Total Posts:39|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Drug Testing: Just Wrong

Anonymous
1/12/2017 10:26:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I was recently fired from a job because I was unable to complete a urinalysis. I have trouble urinating under pressure or in public. This condition can be called several things:
- paruresis
- avoidant paruresis
- shy bladder
- bushing kidney
My job sent me to the hospital for a routine drug screening and when I tried performing for the test I was unable. The nurse was completely untrained in dealing with paruretics (the condition is not really recognized by the medical community) and oblivious to my condition, trying to offer me water to increase my ability to urinate. I told her that no amount of water, time, bladder pain, or anything other than privacy can allow me to urinate. While the test was behind a closed door, she intentionally left off any fans, running water, etc. that might have insulated my ability to be heard and thus calm me down so I could urinate. I suppose they consider it easier to catch cheaters when it is dead-quiet(?) despite the fact that it's easy as cake to subvert a urinalysis if you want (having somebody else urinate in a bag for you, using synthetic urine and heating powder, drinking lots of water to dilute the sample, etc.). The nurse wouldn't give me an alternative method to urinalysis. I was denied the option of using hair, blood, or saliva to complete it (I later offered to pay the difference in cost but was still denied). Because I could not urinate, I was fired from my position and am now unemployed, and most of my colleagues involved cannot understand my objections and consider me simply a drug-user trying to cheat the system.

I am perhaps able to file a suit for discrimination based on my mental health, however I saw a family doctor and he wants to load me up on prescription drugs in order to move forward in the process. I shouldn't have to point out the infuriatingly irony with this... suffice to say I don't consume caffiene or nicotine, and I watch my sugar and salt levels very closely. To jump from that state of mind (naturalism) to ingesting pharmaceuticals that may very well dull my mental knife and produce loads of potential side-effects, engineered and prescribed by human beings who know so very little about how the brain and mind actually work... well that is something I cannot do. I cannot load up on drugs in order to potentially (I doubt it would work anyway, I've been like this for 32 years now) be able to urinate in a cup to prove I am not on drugs. For that reason I probably will be forced to subvert my inevitable future urinalyses with synthetic urine, as I cannot hope to take the honest way out here.

Putting aside my current mental anguish and disruption of my career, I want to talk about the social urge to drug test. Most of you are probably unaware that the government of the United States, Pre-Reagan and Bush's rise to Orwellian Neocon power, had a history of valuing personal freedom over the employer's and government's right to know what is inside your body. The Supreme Court routinely struck down the interests of institutional security in favor of personal freedom, even in instances where there was a clear need for drug-control (drivers and armed security guards to name a couple). Fast-forward to today, and even sitting in a cubicle is reason-enough to force you into a room to produce a urine sample. My body chemistry is my business, not yours.

I'm sure the utilitarian balance between personal rights and institutional rights will be brought up by our right-leaning members to retort. I believe that the Ends cannot justify the Means, and to say that drug testing is a "necessary evil" is to say that "evil is necessary." I don't believe in any necessary evils, I believe that if you have come to the conclusion that evil is necessary that you only do so because you are unable or unwilling to admit that you are wrong. If you value ethics at all then you will continue working on a problem until you find a way in which the dignity of all is preserved, not the dignity of the majority (alas, if only the dignity of the majority is concerned, then it is in fact lost anyway). If we cannot preserve the dignity of our citizens then we cannot call ourselves a great nation, we are simply another group of people trying to seize power any way we can. Terrorists aren't any more or less "right" than we are by any metric imaginable in that instance.

As the decades wear on, our liberties and rights are being curtailed in the name of security and our dignity is fading very quickly. A good person from decades-past would probably find it difficult to survive in modern America, being accustomed to actual freedom. Could you imagine handing a cup to a hardworking 1950s man and telling him he needs to urinate into it? He would throw the cup in your face and probably punch you. Then he would be fired and forced into submission like the rest of us, castrating us one piece of our dignity at a time.

I think it is the conservative element in America that purveys institutional rights the most. Conservatives push for the war on drug-users, and I find it troubling that they support the government's rights over the people's in the name of the people's rights over the government. Conservatives are interested in security, and security comes at the expense of liberty. If I can't bring a nail-clipper onto an airplane, then my liberties have decreased while security has increased. That balance cannot be broken; great thinkers have been discussing this balance for thousands of years and it doesn't change, doesn't suddenly become a modern issue now that we have guns, the internet, and airplanes.

I might have the internet these days, but I don't have my dignity.

[A sidenote on paruresis, it's likely that a large portion has this condition in at least small amounts. For example, many people undertaking urinalysis find that they need to ingest large amounts of water to perform. This can only be paruresis, because the bladder constantly produces urine and the amount needed for the test is quite small. The problem is that some people have a more acute experience of it. Whether this is "normal" or "abnormal" remains to be seen, since it makes sense that we would have evolved with a heightened sense of anxiety while urinating and defecating because of our vulnerability while being distracted with the process. The phenomenon is visible in animals as well. I can perform music on stage, but I cannot urinate in front of people. I think it is a stretch to say I have a problem with anxiety and need to be drugged for it, even though it is a severe inconvenience - but that inconvenience is mostly based on the way we pack people into restrooms like sardines as opposed to a more natural setting!]
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?
Anonymous
1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.
Anonymous
1/12/2017 11:50:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 10:36:23 PM, Devilry wrote:
Dude... lol.

Do you guys have to piss in a cup at every turn out in Ireland? It's fuxing sickening out here, you can't answer telephones for a living without them sending you in the room with your penis out to provide urine. We are sick fux out here badger, if my daughter wasn't keeping me here I would have come out to Ireland a long time ago to see what the good life is about...
Devilry
Posts: 5,099
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 12:28:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 11:50:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:36:23 PM, Devilry wrote:
Dude... lol.

Do you guys have to piss in a cup at every turn out in Ireland? It's fuxing sickening out here, you can't answer telephones for a living without them sending you in the room with your penis out to provide urine. We are sick fux out here badger, if my daughter wasn't keeping me here I would have come out to Ireland a long time ago to see what the good life is about...

Not at every turn mate, lol. I've had to get it out and fill up the cup for a few medicals though. An electrician myself, actually. I hope you figure it out.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 12:33:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

Dude I used infinitely for a reason: cost and accuracy. I actually had some empathy for you till the pedantic bs.
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 1:07:10 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

Hope you submitted your request in writing. Drug tests I'm my experience are either regular or done because a more legetimate excuse is sought after to fire someone
Anonymous
1/13/2017 1:44:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 12:28:47 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:50:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:36:23 PM, Devilry wrote:
Dude... lol.

Do you guys have to piss in a cup at every turn out in Ireland? It's fuxing sickening out here, you can't answer telephones for a living without them sending you in the room with your penis out to provide urine. We are sick fux out here badger, if my daughter wasn't keeping me here I would have come out to Ireland a long time ago to see what the good life is about...

Not at every turn mate, lol. I've had to get it out and fill up the cup for a few medicals though. An electrician myself, actually. I hope you figure it out.

Americans are obsessed with anti-drug culture, it's funny because cannabis is just about the only thing you are going to catch if you test. Of course it's just assumed that cannabis is dangerous enough anyway ;)

Sick fux in this country man. They want you to present your penis and urinate on demand to make sure you aren't smoking the devil's plant, so you can lose your job and get pushed to the margins of society. Then, from the margins, with no job and a criminal record, they will blame you for not being successful. A police chief in California once said it best from the conservative viewpoint: "casual drug users should be taken out and shot." After all, we are fighting a war on drugs. And if you are on the opposite side in the war, well...
Anonymous
1/13/2017 1:47:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 12:33:19 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

Dude I used infinitely for a reason: cost and accuracy. I actually had some empathy for you till the pedantic bs.

That is nonsensical. Other tests are more accurate, but "infinitely" is a poor adjective. Hair, saliva, and bloodwork are much more accurate and harder to fake. Urinalysis is not only inaccurate (people sometimes pass them while high) but also its pretty easy to dump synthetic urine or just have somebody else pee in a cup.

As far as cost, "infinite" is again completely illogical. Its like $40 a test for urinalysis I believe, and others go up in price until you hit the hair follicle one which is probably about a hundred bucks more than that (I'm not looking up the numbers, you can if you'd like). I offered to pay the difference in cost if they were willing to give me the chance to take a different test.
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 3:23:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

first blood is no good as the metabolites are excreted via urine, urine is the best sample, hair, again isn't a proper sample for this testing as the testing methods for that are ultra sensitive and would much too sensitive. I've collected many chain of custody urine samples for pre-employment, post accident, random etc.
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 3:42:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 1:47:48 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/13/2017 12:33:19 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

Dude I used infinitely for a reason: cost and accuracy. I actually had some empathy for you till the pedantic bs.

That is nonsensical. Other tests are more accurate, but "infinitely" is a poor adjective. Hair, saliva, and bloodwork are much more accurate and harder to fake. Urinalysis is not only inaccurate (people sometimes pass them while high) but also its pretty easy to dump synthetic urine or just have somebody else pee in a cup.

As far as cost, "infinite" is again completely illogical. Its like $40 a test for urinalysis I believe, and others go up in price until you hit the hair follicle one which is probably about a hundred bucks more than that (I'm not looking up the numbers, you can if you'd like). I offered to pay the difference in cost if they were willing to give me the chance to take a different test.

You are apparently reading what you want vs what's said. Urine is the cheapest and least reliable due to metabolites.

Sounds like you want to be a victim. Enjoy.
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 3:47:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 3:23:12 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

first blood is no good as the metabolites are excreted via urine, urine is the best sample, hair, again isn't a proper sample for this testing as the testing methods for that are ultra sensitive and would much too sensitive. I've collected many chain of custody urine samples for pre-employment, post accident, random etc.

Blood leads to a lot less false positives especially for benzo's and synth opiates.

You are the only other person to mention metabolites. Lol. What's up with people these days? Hell masking agents are pretty easily detected depending on the panel paid for which, as you know, is usually the cheapest.
Bennett91
Posts: 8,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 6:00:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/12/2017 10:26:07 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:


Sorry to hear you lost your job. But according to your profile you're in the marijuana party, perhaps there's another reason you don't want to be tested hue hue.
The Prophet Sanders preaching the Word [][]
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 6:46:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 6:00:05 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:26:07 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:


Sorry to hear you lost your job. But according to your profile you're in the marijuana party, perhaps there's another reason you don't want to be tested hue hue.

You should try getting laid, preferably with a human.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Bennett91
Posts: 8,093
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 6:48:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 6:46:52 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 1/13/2017 6:00:05 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:26:07 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:


Sorry to hear you lost your job. But according to your profile you're in the marijuana party, perhaps there's another reason you don't want to be tested hue hue.

You should try getting laid, preferably with a human.

lol stop projecting parakeet.
The Prophet Sanders preaching the Word [][]
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 6:49:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 6:48:15 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 6:46:52 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 1/13/2017 6:00:05 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:26:07 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:


Sorry to hear you lost your job. But according to your profile you're in the marijuana party, perhaps there's another reason you don't want to be tested hue hue.

You should try getting laid, preferably with a human.

lol stop projecting parakeet.

>:D
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Heterodox
Posts: 430
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 7:09:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have the same problem.

However, several times in my past I have been required to provide a urine sample, usually it involves me drinking absolutely huge amounts of water (gallons) and sitting around for hours.

Some times they won't allow you to drink water, because they say it would impact the results if you drink more than so much. On those occasions I have to reschedule it so that I can drink the water at home prior. I try to make sure I can reschedule it before even going, because sometimes they won't allow you to, and if they won't allow you to and they won't allow you to drink water...

While I think it's a bit ridiculous just how many places require testing, I think it's fine if the companies want to have such policies, after all you are the one choosing to be employed by them, you can always refuse employment. If it was not a choice, say if it was required to purchase a gun or exercise any of your rights, then I would have serious serious issues with it.

Should probably also mention, that I am very anti-social and have some sort of social anxiety issues (obviously I don't know exactly what, because I will not go to a doctor for the very reason mentioned). I really don't like being anywhere where there are too many people and I avoid crowded areas, if at all possible.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 11:53:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.

Detox flushing works just fine.
There is a 6 hour window of opportunity for the testing, before your system returns to normal. The better ones work for the hard drugs as well as cannabis.

My employment requires urinalysis when the job is offered, before hire.
You are notified of job offer, then have 72 hours to be tested.
After I gave my sample, the lab tech looked at the cup and said "Congratulations on your new job."
I assume because it was dark (undiluted), she was confident I was clean.

If the employer has reasons, they can require retesing at any time.

They do not test for caffeine, alcohol, or nootropics.
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 1:38:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 3:47:34 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:23:12 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

first blood is no good as the metabolites are excreted via urine, urine is the best sample, hair, again isn't a proper sample for this testing as the testing methods for that are ultra sensitive and would much too sensitive. I've collected many chain of custody urine samples for pre-employment, post accident, random etc.

Blood leads to a lot less false positives especially for benzo's and synth opiates.

You are the only other person to mention metabolites. Lol. What's up with people these days? Hell masking agents are pretty easily detected depending on the panel paid for which, as you know, is usually the cheapest.

positives should be confirmed by gas chromatography mass spectrometry, so any true false positive would be extremely rare if not impossible with that methodology.
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 1:47:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 1:38:38 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:47:34 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:23:12 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

first blood is no good as the metabolites are excreted via urine, urine is the best sample, hair, again isn't a proper sample for this testing as the testing methods for that are ultra sensitive and would much too sensitive. I've collected many chain of custody urine samples for pre-employment, post accident, random etc.

Blood leads to a lot less false positives especially for benzo's and synth opiates.

You are the only other person to mention metabolites. Lol. What's up with people these days? Hell masking agents are pretty easily detected depending on the panel paid for which, as you know, is usually the cheapest.

positives should be confirmed by gas chromatography mass spectrometry, so any true false positive would be extremely rare if not impossible with that methodology.

Absolutely. Most requests don't include for the redundancy from my experience (military, work with labs, employment hiring/request to Labcorps-Quest).

Is that correct in your experience?
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 1:48:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 11:53:23 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.

Detox flushing works just fine.
There is a 6 hour window of opportunity for the testing, before your system returns to normal. The better ones work for the hard drugs as well as cannabis.

My employment requires urinalysis when the job is offered, before hire.
You are notified of job offer, then have 72 hours to be tested.
After I gave my sample, the lab tech looked at the cup and said "Congratulations on your new job."
I assume because it was dark (undiluted), she was confident I was clean.

If the employer has reasons, they can require retesing at any time.

They do not test for caffeine, alcohol, or nootropics.

it depends on the test, they test urine creatinine which the flushes lower below "compatible with human life" levels, they also may check the specific gravity and ph. If they really did work someone would be making many millions and yet you don't hear about that and they are sold at gas stations so I'm very skeptical. I've seen many reports over the last 20+ years.
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 1:51:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 1:47:18 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 1:38:38 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:47:34 AM, Stymie13 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:23:12 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

first blood is no good as the metabolites are excreted via urine, urine is the best sample, hair, again isn't a proper sample for this testing as the testing methods for that are ultra sensitive and would much too sensitive. I've collected many chain of custody urine samples for pre-employment, post accident, random etc.

Blood leads to a lot less false positives especially for benzo's and synth opiates.

You are the only other person to mention metabolites. Lol. What's up with people these days? Hell masking agents are pretty easily detected depending on the panel paid for which, as you know, is usually the cheapest.

positives should be confirmed by gas chromatography mass spectrometry, so any true false positive would be extremely rare if not impossible with that methodology.

Absolutely. Most requests don't include for the redundancy from my experience (military, work with labs, employment hiring/request to Labcorps-Quest).

Is that correct in your experience?

it depends, people who are under a narcotic contract are and should have all positives confirmed, Sears and Walmart had theirs setup to confirm positives, you almost have to if there are consequences for failing it. My employer now does mouth swabs instead of the urine, not nearly as good, but much faster and cheaper. IMO they do this for insurance purposes, in case you get hurt and it probably lowers their workman's comp insurance if they pre screen.
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 4:11:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 1:48:51 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 11:53:23 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.

Detox flushing works just fine.
There is a 6 hour window of opportunity for the testing, before your system returns to normal. The better ones work for the hard drugs as well as cannabis.

My employment requires urinalysis when the job is offered, before hire.
You are notified of job offer, then have 72 hours to be tested.
After I gave my sample, the lab tech looked at the cup and said "Congratulations on your new job."
I assume because it was dark (undiluted), she was confident I was clean.

If the employer has reasons, they can require retesing at any time.

They do not test for caffeine, alcohol, or nootropics.

it depends on the test, they test urine creatinine which the flushes lower below "compatible with human life" levels, they also may check the specific gravity and ph. If they really did work someone would be making many millions and yet you don't hear about that and they are sold at gas stations so I'm very skeptical. I've seen many reports over the last 20+ years.

I looked around the net to update my information, which was 15-20 years old.
I passed a life insurance test back then.
Testing techniques improve, expensive tests become cheaper, so I will defer to you on this one.
The best information I found said herbal flushes are not effect.
Thanks
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 5:02:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 4:11:56 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/13/2017 1:48:51 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 11:53:23 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.

Detox flushing works just fine.
There is a 6 hour window of opportunity for the testing, before your system returns to normal. The better ones work for the hard drugs as well as cannabis.

My employment requires urinalysis when the job is offered, before hire.
You are notified of job offer, then have 72 hours to be tested.
After I gave my sample, the lab tech looked at the cup and said "Congratulations on your new job."
I assume because it was dark (undiluted), she was confident I was clean.

If the employer has reasons, they can require retesing at any time.

They do not test for caffeine, alcohol, or nootropics.

it depends on the test, they test urine creatinine which the flushes lower below "compatible with human life" levels, they also may check the specific gravity and ph. If they really did work someone would be making many millions and yet you don't hear about that and they are sold at gas stations so I'm very skeptical. I've seen many reports over the last 20+ years.

I looked around the net to update my information, which was 15-20 years old.
I passed a life insurance test back then.
Testing techniques improve, expensive tests become cheaper, so I will defer to you on this one.
The best information I found said herbal flushes are not effect.
Thanks

some did work back then, but the industry got wise to it pretty quickly, that's not to say there aren't things you can do, though there's not many, bribing the one supervising the collection is probably your best bet, just make sure you bring a clean urine with you lol.
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
Anonymous
1/13/2017 6:00:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The effectiveness of the test is directly proportional to the money the employer spends on it. I passed my last test with synthetic urine, because my employer wished to spend the least amount of money possible per test (around $40 per test I believe). If the employer dumps in more money, then more tests will be performed on each sample to detect things like whether the urine is synthetic or not. The point is that the construction industry needs to provide a drug-free product, and the current definition of that is to simply do drug-testing - it doesn't require the use ofexpensive drug testing. So most employers don't waste the money since they don't technically need to. That means synthetic urine works in most instances. Also, a casual cannabis user, provided they aren't overdoing it, can usually pass a test by simply drinking lots of water and diluting the sample in combination with making sure they urinate at least once before they take the test in the morning (that first urination is an almost certain detection). Flushes also work well for the same reason, although I think they are mostly a scam because it is the water doing all the work, not the chemicals in the box.
Anonymous
1/13/2017 6:06:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.

You are not allowed to bring anything inside the room, and hearing protection would be not only barred but ineffective at calming me. If I know I can be heard then stifling my own hearing is ineffective. I could theoretically self-catheterize by illegally taking a catheter in the room with me... You know, that's a good point... I am going to call them and ask them if I have the option for them to catheterize me in the future. They seemed so unwilling to offer me any alternatives, I didn't think of that. Thanks for the idea!
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 6:16:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 5:02:20 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 4:11:56 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/13/2017 1:48:51 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/13/2017 11:53:23 AM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.

Detox flushing works just fine.
There is a 6 hour window of opportunity for the testing, before your system returns to normal. The better ones work for the hard drugs as well as cannabis.

My employment requires urinalysis when the job is offered, before hire.
You are notified of job offer, then have 72 hours to be tested.
After I gave my sample, the lab tech looked at the cup and said "Congratulations on your new job."
I assume because it was dark (undiluted), she was confident I was clean.

If the employer has reasons, they can require retesing at any time.

They do not test for caffeine, alcohol, or nootropics.

it depends on the test, they test urine creatinine which the flushes lower below "compatible with human life" levels, they also may check the specific gravity and ph. If they really did work someone would be making many millions and yet you don't hear about that and they are sold at gas stations so I'm very skeptical. I've seen many reports over the last 20+ years.

I looked around the net to update my information, which was 15-20 years old.
I passed a life insurance test back then.
Testing techniques improve, expensive tests become cheaper, so I will defer to you on this one.
The best information I found said herbal flushes are not effect.
Thanks

some did work back then, but the industry got wise to it pretty quickly, that's not to say there aren't things you can do, though there's not many, bribing the one supervising the collection is probably your best bet, just make sure you bring a clean urine with you lol.

Your advice is the best! Lol

Or have testers at labcorp/quest on speed dial along with c.o.c. Paperwork.

What's up with the new bottles that react instantly with the metabolites in urine? Not the old thermometers for body temp variance but these do a color change.
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/13/2017 6:32:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/13/2017 6:06:03 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/13/2017 3:27:44 AM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 1/12/2017 11:47:51 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 1/12/2017 10:48:26 PM, Stymie13 wrote:
Strange indeed. So.... you offered to pay for a blood/hair test, infinitely more expensive and accurate and your employer said no?

Well assuming you didn't mean to say "infinitely more expensive" then my answer would be "yes."

Other methods are more expensive, which is why urinalysis is employed despite it being much less accurate and much easier to cheat. Any construction worker can do all the drugs they want and simply keep a package of synthetic urine in their toolbox just in case they are tested. Its possible I could be forced to do the same, however I am working with my union rep right now and he is working the process right now to see if I can be tested another way. The situation gets more complex because I work through a union hall which gets me a union contractor to work for who then is overseen by a construction company. Its the latter construction company who is digging in their heels and causing me the problems.

it's almost impossible to beat the test if the collection methods are done correctly fyi, the fake urine doesn't work. If you get to try again, bring some hearing protection or head phones. Some nurses may offer to catheterize you. There is NO reason for them to turn off the cold water as the cup should have a thermometer on it. Had may a dumb a$$ hand me a cold cup.

You are not allowed to bring anything inside the room, and hearing protection would be not only barred but ineffective at calming me. If I know I can be heard then stifling my own hearing is ineffective. I could theoretically self-catheterize by illegally taking a catheter in the room with me... You know, that's a good point... I am going to call them and ask them if I have the option for them to catheterize me in the future. They seemed so unwilling to offer me any alternatives, I didn't think of that. Thanks for the idea!

good luck, I don't like to hear people or have them hear me when in the bathroom either, though it's as bad as what you go through, but I still don't like it at all, best of luck.
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.