 11:33:24 AMPosted: 7 years agoAt 5/11/2013 10:37:48 AM, 000ike wrote:At 5/11/2013 9:40:08 AM, Magicr wrote:At 5/11/2013 9:20:33 AM, 000ike wrote:"But, if A in all W1s could really freely choose, she could choose Y"You just stated that W1 was the world which arose from the choice of X. So this is not the world in which the decision occurs.If the decision does not occur in W1, by the same logic, the decision does not occur in W2, meaning that there is no possible world in which the decision occurs.Rather, this is not the world in which both choices are even available.This is basically my point. In both W1 and W2, only one option is possible, so how can it be said that A has a free choice between the options in any world?That's not right though. Freewill does not mean the ability to do anything imaginable. Freewill is ability to choose among a set of choices.I agree: freewill does not mean the ability to do anything imaginable, and I don't really see how one would get that this is what the argument implies. The way the argument approaches it is as a choice between two possibilities, not anything imaginable.If, however, in all our decisions, only one apparent option is actually possible, then I don't understand how you can say that there is any sort of choice or freedom of choice going on.What you created was a possible world in which one choice was made, and hence the others became unavailable.If what you're saying here is that once a choice has been made, other things that were previously options become unavailable as options, then I agree. I just don't see how that invalidates the argument.