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Does the B-Theory of time imply Dualism?

Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,451
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7/24/2018 11:25:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

Why could there not be an unknown higher physical/mental/neutral explanation? I don't see how this implies dualism any more than anything else.
#StandWithBossy

#TheMadmanWasUnbanned
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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7/25/2018 2:23:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2018 11:25:49 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

Why could there not be an unknown higher physical/mental/neutral explanation? I don't see how this implies dualism any more than anything else.

Because every time slice your body is in has its own neural activity. There"s nothing that makes one more special than the other, why do you only experience this time slice and not another? Something more is required.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,451
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7/25/2018 5:04:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2018 2:23:17 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:25:49 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

Why could there not be an unknown higher physical/mental/neutral explanation? I don't see how this implies dualism any more than anything else.

Because every time slice your body is in has its own neural activity. There"s nothing that makes one more special than the other, why do you only experience this time slice and not another? Something more is required.

My point is that that "something more" doesn't HAVE to be a dualistic mind; it could just as easily be a monist idealistic substance or a monist neutral substance or whatever.
#StandWithBossy

#TheMadmanWasUnbanned
reece
Posts: 839
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7/25/2018 1:22:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

Forgive me, I'm ignorant on this topic.

How is time sliced in B-Theory?
Arnold_Schwarzenigger
Posts: 17
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7/25/2018 1:52:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2018 1:22:28 PM, reece wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

Forgive me, I'm ignorant on this topic.

How is time sliced in B-Theory?

With a knife.
Arnold_Schwarzenigger
Posts: 17
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7/25/2018 1:54:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

So then would our consciousness be in A-series time? Or wholly outside of time altogether? Assuming B theory is true, and also substance dualism is true, why would there be any reason for our conscious states to match up to the static block of time and space? There wouldn't be any necessary connection between my conscious states and the physical states of my body.
ommadon
Posts: 87
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7/25/2018 3:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

The main problem I have with this view is that it's incoherent to believe that reality or existents exist atemporally. In my view, time is just the ontological process of change. Things cannot exist if they aren't changing. Matter supervenes on time/change. In other words, matter is identical to changing matter.
ommadon
Posts: 87
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7/25/2018 3:38:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2018 3:31:04 PM, ommadon wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

The main problem I have with this view is that it's incoherent to believe that reality or existents exist atemporally. In my view, time is just the ontological process of change. Things cannot exist if they aren't changing. In other words, matter is identical to changing matter.
Arnold_Schwarzenigger
Posts: 17
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7/25/2018 7:57:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2018 3:31:04 PM, ommadon wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

The main problem I have with this view is that it's incoherent to believe that reality or existents exist atemporally. In my view, time is just the ontological process of change. Things cannot exist if they aren't changing. Matter supervenes on time/change. In other words, matter is identical to changing matter.

One can describe matter without reference to change so this seems prima facie false. Why must change be referenced when describing the nature of matter? Furthermore, can't change occur while reality exists atemporally? If x and x' are the same thing yet some characteristic of x is different why is this impossible in B theory of time? As I understand, B theory doesn't implicate that time doesn't exist, just that all moments of time exist. But there would still be the axis which exists. Simply because the future moments of the axis exist, it doesn't mean the axis isn't there.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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7/25/2018 8:52:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

I think it a good argument. Simplified, the block universe notion posits the whole of physical reality as a static 4D block, but consciousness is not static (it moves along the time axis) so it can not be part of physical reality - hence consiousness must be dualistic.

I'm not a block-universe fan, although the alternative ('presentism') has its own problems!

I offer no solution!
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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7/26/2018 1:53:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/25/2018 8:52:38 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

I think it a good argument. Simplified, the block universe notion posits the whole of physical reality as a static 4D block, but consciousness is not static (it moves along the time axis) so it can not be part of physical reality - hence consiousness must be dualistic.

I'm not a block-universe fan, although the alternative ('presentism') has its own problems!

I offer no solution!

You phrased the argument better than me.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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7/26/2018 2:02:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/26/2018 1:53:27 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 7/25/2018 8:52:38 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

I think it a good argument. Simplified, the block universe notion posits the whole of physical reality as a static 4D block, but consciousness is not static (it moves along the time axis) so it can not be part of physical reality - hence consiousness must be dualistic.

I'm not a block-universe fan, although the alternative ('presentism') has its own problems!

I offer no solution!

You phrased the argument better than me.

It's shorter, I don't know if it's better!

I find it very hard to have a strong opinion on such matters. Every position I have read about has its strengths and weaknesses. Block time theories fly in the face of intuition, but it's hard to fault them logically. Yet we grow old and die.
Heterodox
Posts: 430
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7/26/2018 4:17:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/24/2018 11:05:42 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Under the B-Theory of time we live in a block universe where everything is frozen and static (atemporal). All moments of time, your birth, your death etc... All are equally real. So if you take your physical self, it would actually be spread out like a timeline with multiple "yous" from your birth till your death. If your consciousness was brain activity, or supervenient on brain activity, then why do we experience this "now" moment instead of 5 minutes from now? If it is all physical, then there is nothing to make now any more special than 5 minutes from now. The best explanation is that our consciousness is something wholly separate from the physicality of the block. Otherwise, we have no account for the illusion of the flow of time.

Thoughts?

I don't particularly understand the concept.

However, if there are "multiple yous", then because you are you instead of one of the other yous. Similarly, the +5minYou doesn't "experience this "now"", though he may be able to reflect on it.
ommadon
Posts: 87
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7/26/2018 9:21:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The main problem I have with this view is that it's incoherent to believe that reality or existents exist atemporally. In my view, time is just the ontological process of change. Things cannot exist if they aren't changing. Matter supervenes on time/change. In other words, matter is identical to changing matter.

One can describe matter without reference to change so this seems prima facie false.

Of course one can do anything one wants within the limits of metaphysical possibility, but I don't think describing matter sans change/process is getting things (ontologically) accurate.

Why must change be referenced when describing the nature of matter?

Because matter necessarily changes (i.e. is always undergoing some process). That's a fact.

Furthermore, can't change occur while reality exists atemporally?

The idea that anything exists atemporally is incoherent because existence is necessarily processual.

If x and x' are the same thing yet some characteristic of x is different why is this impossible in B theory of time? As I understand, B theory doesn't implicate that time doesn't exist, just that all moments of time exist. But there would still be the axis which exists. Simply because the future moments of the axis exist, it doesn't mean the axis isn't there.

Firstly, x and x' are different and not the same thing if x has some characteristic that is different from x'.

Secondly, if all moments of time existed simultaneously, then that would mean change hasn't occurred, since change/time is state x changing (and the "loss" of state x, i.e. non-state x) into state x'. The theory implies that there is no ontological change, which means that things are ontologically inertiatic or static.
ebuc
Posts: 2,915
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8/31/2018 2:47:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Dualism?

The one, Finite, occupied space Universe is composed has onlyh space dual and that is the macro-infinite non-occupied space that embraces our finite, occupied space Universe.

The exists only three, Irrational alternatives;

1} our occupied space Universe is infinite, Or,

2} finite set of non-connected multi-verse's i. E. One or more small u, Local universe's,

3} infinite set of non-connected, Local universe's.

SPACE {><)(><) SPACE without bilateral consciouness and access to metaphysical-1, Mind/intellect/concepts.

SPACE {>*<) i (>*<) SPACE with bilateral consciousness and access to metaphysical-1, Mind/intellect/concepts.
" U "niverse > Universe > Universe I -verse < you-verse we-verse > them-verse
Gravitational SPACE ( + )
Dark Energy SPACE )-(
Time >66.4< --frequency ^v^v
Mind/Intellect 12--3-fold 4-fold and 5-fold
Biological *8* --bilateral four's
Spin <left 6 right >---Pitch, Yaw Roll{ 3 * 2 = 6 }
IS >2<--positive and negative tetrhaedron

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