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Donald Trump: make the argument

tejretics
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3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Yes, Donald Trump, that guy we talk about all the time here on Debate.org.

I'm aware that a considerable number of the user base supports Trump.

Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.
GoldFyre
Posts: 998
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3/25/2017 2:34:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
He's going to build a wall and make Mexico pay . . . oops, hehe, my monies is being sent for this wall! and them illegals dug under it!
GoldFyre
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3/25/2017 2:39:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
He's going to make American great again! Now dance in the streets with our supreme leader, David Duke!
Romanii
Posts: 5,384
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3/25/2017 3:08:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM, tejretics wrote:
Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.

Nobody can accurately predict what Trump will do as POTUS. Anybody who tells you otherwise is wrong. Trump is an impulsive narcissist without any actual political convictions or moral values. His behavior is guided entirely by a desire for popularity and validation. In other words, it's reactive in nature -- what he does depends on what the people around him do. Whoever does the best job of winning over his loyalty (by appealing to his ego and demonstrating their competence) will ultimately be the one whose agenda gets adopted by Trump, whether that's Steve Bannon, Paul Ryan, Chuck Schumer, or Ivanka Trump. His supporters can also potentially influence his behavior on any given issue, if they make themselves heard.
YYW
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3/25/2017 3:14:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM, tejretics wrote:
Yes, Donald Trump, that guy we talk about all the time here on Debate.org.

I'm aware that a considerable number of the user base supports Trump.

Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.

This is a curious thread, because of how it contrasts with another thread I recently made about people "regretting" voting for Trump. There are plenty of Trump supporters who can come out of the bushes to talk about the emotional reasons they support him. Yet, few, if any however who remain on the "trump train" can articulate coherent reasons why they do, in fact, support him.

Even more curious are those who voted for Trump because they think he is going to protect their freedom. The Republicans in the senate recently voted to reject an FCC regulation that would prevent ISP's from selling their customer's browsing histories without their consent, at Trump's behest. But, people think he supports their rights and freedoms. Online privacy is now basically dead.

Of course Republicans would have had the "freedom" to die from preventable health conditions because they would have lost their insurance, but that thankfully didn't pass. Just wait and see what happens to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, or the banks in general. Dodd Frank, too, is pretty much going to go on the way out. Tax cuts for the richest Americans and corporations are in. Government handouts to oil companies are the new black.

And yet, Republicans think this is good? Even the idiotic union workers in Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and the like who thought he was going to build the Keystone pipeline with US Steel got screwed because, in fact, the Keystone pipeline will NOT be built with US steel, but with the same Chinese steel that Trump used to build his various Trump towers.

Mexico will not pay for the wall, either. The American middle class will. Trump doesn't even understand immigration and has lost every court battle he's started on it, and he will continue to do so. Immigration is going nowhere. The border, though, would be no more secure if the wall was built or not. Oh, and it's not a wall. It's more like a fence.
YYW
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3/25/2017 3:16:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 3:08:32 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM, tejretics wrote:
Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.

Nobody can accurately predict what Trump will do as POTUS.

Democrats predicted that he'd fvck sh!t up, and they have been right.

Anybody who tells you otherwise is wrong.

Nope. Democrats were right.

Trump is an impulsive narcissist without any actual political convictions or moral values. His behavior is guided entirely by a desire for popularity and validation. In other words, it's reactive in nature -- what he does depends on what the people around him do. Whoever does the best job of winning over his loyalty (by appealing to his ego and demonstrating their competence) will ultimately be the one whose agenda gets adopted by Trump, whether that's Steve Bannon, Paul Ryan, Chuck Schumer, or Ivanka Trump. His supporters can also potentially influence his behavior on any given issue, if they make themselves heard.

hahahaha no.

He doesn't care about his supporters in any respect, other than the oil companies and the Russians. He cares about them very much.
Romanii
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3/25/2017 3:57:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 3:16:12 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/25/2017 3:08:32 PM, Romanii wrote:
Nobody can accurately predict what Trump will do as POTUS.
Democrats predicted that he'd fvck sh!t up, and they have been right.

They themselves fulfilled that prediction. Their childish antics and blind obstructionism pushed Trump to the right. Fortunately for them, this AHCA debacle has reduced Trump's confidence in Paul Ryan. It's an opportunity to push Trump to the left. If they're smart, they could turn Trump into the Bill Clinton of the Republican Party. Trump certainly has the ideological malleability for it.
Romanii
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3/25/2017 5:05:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 3:16:12 PM, YYW wrote:
hahahaha no.

Idk why you're disagreeing with me on this. What I said wasn't pro-Trump in any way, and my analysis of his psychology was based partially in stuff you yourself have written in the past. You seem to be opposing what I said simply because it allows for the *possibility* that he might do something good (if the correct people manage to influence him).

He doesn't care about his supporters in any respect,

He cares about them insofar as they continue to support & validate him. Although, admittedly, it might be easier for Trump to influence his supporters than it is for his supporters to influence Trump.

other than the oil companies and the Russians. He cares about them very much.

lol dude. You've correctly criticized people for their overconfident assumption that further investigation won't reveal anything nefarious on the Trump-Russia relationship. Yet you're making the overconfident assumption that further investigation *will* reveal something nefarious on the Trump-Russia relationship. How is that any better?
Quadrunner
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3/25/2017 5:08:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM, tejretics wrote:
Yes, Donald Trump, that guy we talk about all the time here on Debate.org.

I'm aware that a considerable number of the user base supports Trump.

Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.

He is a leftist with a republican base, so that's neat. He is destroying the long held petty devides, and if he burns, both parties have something to point at instead of partisan shinanegans. He broke the image of the left and they'll need to get a new one, so that's nice too.

Don't mistake this for confidence in the man. He hasn't fvcked up worse than Obama though, yet.
tejretics
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3/25/2017 5:11:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:08:34 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
He is a leftist with a republican base, so that's neat.

The idea that he is a "leftist" is illusory. He is a Republican who continues to listen to the establishment, albeit with more influence from business interests and interactions with Russian officials and certain powerful, wealthy individuals (what some people call "oligarchs").

He is destroying the long held petty devides, and if he burns, both parties have something to point at instead of partisan shinanegans. He broke the image of the left and they'll need to get a new one, so that's nice too.

He didn't "break the image of the left" because he is overwhelmingly unpopular, at the moment.

Don't mistake this for confidence in the man. He hasn't fvcked up worse than Obama though, yet.

He undoubtedly will.

The AHCA would have been enough, really.
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.
Quadrunner
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3/25/2017 5:26:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:11:31 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:08:34 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
He is a leftist with a republican base, so that's neat.

The idea that he is a "leftist" is illusory. He is a Republican who continues to listen to the establishment, albeit with more influence from business interests and interactions with Russian officials and certain powerful, wealthy individuals (what some people call "oligarchs").

That is leftist ya goof.

He is destroying the long held petty devides, and if he burns, both parties have something to point at instead of partisan shinanegans. He broke the image of the left and they'll need to get a new one, so that's nice too.

He didn't "break the image of the left" because he is overwhelmingly unpopular, at the moment.

Yes he is. That's not to detract from the rest of the left that has been loosing it's veil.

Don't mistake this for confidence in the man. He hasn't fvcked up worse than Obama though, yet.

He undoubtedly will.

Probably, but who knows what that will bring. Sometimes that helps in the long run. I'm more interested in gerrymandering, and the public is pretty thick headed. Sometimes America needs to burn.

The AHCA would have been enough, really.
GoldFyre
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3/25/2017 5:41:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:26:11 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:11:31 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:08:34 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
He is a leftist with a republican base, so that's neat.

The idea that he is a "leftist" is illusory. He is a Republican who continues to listen to the establishment, albeit with more influence from business interests and interactions with Russian officials and certain powerful, wealthy individuals (what some people call "oligarchs").

That is leftist ya goof.

He is destroying the long held petty devides, and if he burns, both parties have something to point at instead of partisan shinanegans. He broke the image of the left and they'll need to get a new one, so that's nice too.

He didn't "break the image of the left" because he is overwhelmingly unpopular, at the moment.

Yes he is. That's not to detract from the rest of the left that has been loosing it's veil.

Don't mistake this for confidence in the man. He hasn't fvcked up worse than Obama though, yet.

He undoubtedly will.

Probably, but who knows what that will bring. Sometimes that helps in the long run. I'm more interested in gerrymandering, and the public is pretty thick headed. Sometimes America needs to burn.

The AHCA would have been enough, really.

On what grounds is he a leftist? He's defunding all sorts of leftist public programs, jacking up defense, funneling federal money into his businesses at the expense of the poor, promoting racism, deregulating Wall Street, passing bills that get rid of birthright citizenship and passing bills that allow employers to genetically test their employees so that we can have a GATAACA society. That sounds like fascism to me.
YYW
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3/25/2017 5:53:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:05:33 PM, Romanii wrote:
At 3/25/2017 3:16:12 PM, YYW wrote:
hahahaha no.

Idk why you're disagreeing with me on this.

I am disagreeing with you because you made the objectively incorrect claim that no one could predict what Trump would do. In fact, Democrats have predicted exactly what he would do and they have been consistently right.

What I said wasn't pro-Trump in any way, and my analysis of his psychology was based partially in stuff you yourself have written in the past.

This isn't about advancing pro-trump or anti-trump narratives.

You seem to be opposing what I said simply because it allows for the *possibility* that he might do something good (if the correct people manage to influence him).

That's also wrong. I've said in the past that there are several good things that Trump has done and could do. Two that prominently come to mind are infrastructure spending, and nominating Neil Gorsuch. He also could, and likely will, abolish the estate tax, which I have strongly supported for years.

I would encourage you to withdraw from the presumption that the reasons for opposing what Trump is doing is the fact that he is the one who is doing it. I oppose the things which I have criticized him for because they were some combination of idiotic, irrational, and damaging to the United States and its people, if not the world at large.

other than the oil companies and the Russians. He cares about them very much.

lol dude. You've correctly criticized people for their overconfident assumption that further investigation won't reveal anything nefarious on the Trump-Russia relationship.

The writing's on the wall.

Yet you're making the overconfident assumption that further investigation *will* reveal something nefarious on the Trump-Russia relationship.

The Russia investigation HAS revealed nefarious aspects of the Trump-Russia relationship, and it will continue to do so based on the evidence publicly available. There is nothing overconfident at all about what I've said.
Greyparrot
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3/25/2017 5:53:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM, tejretics wrote:
Yes, Donald Trump, that guy we talk about all the time here on Debate.org.

I'm aware that a considerable number of the user base supports Trump.

Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.

http://www.youtube.com...
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
tejretics
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3/25/2017 5:55:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:53:41 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM, tejretics wrote:
Yes, Donald Trump, that guy we talk about all the time here on Debate.org.

I'm aware that a considerable number of the user base supports Trump.

Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.



I'm sure Hitchens would have agreed that Trump is worse than Clinton.
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.
tejretics
Posts: 6,869
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3/25/2017 6:04:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:53:41 PM, Greyparrot wrote:


In fact, as I recall, in 2008, Hitchens said he'd vote for Clinton, though he would dislike it, if she was selected to be the Democrat against any Republican candidate.

Harris talking about it:
http://www.youtube.com...
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.
Greyparrot
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3/25/2017 6:23:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:55:15 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:53:41 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 3/25/2017 1:39:01 PM, tejretics wrote:
Yes, Donald Trump, that guy we talk about all the time here on Debate.org.

I'm aware that a considerable number of the user base supports Trump.

Why do you think Trump is going to, or will, do a good job as the president of the United States? Make the argument.

http://www.youtube.com...

I'm sure Hitchens would have agreed that Trump is worse than Clinton.

it's a relaxing video to listen to on loop.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
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3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 5:41:59 PM, GoldFyre wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:26:11 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:11:31 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:08:34 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
He is a leftist with a republican base, so that's neat.

The idea that he is a "leftist" is illusory. He is a Republican who continues to listen to the establishment, albeit with more influence from business interests and interactions with Russian officials and certain powerful, wealthy individuals (what some people call "oligarchs").

That is leftist ya goof.

He is destroying the long held petty devides, and if he burns, both parties have something to point at instead of partisan shinanegans. He broke the image of the left and they'll need to get a new one, so that's nice too.

He didn't "break the image of the left" because he is overwhelmingly unpopular, at the moment.

Yes he is. That's not to detract from the rest of the left that has been loosing it's veil.

Don't mistake this for confidence in the man. He hasn't fvcked up worse than Obama though, yet.

He undoubtedly will.

Probably, but who knows what that will bring. Sometimes that helps in the long run. I'm more interested in gerrymandering, and the public is pretty thick headed. Sometimes America needs to burn.

The AHCA would have been enough, really.

On what grounds is he a leftist? He's defunding all sorts of leftist public programs, jacking up defense, funneling federal money into his businesses at the expense of the poor, promoting racism, deregulating Wall Street, passing bills that get rid of birthright citizenship and passing bills that allow employers to genetically test their employees so that we can have a GATAACA society. That sounds like fascism to me.

He's maintaining the artificial economy, continues military industrial complex, advocates government control on the population and foreign trade, federally manipulated health care, Believes strongly in infrastructural influence. Believes in stimulus. Believes in promising everything to everyone. He's very at home on the left. He is a Democrat without the endless claims of inclusion.

I mean, if he's cutting the fat as he sees it for his ambitions that doesn't make him right wing. He isnt far left like bernie, but The only reason he's a republican is because he's pro-life and you can't run a democratic campaign with that anymore, and maybe because republicans fit his demographic's better.
GoldFyre
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3/25/2017 6:30:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:41:59 PM, GoldFyre wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:26:11 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:11:31 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 5:08:34 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
He is a leftist with a republican base, so that's neat.

The idea that he is a "leftist" is illusory. He is a Republican who continues to listen to the establishment, albeit with more influence from business interests and interactions with Russian officials and certain powerful, wealthy individuals (what some people call "oligarchs").

That is leftist ya goof.

He is destroying the long held petty devides, and if he burns, both parties have something to point at instead of partisan shinanegans. He broke the image of the left and they'll need to get a new one, so that's nice too.

He didn't "break the image of the left" because he is overwhelmingly unpopular, at the moment.

Yes he is. That's not to detract from the rest of the left that has been loosing it's veil.

Don't mistake this for confidence in the man. He hasn't fvcked up worse than Obama though, yet.

He undoubtedly will.

Probably, but who knows what that will bring. Sometimes that helps in the long run. I'm more interested in gerrymandering, and the public is pretty thick headed. Sometimes America needs to burn.

The AHCA would have been enough, really.

On what grounds is he a leftist? He's defunding all sorts of leftist public programs, jacking up defense, funneling federal money into his businesses at the expense of the poor, promoting racism, deregulating Wall Street, passing bills that get rid of birthright citizenship and passing bills that allow employers to genetically test their employees so that we can have a GATAACA society. That sounds like fascism to me.

He's maintaining the artificial economy, continues military industrial complex, advocates government control on the population and foreign trade, federally manipulated health care, Believes strongly in infrastructural influence. Believes in stimulus. Believes in promising everything to everyone. He's very at home on the left. He is a Democrat without the endless claims of inclusion.

I mean, if he's cutting the fat as he sees it for his ambitions that doesn't make him right wing. He isnt far left like bernie, but The only reason he's a republican is because he's pro-life and you can't run a democratic campaign with that anymore, and maybe because republicans fit his demographic's better.

According to your ideas of left and right, the Republican Party would be a left winged party
tejretics
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3/25/2017 6:40:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Continues military industrial complex

That's a phenomenon across both main parties in the United States, but is generally considered right wing.

advocates government control on the population and foreign trade

Regulations are not inherently leftist.

Federally manipulated health care

The alternative, i.e. 100% free market healthcare, is extremist and far right. Most of the political right supports some level of federal influence over healthcare.

He is a Democrat without the endless claims of inclusion.

He supports tax cuts, increased privatization of healthcare, reducing environmental regulations substantially, anti LGBT rights legislation, supports torture, isn't a huge fan of most social programs, abortion bans, the War on Drugs, school choice, the dismantling of Dodd Frank, financial deregulation, and right to work laws. His views reflect the mainstream Republican views on almost everything with the sole exception of trade. That's the *only* exception.

I mean, if he's cutting the fat as he sees it for his ambitions that doesn't make him right wing. He isnt far left like bernie, but The only reason he's a republican is because he's pro-life and you can't run a democratic campaign with that anymore, and maybe because republicans fit his demographic's better.

Sanders wasn't far-left by any reasonable standards. But even if he was, Trump would be considered right-wing.
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.
tejretics
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3/25/2017 6:41:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 6:40:18 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Continues military industrial complex

That's a phenomenon across both main parties in the United States, but is generally considered right wing.

advocates government control on the population and foreign trade

Regulations are not inherently leftist.

Federally manipulated health care

The alternative, i.e. 100% free market healthcare, is extremist and far right. Most of the political right supports some level of federal influence over healthcare.

He is a Democrat without the endless claims of inclusion.

He supports tax cuts, increased privatization of healthcare, reducing environmental regulations substantially, anti LGBT rights legislation, torture, reducing the scope of social programs, abortion bans, the War on Drugs, school choice, the dismantling of Dodd Frank, financial deregulation, and right to work laws. His views reflect the mainstream Republican views on almost everything with the sole exception of trade. That's the *only* exception.

I mean, if he's cutting the fat as he sees it for his ambitions that doesn't make him right wing. He isnt far left like bernie, but The only reason he's a republican is because he's pro-life and you can't run a democratic campaign with that anymore, and maybe because republicans fit his demographic's better.

Sanders wasn't far-left by any reasonable standards. But even if he was, Trump would be considered right-wing.

Edited for clarity.
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tejretics
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3/25/2017 7:16:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is what I told Romanii over PM, and I thought I'd post it here:

I think it's definitely possible to predict what Trump will do if we are able to judge his motivations/incentives.

Those incentives come down, really, to (1) whatever the GOP establishment tells him to do; (2) his advisers, who in turn are heavily influenced by things like Big Oil [the influence corporations have on Trump is much larger than your average Democrat or Republican, through his advisers; see, generally, his Secretary of State] and possibly have vested interests in advancing Russian policy; and (3) his own business interests in various regions, such as, I think, Saudi Arabia.

Because of the first two factors, I think Trump's domestic policy will not differ substantially from what the average Republican supported pre Trump, but his foreign policy will undoubtedly involve advancing Russian interests and possibly harming American interests in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia (specifically China) in the process. The GOP will also push him to try and renegotiate the Iran Deal, and to get out of the Paris Agreement, and to be harsher on Cuba. (All of these are probably harmful to American interests, the interests of other actors in the regions in question other than the Kremlin (whether it benefits the Russian people is a different question altogether) and maybe Beijing.)

While Trump definitely shifts his views a lot, I think he has certain policies that will broadly mirror a framework of sentiment among the GOP at large, Russian interests, his own business interests, and Big Oil (i.e. companies like Exxon) generally.
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.
Quadrunner
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3/25/2017 7:33:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 6:40:18 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Continues military industrial complex

That's a phenomenon across both main parties in the United States, but is generally considered right wing.

That's bullsh!t. Pure prejudice. If someone on the right supports it that doesn't take away from the fact that it puts you further left.

advocates government control on the population and foreign trade

Regulations are not inherently leftist.

This depends on what filter you choose to use. There is a sect of democrats that tend to talk like the right (republicans) is evil and any evil regulation is on the right while only the good ones are on the left (democrats) That's not how it is though. Left and right is independent of partisanship.

Federally manipulated health care

The alternative, i.e. 100% free market healthcare, is extremist and far right. Most of the political right supports some level of federal influence over healthcare.

No its not. Don't be silly. It would be pretty right though, and you are taking this out of context because he's essentially maintaining Obamacare.

He is a Democrat without the endless claims of inclusion.

He supports tax cuts,

In conjunction with tariffs

increased privatization of healthcare,

Less left then destroying private healthcare but more than left than presidents before obama. Still left

reducing environmental regulations substantially,

Less left

anti LGBT rights legislation,

Redundant

supports torture,

More left

isn't a huge fan of most social programs,

Unsubstantiated

abortion bans,

More left

the War on Drugs,

Definitely more left. Are you kidding me?

school choice,

More right

the dismantling of Dodd Frank,

More right, but again....

financial deregulation,

More right

and right to work laws

No comment

His views reflect the mainstream Republican views on almost everything with the sole exception of trade. That's the *only* exception.


I mean, if he's cutting the fat as he sees it for his ambitions that doesn't make him right wing. He isnt far left like bernie, but The only reason he's a republican is because he's pro-life and you can't run a democratic campaign with that anymore, and maybe because republicans fit his demographic's better.

Sanders wasn't far-left by any reasonable standards. But even if he was, Trump would be considered right-wing.

Well yes you are right, bUT he is pretty deep by the American standard. Trump is not right wing. He is left and the only reason you can't see that is because the politics have Polorized in recent years and you associate left with pelosi.
tejretics
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3/25/2017 7:44:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 7:33:30 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:40:18 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Continues military industrial complex

That's a phenomenon across both main parties in the United States, but is generally considered right wing.

That's bullsh!t. Pure prejudice. If someone on the right supports it that doesn't take away from the fact that it puts you further left.

Wrong.

This depends on what filter you choose to use. There is a sect of democrats that tend to talk like the right (republicans) is evil and any evil regulation is on the right while only the good ones are on the left (democrats) That's not how it is though. Left and right is independent of partisanship.

So? Doesn't mean the right wing is anti regulation in general. It supports *less* regulations.

No its not. Don't be silly. It would be pretty right though, and you are taking this out of context because he's essentially maintaining Obamacare.

Obamacare isn't really a left-wing solution. It's a reasonably moderate/centrist solution.

And the AHCA was to remove the individual mandate and create a more regressive one, reduce the progressivity of the tax credit structure, reduce tax credits in general, and curtails Medicaid expansion.

In conjunction with tariffs

He hasn't been clear on what kind of tariffs he supports, and whether those would outweigh the tax cuts.

increased privatization of healthcare,

Less left then destroying private healthcare but more than left than presidents before obama. Still left

Left of George Bush is not left-wing.

Consider any pre-Nixon Republican, at all, or consider any right-wing party outside the United States. In fact, the 1990s healthcare plan of the GOP was very similar to Obamacare.

Torture
More left

What do you think "left wing" means?

isn't a huge fan of most social programs,

Unsubstantiated

Have you heard of Google?

abortion bans,

More left

Once more, you haven't understood what "left wing" is.

the War on Drugs,

Definitely more left. Are you kidding me?

Left-wing is not the same as "curtailing individual liberties."

Well yes you are right, bUT he is pretty deep by the American standard. Trump is not right wing. He is left and the only reason you can't see that is because the politics have Polorized in recent years and you associate left with pelosi.

The recent years? Look, generally, to the political spectrum prior to Nixon. Eisenhower would be considered far-left today. He was a conservative. Obama is only slightly to the left of Bush I. Also, look to how the political spectrum is in the overwhelming majority of the developed world, e.g. nearly every European country. The Conservative Party in the UK supports maintaining the NHS, supports LGBT rights, and so on, all of which would be considered far left in the United States. Look to German politics. Even French politics: Le Pen supports the universal healthcare that France has.

Also, the overarching problem is your understanding of the distinction between "leftist" and "right-wing." The left wing tends to support less government intervention in non-economic forms, e.g. individual privacy, drug usage, abortion, but supports policies of stark egalitarianism, redistribution, equitable distribution of resources, and increased regulation. The far left is primarily anarchist. The right wing tends to support economic liberalism, i.e. lower gov't regulations but typically, depending on the context of the society, not nonexistent ones, and only a very minimal framework for living (which in certain contexts may even include support for single-payer healthcare, e.g. Norway, the UK). The very far right supports a massive free market, large-scale privatization, weighing security interests and culture over civil liberties, and protection of collective identity as opposed to egalitarianism.
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.
Swagnarok
Posts: 2,020
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3/25/2017 8:11:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
We're a little over two months into his Presidency, so a lot could happen, but so far...

-The economy's booming like it hasn't been in a long time.
-He's proven himself moderate enough to say that if the AHCA wasn't passed then he wouldn't push for a repeal of the ACA, even though it wouldn't have been a radical position to push for "repeal, not replace".
-He's made excellent picks for Supreme Court Justice, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State.
-He's yet to use his powers as president to crack down on dissent or to break through the wall of opposition his enemies in Congress and the media have erected. That is, so far he seems to be playing by the rules. It doesn't look like he's done anything to halt the Russia investigations.
-He's eroding the credibility of the media, which is almost always a good thing these days.
-He's enforcing our immigration laws, at long last.
Rest in Peace DDO (2007-2018)
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
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3/25/2017 8:19:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 7:44:50 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 7:33:30 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:40:18 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Continues military industrial complex

That's a phenomenon across both main parties in the United States, but is generally considered right wing.

That's bullsh!t. Pure prejudice. If someone on the right supports it that doesn't take away from the fact that it puts you further left.

Wrong.

Conceded. I have the prejudice lol.

This depends on what filter you choose to use. There is a sect of democrats that tend to talk like the right (republicans) is evil and any evil regulation is on the right while only the good ones are on the left (democrats) That's not how it is though. Left and right is independent of partisanship.

So? Doesn't mean the right wing is anti regulation in general. It supports *less* regulations.

No its not. Don't be silly. It would be pretty right though, and you are taking this out of context because he's essentially maintaining Obamacare.

Obamacare isn't really a left-wing solution. It's a reasonably moderate/centrist solution.

And the AHCA was to remove the individual mandate and create a more regressive one, reduce the progressivity of the tax credit structure, reduce tax credits in general, and curtails Medicaid expansion.

In conjunction with tariffs

He hasn't been clear on what kind of tariffs he supports, and whether those would outweigh the tax cuts.

increased privatization of healthcare,

Less left then destroying private healthcare but more than left than presidents before obama. Still left

Left of George Bush is not left-wing.

Consider any pre-Nixon Republican, at all, or consider any right-wing party outside the United States. In fact, the 1990s healthcare plan of the GOP was very similar to Obamacare.

Torture
More left

What do you think "left wing" means?

Government integration/control

isn't a huge fan of most social programs,

Unsubstantiated

Have you heard of Google?

abortion bans,

More left

Once more, you haven't understood what "left wing" is.


the War on Drugs,

Definitely more left. Are you kidding me?

Left-wing is not the same as "curtailing individual liberties."


Well yes you are right, bUT he is pretty deep by the American standard. Trump is not right wing. He is left and the only reason you can't see that is because the politics have Polorized in recent years and you associate left with pelosi.

The recent years? Look, generally, to the political spectrum prior to Nixon. Eisenhower would be considered far-left today. He was a conservative.

Obama is only slightly to the left of Bush I. Also, look to how the political spectrum is in the overwhelming majority of the developed world, e.g. nearly every European country. The Conservative Party in the UK supports maintaining the NHS, supports LGBT rights, and so on, all of which would be considered far left in the United States.

Look to German politics. Even French politics: Le Pen supports the universal healthcare that France has.

The Europeans are on an entirely different map. I'm aware.

Also, the overarching problem is your understanding of the distinction between "leftist" and "right-wing." The left wing tends to support less government intervention in non-economic forms, e.g. individual privacy, drug usage, abortion, but supports policies of stark egalitarianism, redistribution, equitable distribution of resources, and increased regulation. The far left is primarily anarchist. The right wing tends to support economic liberalism, i.e. lower gov't regulations but typically, depending on the context of the society, not nonexistent ones, and only a very minimal framework for living (which in certain contexts may even include support for single-payer healthcare, e.g. Norway, the UK). The very far right supports a massive free market, large-scale privatization, weighing security interests and culture over civil liberties, and protection of collective identity as opposed to egalitarianism.

Oh well. I guess you are right about that. I guess I just assumed you were bull sh!ting because this is such an illogical cluster f of a way to look at things. I've always rejected it because it makes no sense to think of left and right, a one dimensional spectrum, in two dimensions. But now I've actually looked into it and it's as old as democracy, so who am I to change it.
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
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3/25/2017 8:21:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 8:19:51 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 7:44:50 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 7:33:30 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:40:18 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 3/25/2017 6:28:16 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Continues military industrial complex

That's a phenomenon across both main parties in the United States, but is generally considered right wing.

That's bullsh!t. Pure prejudice. If someone on the right supports it that doesn't take away from the fact that it puts you further left.

Wrong.

Conceded. I have the prejudice lol.

This depends on what filter you choose to use. There is a sect of democrats that tend to talk like the right (republicans) is evil and any evil regulation is on the right while only the good ones are on the left (democrats) That's not how it is though. Left and right is independent of partisanship.

So? Doesn't mean the right wing is anti regulation in general. It supports *less* regulations.

No its not. Don't be silly. It would be pretty right though, and you are taking this out of context because he's essentially maintaining Obamacare.

Obamacare isn't really a left-wing solution. It's a reasonably moderate/centrist solution.

And the AHCA was to remove the individual mandate and create a more regressive one, reduce the progressivity of the tax credit structure, reduce tax credits in general, and curtails Medicaid expansion.

In conjunction with tariffs

He hasn't been clear on what kind of tariffs he supports, and whether those would outweigh the tax cuts.

increased privatization of healthcare,

Less left then destroying private healthcare but more than left than presidents before obama. Still left

Left of George Bush is not left-wing.

Consider any pre-Nixon Republican, at all, or consider any right-wing party outside the United States. In fact, the 1990s healthcare plan of the GOP was very similar to Obamacare.

Torture
More left

What do you think "left wing" means?

Government integration/control

isn't a huge fan of most social programs,

Unsubstantiated

Have you heard of Google?

abortion bans,

More left

Once more, you haven't understood what "left wing" is.


the War on Drugs,

Definitely more left. Are you kidding me?

Left-wing is not the same as "curtailing individual liberties."


Well yes you are right, bUT he is pretty deep by the American standard. Trump is not right wing. He is left and the only reason you can't see that is because the politics have Polorized in recent years and you associate left with pelosi.

The recent years? Look, generally, to the political spectrum prior to Nixon. Eisenhower would be considered far-left today. He was a conservative.

Obama is only slightly to the left of Bush I. Also, look to how the political spectrum is in the overwhelming majority of the developed world, e.g. nearly every European country. The Conservative Party in the UK supports maintaining the NHS, supports LGBT rights, and so on, all of which would be considered far left in the United States.

Look to German politics. Even French politics: Le Pen supports the universal healthcare that France has.

The Europeans are on an entirely different map. I'm aware.

Also, the overarching problem is your understanding of the distinction between "leftist" and "right-wing." The left wing tends to support less government intervention in non-economic forms, e.g. individual privacy, drug usage, abortion, but supports policies of stark egalitarianism, redistribution, equitable distribution of resources, and increased regulation. The far left is primarily anarchist. The right wing tends to support economic liberalism, i.e. lower gov't regulations but typically, depending on the context of the society, not nonexistent ones, and only a very minimal framework for living (which in certain contexts may even include support for single-payer healthcare, e.g. Norway, the UK). The very far right supports a massive free market, large-scale privatization, weighing security interests and culture over civil liberties, and protection of collective identity as opposed to egalitarianism.

Oh well. I guess you are right about that. I guess I just assumed you were bull sh!ting because this is such an illogical cluster f of a way to look at things. I've always rejected it because it makes no sense to think of left and right, a one dimensional spectrum, in two dimensions. But now I've actually looked into it and it's as old as democracy, so who am I to change it.

As old as *our democracy
GoldFyre
Posts: 998
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3/25/2017 8:25:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 8:11:15 PM, Swagnarok wrote:
We're a little over two months into his Presidency, so a lot could happen, but so far...

-The economy's booming like it hasn't been in a long time.
It was already booming under Obama. It was booming before this man set foot into office. He didn't do anything to promote this. He has passed 0 policies to make the economy boom, and you are giving him credit simply because Obama is black.
-He's proven himself moderate enough to say that if the AHCA wasn't passed then he wouldn't push for a repeal of the ACA, even though it wouldn't have been a radical position to push for "repeal, not replace".
The majority of Americans want some kind of healthcare, so this was only a moderate position in your mind.
-He's made excellent picks for Supreme Court Justice, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State.
Justifications?
-He's yet to use his powers as president to crack down on dissent or to break through the wall of opposition his enemies in Congress and the media have erected.
He's signed executive orders at a higher rate than any other president in history!
That is, so far he seems to be playing by the rules. It doesn't look like he's done anything to halt the Russia investigations.
Except all of the little media sideshows he makes with his outrageous tweets to distract from the issue, like Obama wiretapping Trump tower.
-He's eroding the credibility of the media, which is almost always a good thing these days.
Nobody thinks that the media's credibility is eroded. LMAO. You're under a delusion just like the rest of the populist Nazis. Even my conservative friends think this man is a huckster. My most conservative friend thinks that an independent government commission should be implemented to fact check this man and point out every time he lied.
-He's enforcing our immigration laws, at long last.

Obama deported a ton of people too. Now I don't think that's a good thing, but apparently you do, but I'm guessing he won't get credit because he's black.
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
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3/25/2017 8:28:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/25/2017 8:25:33 PM, GoldFyre wrote:
At 3/25/2017 8:11:15 PM, Swagnarok wrote:
We're a little over two months into his Presidency, so a lot could happen, but so far...

-The economy's booming like it hasn't been in a long time.
It was already booming under Obama. It was booming before this man set foot into office. He didn't do anything to promote this. He has passed 0 policies to make the economy boom, and you are giving him credit simply because Obama is black.
-He's proven himself moderate enough to say that if the AHCA wasn't passed then he wouldn't push for a repeal of the ACA, even though it wouldn't have been a radical position to push for "repeal, not replace".
The majority of Americans want some kind of healthcare, so this was only a moderate position in your mind.
-He's made excellent picks for Supreme Court Justice, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State.
Justifications?
-He's yet to use his powers as president to crack down on dissent or to break through the wall of opposition his enemies in Congress and the media have erected.
He's signed executive orders at a higher rate than any other president in history!
That is, so far he seems to be playing by the rules. It doesn't look like he's done anything to halt the Russia investigations.
Except all of the little media sideshows he makes with his outrageous tweets to distract from the issue, like Obama wiretapping Trump tower.
-He's eroding the credibility of the media, which is almost always a good thing these days.
Nobody thinks that the media's credibility is eroded. LMAO. You're under a delusion just like the rest of the populist Nazis. Even my conservative friends think this man is a huckster. My most conservative friend thinks that an independent government commission should be implemented to fact check this man and point out every time he lied.
-He's enforcing our immigration laws, at long last.

Obama deported a ton of people too. Now I don't think that's a good thing, but apparently you do, but I'm guessing he won't get credit because he's black.

What?? I don't know why but that's hilarious

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