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Free will is an illusion

BertrandsTeapot
Posts: 17
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8/24/2018 7:47:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
One cannot be the author of their own conscious desires or thoughts. One cannot have control over their wants and needs and impulses. Any decision you try to trace back can only be traced back to some unconscious process over which you had no control.
Leaning
Posts: 2,719
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8/26/2018 2:44:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you traced everything back far enough and were even aware of everything. . . You think it would just make a circle?
ken1122
Posts: 1,737
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8/29/2018 4:34:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
(Quote)
One cannot be the author of their own conscious desires or thoughts.
(reply) Why?

(Quote)
One cannot have control over their wants and needs and impulses. Any decision you try to trace back can only be traced back to some unconscious process over which you had no control.
(reply)
How do you know this?
ebuc
Posts: 2,915
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8/31/2018 11:59:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A spiral is a circle.

A spiral defines a tube and if the spiral tube goes in a circle it approximate a torus.

Think of a slinky toy that comes around to meet itself. A wave patterned torus.

Free will is one of the greatest illusions after 3D space. Ha :--)

Holographic scenarios > black holes > 2D area of t sphere > 2D area inside the sphere or tube via the Anti-de-Sitter/Conformal Field Theories.

The area 2D surface area of a spherical cubo-octahedron, Is equal to the four 2D hexagons that define that spherical.
" U "niverse > Universe > Universe I -verse < you-verse we-verse > them-verse
Gravitational SPACE ( + )
Dark Energy SPACE )-(
Time >66.4< --frequency ^v^v
Mind/Intellect 12--3-fold 4-fold and 5-fold
Biological *8* --bilateral four's
Spin <left 6 right >---Pitch, Yaw Roll{ 3 * 2 = 6 }
IS >2<--positive and negative tetrhaedron
ebuc
Posts: 2,915
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9/2/2018 1:23:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
https://www. Google. Com/search? Q=slinky+wave&client=firefox-b-1&sa=X&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ved=2ahUKEwjA4IHYspzdAhUF6YMKHTCtAAgQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1241&bih=546

. . . . "Since this correspondence relates theories in different dimensions, It is often referred to as "holography. " (Recall that a hologram encodes a three-dimensional image on a flat two-dimensional film. )". . .

And a flat 2D film can be transformed into a tube. Can the tube be transformed into a torus? Can a slinky be equated to a 2D film?

A spiral is a circle.

A spiral defines a tube and if the spiral tube goes in a circle it approximate a torus.

Think of a slinky toy that comes around to meet itself. A wave patterned torus.

Free will is one of the greatest illusions after 3D space. Ha :--)

Holographic scenarios > black holes > 2D area of t sphere > 2D area inside the sphere or tube via the Anti-de-Sitter/Conformal Field Theories.

The area 2D surface area of a spherical cubo-octahedron, Is equal to the four 2D hexagons that define that spherical.
" U "niverse > Universe > Universe I -verse < you-verse we-verse > them-verse
Gravitational SPACE ( + )
Dark Energy SPACE )-(
Time >66.4< --frequency ^v^v
Mind/Intellect 12--3-fold 4-fold and 5-fold
Biological *8* --bilateral four's
Spin <left 6 right >---Pitch, Yaw Roll{ 3 * 2 = 6 }
IS >2<--positive and negative tetrhaedron
cello242
Posts: 1
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9/7/2018 6:52:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
My claim: Free will is NOT an illusion

This is the old debate of determinism vs. Liberatarian free will. Determinism only works if you apply Naturalism. If not all things are physical then not all things have to be determined, There can be truly free agents. However this is a truly different debate. To the main argument.

If free will is an illusion, Then so are objective moral values. I would like to mention that ought implies can. If you ought to do something then it implies that you can do something; you have a choice to do something or not. If all things are determined then why are we charged with crime and held ethically responsible? Why was the Atlantic Slave Trade, The Holocaust, Rwandan Genocide, Etc. Wrong if there was no other choice?

If free will is an illusion then therefore ethics are illusory as well. As we can all agree that some things are truly morally wrong, Then we can conclude that we really do have free will to refrain from morally abhorrent actions and to do really good deeds.
Thank you to everyone for attempting to bring myself and others like me closer to the truth.

Yours Truly
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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9/14/2018 10:15:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
@ cello242

My claim: Free will is NOT an illusion

This is the old debate of determinism vs. Liberatarian free will. Determinism only works if you apply Naturalism.

This is not the case.

If not all things are physical then not all things have to be determined, There can be truly free agents. However this is a truly different debate. To the main argument.

Even non-physical, Ghosts, Angels, And gods take actions that are (EITHER) part of a causal chain, (OR) not part of a causal chain. Any action that is not part of a causal chain (first cause or causa sui) is a de facto random event. A random action is not a free action.

If free will is an illusion, Then so are objective moral values. I would like to mention that ought implies can. If you ought to do something then it implies that you can do something; you have a choice to do something or not. If all things are determined then why are we charged with crime and held ethically responsible? Why was the Atlantic Slave Trade, The Holocaust, Rwandan Genocide, Etc. Wrong if there was no other choice?

You are jumping to predetermined conclusions. This is called "motivated reasoning". You cannot use a predetermined conclusion to justify a premise.

If free will is an illusion then therefore ethics are illusory as well. As we can all agree that some things are truly morally wrong, Then we can conclude that we really do have free will to refrain from morally abhorrent actions and to do really good deeds.

Free will is not the only basis for taking corrective action. We don't have any problem taking action to stop a rabid dog for instance. We have no need to imagine the creature has some sort of mysterious free will before we can resolve the danger to society.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
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Leaning
Posts: 2,719
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9/15/2018 12:24:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
https://www. Suficomics. Com/sufi-comics/freewill-or-pre-destination/

Just a comic I found mildly interesting.
skipsaweirdo
Posts: 2,695
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10/26/2018 4:41:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
thinking free will is an illusion is an illusion. . .
this site is dead. It doesn't even correctly post replies..
BillSPrestonEsq
Posts: 286
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11/12/2018 2:05:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Determinism cannot practically exist as you cannot influence choice by claiming first that choice is an illusion. We can look at choices from the most objective position we can and from this, Learn all about why we behave the way we do. But, It cannot be in the context that we have no real choice to begin with. It would be self refuting.
Another problem I see with determinism is that it seems to ignore emergence. Emergence is what gives water 'wetness'. Neither hydrogen or oxygen atoms have any water like characteristics on their own, But together form water. Consciousness, While it may be created out of physical parts, Is more than the sum of these parts. As a matter of fact it cannot be reduced to it's parts. While the brain is physical a thought is not. What is important to consider is that with these emergent phenomena there are causal loops where there is both bottom up and top down causation. Within us there are three major causal feedback loops that exist between our physical bodies, Our environment and our consciousness. Our consciousness can affect our physical bodies and so our environment just as our environment and physical bodies can affect our consciousness. There is no evidence to support where in time each of these exist in relation to one another.
This concept of causation and time seems rather important to the debate. While we cannot change the actual events in the past, We can reframe events in our minds creating backward causation.
burnaby
Posts: 1
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3/13/2019 12:34:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I believe that we do have free will in a manner of speaking. It's just that everything we do has already been foreknown.
melcharaz
Posts: 45
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3/27/2019 3:31:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
an interesting concept! But what is an illusion?
a thing that is or is likely to be wrongly perceived or interpreted by the senses.
a deceptive appearance or impression.
a false idea or belief.
that's the definition of illusion. If we say that free will is likely wrongly percieved or interpreted, Then there is the possibility of that being true.

However i think the more interesting route would be the concept of fatalism
the belief that all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

either way, Its possible that our understanding of what free will is, Could quite possibly be wrong! But, We won't know until we are omniscient.

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