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Let the trade wars begin!

Raisor
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1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.
We gonna pull up like the ice cream truck
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
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1/26/2017 9:11:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

he did say he would do that.....
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,693
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1/27/2017 4:01:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Lol
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Greyparrot
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1/27/2017 4:21:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Well if you trust the press, he is lying about a tariff and the wall.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,514
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1/27/2017 4:49:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Raise the tariffs, trade war now!
"Partout ou vous verrez un autel, la se trouve la civilisation."
- Joseph de Maistre -

"Woe that I live in bitter days,
As God is setting like a sun
And in his place, as lord and slave,
Man raises forth his heinous throne."
- Translation of 'Rhyfel', by Hedd Wyn -

Virtutem videant intabescantque relicta
imabench
Posts: 20,542
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1/27/2017 7:59:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

How amazing is it that Trump promises to make Mexico pay for the wall, and then does the one thing that ensures that the American people themselves, not even the US government, pays for it.

I wonder how long it will take them to realize how stupid they actually are. My guess is never.
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Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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1/27/2017 8:49:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 4:49:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Raise the tariffs, trade war now!

And after the trade wars...GALACTIC TRUMP EMPIRE!
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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1/27/2017 8:51:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 4:01:24 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Lol
It's really a tax on American flag burning, Mexican flag waving, Mexican supporters that refuse to buy American goods.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
slo1
Posts: 5,200
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1/27/2017 1:44:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 4:21:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Well if you trust the press, he is lying about a tariff and the wall.

It was his supporters who consistently said that you can't take Trump literally.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,514
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1/27/2017 2:51:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
In all seriousness, the idea that consumers will pay this tax is just economically illiterate. It doesn't shift the supply curve in the same way that a flat out tax does because it only affects goods coming from Mexico. The effect will be that it will shift the flow of imports to another country, and the price may bump up a bit. In the end it's just going to hurt Mexico while affecting us lightly; the entire point is to slap Mexico in the face with our dick and remind them that we hold all of the power in this relationship.
"Partout ou vous verrez un autel, la se trouve la civilisation."
- Joseph de Maistre -

"Woe that I live in bitter days,
As God is setting like a sun
And in his place, as lord and slave,
Man raises forth his heinous throne."
- Translation of 'Rhyfel', by Hedd Wyn -

Virtutem videant intabescantque relicta
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,514
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1/27/2017 2:54:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 8:49:55 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 1/27/2017 4:49:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Raise the tariffs, trade war now!

And after the trade wars...GALACTIC TRUMP EMPIRE!

Someone should do a Trump parody of The Revenge of the Sith.
"Partout ou vous verrez un autel, la se trouve la civilisation."
- Joseph de Maistre -

"Woe that I live in bitter days,
As God is setting like a sun
And in his place, as lord and slave,
Man raises forth his heinous throne."
- Translation of 'Rhyfel', by Hedd Wyn -

Virtutem videant intabescantque relicta
kevin24018
Posts: 6,891
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1/27/2017 3:06:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 2:51:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
In all seriousness, the idea that consumers will pay this tax is just economically illiterate. It doesn't shift the supply curve in the same way that a flat out tax does because it only affects goods coming from Mexico. The effect will be that it will shift the flow of imports to another country, and the price may bump up a bit. In the end it's just going to hurt Mexico while affecting us lightly; the entire point is to slap Mexico in the face with our dick and remind them that we hold all of the power in this relationship.

lots of truth to that, what I also suspect though it seems too obvious, is a counter proposal from Mexico to pay for half or a similar negotiation, aka "Art of the Deal"
Bennett91 the liar http://www.debate.org...
Greyparrot
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1/27/2017 4:05:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 1:44:06 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 1/27/2017 4:21:41 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 1/26/2017 9:02:37 PM, Raisor wrote:
https://mobile.nytimes.com...

Trump is proposing a 20% tax on Mexican imports if they refuse to pay for a wall.

What a world we live in.

Well if you trust the press, he is lying about a tariff and the wall.

It was his supporters who consistently said that you can't take Trump literally.

Then you can relax :D
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
thett3
Posts: 15,380
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1/27/2017 4:43:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This displeases the Free Market God.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Raisor
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1/27/2017 4:48:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 2:51:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
In all seriousness, the idea that consumers will pay this tax is just economically illiterate. It doesn't shift the supply curve in the same way that a flat out tax does because it only affects goods coming from Mexico. The effect will be that it will shift the flow of imports to another country, and the price may bump up a bit. In the end it's just going to hurt Mexico while affecting us lightly; the entire point is to slap Mexico in the face with our dick and remind them that we hold all of the power in this relationship.

LOL yeah because companies are super competent at instantly restructuring their supply chains in response to politics. The issue isn't just a matter of "now people will buy their avocados from Florida" it is "now companies need to find a new supplier of brake pads or eat the sudden price increase." A lot of imports are specialized products that people can't just start producing on a whim. Even if they could, companies often can't just open a white pages and pick a new supplier. There are entire companies that just build supply chain management systems for other companies because it is a hard thing to do.

But honestly I don't have a horse in the game- Im not the one who will be most adversely impacted. Part of me wants this to happen just as a test case to prove out economic principles that have been challenged recently. We can argue about theory all we want but when rubber meets the road it will be pretty obvious what the impacts are. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you can impose tariffs without consequences. I doubt it, but if it happened I would admit I was wrong.
We gonna pull up like the ice cream truck
Greyparrot
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1/27/2017 5:45:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 4:43:19 PM, thett3 wrote:
This displeases the Free Market God.

Think of it as Sanctions, Trump style.

Mexico is the new Russia.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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1/27/2017 7:21:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 2:51:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
In all seriousness, the idea that consumers will pay this tax is just economically illiterate. It doesn't shift the supply curve in the same way that a flat out tax does because it only affects goods coming from Mexico. The effect will be that it will shift the flow of imports to another country, and the price may bump up a bit. In the end it's just going to hurt Mexico while affecting us lightly; the entire point is to slap Mexico in the face with our dick and remind them that we hold all of the power in this relationship.

Good luck using this shitty argument when it comes to China.
Raisor
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1/27/2017 7:53:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 7:21:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/27/2017 2:51:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
In all seriousness, the idea that consumers will pay this tax is just economically illiterate. It doesn't shift the supply curve in the same way that a flat out tax does because it only affects goods coming from Mexico. The effect will be that it will shift the flow of imports to another country, and the price may bump up a bit. In the end it's just going to hurt Mexico while affecting us lightly; the entire point is to slap Mexico in the face with our dick and remind them that we hold all of the power in this relationship.

Good luck using this shitty argument when it comes to China.

What, we can just impose tariffs on two of our largest trade partners and then buy our goods elsewhere. I mean I'm sure the actual production capacities of those countries have nothing to do with the volume of trade we do, and I'm sure other Asian countries will be eager to tailor their exports to us after we scrapped a decade long negotiated trade deal.
We gonna pull up like the ice cream truck
Danielle
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1/27/2017 8:28:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 8:22:22 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
I supported Trump and would have voted for him, but I certainly hope he doesn't harm free trade too much...

He specifically campaigned against free trade. That was his only real economic proposal along with traditional tax cuts.
Danielle
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1/27/2017 8:35:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 7:53:23 PM, Raisor wrote:
What, we can just impose tariffs on two of our largest trade partners and then buy our goods elsewhere. I mean I'm sure the actual production capacities of those countries have nothing to do with the volume of trade we do, and I'm sure other Asian countries will be eager to tailor their exports to us after we scrapped a decade long negotiated trade deal.

Fortunately I love carbs.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk...
dylancatlow
Posts: 13,530
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1/27/2017 8:53:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
How exactly do tariffs work? Do they add a sales tax to foreign good sold in the US (paid for my American consumers) in order to discourage consumption of foreign goods, or would Mexican exporters have to pay the US government directly every time they try to sell something here? Either way, it doesn't seem possible to get Mexico to pay without making Americans pay, too. We would just end up having to spend more on Mexican imports, or resort to buying more expensive American goods. I guess it could work if you threaten Mexico with trade policies that are intended to hurt both sides and hope they give in first. Anyway, making Mexico pay for the wall is a symbolic gesture -- so long as his supporters feel like the promise has been kept, it doesn't matter whether it really was.
triangle.128k
Posts: 5,127
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1/27/2017 8:57:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 8:28:00 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/27/2017 8:22:22 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
I supported Trump and would have voted for him, but I certainly hope he doesn't harm free trade too much...

He specifically campaigned against free trade. That was his only real economic proposal along with traditional tax cuts.

I wouldn't mind some tariffs here and there if illegals are deported, regulations are cut, and political correctness ends.
Danielle
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1/27/2017 9:00:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 8:57:53 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 1/27/2017 8:28:00 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/27/2017 8:22:22 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
I supported Trump and would have voted for him, but I certainly hope he doesn't harm free trade too much...

He specifically campaigned against free trade. That was his only real economic proposal along with traditional tax cuts.

I wouldn't mind some tariffs here and there if illegals are deported, regulations are cut, and political correctness ends.

So then don't say you are for free trade or capitalism. You're not.
You're for manipulating the economy to suit your ideological ends.
Also, there's no such thing as "illegals." Acts are illegal, people aren't.
(Deporting illegal immigrants or barring immigration is also not free trade.)
dylancatlow
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1/27/2017 9:09:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I don't understand why liberals like Paul Krugman are making it seem like Trump is resorting to tariffs because he's panicking. When he said he would make Mexico pay, is this not what he had in mind? I just assumed he had something like this planned. That he first asked Mexico to pay nicely was just so that he wouldn't have to deal with accusations (coming from people like Krugman) that he jumped into it without giving Mexico a chance.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,514
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1/27/2017 9:15:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 7:21:36 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/27/2017 2:51:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
In all seriousness, the idea that consumers will pay this tax is just economically illiterate. It doesn't shift the supply curve in the same way that a flat out tax does because it only affects goods coming from Mexico. The effect will be that it will shift the flow of imports to another country, and the price may bump up a bit. In the end it's just going to hurt Mexico while affecting us lightly; the entire point is to slap Mexico in the face with our dick and remind them that we hold all of the power in this relationship.

Good luck using this shitty argument when it comes to China.

China is a bit of a different situation. But my point is that this is a credible threat, it would do way more damage to Mexico than it would to us, and that's why it makes an excellent way to get Mexico back to the table. That's why he included the whole 'we can negotiate it down to 5%' bit. Now Nieto's hands are freed up to meet with Trump, as protests can be met with a response of 'I had to haggle down the tariff.'

This whole thing was just negotiation politics to begin with, and even if it wasn't the market would rebalance within a few years with a small change for us and a devastating effect on Mexico's economy.
"Partout ou vous verrez un autel, la se trouve la civilisation."
- Joseph de Maistre -

"Woe that I live in bitter days,
As God is setting like a sun
And in his place, as lord and slave,
Man raises forth his heinous throne."
- Translation of 'Rhyfel', by Hedd Wyn -

Virtutem videant intabescantque relicta
Stymie13
Posts: 3,119
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1/27/2017 9:19:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 9:09:35 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
I don't understand why liberals like Paul Krugman are making it seem like Trump is resorting to tariffs because he's panicking. When he said he would make Mexico pay, is this not what he had in mind? I just assumed he had something like this planned. That he first asked Mexico to pay nicely was just so that he wouldn't have to deal with accusations (coming from people like Krugman) that he jumped into it without giving Mexico a chance.

Duties (tariffs) are paid at time of import. They can be via the shipping company, FOB, etc...

The stated invoices are reviewed by customs at POE (port of entry or airfield) reviewed, and processed. In the case of a shipping company, they may pay on behalf of the shipper or pass that cost off to the consignee. With the duty/tariff paid to the gov (customs) the amount is due upon delivery.

https://m.dutycalculator.com...

I worked in that field from the US end years ago and it was fun dealing with customs in the Middle East and North Africa. Nowadays it's mostly electronic to expedite processing and delivery. I don't have those stats readily available.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,514
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1/27/2017 9:20:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 4:48:38 PM, Raisor wrote:
At 1/27/2017 2:51:23 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
In all seriousness, the idea that consumers will pay this tax is just economically illiterate. It doesn't shift the supply curve in the same way that a flat out tax does because it only affects goods coming from Mexico. The effect will be that it will shift the flow of imports to another country, and the price may bump up a bit. In the end it's just going to hurt Mexico while affecting us lightly; the entire point is to slap Mexico in the face with our dick and remind them that we hold all of the power in this relationship.

LOL yeah because companies are super competent at instantly restructuring their supply chains in response to politics. The issue isn't just a matter of "now people will buy their avocados from Florida" it is "now companies need to find a new supplier of brake pads or eat the sudden price increase." A lot of imports are specialized products that people can't just start producing on a whim. Even if they could, companies often can't just open a white pages and pick a new supplier. There are entire companies that just build supply chain management systems for other companies because it is a hard thing to do.

But honestly I don't have a horse in the game- Im not the one who will be most adversely impacted. Part of me wants this to happen just as a test case to prove out economic principles that have been challenged recently. We can argue about theory all we want but when rubber meets the road it will be pretty obvious what the impacts are. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong, maybe you can impose tariffs without consequences. I doubt it, but if it happened I would admit I was wrong.

Short-term spikes during restructuring? Sure. But then things would normalize. I don't see our inability to pursue long term gain for fear of short term pain as a positive. It's one of the nastiest flaws in our political system.
"Partout ou vous verrez un autel, la se trouve la civilisation."
- Joseph de Maistre -

"Woe that I live in bitter days,
As God is setting like a sun
And in his place, as lord and slave,
Man raises forth his heinous throne."
- Translation of 'Rhyfel', by Hedd Wyn -

Virtutem videant intabescantque relicta
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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1/27/2017 9:20:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 8:53:15 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
How exactly do tariffs work? Do they add a sales tax to foreign good sold in the US (paid for my American consumers) in order to discourage consumption of foreign goods, or would Mexican exporters have to pay the US government directly every time they try to sell something here?

They are taxes levied onto consumers for choosing those products.

Either way, it doesn't seem possible to get Mexico to pay without making Americans pay, too.

It's not. It never was.

We would just end up having to spend more on Mexican imports, or resort to buying more expensive American goods.

Right, which is why it was always a bad idea.

I guess it could work if you threaten Mexico with trade policies that are intended to hurt both sides and hope they give in first.

So it's about hurting Mexico and not doing what's best for the U.S.? International trade increases the number of goods that consumers can choose from, decreases the cost of those goods through increased competition, and allows domestic industries to ship their products abroad. It also allows foreign countries to grow their own economies. Hurting Mexico isn't going to benefit the U.S. It's only going to encourage more immigration to the U.S. (including illegal immigration that will still occur despite the wall). Plus the U.S. exports to Mexico are double what we export to China; I don't see how straining trade with them is good for anybody except economically illiterate nationalists.

Anyway, making Mexico pay for the wall is a symbolic gesture -- so long as his supporters feel like the promise has been kept, it doesn't matter whether it really was.

The key takeaway here being that his supporters need to FEEL like something good was accomplished, even if it's untrue.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,514
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1/27/2017 9:25:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/27/2017 9:00:46 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/27/2017 8:57:53 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
At 1/27/2017 8:28:00 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 1/27/2017 8:22:22 PM, triangle.128k wrote:
I supported Trump and would have voted for him, but I certainly hope he doesn't harm free trade too much...

He specifically campaigned against free trade. That was his only real economic proposal along with traditional tax cuts.

I wouldn't mind some tariffs here and there if illegals are deported, regulations are cut, and political correctness ends.

So then don't say you are for free trade or capitalism. You're not.
You're for manipulating the economy to suit your ideological ends.
Also, there's no such thing as "illegals." Acts are illegal, people aren't.
(Deporting illegal immigrants or barring immigration is also not free trade.)

The rules of capitalism don't apply to the international environment. There's no 'rulemaker', the system is anarchic, and every action is backed by the soft threat of violence. If someone could force everyone to honor free trade it would work in general. But they can't, so you end up with a economics being overridden by geopolitics.
"Partout ou vous verrez un autel, la se trouve la civilisation."
- Joseph de Maistre -

"Woe that I live in bitter days,
As God is setting like a sun
And in his place, as lord and slave,
Man raises forth his heinous throne."
- Translation of 'Rhyfel', by Hedd Wyn -

Virtutem videant intabescantque relicta

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