Total Posts:113|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

All-good All-loving god

janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:42:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.

Then I don't get why you would trust Jesus. I don't get believing in a 2000 year old book for no real reason. At least you aren't giving one. What is so special(and truthful) about the Bible?
PetersSmith
Posts: 6,898
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:45:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

Not me.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:47:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:45:22 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

Not me.

If God is not all-loving and good, then is god malevolent? Or does God have both good and bad aspects?

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.
PetersSmith
Posts: 6,898
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:49:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:47:49 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:45:22 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

Not me.

If God is not all-loving and good, then is god malevolent? Or does God have both good and bad aspects?

Neither god nor the goddess is inherently "bad" or "good". They just "are". They can both "do" what we'd determine as "bad" or "evil", and they can also both do what we'd term "good" or "benevolent".
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:49:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:42:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.

Then I don't get why you would trust Jesus.

I just told you why. It's because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah.

I don't get believing in a 2000 year old book for no real reason

I gave you a reason. I trust it on Jesus' authority.

At least you aren't giving one.

Sorry, I thought I did. For any reason I give you to believe something, you can always ask "Why?" I believe A because of B. Well, why do I believe B? I believe B because of C. Well, why do I believe C? I believe C because of D. Etc. I admit that I can't complete an infinite series of "why?" questions. If that's the reason you don't think I've justified my belief in the Bible, then why?

What is so special(and truthful) about the Bible?

It's special because it contains God's revelation to man.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:50:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:49:30 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:47:49 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:45:22 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

Not me.

If God is not all-loving and good, then is god malevolent? Or does God have both good and bad aspects?

Neither god nor the goddess is inherently "bad" or "good". They just "are". They can both "do" what we'd determine as "bad" or "evil", and they can also both do what we'd term "good" or "benevolent".

What is your religion?
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 9:55:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:49:38 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:42:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.

Then I don't get why you would trust Jesus.

I just told you why. It's because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah.

I don't get believing in a 2000 year old book for no real reason

I gave you a reason. I trust it on Jesus' authority.

At least you aren't giving one.

Sorry, I thought I did. For any reason I give you to believe something, you can always ask "Why?" I believe A because of B. Well, why do I believe B? I believe B because of C. Well, why do I believe C? I believe C because of D. Etc. I admit that I can't complete an infinite series of "why?" questions. If that's the reason you don't think I've justified my belief in the Bible, then why?

What is so special(and truthful) about the Bible?

It's special because it contains God's revelation to man.

I am trying to get at the root of your belief. I can easily answer why I believe what I do. Why can't you? Your answer is basically "because the Bible says so" That isn't a good reason to me. Have you ever really gone deep into yourself to figure out why you believe what you do?
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 10:02:34 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 9:55:34 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:49:38 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:42:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.

Then I don't get why you would trust Jesus.

I just told you why. It's because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah.

I don't get believing in a 2000 year old book for no real reason

I gave you a reason. I trust it on Jesus' authority.

At least you aren't giving one.

Sorry, I thought I did. For any reason I give you to believe something, you can always ask "Why?" I believe A because of B. Well, why do I believe B? I believe B because of C. Well, why do I believe C? I believe C because of D. Etc. I admit that I can't complete an infinite series of "why?" questions. If that's the reason you don't think I've justified my belief in the Bible, then why?

What is so special(and truthful) about the Bible?

It's special because it contains God's revelation to man.

I am trying to get at the root of your belief. I can easily answer why I believe what I do. Why can't you? Your answer is basically "because the Bible says so" That isn't a good reason to me. Have you ever really gone deep into yourself to figure out why you believe what you do?

"Because the Bible says so" was only one reason I gave you for why I think God is good. I also gave you a philosophical reason. But when you pressed me on why I trusted the Bible, I gave you a reason for that, too. Then you questioned why I trusted Jesus, and I answered that, too. If you had asked me why I think Jesus was a prophet or the messiah, I would've given you a reason for that. And you could've then asked me why I believed the premises that lead me to that conclusion. This conversation could go on and on like that. For every argument I give you, you can ask me why I believe the premises in that argument. At what point to you finally agree that I've gone deep enough? At what point do you finally say I've justified my belief? Or do you never say that and continue to ask "Why?" indefinitely?

You can do that with anything you believe. You say that you can give me a reason for why you believe what you do, but then I can do the exact same thing. For every premise you use in the case for what you believe, I can ask you why you believe those premises. Then you'll have to give me reasons for those premises, and I can ask you "Why?" again. Then I can say, "You're not giving me a real reason" or "You haven't gone deep enough."

How long does the series of "Why?" questions have to go on before we can say that we've gone deep enough? And why do you think that?
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 10:08:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 10:02:34 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:55:34 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:49:38 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:42:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.

Then I don't get why you would trust Jesus.

I just told you why. It's because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah.

I don't get believing in a 2000 year old book for no real reason

I gave you a reason. I trust it on Jesus' authority.

At least you aren't giving one.

Sorry, I thought I did. For any reason I give you to believe something, you can always ask "Why?" I believe A because of B. Well, why do I believe B? I believe B because of C. Well, why do I believe C? I believe C because of D. Etc. I admit that I can't complete an infinite series of "why?" questions. If that's the reason you don't think I've justified my belief in the Bible, then why?

What is so special(and truthful) about the Bible?

It's special because it contains God's revelation to man.

I am trying to get at the root of your belief. I can easily answer why I believe what I do. Why can't you? Your answer is basically "because the Bible says so" That isn't a good reason to me. Have you ever really gone deep into yourself to figure out why you believe what you do?

"Because the Bible says so" was only one reason I gave you for why I think God is good. I also gave you a philosophical reason. But when you pressed me on why I trusted the Bible, I gave you a reason for that, too. Then you questioned why I trusted Jesus, and I answered that, too. If you had asked me why I think Jesus was a prophet or the messiah, I would've given you a reason for that. And you could've then asked me why I believed the premises that lead me to that conclusion. This conversation could go on and on like that. For every argument I give you, you can ask me why I believe the premises in that argument. At what point to you finally agree that I've gone deep enough? At what point do you finally say I've justified my belief? Or do you never say that and continue to ask "Why?" indefinitely?

You can do that with anything you believe. You say that you can give me a reason for why you believe what you do, but then I can do the exact same thing. For every premise you use in the case for what you believe, I can ask you why you believe those premises. Then you'll have to give me reasons for those premises, and I can ask you "Why?" again. Then I can say, "You're not giving me a real reason" or "You haven't gone deep enough."

How long does the series of "Why?" questions have to go on before we can say that we've gone deep enough? And why do you think that?

I've expressed my desire to understand the root of your belief. You know what I'm trying to get at. I have to keep asking "why?" because you are not being upfront about why you believe in the Bible. We are going in circles.
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 10:19:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 10:08:04 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 10:02:34 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:55:34 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:49:38 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:42:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.

Then I don't get why you would trust Jesus.

I just told you why. It's because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah.

I don't get believing in a 2000 year old book for no real reason

I gave you a reason. I trust it on Jesus' authority.

At least you aren't giving one.

Sorry, I thought I did. For any reason I give you to believe something, you can always ask "Why?" I believe A because of B. Well, why do I believe B? I believe B because of C. Well, why do I believe C? I believe C because of D. Etc. I admit that I can't complete an infinite series of "why?" questions. If that's the reason you don't think I've justified my belief in the Bible, then why?

What is so special(and truthful) about the Bible?

It's special because it contains God's revelation to man.

I am trying to get at the root of your belief. I can easily answer why I believe what I do. Why can't you? Your answer is basically "because the Bible says so" That isn't a good reason to me. Have you ever really gone deep into yourself to figure out why you believe what you do?

"Because the Bible says so" was only one reason I gave you for why I think God is good. I also gave you a philosophical reason. But when you pressed me on why I trusted the Bible, I gave you a reason for that, too. Then you questioned why I trusted Jesus, and I answered that, too. If you had asked me why I think Jesus was a prophet or the messiah, I would've given you a reason for that. And you could've then asked me why I believed the premises that lead me to that conclusion. This conversation could go on and on like that. For every argument I give you, you can ask me why I believe the premises in that argument. At what point to you finally agree that I've gone deep enough? At what point do you finally say I've justified my belief? Or do you never say that and continue to ask "Why?" indefinitely?

You can do that with anything you believe. You say that you can give me a reason for why you believe what you do, but then I can do the exact same thing. For every premise you use in the case for what you believe, I can ask you why you believe those premises. Then you'll have to give me reasons for those premises, and I can ask you "Why?" again. Then I can say, "You're not giving me a real reason" or "You haven't gone deep enough."

How long does the series of "Why?" questions have to go on before we can say that we've gone deep enough? And why do you think that?

I've expressed my desire to understand the root of your belief. You know what I'm trying to get at. I have to keep asking "why?" because you are not being upfront about why you believe in the Bible. We are going in circles.

Be up front with me and answer my question. If there is a long series of why questions I must answer before you're satisfied, I'd like to know how long that list is. I suspect you're asking me something that would require a book to answer.

I am a foundationalist when it comes to epistemology. I don't actually think "Why?" questions lead to infinite regresses. I think there are a handful of items of knowledge we can know a priori and that it is from that foundation that all of our knowledge is built. But surely it is absurd to think I should start from that foundation to explain why I think God is good. I would have to explain what is contained in that foundation, including the laws of logic, the reliability of our sensory perception, the uniformity of nature, etc. Then I would have to explain from that foundation why I believe everything else. You are asking too much.

The reason we don't expect people to begin with the root of what they believe is because there are at least a few things all of us agree on. For example, if I want to tell you why I believe there's a car in my driveway, I don't need to go into whether the external world exists or not. You probably already agree with me about that. So all I have to do is show you a picture. I don't have to explain why you should trust that the picture isn't photoshopped, that it isn't somebody else's driveway, etc., because you likely wouldn't question those things.

But I have no idea what your presuppositions are or where I should begin. I have no idea what you will already agree with. Maybe there's nothing you would already agree with, so there's no satisfactory answer I could possibly give you. But that wouldn't mean I hadn't given you a reason for why I believe what I do. You don't need to agree with me for my beliefs to be justified.

If I were arguing with somebody who trusted Jesus, but did not believe the Bible was reliable, I'd try to show that person that Jesus trusted the Bible. If I could succeed, then the person who agree I had shown the Bible to be reliable. But if the person doesn't already trust Jesus, then I've got to start somewhere else. Maybe I run into somebody who trusts the Bible but doesn't believe God is all good. I could then use the Bible to show them that God is good. So the presupposition the person has will determine my starting point. You haven't said anything about your presuppositions, and I'm not a mind-reader. So I have contented myself to give simple reasons for your 'why' questions. If you want to keep asking "Why?" until you're satisifed, then go ahead. I'll keep giving you answers until I'm tired of answering them.

But I'm not going to write you a book, just soes you know.

Now, do you want to know why I think Jesus is a prophet or the messiah?
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/14/2017 11:50:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 10:19:56 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 10:08:04 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 10:02:34 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:55:34 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:49:38 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:42:15 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:38:45 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:37:09 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:34:31 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:32:14 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:27:30 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:22:46 PM, janesix wrote:
At 4/14/2017 9:12:24 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

I don't agree that God is all-loving in the sense of loving all creatures in the same way. Do do believe God is all good for a couple of reasons. One reason is because the Bible says so. Another reason is philosophical. If don't see how God can be anything BUT good if he is the standard for morality. The good is what ought to be done and evil is what ought to be avoided. That's true by definition. If this distinction is grounded in God, then God can only be good.

Why do you believe what the bible says?

Because it appears that's what Jesus thought, at least about the old testament, and I trust Jesus.

Why?

Why do I trust Jesus, or why do I think Jesus trusted the old testament?

Why do you trust Jesus?

And, have you ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Sprit?

I trust Jesus because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah. I don't think I have ever experienced the presence of Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit. Or if I have, I didn't know it.

Then I don't get why you would trust Jesus.

I just told you why. It's because I think he really is a prophet and the messiah.

I don't get believing in a 2000 year old book for no real reason

I gave you a reason. I trust it on Jesus' authority.

At least you aren't giving one.

Sorry, I thought I did. For any reason I give you to believe something, you can always ask "Why?" I believe A because of B. Well, why do I believe B? I believe B because of C. Well, why do I believe C? I believe C because of D. Etc. I admit that I can't complete an infinite series of "why?" questions. If that's the reason you don't think I've justified my belief in the Bible, then why?

What is so special(and truthful) about the Bible?

It's special because it contains God's revelation to man.

I am trying to get at the root of your belief. I can easily answer why I believe what I do. Why can't you? Your answer is basically "because the Bible says so" That isn't a good reason to me. Have you ever really gone deep into yourself to figure out why you believe what you do?

"Because the Bible says so" was only one reason I gave you for why I think God is good. I also gave you a philosophical reason. But when you pressed me on why I trusted the Bible, I gave you a reason for that, too. Then you questioned why I trusted Jesus, and I answered that, too. If you had asked me why I think Jesus was a prophet or the messiah, I would've given you a reason for that. And you could've then asked me why I believed the premises that lead me to that conclusion. This conversation could go on and on like that. For every argument I give you, you can ask me why I believe the premises in that argument. At what point to you finally agree that I've gone deep enough? At what point do you finally say I've justified my belief? Or do you never say that and continue to ask "Why?" indefinitely?

You can do that with anything you believe. You say that you can give me a reason for why you believe what you do, but then I can do the exact same thing. For every premise you use in the case for what you believe, I can ask you why you believe those premises. Then you'll have to give me reasons for those premises, and I can ask you "Why?" again. Then I can say, "You're not giving me a real reason" or "You haven't gone deep enough."

How long does the series of "Why?" questions have to go on before we can say that we've gone deep enough? And why do you think that?

I've expressed my desire to understand the root of your belief. You know what I'm trying to get at. I have to keep asking "why?" because you are not being upfront about why you believe in the Bible. We are going in circles.

Be up front with me and answer my question. If there is a long series of why questions I must answer before you're satisfied, I'd like to know how long that list is. I suspect you're asking me something that would require a book to answer.

Not too long, I think we're getting there.

<clipped for space>

I apologize for being pushy and somewhat rude.

"Now, do you want to know why I think Jesus is a prophet or the messiah?"

Yes
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 12:45:56 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 11:50:10 PM, janesix wrote:

"Now, do you want to know why I think Jesus is a prophet or the messiah?"

Yes

It's because of two things. First, that he claimed to be both, and second, that he rose from the dead. It's these two things together that make me think his claim was true.

I have a lot of reasons for thinking Jesus made these claims about himself, and it really would take a lot of writing to flesh them all out. I'm just going to be brief, but if you want a detailed case for it, I would recommend chapter 11 in Jesus and the Victory of God by N.T. Wright. But here are some of the reasons.

1. Jesus was crucified by a Roman prefect, and his claim to be the king of the Jews makes the best sense of this fact.
2. Of the various charges made against Jesus in his trials, all four gospels agree that the one that stuck was his claim to be "The king of the Jews." That's the charge that was placed above his head on the cross.
2. Jesus was called "Christ" in the earliest layers of Christian tradition.
3. The movement was called "Christian" from before the earliest writings of the NT.
4. Jesus named twelve people to lead his movement, symbolizing the reunion of Judah and Israel, which according to Ezekiel 37 was associated with the coming of the messiah.
5. It is unlikely that anybody would start calling Jesus the messiah after his crucifixion because his crucifixion would've proved just the opposite.
6. There are various things Jesus is recorded to have said and done that indicate he thought he was the messiah, e.g. riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.
7. Most of Jesus' parables are about the kingdom of God.
8. Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, which is an allusion to a passage in Daniel that many people in the first century understood in a messianic sense.

Of course you could push me on why I believe these eight things, but I think I'm going to stop with this.

Now, I'm going to tell you the primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead. If you want something more detailed, two books I have found to argue the case well are The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright and The Resurrection of Jesus by Mike Licona. Wright's argument has had a bigger influence on me than Licona's argument.

The primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead is because I don't Christianity could have survived, especially as a messianic movement, unless he was raised from the dead. Why not, you say? Because dying on a cross is the exact opposite of what any first century Jew would expect of the messiah. The expectation of a messiah was an expectation that God would fulfill his promise to always have a man on the throne of David. So the messiah was a king. His coming was supposed to be accompanied by a restoration of national sovereignty (which meant defeating the Romans and ending their rule and oppression). Instead of defeated the Romans, Jesus appeared to have been defeated by the Romans. So the Jews had every reason to think Jesus was not the messiah once he was crucified.

In every other case in the first and second century of somebody claiming to be the messiah or something like the messiah, their movement ended when they died. That included Simon bar Giora who fought the Romans from within the Temple in the first Jewish war, and it included Simon bar Kosiba who fought the Romans in the second Jewish war against Rome. But there were many others. Jesus' movement was the only one to survive the death of its leader.

The reason the first Christians gave for why they continued to believe in Jesus after his death is because he appeared to them alive. These appearances can be explained in one of two ways. Either they say a vision/hallucination/mirage/illusion/whatever, or they saw Jesus himself. If they saw Jesus himself, then Jesus was raised from the dead. The reason I don't believe in any type of hallucination theory is because I don't think a hallucination would be adequate to convince anybody that Jesus had risen from the dead. Lots of people experience grief hallucinations when a loved one dies, but it never leads them to believe their loved one has risen from the dead. I remember in the lat 80's, lots of people claimed to see Elvis alive, but that never lead anybody to believe he had risen from the dead. Lots of people claimed to have seen Jesus' mother, Mary. There have even been mass sightings. But it never leads people to believe Mary rose from the dead.

Imagine somebody you know to be dead appearing before you right now. Imagine what you would really think if that happened. You'd have several options. Maybe you're dreaming. Maybe you're hallucinating. Maybe you're seeing a ghost. Maybe the person never died to begin with. But the last thing you'd think is that they had risen from the dead. It would take much more than merely seeing the person to get you to believe that. The New Testament reports exactly what we would expect if the disciples were to really be convinced that he had risen from the dead. They report on one occasion that they initially thought they were seeing a ghost. Then they report in multiple places that they actually touched him and that he ate in front of them. They put a lot of emphasis on proofs of his physicality. That makes sense to me because that's the only thing that could've proved to them that he rose from the dead, that it was actually him, and that he wasn't just a ghost, and they weren't just imagining it. So I think Jesus really did rise from the dead.

That's about all I'm going to explain.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 12:55:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/15/2017 12:45:56 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 11:50:10 PM, janesix wrote:

"Now, do you want to know why I think Jesus is a prophet or the messiah?"

Yes

It's because of two things. First, that he claimed to be both, and second, that he rose from the dead. It's these two things together that make me think his claim was true.

I have a lot of reasons for thinking Jesus made these claims about himself, and it really would take a lot of writing to flesh them all out. I'm just going to be brief, but if you want a detailed case for it, I would recommend chapter 11 in Jesus and the Victory of God by N.T. Wright. But here are some of the reasons.

1. Jesus was crucified by a Roman prefect, and his claim to be the king of the Jews makes the best sense of this fact.
2. Of the various charges made against Jesus in his trials, all four gospels agree that the one that stuck was his claim to be "The king of the Jews." That's the charge that was placed above his head on the cross.
2. Jesus was called "Christ" in the earliest layers of Christian tradition.
3. The movement was called "Christian" from before the earliest writings of the NT.
4. Jesus named twelve people to lead his movement, symbolizing the reunion of Judah and Israel, which according to Ezekiel 37 was associated with the coming of the messiah.
5. It is unlikely that anybody would start calling Jesus the messiah after his crucifixion because his crucifixion would've proved just the opposite.
6. There are various things Jesus is recorded to have said and done that indicate he thought he was the messiah, e.g. riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.
7. Most of Jesus' parables are about the kingdom of God.
8. Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, which is an allusion to a passage in Daniel that many people in the first century understood in a messianic sense.

Of course you could push me on why I believe these eight things, but I think I'm going to stop with this.

Now, I'm going to tell you the primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead. If you want something more detailed, two books I have found to argue the case well are The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright and The Resurrection of Jesus by Mike Licona. Wright's argument has had a bigger influence on me than Licona's argument.

The primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead is because I don't Christianity could have survived, especially as a messianic movement, unless he was raised from the dead. Why not, you say? Because dying on a cross is the exact opposite of what any first century Jew would expect of the messiah. The expectation of a messiah was an expectation that God would fulfill his promise to always have a man on the throne of David. So the messiah was a king. His coming was supposed to be accompanied by a restoration of national sovereignty (which meant defeating the Romans and ending their rule and oppression). Instead of defeated the Romans, Jesus appeared to have been defeated by the Romans. So the Jews had every reason to think Jesus was not the messiah once he was crucified.

In every other case in the first and second century of somebody claiming to be the messiah or something like the messiah, their movement ended when they died. That included Simon bar Giora who fought the Romans from within the Temple in the first Jewish war, and it included Simon bar Kosiba who fought the Romans in the second Jewish war against Rome. But there were many others. Jesus' movement was the only one to survive the death of its leader.

The reason the first Christians gave for why they continued to believe in Jesus after his death is because he appeared to them alive. These appearances can be explained in one of two ways. Either they say a vision/hallucination/mirage/illusion/whatever, or they saw Jesus himself. If they saw Jesus himself, then Jesus was raised from the dead. The reason I don't believe in any type of hallucination theory is because I don't think a hallucination would be adequate to convince anybody that Jesus had risen from the dead. Lots of people experience grief hallucinations when a loved one dies, but it never leads them to believe their loved one has risen from the dead. I remember in the lat 80's, lots of people claimed to see Elvis alive, but that never lead anybody to believe he had risen from the dead. Lots of people claimed to have seen Jesus' mother, Mary. There have even been mass sightings. But it never leads people to believe Mary rose from the dead.

Imagine somebody you know to be dead appearing before you right now. Imagine what you would really think if that happened. You'd have several options. Maybe you're dreaming. Maybe you're hallucinating. Maybe you're seeing a ghost. Maybe the person never died to begin with. But the last thing you'd think is that they had risen from the dead. It would take much more than merely seeing the person to get you to believe that. The New Testament reports exactly what we would expect if the disciples were to really be convinced that he had risen from the dead. They report on one occasion that they initially thought they were seeing a ghost. Then they report in multiple places that they actually touched him and that he ate in front of them. They put a lot of emphasis on proofs of his physicality. That makes sense to me because that's the only thing that could've proved to them that he rose from the dead, that it was actually him, and that he wasn't just a ghost, and they weren't just imagining it. So I think Jesus really did rise from the dead.

That's about all I'm going to explain.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain your beliefs to me. I think I understand now.
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 12:56:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/15/2017 12:55:20 AM, janesix wrote:
At 4/15/2017 12:45:56 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 11:50:10 PM, janesix wrote:

"Now, do you want to know why I think Jesus is a prophet or the messiah?"

Yes

It's because of two things. First, that he claimed to be both, and second, that he rose from the dead. It's these two things together that make me think his claim was true.

I have a lot of reasons for thinking Jesus made these claims about himself, and it really would take a lot of writing to flesh them all out. I'm just going to be brief, but if you want a detailed case for it, I would recommend chapter 11 in Jesus and the Victory of God by N.T. Wright. But here are some of the reasons.

1. Jesus was crucified by a Roman prefect, and his claim to be the king of the Jews makes the best sense of this fact.
2. Of the various charges made against Jesus in his trials, all four gospels agree that the one that stuck was his claim to be "The king of the Jews." That's the charge that was placed above his head on the cross.
2. Jesus was called "Christ" in the earliest layers of Christian tradition.
3. The movement was called "Christian" from before the earliest writings of the NT.
4. Jesus named twelve people to lead his movement, symbolizing the reunion of Judah and Israel, which according to Ezekiel 37 was associated with the coming of the messiah.
5. It is unlikely that anybody would start calling Jesus the messiah after his crucifixion because his crucifixion would've proved just the opposite.
6. There are various things Jesus is recorded to have said and done that indicate he thought he was the messiah, e.g. riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.
7. Most of Jesus' parables are about the kingdom of God.
8. Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, which is an allusion to a passage in Daniel that many people in the first century understood in a messianic sense.

Of course you could push me on why I believe these eight things, but I think I'm going to stop with this.

Now, I'm going to tell you the primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead. If you want something more detailed, two books I have found to argue the case well are The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright and The Resurrection of Jesus by Mike Licona. Wright's argument has had a bigger influence on me than Licona's argument.

The primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead is because I don't Christianity could have survived, especially as a messianic movement, unless he was raised from the dead. Why not, you say? Because dying on a cross is the exact opposite of what any first century Jew would expect of the messiah. The expectation of a messiah was an expectation that God would fulfill his promise to always have a man on the throne of David. So the messiah was a king. His coming was supposed to be accompanied by a restoration of national sovereignty (which meant defeating the Romans and ending their rule and oppression). Instead of defeated the Romans, Jesus appeared to have been defeated by the Romans. So the Jews had every reason to think Jesus was not the messiah once he was crucified.

In every other case in the first and second century of somebody claiming to be the messiah or something like the messiah, their movement ended when they died. That included Simon bar Giora who fought the Romans from within the Temple in the first Jewish war, and it included Simon bar Kosiba who fought the Romans in the second Jewish war against Rome. But there were many others. Jesus' movement was the only one to survive the death of its leader.

The reason the first Christians gave for why they continued to believe in Jesus after his death is because he appeared to them alive. These appearances can be explained in one of two ways. Either they say a vision/hallucination/mirage/illusion/whatever, or they saw Jesus himself. If they saw Jesus himself, then Jesus was raised from the dead. The reason I don't believe in any type of hallucination theory is because I don't think a hallucination would be adequate to convince anybody that Jesus had risen from the dead. Lots of people experience grief hallucinations when a loved one dies, but it never leads them to believe their loved one has risen from the dead. I remember in the lat 80's, lots of people claimed to see Elvis alive, but that never lead anybody to believe he had risen from the dead. Lots of people claimed to have seen Jesus' mother, Mary. There have even been mass sightings. But it never leads people to believe Mary rose from the dead.

Imagine somebody you know to be dead appearing before you right now. Imagine what you would really think if that happened. You'd have several options. Maybe you're dreaming. Maybe you're hallucinating. Maybe you're seeing a ghost. Maybe the person never died to begin with. But the last thing you'd think is that they had risen from the dead. It would take much more than merely seeing the person to get you to believe that. The New Testament reports exactly what we would expect if the disciples were to really be convinced that he had risen from the dead. They report on one occasion that they initially thought they were seeing a ghost. Then they report in multiple places that they actually touched him and that he ate in front of them. They put a lot of emphasis on proofs of his physicality. That makes sense to me because that's the only thing that could've proved to them that he rose from the dead, that it was actually him, and that he wasn't just a ghost, and they weren't just imagining it. So I think Jesus really did rise from the dead.

That's about all I'm going to explain.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to explain your beliefs to me. I think I understand now.

You're welcome. Thanks for listening.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
uncung
Posts: 4,039
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 6:29:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

The evidence that God is good and loving (it is one of His attitude beside many attitudes) are He creates nature in harmony, our perfect body shape, the great organized universe and the complicated physics and chemical interaction of materials one another.
The Prophet (pbuh) has said that Allah is beautiful and He loves beauty1. It is for this that the whole of Allah's creation has been designed and created according to the highest heavenly standard of splendor and order impossible to be ever emulated by anyone. According to Ibn al-'Arabi, who epitomized the Sufi speculative ontological thought, the divine beauty through which God is named "Beautiful", and by which He described Himself as loving beauty, is in all things. There is nothing in existence but beauty, for God created the cosmos only in His image, that is, in the image of His infinite beauty. Hence all cosmos with all its objects and events is beautiful.2

Allah says on this: "Such is the Creation of Allah: now show Me what is there that others besides Him have created..." (Luqman 31:11).

"...(Such is) the artistry of Allah, Who disposes of all things in perfect order..." (al-Naml 27:88).

Since man has been created as the vicegerent on earth to whose use all things in the heavens and on earth had been subjected (Luqman 31:20), man stands for an essential part of the intricate picturesque network of creation, serving the Creator's universal plan: "We have indeed created man in the best of moulds" (al-Tin 4).

"It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place, and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape - and made your shapes beautiful -, and has provided for you Sustenance..." (Gafir 40:64)

"He Who created all things in the best way and He began the creation of man from clay" (al-Sajdah 32:7).

Man is created as the most beautiful creature on earth. He is given the power of reasoning and insight. He is created as the vicegerent on earth never to be forsaken by God's words of guidance. This is so lest man should lose his way, rebel against the will and plan of his Lord, and gradually become puffed up with egotism, self-exaltation and innumerable superstitions pertaining to his own existence and existence taken as a whole. When these exceptional qualities of man are paired with one's submission to the Creator, Lord and Cherisher of the worlds, one confidently sets out proving his worth, elevating his status over that of the angels in the process. Conversely, no sooner does one start mishandling and abusing the same qualities and gifts than one starts drifting away from the plane of truth, debasing his self lower than the level of animals in the process.

What is more, Adam, the father of mankind, has been created in Allah's own image, as declared by the Prophet (pbuh)3. This means that "Adam has been bestowed with life, knowledge, power of hearing, seeing, understanding, but the features of Adam are different from those of Allah, only the names are the same, e.g., Allah has life and knowledge and power of understanding, and Adam also has them, but there is no comparison between the Creator and the created thing. As Allah says in the Qur'an: 'There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer' (al-Shura 42:11)."4

While actualizing his vicegerency mission on earth by means of holding fast to the values and philosophy divinely given, as well as by means of constant constructive interaction with the rest of creation, man is bound to comprehend rightly the mission and purpose of creation (including the creation of his very self), penetrating through some of its highest mysteries with his powers of reason and insight. In doing so, man will only be answering the divine call, over and over again reiterated in the Qur'an, the thrust of which is the meticulous study, exploration and reflection on the perfectly executed order in the universe's hierarchy: from the gnat, fly and spider to the sun, moon, stars and other majestic cosmic objects. Man's initial impression of amazement with regard to the awesome sights in the universe, as a result of Allah's supreme artistry, followed by his in-depth study of what is viable thereof, is meant to lead man to an unwavering spiritual awakening, thus prompting all his spiritual and mental faculties to assertively declare: "...Our Lord not for naught hast thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us Salvation from the Chastisement of the Fire" (Alu 'Imran 3:191).

Allah Almighty says - for instance: "He Who created the seven heavens one above another: no want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of the Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw? Again turn thy vision a second time: (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out" (al-Mulk 67:3 - 4).

Also: "On the earth are Signs for those of assured Faith; as also in your own selves: will yet not then see?" (al-Dhariyat 51:20 - 21).

Thus, everything in the universe has been created beautiful, with purpose and in proportion and measure, both qualitatively and quantitatively (al-Qamar 54:49). The traces of divine wisdom and plan underpin each and every aspect of creation. Only man's ungodly and self-centered tempering with the existing total artistic setting is able to render things ugly, harmful, evil and obsolete. Man's own self, status and mission are no exception to this rule, in that man is capable very much of rendering them repulsive, dull, worthless and pathetic, too.

The order and beauty of the earth, of the vast spaces surrounding it, and of the marvelous bodies that follow regular laws of motion in those enormous spaces in the visible world, they are our tangible and all-encompassing reality. However, we were not to stop just at marveling at its corporeal manifestations and the aura they generate. By discovering and mulling over the signs readily available in all things around us -- big or small -- which inevitably point to Allah's Oneness, Presence, Authority and Clemency, we were, furthermore, to try to form from these some a priori intuition of the Supreme Beauty and of the vastly greater invisible world.
illegalcombat
Posts: 1,323
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 6:41:47 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/15/2017 12:45:56 AM, philochristos wrote:
At 4/14/2017 11:50:10 PM, janesix wrote:

"Now, do you want to know why I think Jesus is a prophet or the messiah?"

Yes

It's because of two things. First, that he claimed to be both, and second, that he rose from the dead. It's these two things together that make me think his claim was true.

I have a lot of reasons for thinking Jesus made these claims about himself, and it really would take a lot of writing to flesh them all out. I'm just going to be brief, but if you want a detailed case for it, I would recommend chapter 11 in Jesus and the Victory of God by N.T. Wright. But here are some of the reasons.

1. Jesus was crucified by a Roman prefect, and his claim to be the king of the Jews makes the best sense of this fact.
2. Of the various charges made against Jesus in his trials, all four gospels agree that the one that stuck was his claim to be "The king of the Jews." That's the charge that was placed above his head on the cross.
2. Jesus was called "Christ" in the earliest layers of Christian tradition.
3. The movement was called "Christian" from before the earliest writings of the NT.
4. Jesus named twelve people to lead his movement, symbolizing the reunion of Judah and Israel, which according to Ezekiel 37 was associated with the coming of the messiah.
5. It is unlikely that anybody would start calling Jesus the messiah after his crucifixion because his crucifixion would've proved just the opposite.
6. There are various things Jesus is recorded to have said and done that indicate he thought he was the messiah, e.g. riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.
7. Most of Jesus' parables are about the kingdom of God.
8. Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, which is an allusion to a passage in Daniel that many people in the first century understood in a messianic sense.

Of course you could push me on why I believe these eight things, but I think I'm going to stop with this.

Now, I'm going to tell you the primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead. If you want something more detailed, two books I have found to argue the case well are The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright and The Resurrection of Jesus by Mike Licona. Wright's argument has had a bigger influence on me than Licona's argument.

The primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead is because I don't Christianity could have survived, especially as a messianic movement, unless he was raised from the dead. Why not, you say? Because dying on a cross is the exact opposite of what any first century Jew would expect of the messiah. The expectation of a messiah was an expectation that God would fulfill his promise to always have a man on the throne of David. So the messiah was a king. His coming was supposed to be accompanied by a restoration of national sovereignty (which meant defeating the Romans and ending their rule and oppression). Instead of defeated the Romans, Jesus appeared to have been defeated by the Romans. So the Jews had every reason to think Jesus was not the messiah once he was crucified.

That's not really hard evidence, it's more a speculative psychological, if X were true/false people would or would not Y, Y, therefore X is true.

Put it this way, if some cult leader died today, yet a few of his inner followers claimed he has risen from the dead, imagine the hard evidence you would require to justify that belief.

To a more skeptical minded person, which you would be for a modern day cult leader, I doubt a line of reasoning based on a questionable assertion about what people would or would not believe based on their prior religious beliefs/environment as solid ground to jump then into, beyond reasonable doubt this man has risen from the dead.


In every other case in the first and second century of somebody claiming to be the messiah or something like the messiah, their movement ended when they died. That included Simon bar Giora who fought the Romans from within the Temple in the first Jewish war, and it included Simon bar Kosiba who fought the Romans in the second Jewish war against Rome. But there were many others. Jesus' movement was the only one to survive the death of its leader.

The reason the first Christians gave for why they continued to believe in Jesus after his death is because he appeared to them alive. These appearances can be explained in one of two ways.

What do you mean by first christians ? are you talking about people beyond the inner 12 plus paul ?

I would remind you the mere assertion of "and Jesus appeared to 500" is not more evidence than the mere assertion of " and elvis appeared to a thousand"

Either they say a vision/hallucination/mirage/illusion/whatever, or they saw Jesus himself. If they saw Jesus himself, then Jesus was raised from the dead. The reason I don't believe in any type of hallucination theory is because I don't think a hallucination would be adequate to convince anybody that Jesus had risen from the dead. Lots of people experience grief hallucinations when a loved one dies, but it never leads them to believe their loved one has risen from the dead. I remember in the lat 80's, lots of people claimed to see Elvis alive, but that never lead anybody to believe he had risen from the dead. Lots of people claimed to have seen Jesus' mother, Mary. There have even been mass sightings. But it never leads people to believe Mary rose from the dead.

Imagine somebody you know to be dead appearing before you right now. Imagine what you would really think if that happened. You'd have several options. Maybe you're dreaming. Maybe you're hallucinating. Maybe you're seeing a ghost. Maybe the person never died to begin with. But the last thing you'd think is that they had risen from the dead. It would take much more than merely seeing the person to get you to believe that. The New Testament reports exactly what we would expect if the disciples were to really be convinced that he had risen from the dead. They report on one occasion that they initially thought they were seeing a ghost. Then they report in multiple places that they actually touched him and that he ate in front of them. They put a lot of emphasis on proofs of his physicality. That makes sense to me because that's the only thing that could've proved to them that he rose from the dead, that it was actually him, and that he wasn't just a ghost, and they weren't just imagining it. So I think Jesus really did rise from the dead.

That's about all I'm going to explain.
philochristos
Posts: 3,139
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 8:25:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/15/2017 6:41:47 AM, illegalcombat wrote:
At 4/15/2017 12:45:56 AM, philochristos wrote:

The primary reason I think Jesus was raised from the dead is because I don't Christianity could have survived, especially as a messianic movement, unless he was raised from the dead. Why not, you say? Because dying on a cross is the exact opposite of what any first century Jew would expect of the messiah. The expectation of a messiah was an expectation that God would fulfill his promise to always have a man on the throne of David. So the messiah was a king. His coming was supposed to be accompanied by a restoration of national sovereignty (which meant defeating the Romans and ending their rule and oppression). Instead of defeated the Romans, Jesus appeared to have been defeated by the Romans. So the Jews had every reason to think Jesus was not the messiah once he was crucified.

That's not really hard evidence, it's more a speculative psychological, if X were true/false people would or would not Y, Y, therefore X is true.

It is an explanation of why I believe. If you think my premises are false, then I wish you would just say so. Or if you think my conclusion doesn't follow from my premises, I wish you would say so. Simply telling me it's speculative doesn't do anything to undermine my confidence.

Put it this way, if some cult leader died today, yet a few of his inner followers claimed he has risen from the dead, imagine the hard evidence you would require to justify that belief.

I already gave you the premises that I think justify my belief in the resurrection of Jesus. If all those premises were also true of said cult leader, then I would believe that cult leader had also risen from the dead. Do you want to counter that with speculative psychology about what I would or wouldn't believe?

To a more skeptical minded person, which you would be for a modern day cult leader, I doubt a line of reasoning based on a questionable assertion about what people would or would not believe based on their prior religious beliefs/environment as solid ground to jump then into, beyond reasonable doubt this man has risen from the dead.

It sounds to me that you are making a questionable assertion about what I would or wouldn't believe under given circumstances. Maybe you need harder evidence than speculative psychology. But I don't claim Jesus' resurrection is beyond a reasonable doubt, only that it's true.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 11:33:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

define loving, good..

if you have to punish a child is that not loving or good???
RoderickSpode
Posts: 4,268
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 3:59:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.
Do you believe the slogan "life is good"?
tarantula
Posts: 1,604
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 4:18:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

They obviously haven't read the Bible if they believe that to be true.
janesix
Posts: 8,233
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 5:21:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/15/2017 3:59:12 PM, RoderickSpode wrote:
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.
Do you believe the slogan "life is good"?
Life is both good and bad.
BabyBooms
Posts: 141
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/15/2017 5:25:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/14/2017 7:13:53 PM, janesix wrote:
I've noticed that many theists claim that god is all good and/or all loving.

If you believe this , then WHY? Because I just don't see any evidence for it.

People say that because they believe God created everything they see. Actually YOU created everything you see. You created it and then forgot you did so that you could play in it. But you can remember you created it any time you want to.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.