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3-D Guns

Nd2400
Posts: 3,221
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7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...
Heterodox
Posts: 430
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7/31/2018 4:03:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

Cheapest is to just steal one. Cheaper to buy an illegal gun from the guy down the street. Cheaper, though not as cheap as the previous, to just buy a traditional gun from an actual dealer used or new (may not be available in all states).

As for the data, the blueprints, ya that's unstoppable, 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendments at least.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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7/31/2018 4:09:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 4:03:25 PM, Heterodox wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

Cheapest is to just steal one. Cheaper to buy an illegal gun from the guy down the street. Cheaper, though not as cheap as the previous, to just buy a traditional gun from an actual dealer used or new (may not be available in all states).

As for the data, the blueprints, ya that's unstoppable, 1st, 2nd, and 4th amendments at least.

solid points, the black market is king and depending on laws etc it will either increase or decrease, but it will never vanish.
Anonymous
8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/1/2018 3:22:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

not if they do a good enough job filing, I don't believe the serial numbers are useful, perhaps on rare occasions, do you have a cite or knowledge of how many crimes are solved or people arrested because of the serial numbers?
Anonymous
8/1/2018 4:04:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 3:22:45 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

not if they do a good enough job filing, I don't believe the serial numbers are useful, perhaps on rare occasions, do you have a cite or knowledge of how many crimes are solved or people arrested because of the serial numbers?

I didn't claim that serial numbers directly thwart generic crime; I said that "traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking."

Do you believe that if a measure can be countered with enough effort that the measure is essentially pointless? If so, I *highly* doubt that you are consistent across the board in that belief.

There are certainly barriers and inefficiencies in firearm tracing, but many of them are largely *by intent* rather than being intrinsic.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/1/2018 4:15:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 4:04:19 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:22:45 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

not if they do a good enough job filing, I don't believe the serial numbers are useful, perhaps on rare occasions, do you have a cite or knowledge of how many crimes are solved or people arrested because of the serial numbers?

I didn't claim that serial numbers directly thwart generic crime; I said that "traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking."

right I was asking for examples, details or stats to backup that claim, since I don't believe this to be true, since I've had to ask again, it must not exist.
Do you believe that if a measure can be countered with enough effort that the measure is essentially pointless? If so, I *highly* doubt that you are consistent across the board in that belief.

even w/o it being countered I believe this measure to be essentially pointless, homemade guns have never needed serial numbers, while you can make one, you can't legally sell it or transfer it to another person.
There are certainly barriers and inefficiencies in firearm tracing, but many of them are largely *by intent* rather than being intrinsic.
there is no gun registration so it may help you find original purchaser, which is helpful how? if the intent is to return a stolen gun to the purchaser (which I doubt) then I could see it might be useful. Even if there was a registration and you could track the gun back to the last owner, what good would that do?
Anonymous
8/1/2018 4:40:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 4:15:55 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/1/2018 4:04:19 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:22:45 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

not if they do a good enough job filing, I don't believe the serial numbers are useful, perhaps on rare occasions, do you have a cite or knowledge of how many crimes are solved or people arrested because of the serial numbers?

I didn't claim that serial numbers directly thwart generic crime; I said that "traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking."

right I was asking for examples, details or stats to backup that claim, since I don't believe this to be true, since I've had to ask again, it must not exist.

Here is a research article on this very subject:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Do you believe that if a measure can be countered with enough effort that the measure is essentially pointless? If so, I *highly* doubt that you are consistent across the board in that belief.

even w/o it being countered I believe this measure to be essentially pointless, homemade guns have never needed serial numbers, while you can make one, you can't legally sell it or transfer it to another person.

Cars have locks, yet car theft still happens to a shocking degree. Do you believe car locks are essentially pointless?

There are certainly barriers and inefficiencies in firearm tracing, but many of them are largely *by intent* rather than being intrinsic.
there is no gun registration so it may help you find original purchaser, which is helpful how? if the intent is to return a stolen gun to the purchaser (which I doubt) then I could see it might be useful. Even if there was a registration and you could track the gun back to the last owner, what good would that do?

I never claimed that the only intent of serial numbers was to return stolen property to its owner. Again, traceability of firearms aids in learning about weapons trafficking patterns, and that, in turn, aids in combatting the practice.
Anonymous
8/1/2018 4:46:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
My linked article is not brief, so here is the text most relevant:

"Routine tracing of firearms recovered from criminals is key to the effective enforcement of each of these policies. Firearms in the US are required to have a unique serial number, enabling BATFE to identify both the dealer and the first retail purchaser of guns used in crime. Those trace data can be used by law enforcement to identify dealers who sell a disproportionate number of crime guns. Those dealers can then be subjected to heightened scrutiny. Individual traffickers can also be identified through trace data."
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/1/2018 5:51:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 4:40:31 PM, Fly wrote:

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

not if they do a good enough job filing, I don't believe the serial numbers are useful, perhaps on rare occasions, do you have a cite or knowledge of how many crimes are solved or people arrested because of the serial numbers?

I didn't claim that serial numbers directly thwart generic crime; I said that "traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking."

right I was asking for examples, details or stats to backup that claim, since I don't believe this to be true, since I've had to ask again, it must not exist.

Here is a research article on this very subject:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Do you believe that if a measure can be countered with enough effort that the measure is essentially pointless? If so, I *highly* doubt that you are consistent across the board in that belief.

even w/o it being countered I believe this measure to be essentially pointless, homemade guns have never needed serial numbers, while you can make one, you can't legally sell it or transfer it to another person.

Cars have locks, yet car theft still happens to a shocking degree. Do you believe car locks are essentially pointless?

how does a car lock compare with a serial number? a lock is a physical barrier, apples and oranges I'm afraid.
There are certainly barriers and inefficiencies in firearm tracing, but many of them are largely *by intent* rather than being intrinsic.
there is no gun registration so it may help you find original purchaser, which is helpful how? if the intent is to return a stolen gun to the purchaser (which I doubt) then I could see it might be useful. Even if there was a registration and you could track the gun back to the last owner, what good would that do?

I never claimed that the only intent of serial numbers was to return stolen property to its owner. Again, traceability of firearms aids in learning about weapons trafficking patterns, and that, in turn, aids in combatting the practice.
so it's a statistical thing like when they gave all those machine guns to the Mexican drug cartels? I seem to recall now only did that not work but it was quite a scandal.
" Those trace data can be used by law enforcement to identify dealers who sell a disproportionate number of crime guns."
this is a farce mostly, if the person passes the background checks required, how is the dealer to know what happens to the gun after it is purchased? Google some of the largest straw purchasers that have been caught, then look at their punishment What good are car locks if they don't work or are on the outside of the car? LOL anyway you this isn't useful w/o a registration and with registration there is no right, If they were aggressively punishing straw purchasers that would be one thing, but I have not seen that is the case. Not sure if other states tried it but
http://www.baltimoresun.com...
Anyway the blue prints have been released.
http://www.youtube.com...
Maccabee
Posts: 1,340
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8/2/2018 8:11:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

Do you have evidence that serializing firearms reduced crime since 1968 when the law was implemented?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/2/2018 12:51:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 8:11:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

Do you have evidence that serializing firearms reduced crime since 1968 when the law was implemented?

or background checks
Anonymous
8/2/2018 3:46:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 8:11:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

Do you have evidence that serializing firearms reduced crime since 1968 when the law was implemented?

This is like talking to a broken record-- your question is virtually identical to that of a previous poster. Is there a hive-mind or common playbook at work here? Anyway, your question misconstrues what I am talking about, and I have explained this already in post #7, if you will please read this entire thread. It isn't too long at this point.

Even if your question were relevant to what is being discussed, which, and I repeat it is not, there are still glaring problems with addressing it which you should know about:

1. The GCA of 1968 had multiple stipulations, so the Act's effects cannot be easily reduced down to just one of those stipulations (serial numbers in this case).
2. Gun manufacturer's still provided serial numbers on a voluntary basis prior to 1968, which also complicates your request.
3. The FOPA of 1986 walked back many of the provisions of the GCA of 1968, which also complicates the issue after that year.

The most one could do would be to examine the effects of the GCA of 1968 overall, up until 1986 or so.

Now, a question for you: if you disagree with what I have provided, what do you believe to be the intended purpose of firearm serial numbers?
Maccabee
Posts: 1,340
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8/4/2018 11:30:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 3:46:48 PM, Fly wrote:
At 8/2/2018 8:11:06 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 8/1/2018 3:11:23 PM, Fly wrote:
At 7/31/2018 3:37:42 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/31/2018 2:48:53 PM, Nd2400 wrote:
Here is a short video explaining a little bit more on this subject.

https://youtu.be...

The whole video is over 18 minutes. But it didn't get to the issue until the 1140 mark.

"3-D guns: Untraceable, undetectable and unstoppable?"
https://www.cnn.com...

What are you feeling about this?

First CNN is a joke, the barrel, springs and most of the internals still have to be made of metal. Every time you post a CNN link God kills a kitten.
that's nothing new, even before that you could make a gun for personal use w/o any serial number, you just can't sell it. What good is being able to trace a gun, when would you need to trace one and how would it help? Criminals tend to file them off anyway.
someone with some kill and access to a machine shop makes all of this irrelevant.
http://www.youtube.com...

Serial numbers exist for a reason. Traceability of firearms is an important facet of combatting illegal weapons trafficking. When a weapon connected with a crime is found, tracing it successfully aids in defining exactly where the problems are and finding ways to thwart illegal weapons trafficking. Simply filing serial numbers off is not completely effective. There are methods to recover filed off numbers.

Do you have evidence that serializing firearms reduced crime since 1968 when the law was implemented?

This is like talking to a broken record-- your question is virtually identical to that of a previous poster. Is there a hive-mind or common playbook at work here? Anyway, your question misconstrues what I am talking about, and I have explained this already in post #7, if you will please read this entire thread. It isn't too long at this point.

Even if your question were relevant to what is being discussed, which, and I repeat it is not, there are still glaring problems with addressing it which you should know about:

1. The GCA of 1968 had multiple stipulations, so the Act's effects cannot be easily reduced down to just one of those stipulations (serial numbers in this case).
2. Gun manufacturer's still provided serial numbers on a voluntary basis prior to 1968, which also complicates your request.
3. The FOPA of 1986 walked back many of the provisions of the GCA of 1968, which also complicates the issue after that year.

The most one could do would be to examine the effects of the GCA of 1968 overall, up until 1986 or so.

Now, a question for you: if you disagree with what I have provided, what do you believe to be the intended purpose of firearm serial numbers?
I believe the law was implemented with good intentions, but with little research.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born

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