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Unions

Udel2
Posts: 500
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3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?
tajshar2k
Posts: 2,657
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3/28/2017 12:05:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

Unions have good intentions, as their whole purpose is to increase wages for their workers, and to provide more benefits. However the problem arises when the union demands a pay increase for every little thing. Teacher Unions are the worst offenders.

Not to mention they disrupt public services, and really annoy the public.
warren42
Posts: 4,456
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3/28/2017 12:10:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not informed enough, but I hate when unions for things such as construction demand hourly wages. You can just take your time and rake in the cash then. I also hate when they shame companies for using non-union labor. For example, a Dick's Sporting Goods opened near me awhile ago, and they used 90% union labor in its construction, but there were still people protesting it over the 10%.

They are well-intentioned but I'd need more research to have a definitive conclusion.
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
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3/28/2017 12:12:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

Less profit oriented places have really just been my pleasure to work at in general. When among union workers I found it to be the opposite of your relationship. They complain a lot, and I just did my job and enjoyed my life lol. Im sure every environment is different.

As someone who has been gifted with a natural ability to talk with superiors and management, I have developed a tendency of skepticism I'm sure. I really dislike not having control over where the union dues go, and I don't want anyone to negotiate compensation on my behalf. I usually have done well, but if I'm not as valuable as other employees I really try to be fair to the employer as a team player, and don't mind making less. I want to get what I deserve aND I'm proud of my ability to convey that.

Though its getting to be less of a deal with the automobile and cheap fuel, I think it's great that we can always start a union for people who don't have the option of shopping for jobs.
Chaos88
Posts: 4,097
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3/28/2017 12:59:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

There are pros and cons, for all parties, and all individuals. I've been in a few unions, and, while I liked the pay (and the pay wasn't that great, either), I wasn't too fond of everything else. I'm usually one of the harder working people, so, naturally, I don't enjoy making the same amount as others who do less. While this is not a union-specific thing, it is more so with unions, as once you "top out", there is no more incentive. I also don't need the union protection, since I'm not one that gets in trouble and needs someone to fight for me to keep my job. Lastly, I do not particularly enjoy mob rule, so if there was a strike, I don't particularly like the idea that I should not work simply because others are upset.

Overall, I am not found of unions, but I do not regret their existence. I would rather avoid a union, but it isn't a deal breaker. Further, if I was an employer, I would close before being unionized.
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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3/28/2017 2:19:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

If unions had to compete with the general unemployed labor pool, none of them would exist. Government right-to-work laws should lead to the end of unions in the private sector as they now operate. In the public sector, they have no competition. They can act as a monopoly, doing the bare minimum for maximum pay. Every Union job granted usually means the employer can't afford to hire more people, so unemployed people should be rightfully pissed at the union workers for effectively stealing their job that they could have had if he were allowed to work for lower pay instead of being unemployed. Basically, if you can get into the elite club, you are set, and screw the little unemployed guy....
Unions are the worst thing in existence for poor, underskilled, unemployed people.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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3/30/2017 9:28:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2017 2:19:30 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
In the public sector, they have no competition. They can act as a monopoly, doing the bare minimum for maximum pay.

It depends on the job in question. Let's consider the Dean of a college. They have a lot of responsibilities with for-profit goals, such as fostering enrollment initiatives. Many times these public jobs look to the private market to recruit employees, and those employees have the skills to be valued at that pay grade. Another example are all the people who work on IT.

Stats show that government employees make the same or often slightly below market. But mostly it varies by state. NJ, California, etc. are going to pay their public employees well. Virginia? Not so much. Health benefits and pensions are sources of important pay for public employees and it's different across the country.

Public employees also have job security which is valuable. Most people choose between the security of the public sector (which does have significant value - they also have a higher quality of life and more PTO) but the private industries typically afford more opportunities for profit. In public roles, your opportunity for advancement is significantly limited.

Public employees also tend to be more educated than private sector employees, and make lower salary as a whole. When all is said and done, there is no drastic difference so much as too much waste IMO.

I think there are too many public employees. The job security factor is problematic in many instances. I agree with everyone who's said teachers unions are among the worst - not because so many teachers are terrible (most aren't) but because they make it so difficult to get rid of the ones that ARE terrible. I think there are ways to foster job security without excessive, mandatory protections.

Unions are the worst thing in existence for poor, underskilled, unemployed people.

Unless of course they get in one ;) I can get down with some aspects of syndicalism tbh. I think unions can be a tool for good but are often excessive and abusive.
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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3/30/2017 10:06:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/30/2017 9:28:57 PM, Danielle wrote:

Unless of course they get in one ;) I can get down with some aspects of syndicalism tbh. I think unions can be a tool for good but are often excessive and abusive.

Basically, if you can get into the elite club, you are set, and screw the little unemployed guy....
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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3/31/2017 9:20:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/30/2017 10:06:39 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Basically, if you can get into the elite club, you are set, and screw the little unemployed guy....

So you think it's unfair for unions to screw unemployed workers, but not unfair for unions to force companies to keep their business in the U.S.?
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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4/1/2017 5:06:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/31/2017 9:20:20 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 3/30/2017 10:06:39 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
Basically, if you can get into the elite club, you are set, and screw the little unemployed guy....

So you think it's unfair for unions to screw unemployed workers, but not unfair for unions to force companies to keep their business in the U.S.?

How do you figure? Unions are a prime driver for outsourcing. The world's labor pool doesn't compete on the same level as a union mob boss.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Udel2
Posts: 500
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4/1/2017 5:40:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/30/2017 9:28:57 PM, Danielle wrote:
I can get down with some aspects of syndicalism tbh.

lol how so as a Libertarian? I am going to ask you about this in the thread
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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4/1/2017 11:53:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/1/2017 5:40:58 PM, Udel2 wrote:
At 3/30/2017 10:06:39 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

Can you show us the proof unions make way too much money?

Simple. Their opposition to right-to-work laws, because they know they can't compete with an unemployed person.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
ken1122
Posts: 1,737
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4/2/2017 4:40:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

I am a union member as well. They seem to put more emphasis on wage increases than they do other issues because the Union dues I pay each week are based on a percentage of the money I make; thus the more money I make, the more money the Union makes.

I also have a problem with the Union getting involved in politics. I don"t like my Union dues going towards the election campaign of a politician I don"t like, or support of a political issue I disapprove of.
Anonymous
4/2/2017 8:42:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Owners of the means of production have way too much power, and that hurts everyone. Unions are one of the few ways that the working class can even the playing field.
Subutai
Posts: 4,315
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4/2/2017 9:16:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

They're extremely important for protecting workers' rights, especially in a world where neither major political party is that interested in protecting them. It's important to remember that the primary goal of business is to maximize profit, and this goal is often completely antithetical to the goals of workers, which, namely, is to be able to live a comfortable life outside of poverty. Unions represent the only effective method for workers to express their discontent with their working conditions. Without them, workers would have no bargaining tools whatsoever, and would be at the mercy of the management.
We are not dead. We have never lived. - Varg Vikernes, "Det som en gang var"
Anonymous
4/2/2017 9:46:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/30/2017 9:28:57 PM, Danielle wrote:
I can get down with some aspects of syndicalism tbh.

Glad to see there is hope for you.
Anonymous
4/2/2017 9:52:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2017 9:16:40 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

They're extremely important for protecting workers' rights, especially in a world where neither major political party is that interested in protecting them. It's important to remember that the primary goal of business is to maximize profit, and this goal is often completely antithetical to the goals of workers, which, namely, is to be able to live a comfortable life outside of poverty. Unions represent the only effective method for workers to express their discontent with their working conditions. Without them, workers would have no bargaining tools whatsoever, and would be at the mercy of the management.

This.
Unions gave us Child labor laws, the 8-hour work day and a lot more. We badly need strong unions again.
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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4/2/2017 10:48:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2017 9:52:49 PM, Fkkize wrote:
At 4/2/2017 9:16:40 PM, Subutai wrote:
At 3/27/2017 11:04:07 PM, Udel2 wrote:
What do you guys think about unions? I know they have their problems but I'm in a union and it's been really great to me, where my friends who are not unionized have a lot of complaints. It seems like there are pros and cons but the pros seem to outweigh the cons, what do you think?

They're extremely important for protecting workers' rights, especially in a world where neither major political party is that interested in protecting them. It's important to remember that the primary goal of business is to maximize profit, and this goal is often completely antithetical to the goals of workers, which, namely, is to be able to live a comfortable life outside of poverty. Unions represent the only effective method for workers to express their discontent with their working conditions. Without them, workers would have no bargaining tools whatsoever, and would be at the mercy of the management.

This.
Unions gave us Child labor laws,
Yay...kids need even more cushions, because the next marshmallow generation will certainly have a more brutal life compared to the millennial selfies.
the 8-hour work day
Yay, mandated mediocrity.

and a lot more. We badly need strong unions again.

Da Komrade!
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
tejretics
Posts: 6,869
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4/7/2017 1:39:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Unions are responsible for the overwhelming majority of developments in both worker rights and labor efficiency.
Just because you're magic doesn't mean you aren't real.

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