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Was Jesus a Socialist?

Iceflyer130
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8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.
Swagnarok
Posts: 2,020
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8/1/2018 9:40:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It should be noted that, according to Christianity, humans don't own squat but rather everything belongs to God. Therefore, humans are mere stewards over God's creation. They build civilizations and invent new technologies as an expression of their creative power, which is the highest mark of the Godlike image that humans were created in.
As stewards of creation, humans are called to whatever economic system best suits human needs and the needs of a sustainable planet.

This^ is what Christians generally agree upon. Whether capitalism or socialism better suits human needs is up for debate. The Bible was never meant to serve as a guide to economics but rather something that (among other things) taught people how to live rightly. Morals are, of course, something that can and should be applied to every possible field of knowledge, including economics.
In Jesus's day, Capitalism as we know it did not exist. Instead, there was merely land and natural resources, and whoever controlled these would be rich, and everybody else could just f*** themselves. Nothing was invested in or developed, but rather merely exploited. It was this system which Jesus condemned, because it was clearly a system that did not benefit the majority of people.
Capitalism has lifted untold billions out of absolute poverty, which is surely something that Jesus would've been on board with. However, overconsumption may prove to be our own undoing, so it can't be said either that the God of the Bible is pro-capitalism.
Rest in Peace DDO (2007-2018)
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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8/1/2018 9:44:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

Of course he was a socialist. He told everyone with wealth to give it away to the unproductive poor using the coercive threat of eternal fire.

No different from modern day egalitarian socialism.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/2/2018 12:59:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

teach a man to fish......in other words be self sufficient but also charitable. I don't know if he ever said you must give whatever % of your earrings to the poor and that everyone is a co-owner of your production. Imo socialism is forced/mandated/government issued charity under penalty of law. Someone with better knowledge probably can answer this better than I. By giving to the poor (a choice) was there a reward or penalty according to Jesus? Under socialism if you don't pay your taxes there is a penalty, you have no choice in the matter.
Jesus says give. Government says I'll take.
Greyparrot
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8/2/2018 6:32:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 12:59:28 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

teach a man to fish......in other words be self sufficient but also charitable. I don't know if he ever said you must give whatever % of your earrings to the poor and that everyone is a co-owner of your production. Imo socialism is forced/mandated/government issued charity under penalty of law. Someone with better knowledge probably can answer this better than I. By giving to the poor (a choice) was there a reward or penalty according to Jesus? Under socialism if you don't pay your taxes there is a penalty, you have no choice in the matter.
Jesus says give. Government says I'll take.

The reward was "heaven"...the penalty was "hell"
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/2/2018 6:37:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 6:32:46 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/2/2018 12:59:28 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

teach a man to fish......in other words be self sufficient but also charitable. I don't know if he ever said you must give whatever % of your earnings to the poor and that everyone is a co-owner of your production. Imo socialism is forced/mandated/government issued charity under penalty of law. Someone with better knowledge probably can answer this better than I. By giving to the poor (a choice) was there a reward or penalty according to Jesus? Under socialism if you don't pay your taxes there is a penalty, you have no choice in the matter.
Jesus says give. Government says I'll take.

The reward was "heaven"...the penalty was "hell"

in the bible it says if you don't give your wealth to the poor you will go to hell? I've never read it, but I have never heard that before. Is that for specific individuals, as I'm not aware of it being a general teaching. What I have heard is things to encourage compassion and charity.
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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8/2/2018 6:40:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 6:37:25 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:

in the bible it says if you don't give your wealth to the poor you will go to hell? I've never read it, but I have never heard that before. Is that for specific individuals, as I'm not aware of it being a general teaching. What I have heard is things to encourage compassion and charity.

Mark 10:24-27, and Luke 18:24-27
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/2/2018 6:49:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 6:40:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:37:25 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:

in the bible it says if you don't give your wealth to the poor you will go to hell? I've never read it, but I have never heard that before. Is that for specific individuals, as I'm not aware of it being a general teaching. What I have heard is things to encourage compassion and charity.

Mark 10:24-27, and Luke 18:24-27

w/o any additional context that could be read as if the rich don't get into heaven.
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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8/2/2018 6:51:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 6:49:43 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:40:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:37:25 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:

in the bible it says if you don't give your wealth to the poor you will go to hell? I've never read it, but I have never heard that before. Is that for specific individuals, as I'm not aware of it being a general teaching. What I have heard is things to encourage compassion and charity.

Mark 10:24-27, and Luke 18:24-27

w/o any additional context that could be read as if the rich don't get into heaven.

Read the whole chapter then...it's literally what it says.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/2/2018 6:58:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 6:51:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:49:43 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:40:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:37:25 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:

in the bible it says if you don't give your wealth to the poor you will go to hell? I've never read it, but I have never heard that before. Is that for specific individuals, as I'm not aware of it being a general teaching. What I have heard is things to encourage compassion and charity.

Mark 10:24-27, and Luke 18:24-27

w/o any additional context that could be read as if the rich don't get into heaven.

Read the whole chapter then...it's literally what it says.

this makes more sense to me
https://www.forbes.com...
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,636
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8/2/2018 7:15:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 9:44:59 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

Of course he was a socialist. He told everyone with wealth to give it away to the unproductive poor using the coercive threat of eternal fire.

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

- Matthew 19:21

Follow him? But where is he going?

Being "perfect" as Christ was and all that comes with it lets you obtain that in heaven sure... but its not the only way into heaven. It seems you are basing the aforementioned with the following:

"it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

-Matthew 19:24

And transposing that as meaning it's really hard for the rich to get into heaven, therefore it's a call to people to give up everything. But that ignores

"Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, who sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord doesn't count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit" (Psalm 32:1-2)."

And that Christ's death was an absolvement of the sins of man, upon the condition you accept his forgiveness. And that ultimately earthly matters such as government and money were not his concern,

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars and to God the things that are God's."

Matthew 19:21

"Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God"

Romans 13:1

"governing authorities" covers alot including nature. And really, the second part is merely conveying it was all *originally* established by God, therefore it all comes from him. Is *all* that God makes good, how can it be in light of evil?

That's not making a statement on the morality of that authority fmpov.

No different from modern day egalitarian socialism.

Similar in many aspects to what he transposed as *perfect*. Different from what he was trying to convey imho
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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8/2/2018 7:18:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 6:58:53 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:51:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:49:43 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:40:16 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 8/2/2018 6:37:25 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:

in the bible it says if you don't give your wealth to the poor you will go to hell? I've never read it, but I have never heard that before. Is that for specific individuals, as I'm not aware of it being a general teaching. What I have heard is things to encourage compassion and charity.

Mark 10:24-27, and Luke 18:24-27

w/o any additional context that could be read as if the rich don't get into heaven.

Read the whole chapter then...it's literally what it says.

this makes more sense to me
https://www.forbes.com...

The point is..who cares? I don't ask the pope to figure out how much food to buy to get me through the winter.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,636
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8/2/2018 7:19:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Romans isnt Christ, but it has often been transposed against Christ's teachings so as to justify all earthly governance as good or some variation of that.

Shoulda left it out but I felt that would probably be brought up at some point anyways lol
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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8/2/2018 8:06:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 7:19:15 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
Romans isnt Christ, but it has often been transposed against Christ's teachings so as to justify all earthly governance as good or some variation of that.

Shoulda left it out but I felt that would probably be brought up at some point anyways lol

http://www.philly.com...
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,636
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8/2/2018 8:12:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 8:06:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

http://www.philly.com...

Can you at least elaborate as to what you are trying to say?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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8/2/2018 8:24:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 8:12:46 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 8/2/2018 8:06:38 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

http://www.philly.com...

Can you at least elaborate as to what you are trying to say?

Don't ask a priest about the worldly economy is what the article is saying. So asking if Jesus was a socialist is like asking Buddamoose the proper fuel/oxygen ratios for a Mars rocket.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,636
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8/2/2018 8:28:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 8:24:57 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

Don't ask a priest about the worldly economy is what the article is saying. So asking if Jesus was a socialist is like asking Buddamoose the proper fuel/oxygen ratios for a Mars rocket.

I don't disagree, I'm not a rocket scientist xD
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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8/2/2018 9:47:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 8:28:56 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 8/2/2018 8:24:57 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

Don't ask a priest about the worldly economy is what the article is saying. So asking if Jesus was a socialist is like asking Buddamoose the proper fuel/oxygen ratios for a Mars rocket.

I don't disagree, I'm not a rocket scientist xD

The whole "rich man cannot enter heaven" played very nicely into the whole "selling indulgences" scam that lasted for centuries under the wealthy Vatican.
https://en.wikipedia.org...
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,636
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8/2/2018 11:01:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 9:47:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

The whole "rich man cannot enter heaven" played very nicely into the whole "selling indulgences" scam that lasted for centuries under the wealthy Vatican.

It did, that's in part what the point was about xD
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Bennett91
Posts: 8,093
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8/3/2018 4:33:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

It depends on the definition of socialism being used. It's a redefining of 'socialist' as Christian compared to it be a slur.

The connection is both are are essentially giving hands outs. Jesus with free healings and producing and abundance of fish, bread, and wine for the people. Today we have the welfare state.
The Prophet Sanders preaching the Word [][]
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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8/3/2018 1:31:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2018 4:33:37 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

It depends on the definition of socialism being used. It's a redefining of 'socialist' as Christian compared to it be a slur.

The connection is both are are essentially giving hands outs. Jesus with free healings and producing and abundance of fish, bread, and wine for the people. Today we have the welfare state.

but he did those things, they weren't taken from other people w/o permission and redistributed. Huge difference between doing something by choice and not having a choice wouldn't you agree?
charity is voluntary, having your money taken for the welfare state is not.
Bennett91
Posts: 8,093
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8/3/2018 9:46:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2018 1:31:45 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/3/2018 4:33:37 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

It depends on the definition of socialism being used. It's a redefining of 'socialist' as Christian compared to it be a slur.

The connection is both are are essentially giving hands outs. Jesus with free healings and producing and abundance of fish, bread, and wine for the people. Today we have the welfare state.

but he did those things, they weren't taken from other people w/o permission and redistributed. Huge difference between doing something by choice and not having a choice wouldn't you agree?
charity is voluntary, having your money taken for the welfare state is not.

It's not a simple matter of choice (which we have through representation) it's a matter of power and opportunity - both Christ and the Government are capable and should be willing to care for its cittizens. That's why every industrial country on earth (besides the US) has free education and healthcare. It may cost higher in taxes but compared to free market fees and miscellaneous charges it's a huge savings. [https://thinkprogress.org...]

Also taxation is lawful; the average citizen doesn't get to choose on what any of that revenue is spent on. So when you complain about some policy (welfare) as theft while other policy gets funded (military) from the same trough is just hypocrisy on your end.
The Prophet Sanders preaching the Word [][]
Iceflyer130
Posts: 18
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8/5/2018 8:21:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2018 9:46:36 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/3/2018 1:31:45 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 8/3/2018 4:33:37 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/1/2018 8:58:06 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:
I have recently been hearing from socialists defending their system that Jesus Christ was a socialist. I just wonder, what is the basis and argument for this claim? I can find nothing where Jesus advocates socialist principles.

It depends on the definition of socialism being used. It's a redefining of 'socialist' as Christian compared to it be a slur.

The connection is both are are essentially giving hands outs. Jesus with free healings and producing and abundance of fish, bread, and wine for the people. Today we have the welfare state.

but he did those things, they weren't taken from other people w/o permission and redistributed. Huge difference between doing something by choice and not having a choice wouldn't you agree?
charity is voluntary, having your money taken for the welfare state is not.

It's not a simple matter of choice (which we have through representation) it's a matter of power and opportunity - both Christ and the Government are capable and should be willing to care for its cittizens. That's why every industrial country on earth (besides the US) has free education and healthcare. It may cost higher in taxes but compared to free market fees and miscellaneous charges it's a huge savings. [https://thinkprogress.org...]

Also taxation is lawful; the average citizen doesn't get to choose on what any of that revenue is spent on. So when you complain about some policy (welfare) as theft while other policy gets funded (military) from the same trough is just hypocrisy on your end.
Now hold the phone. Point to me in the U.S. constitution where the government is required to maintain a welfare state. You won't be able to. You will be able to find however that taxes and other government revenue can be spent to maintain a standing army. Welfare may be a good idea to some people, but it is not provided for in the U.S. constitution. Hence why it is perceived as theft.
Bennett91
Posts: 8,093
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8/5/2018 9:41:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2018 8:21:57 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:

Now hold the phone.

I didn't call you - how'd you get my number?

Point to me in the U.S. constitution where the government is required to maintain a welfare state. You won't be able to. You will be able to find however that taxes and other government revenue can be spent to maintain a standing army. Welfare may be a good idea to some people, but it is not provided for in the U.S. constitution. Hence why it is perceived as theft.

The Constitution is a framework for law to be built within. The Founders made a legislative 1st branch to pass laws - not just obey the Constitution as the singular source of legal authority. In short Welfare is Constitutional, that's what matters.

There's a lot of things not explicitly stated in the Constitution, like the right to privacy in the digital age, or even civil rights in general. The right to vote was originally explicit and was left up to the states. But that's why we have judges to interpret the law. The good ol 3rd branch.

Please understand that while the US Constitution is important, it's not the end all be all of what is legal or not. Congress exists for a reason.
The Prophet Sanders preaching the Word [][]
Iceflyer130
Posts: 18
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8/5/2018 10:02:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2018 9:41:32 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 8/5/2018 8:21:57 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:

Now hold the phone.

I didn't call you - how'd you get my number?

Point to me in the U.S. constitution where the government is required to maintain a welfare state. You won't be able to. You will be able to find however that taxes and other government revenue can be spent to maintain a standing army. Welfare may be a good idea to some people, but it is not provided for in the U.S. constitution. Hence why it is perceived as theft.

The Constitution is a framework for law to be built within. The Founders made a legislative 1st branch to pass laws - not just obey the Constitution as the singular source of legal authority. In short Welfare is Constitutional, that's what matters.

There's a lot of things not explicitly stated in the Constitution, like the right to privacy in the digital age, or even civil rights in general. The right to vote was originally explicit and was left up to the states. But that's why we have judges to interpret the law. The good ol 3rd branch.

Please understand that while the US Constitution is important, it's not the end all be all of what is legal or not. Congress exists for a reason.
Then what is the constitution if not the end all be all. Is it the pirate code? Guidelines more than actual rules? The constitution gave Congress the ability to use taxes for three things. Can you tell me what they are? I can tell you that welfare is not one of them.
Bennett91
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8/5/2018 10:16:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2018 10:02:57 PM, Iceflyer130 wrote:

Then what is the constitution if not the end all be all.

The Constitution was written on a single large sheet or parchment. There's more to US legal code than that single document. That's why we also have legal precedent, laws passed by congress etc etc. so long as it's not unconstitutional then I don't see what the problem is.

Is it the pirate code? Guidelines more than actual rules? The constitution gave Congress the ability to use taxes for three things. Can you tell me what they are? I can tell you that welfare is not one of them.

No tell me, what are the 3 things that government can only fund.
The Prophet Sanders preaching the Word [][]

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