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Why does "YHWH" need Humans to Worship it?

3RU7AL
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4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
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Bias blindspot
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EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
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4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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4/14/2017 12:06:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?

In what way? religion offers knowledge and something practical...what does that have to do with worship or what I said?
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
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4/14/2017 12:11:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 12:06:41 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?

In what way? religion offers knowledge and something practical...what does that have to do with worship or what I said?

Since your reasoning was that God doesn't need worship, then that would make religion optional. Right?
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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4/14/2017 12:14:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 12:11:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:06:41 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?

In what way? religion offers knowledge and something practical...what does that have to do with worship or what I said?

Since your reasoning was that God doesn't need worship, then that would make religion optional. Right?

Correct. When is it not?
Religion isn't for worship anyways, I said it's for knowledge. Worship is an expression from the heart religious or not.
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
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4/14/2017 12:24:44 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 12:14:33 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:11:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:06:41 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?

In what way? religion offers knowledge and something practical...what does that have to do with worship or what I said?

Since your reasoning was that God doesn't need worship, then that would make religion optional. Right?

Correct. When is it not?

That was my point above which you chose to take issue with.

Religion isn't for worship anyways, I said it's for knowledge. Worship is an expression from the heart religious or not.

I beg to differ:

religion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


Religion is the antithesis of a search for knowledge. It's all about blind acceptance of dogma without regard to observed reality.
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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4/14/2017 12:31:27 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 12:24:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:14:33 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:11:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:06:41 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?

In what way? religion offers knowledge and something practical...what does that have to do with worship or what I said?

Since your reasoning was that God doesn't need worship, then that would make religion optional. Right?

Correct. When is it not?

That was my point above which you chose to take issue with.


I took no issue...the only thing I took issue with is your assertion religion is unnecessary.

Religion isn't for worship anyways, I said it's for knowledge. Worship is an expression from the heart religious or not.

I beg to differ:

religion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.



Okay....now read my definition and get my point....that worship is adoration for a deity, religion is not an adoration, it produces adoration in believers...or NOT.

Religion is the antithesis of a search for knowledge. It's all about blind acceptance of dogma without regard to observed reality.

Wrong, materialism is an antithesis of a search for knowledge, for it's all about blind acceptance without any regards to all observed realities...
There, one assertion for another.
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
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4/14/2017 12:49:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 12:31:27 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:24:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:14:33 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:11:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:06:41 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?

In what way? religion offers knowledge and something practical...what does that have to do with worship or what I said?

Since your reasoning was that God doesn't need worship, then that would make religion optional. Right?

Correct. When is it not?

That was my point above which you chose to take issue with.

I took no issue...the only thing I took issue with is your assertion religion is unnecessary.

I'm confused. You agree that worship/religion is optional (an integral part of religion is worship), yet you claim that religion is necessary. Huh?

Religion isn't for worship anyways, I said it's for knowledge. Worship is an expression from the heart religious or not.

I beg to differ:

religion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


Okay....now read my definition and get my point....that worship is adoration for a deity, religion is not an adoration, it produces adoration in believers...or NOT.

I get my definitions from a dictionary not from random people on the internet. There is no such thing as religion without some form of worship.

Religion is the antithesis of a search for knowledge. It's all about blind acceptance of dogma without regard to observed reality.

Wrong, materialism is an antithesis of a search for knowledge, for it's all about blind acceptance without any regards to all observed realities...
There, one assertion for another.

Unfortunately the only assertion (dismissed as mere hyperbole) is yours. Mine is not an assertion but a fact. Or are you now denying that religion is based on dogma? Lol.
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
illegalcombat
Posts: 1,323
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4/14/2017 1:32:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"
3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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4/14/2017 2:14:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

Oh, of course if you personally desire to worship "god", please, by all means go ahead.

I'm just asking why "god" might justifiably demand worship. You know, like in the "ten commandments".
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
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3RU7AL
Posts: 2,250
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4/14/2017 2:16:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 1:32:04 AM, illegalcombat wrote:



Personally, I prefer to worship "The Picard"...
https://en.wikipedia.org...
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
tarantula
Posts: 1,604
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4/14/2017 2:17:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Anyone or anything, that requires people to worship them, has a sick personality.
Quadrunner
Posts: 5,509
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4/14/2017 2:44:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 12:24:44 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:14:33 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:11:49 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:06:41 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/14/2017 12:02:31 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 4/13/2017 11:57:22 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Worship-
"the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity"..

When I was a youngster, I remember thinking....why would anybody not adore or reverence the Creator??

That's my question, however to answer yours...the Creator doesn't need anything, reverence and adoration come from the an expression of feeling, you either have it or ya don't...

God being "perfect and all-powerful" does not eliminate the option of adoration from creation or any pleasure derived from it, God doesn't need it, rather accepts it.

So religion is unnecessary?

In what way? religion offers knowledge and something practical...what does that have to do with worship or what I said?

Since your reasoning was that God doesn't need worship, then that would make religion optional. Right?

Correct. When is it not?

That was my point above which you chose to take issue with.

Religion isn't for worship anyways, I said it's for knowledge. Worship is an expression from the heart religious or not.

I beg to differ:

religion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.


Religion is the antithesis of a search for knowledge. It's all about blind acceptance of dogma without regard to observed reality.

If your religion requires the search for knowledge than you would search for knowledge lol. It's hardly the antithesis to be religious. I worship and reject blind acceptance of dogma. Am I not religious?
3RU7AL
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4/14/2017 2:57:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 2:44:56 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

If your religion requires the search for knowledge than you would search for knowledge lol. It's hardly the antithesis to be religious. I worship and reject blind acceptance of dogma. Am I not religious?

Wait, isn't "blind acceptance of dogma" the very definition of "faith"?

How can you consider yourself "religious" while rejecting "faith"?
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
Quadrunner
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4/14/2017 2:59:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

He doesn't

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

How does being good and powerful detract from a relationship? Do you think like a psychopath? I'm just not following?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Read the book with an open mind, as well as others. Live your life with some principle, and improve upon it. Don't place yourself above others. If you don't care, well, it is what it is.
Quadrunner
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4/14/2017 3:06:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 2:57:52 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 4/14/2017 2:44:56 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

If your religion requires the search for knowledge than you would search for knowledge lol. It's hardly the antithesis to be religious. I worship and reject blind acceptance of dogma. Am I not religious?

Wait, isn't "blind acceptance of dogma" the very definition of "faith"?

No. In the context of dogmatic religion, there are different "faiths", which might be what you are referring to, but faith encompasses much more.

How can you consider yourself "religious" while rejecting "faith"?

I don't reject faith. That would be an obsurd way to live if it's even survivable.
3RU7AL
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4/14/2017 3:10:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 2:17:09 PM, tarantula wrote:

Anyone or anything, that requires people to worship them, has a sick personality.

I would tend to agree with you on this point.

If I was an engineer who only made robots so they could follow me around and tell me how great I am and how undeserving they are and constantly ask me for forgiveness for their flaws, that would see a little weird.

Or if I was a parent, and I made my children spend a couple of hours on the same day every week, dressing up in their best clothes (to honor me), reading some book I wrote, and talking about how awesome I am, and thanking me for giving them life and providing food, clothing and shelter for them, that would also seem a little weird.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
3RU7AL
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4/14/2017 3:13:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:06:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

No. In the context of dogmatic religion, there are different "faiths", which might be what you are referring to, but faith encompasses much more.

I don't reject faith. That would be an obsurd way to live if it's even survivable.

Ok, so how do you decide what is "blind acceptance of dogma" and what is "faith"?

Can you give me an exclusive example of each of these and explain the key differences?
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

+proHUMAN
Jonbonbon
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4/14/2017 3:27:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Several points, and you're going to have to accept the underlying assumptions (like that the trinity is a thing). We're just discussing within the realm of judeo-christianity.

1) God is a God who desires love and community. That's where the doctrine of the Trinity shows us that God has always been in a relationship with Himself.

2) God created man in His image. Whether or not we've tarnished that image, we still possess it.

3) God wants to be loved, especially by people so close to Him that they can be considered His image bearers.

4) Worship fulfills God's most basic desire. The reason He created all of this in the first place.
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Quadrunner
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4/14/2017 3:46:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:13:33 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 4/14/2017 3:06:13 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

No. In the context of dogmatic religion, there are different "faiths", which might be what you are referring to, but faith encompasses much more.

I don't reject faith. That would be an obsurd way to live if it's even survivable.

Ok, so how do you decide what is "blind acceptance of dogma" and what is "faith"?

Well I don't mean to derail this thread, so let's not go to far with this. Faith is blind, so far as I can tell. Blind acceptance of dogma is just one rendition. Simply put, I don't believe faith is a rational process, not that one can't develope faith upon rational examination, but faith is independent of logic whether we believe the logical explication or not. Faith is measurable in relativity by our inclination to act upon belief independent of will.

Can you give me an exclusive example of each of these and explain the key differences?

Dogma - the laws of thermodynamics - natural law - catholocism
Faith - My truck is in the driveway - I have faith in you
bulproof
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4/14/2017 3:48:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:27:18 PM, Jonbonbon wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Several points, and you're going to have to accept the underlying assumptions (like that the trinity is a thing). We're just discussing within the realm of judeo-christianity.

1) God is a God who desires love and community.
Who says and how could an omnipotent omniscient being desire anything?
That's where the doctrine of the Trinity shows us that God has always been in a relationship with Himself.
He's an ononist? Who woulda thunk it?
2) God created man in His image. Whether or not we've tarnished that image, we still possess it.
Man created god in his image, just look at all of his faults.

3) God wants to be loved, especially by people so close to Him that they can be considered His image bearers.
Once again. How could an omnipotent god WANT anything, he already has everything.

4) Worship fulfills God's most basic desire. The reason He created all of this in the first place.
If your god has needs then he is not the god you claim him to be.
3RU7AL
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4/14/2017 3:54:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:27:18 PM, Jonbonbon wrote:

Several points, and you're going to have to accept the underlying assumptions (like that the trinity is a thing). We're just discussing within the realm of judeo-christianity.

No problem.

1) God is a God who desires love and community. That's where the doctrine of the Trinity shows us that God has always been in a relationship with Himself.

I thought "god" was "love". Can't "god" simply "love" itself?

2) God created man in His image. Whether or not we've tarnished that image, we still possess it.

Ok, does that "image" go both ways? Is "god" exactly like a human? Or is there some limit as to how much humans resemble "god"? If there is some limit, how do we know where to draw-the-line so-to-speak?

If I'm like "god", should I act like "god"?

If I was an engineer who only made robots so they could follow me around and tell me how great I am and how undeserving they are and constantly ask me for forgiveness for their flaws, that would see a little weird.

Or if I was a parent, and I made my children spend a couple of hours on the same day every week, dressing up in their best clothes (to honor me), reading some book I wrote, and talking about how awesome I am, and thanking me for giving them life and providing food, clothing and shelter for them, that would also seem a little weird.

3) God wants to be loved, especially by people so close to Him that they can be considered His image bearers.

Do we have any choice about being "image bearers"? I was under the impression that we were "made in god's image", it would seem strange to expect someone to assign any special significance to a set of attributes that are innate to all humans.

4) Worship fulfills God's most basic desire. The reason He created all of this in the first place.

Ok, so "god" is lonely? I thought it had a bunch of angels and stuff to keep it entertained.

If "god" is "perfect" that would seem to imply completeness. A lonely "god" seems more like a Gnostic Demiurge.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
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tarantula
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4/14/2017 3:56:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:10:17 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 4/14/2017 2:17:09 PM, tarantula wrote:

Anyone or anything, that requires people to worship them, has a sick personality.

I would tend to agree with you on this point.

If I was an engineer who only made robots so they could follow me around and tell me how great I am and how undeserving they are and constantly ask me for forgiveness for their flaws, that would see a little weird.

Or if I was a parent, and I made my children spend a couple of hours on the same day every week, dressing up in their best clothes (to honor me), reading some book I wrote, and talking about how awesome I am, and thanking me for giving them life and providing food, clothing and shelter for them, that would also seem a little weird.

Agreed.
Jonbonbon
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4/14/2017 4:07:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:54:38 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 4/14/2017 3:27:18 PM, Jonbonbon wrote:

Several points, and you're going to have to accept the underlying assumptions (like that the trinity is a thing). We're just discussing within the realm of judeo-christianity.

No problem.

1) God is a God who desires love and community. That's where the doctrine of the Trinity shows us that God has always been in a relationship with Himself.

I thought "god" was "love". Can't "god" simply "love" itself?

Well, he can, and he does. But anyway, the whole idea about being created in God's image is that our spirit or minds work similarly to his (especially in a perfect state). Thinking of eternity as a nonlinear concept, God has always and will always and does always love Himself, but at the same time, he maybe felt the need for someone else to partake.
2) God created man in His image. Whether or not we've tarnished that image, we still possess it.

Ok, does that "image" go both ways? Is "god" exactly like a human? Or is there some limit as to how much humans resemble "god"? If there is some limit, how do we know where to draw-the-line so-to-speak?

Like above, it's more about how we behave. There are some differences, because we can't fully embody what God is. That gets into some really deep philosophy and analyzing what exactly is a divine quality and what isn't. I haven't studied that a ton, because I'm a relatively new Christian, so I'm doing a lot of research on myself already :P

If I'm like "god", should I act like "god"?

No, something that's similar in image isn't necessarily "like" that thing that its image is in.

If I was an engineer who only made robots so they could follow me around and tell me how great I am and how undeserving they are and constantly ask me for forgiveness for their flaws, that would see a little weird.

The point of sin is that we're not robots. That's why the problem of evil argument falls. We have a choice whether or not to worship God, and God doesn't force us or the world to be good. That's why God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We've always had a choice.

Or if I was a parent, and I made my children spend a couple of hours on the same day every week, dressing up in their best clothes (to honor me), reading some book I wrote, and talking about how awesome I am, and thanking me for giving them life and providing food, clothing and shelter for them, that would also seem a little weird.

That's a little different. If you were perfect and the creator of everything good in your child's life, yes, you would totally be justified to do that.

3) God wants to be loved, especially by people so close to Him that they can be considered His image bearers.

Do we have any choice about being "image bearers"? I was under the impression that we were "made in god's image", it would seem strange to expect someone to assign any special significance to a set of attributes that are innate to all humans.

It's a concept that makes humanity different from other animals. There's no choice in it. It's a nature that resonates with the rest of what the Bible says about the relationship between man and God.

4) Worship fulfills God's most basic desire. The reason He created all of this in the first place.

Ok, so "god" is lonely? I thought it had a bunch of angels and stuff to keep it entertained.

Angels were created with the rest of creation, and they weren't created in God's image. That means God has a special relationship with humans that He doesn't have with angels.

If "god" is "perfect" that would seem to imply completeness. A lonely "god" seems more like a Gnostic Demiurge.

That's actually a good question. I'm not sure my answer to this will be correct, but my understanding of the Bible so far jives perfectly well with itself. Anyway, maybe completeness means having someone else, which is why God has Himself, but it's like I said above. He may have just needed someone else to partake in that with him. Humans are naturally social creatures, and I believe that's part of the image. If that's part of the image, then why wouldn't God want more community with Him that bears His image?
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Jonbonbon
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4/14/2017 4:13:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:48:53 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 4/14/2017 3:27:18 PM, Jonbonbon wrote:
At 4/13/2017 9:14:19 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
When I was about 15 years old or so, I remember asking my parents, "why does god need us to worship him?"

I think their response was something along the lines of "Well, god made us, so we should show our gratitude".

I remember thinking this didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

If "god" is "perfect" and "all powerful", why would it care if humans gave it any credit or attention whatsoever?

I'm just wondering if anyone thinks they've got a better answer.

Several points, and you're going to have to accept the underlying assumptions (like that the trinity is a thing). We're just discussing within the realm of judeo-christianity.

1) God is a God who desires love and community.
Who says and how could an omnipotent omniscient being desire anything?
That's where the doctrine of the Trinity shows us that God has always been in a relationship with Himself.
He's an ononist? Who woulda thunk it?
2) God created man in His image. Whether or not we've tarnished that image, we still possess it.
Man created god in his image, just look at all of his faults.

3) God wants to be loved, especially by people so close to Him that they can be considered His image bearers.
Once again. How could an omnipotent god WANT anything, he already has everything.

4) Worship fulfills God's most basic desire. The reason He created all of this in the first place.
If your god has needs then he is not the god you claim him to be.

Your baseline reasoning comes from a fundamental misunderstanding.

Omnipotence does not imply the state of having everything, it implies the ability TO have everything. We're part of that everything.

Specifically lol at this "If your god has needs then he is not the god you claim him to be" because not only does it follow unfortunate misunderstandings, but the God I'm claiming him to be in that last post is the exact God I was claiming Him to be. You're taking other Christians that you know and putting that on me. You don't actually know what I believe, thus you're not responding to me.

Aside from that, not really worth responding to. This is why I hardly come to the religion section. I only come to answer occasional questions from people who don't necessarily have fixed perceptions.
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Check out the latest episode of Nautilus:
http://www.debate.org...

It's a great series... some say

If you want to see the trailer for my movie, go here:
http://www.debate.org...

"This is all just propaganda," Airmax

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Quadrunner
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4/14/2017 4:31:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:54:38 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 4/14/2017 3:27:18 PM, Jonbonbon wrote:

Several points, and you're going to have to accept the underlying assumptions (like that the trinity is a thing). We're just discussing within the realm of judeo-christianity.

No problem.

1) God is a God who desires love and community. That's where the doctrine of the Trinity shows us that God has always been in a relationship with Himself.

I thought "god" was "love". Can't "god" simply "love" itself?

2) God created man in His image. Whether or not we've tarnished that image, we still possess it.

Ok, does that "image" go both ways? Is "god" exactly like a human? Or is there some limit as to how much humans resemble "god"? If there is some limit, how do we know where to draw-the-line so-to-speak?

If I'm like "god", should I act like "god"?

If I was an engineer who only made robots so they could follow me around and tell me how great I am and how undeserving they are and constantly ask me for forgiveness for their flaws, that would see a little weird.

I'd say if you are an engineer, your entire living is base on the creation acting to a purpose you intended. The way it works is according to your design, and naturally, you have some sense of fulfilment, joy, drive or what have you, something good that makes you want to do it. How the machine acts is just how it acts. It's hard for me to describe the feeling of making everything come to gather as best I can. Making machines that emulate worship does seem weird.

Or if I was a parent, and I made my children spend a couple of hours on the same day every week, dressing up in their best clothes (to honor me), reading some book I wrote, and talking about how awesome I am, and thanking me for giving them life and providing food, clothing and shelter for them, that would also seem a little weird.

Making your kids simulate worship would be weird.

3) God wants to be loved, especially by people so close to Him that they can be considered His image bearers.

Do we have any choice about being "image bearers"? I was under the impression that we were "made in god's image", it would seem strange to expect someone to assign any special significance to a set of attributes that are innate to all humans.

4) Worship fulfills God's most basic desire. The reason He created all of this in the first place.

Ok, so "god" is lonely?

If "god" is "perfect" that would seem to imply completeness. A lonely "god" seems more like a Gnostic Demiurge.
3RU7AL
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4/14/2017 4:36:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 3:46:48 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

Ok, so how do you decide what is "blind acceptance of dogma" and what is "faith"?

Well I don't mean to derail this thread, so let's not go to far with this.

Don't worry about it. This is an important aspect of the fundamental question under examination and decidedly "on-topic".

Faith is blind, so far as I can tell. Blind acceptance of dogma is just one rendition. Simply put, I don't believe faith is a rational process, not that one can't develope faith upon rational examination, but faith is independent of logic whether we believe the logical explication or not. Faith is measurable in relativity by our inclination to act upon belief independent of will.

Ok, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"?

So no "deathbed conversions" for you?

However, I'm not at all sure how anyone might act independently of their own will. Maybe I'm misunderstanding that last part.

Can you give me an exclusive example of each of these and explain the key differences?

Dogma - the laws of thermodynamics - natural law - catholocism

The "laws of thermodynamics" are observable and therefore not based on "dogma".

The idea of "natural law" is also observable and perhaps based on some inductive reasoning, but that certainly does not count as "dogma".

"Dogma" is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" written in stone.

The doctrine of papal infallibility is a pretty good example of this.

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Faith - My truck is in the driveway - I have faith in you

You have some evidence that your "truck is in the driveway" I presume, therefore you do not need "faith". You may not have 100% confidence that your "truck is in the driveway" but I'm pretty sure nobody is holding your statement to the unrealistic standard of 100% confidence.

You may be giving me some "benefit of the doubt" that I am a reasonable person who is worth having a conversation with, but again, I doubt you have 100% confidence that is actually true, and nobody could reasonably expect such a thing.

"Faith" is the magic fairy dust that fills the gap between "reasonably confident" and "100% confident". The more reasonable doubt you have on any particular topic, the more "faith" you will need to fill that gap.
Believing in "objective reality" is just like believing in heaven.
Please adhere to obvious epistemological limits.
ethang5, PureX, and I agree on... http://www.debate.org...
How to have a Rational Conversation http://www.debate.org...
Cognitive bias
Bias blindspot
What is Alief?

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Quadrunner
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4/14/2017 5:01:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 4:36:05 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 4/14/2017 3:46:48 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

Ok, so how do you decide what is "blind acceptance of dogma" and what is "faith"?

Well I don't mean to derail this thread, so let's not go to far with this.

Don't worry about it. This is an important aspect of the fundamental question under examination and decidedly "on-topic".

Faith is blind, so far as I can tell. Blind acceptance of dogma is just one rendition. Simply put, I don't believe faith is a rational process, not that one can't develope faith upon rational examination, but faith is independent of logic whether we believe the logical explication or not. Faith is measurable in relativity by our inclination to act upon belief independent of will.

Ok, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"?

So no "deathbed conversions" for you?

However, I'm not at all sure how anyone might act independently of their own will. Maybe I'm misunderstanding that last part.

Yes, and I apologize if it was unclear. Your faith is separate from your will, but you feel both obviously, and it's necessary in measuring faith to isolate it from other emotions. I have faith my truck is in my driveway. If i had faith my truck was on the street, but wanted it to be in the driveway, I would act on my faith to determine that I first need to go to the street, and move it. My will that the truck should be in the driveway is a separate feeling. This aspect is important in harder situations.

Can you give me an exclusive example of each of these and explain the key differences?

Dogma - the laws of thermodynamics - natural law - catholocism

The "laws of thermodynamics" are observable and therefore not based on "dogma".

The idea of "natural law" is also observable and perhaps based on some inductive reasoning, but that certainly does not count as "dogma".

"Dogma" is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" written in stone.

Dogma can be true, false, logical, or illogical. The important part is that it's decreed to be true by authority. You are displaying prejudice, or a lense built over your semi-ignorant reinforced experience with these words over the course of your life. You have faith in your own meanings, however irrational. It's common for us to derive different meanings by the connotations we experience in different lives.

The doctrine of papal infallibility is a pretty good example of this.

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Faith - My truck is in the driveway - I have faith in you

You have some evidence that your "truck is in the driveway" I presume, therefore you do not need "faith". You may not have 100% confidence that your "truck is in the driveway" but I'm pretty sure nobody is holding your statement to the unrealistic standard of 100% confidence.

You may be giving me some "benefit of the doubt" that I am a reasonable person who is worth having a conversation with, but again, I doubt you have 100% confidence that is actually true, and nobody could reasonably expect such a thing.

"Faith" is the magic fairy dust that fills the gap between "reasonably confident" and "100% confident". The more reasonable doubt you have on any particular topic, the more "faith" you will need to fill that gap.

Faith is the "reasonably" confident. Things like hope, will, love, fear, etc... fill in the gap to act.
Quadrunner
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4/14/2017 5:15:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 5:01:27 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 4/14/2017 4:36:05 PM, 3RU7AL wrote:
At 4/14/2017 3:46:48 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

Ok, so how do you decide what is "blind acceptance of dogma" and what is "faith"?

Well I don't mean to derail this thread, so let's not go to far with this.

Don't worry about it. This is an important aspect of the fundamental question under examination and decidedly "on-topic".

Faith is blind, so far as I can tell. Blind acceptance of dogma is just one rendition. Simply put, I don't believe faith is a rational process, not that one can't develope faith upon rational examination, but faith is independent of logic whether we believe the logical explication or not. Faith is measurable in relativity by our inclination to act upon belief independent of will.

Ok, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also"?

So no "deathbed conversions" for you?

However, I'm not at all sure how anyone might act independently of their own will. Maybe I'm misunderstanding that last part.

Yes, and I apologize if it was unclear. Your faith is separate from your will, but you feel both obviously, and it's necessary in measuring faith to isolate it from other emotions. I have faith my truck is in my driveway. If i had faith my truck was on the street, but wanted it to be in the driveway, I would act on my faith to determine that I first need to go to the street, and move it. My will that the truck should be in the driveway is a separate feeling. This aspect is important in harder situations.

Can you give me an exclusive example of each of these and explain the key differences?

Dogma - the laws of thermodynamics - natural law - catholocism

The "laws of thermodynamics" are observable and therefore not based on "dogma".

The idea of "natural law" is also observable and perhaps based on some inductive reasoning, but that certainly does not count as "dogma".

"Dogma" is the logical fallacy of "appeal to authority" written in stone.

Dogma can be true, false, logical, or illogical. The important part is that it's decreed to be true by authority. You are displaying prejudice, or a lense built over your semi-ignorant reinforced experience with these words over the course of your life. You have faith in your own meanings, however irrational. It's common for us to derive different meanings by the connotations we experience in different lives.

The doctrine of papal infallibility is a pretty good example of this.

Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Faith - My truck is in the driveway - I have faith in you

You have some evidence that your "truck is in the driveway" I presume, therefore you do not need "faith". You may not have 100% confidence that your "truck is in the driveway" but I'm pretty sure nobody is holding your statement to the unrealistic standard of 100% confidence.

You may be giving me some "benefit of the doubt" that I am a reasonable person who is worth having a conversation with, but again, I doubt you have 100% confidence that is actually true, and nobody could reasonably expect such a thing.

"Faith" is the magic fairy dust that fills the gap between "reasonably confident" and "100% confident". The more reasonable doubt you have on any particular topic, the more "faith" you will need to fill that gap.

Faith is the "reasonably" confident. Things like hope, will, love, fear, etc... fill in the gap to act.

Or I should say, they overcome the doubt, which is the gap. Knowing, is the highest degree of faith, complete faith.

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