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Objective/Subjective "Truths"

matt8800
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6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation. If his business fails, he will end up destitute in retirement. He has not asked for your opinion because he sees no need since subjective "truths" are true (according to some theists). His belief that he will end up rich from his new business makes him happy.

Would you encourage him to follow his dreams? Why or why not?
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

If his business fails, he will end up destitute in retirement. He has not asked for your opinion because he sees no need since subjective "truths" are true (according to some theists). His belief that he will end up rich from his new business makes him happy.

I suspect he will change his perception of reality and truth when he discovers that he has no customers. Or, perhaps, when his family has him committed to a mental hospital.
janesix
Posts: 8,233
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6/3/2017 6:27:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

If his business fails, he will end up destitute in retirement. He has not asked for your opinion because he sees no need since subjective "truths" are true (according to some theists). His belief that he will end up rich from his new business makes him happy.

I suspect he will change his perception of reality and truth when he discovers that he has no customers. Or, perhaps, when his family has him committed to a mental hospital.

That's not how it works anymore. People don't get committed just because they are crazy. That's why we see so many crazies running around.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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6/3/2017 6:36:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:27:37 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

If his business fails, he will end up destitute in retirement. He has not asked for your opinion because he sees no need since subjective "truths" are true (according to some theists). His belief that he will end up rich from his new business makes him happy.

I suspect he will change his perception of reality and truth when he discovers that he has no customers. Or, perhaps, when his family has him committed to a mental hospital.

That's not how it works anymore. People don't get committed just because they are crazy. That's why we see so many crazies running around.

I know. Ronald Reagan decided that they were all better off homeless and in prison so they wouldn't "cost us anything". Tax cuts for the rich were far more important. Still are, for the republicans.
Silly_Billy
Posts: 1,253
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6/3/2017 6:36:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

Are you realizing that that is exactly what some Atheists are claiming about Theists? How would you make the determination whether or not someone has a mental disorder for believing in something that can not be scientifically proven to exist? Don't get me wrong, I got several believes myself that can not be proven by science and if that means that I got a mental disorder, than I'm perfectly happy to have that mental disorder.
matt8800
Posts: 2,773
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6/3/2017 6:46:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

How is this scenario different than, say, the belief that virgins can sometimes give birth to babies?

Why do you get to choose which one is reasonable and which one is not when they are both delusional?
janesix
Posts: 8,233
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6/3/2017 6:52:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:46:00 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

How is this scenario different than, say, the belief that virgins can sometimes give birth to babies?

Why do you get to choose which one is reasonable and which one is not when they are both delusional?

Religious beliefs are not included in the dsm 5. Therefore, diagnosis of a mental disorder is arbitrary. You have a mental disorder if THEY say you do.
matt8800
Posts: 2,773
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6/3/2017 7:06:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:52:25 PM, janesix wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:46:00 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

How is this scenario different than, say, the belief that virgins can sometimes give birth to babies?

Why do you get to choose which one is reasonable and which one is not when they are both delusional?

Religious beliefs are not included in the dsm 5. Therefore, diagnosis of a mental disorder is arbitrary. You have a mental disorder if THEY say you do.

I agree that delusion isn't always a dsm 5 mental disorder. PureX was the one that associated delusion with mental disorder.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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6/3/2017 9:33:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:36:41 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

Are you realizing that that is exactly what some Atheists are claiming about Theists?

Yes, but calling someone crazy because they don't accept our idea of reality is not the same as someone being crazy because they can't determine what reality is. There are billions of people in the world that choose a god-based concept of reality, and they are able to function as well as anyone else. That's nothing like believing that unicorns need food and lodging and expending your life savings on that belief. Even if a few atheists are so blinded by their irrational bias that they actually believe that these are the same.

How would you make the determination whether or not someone has a mental disorder for believing in something that can not be scientifically proven to exist?

I don't have to determine the validity of other people's beliefs. They can believe whatever they want. What matters is the validity of their behavior. Matt's friend can believe whatever he wants about unicorns. But when he's about to lose his life savings because of it, then it matters.

Don't get me wrong, I've got several beliefs myself that can not be proven by science and if that means that I've got a mental disorder, than I'm perfectly happy to have that mental disorder.

A mental disorder is something that causes our mind to malfunction. It's not necessarily based on what we believe or don't believe, but more on the ability of our brains to assess and interact effectively with the world around us.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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6/3/2017 9:46:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 6:46:00 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

How is this scenario different than, say, the belief that virgins can sometimes give birth to babies?

Why do you get to choose which one is reasonable and which one is not when they are both delusional?

I don't choose, function does. If the belief 'works' for you then so be it, so long as it doesn't cause you to do harm to others.

The problem is that we keep getting caught up in the idea that there is one right truth. When in reality there are ideas that work, and ideas that don't work. There are ideas that work better than other ideas. And there are ideas that work well for the individual, but not for the human collective. And there are ideas that work for the human collective, but not so well for the individual.

Thus, "truth" is subjective, and is therefor, relative. It's relative to the individual, and/or to the collective, and it's relative to it's positive or negative effectiveness in the world around us. There is no one right answer, or one right idea. Because "rightness" is relative.
matt8800
Posts: 2,773
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6/3/2017 10:14:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 9:46:13 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:46:00 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

How is this scenario different than, say, the belief that virgins can sometimes give birth to babies?

Why do you get to choose which one is reasonable and which one is not when they are both delusional?

I don't choose, function does. If the belief 'works' for you then so be it, so long as it doesn't cause you to do harm to others.

The problem is that we keep getting caught up in the idea that there is one right truth. When in reality there are ideas that work, and ideas that don't work. There are ideas that work better than other ideas. And there are ideas that work well for the individual, but not for the human collective. And there are ideas that work for the human collective, but not so well for the individual.

Thus, "truth" is subjective, and is therefor, relative. It's relative to the individual, and/or to the collective, and it's relative to it's positive or negative effectiveness in the world around us. There is no one right answer, or one right idea. Because "rightness" is relative.

Just because something seems to work for some people does not make it true. A delusion is not defined by whether it makes someone feel good or not. Sometimes people can be happier with delusions than without but I wanted to transcend delusion so that I would have a shot at becoming my highest self. I do not believe an idea can simultaneously be a delusion and a truth.

Others can choose delusion for themselves if it does not impact me in a negative way but I want more for myself. Unfortunately, there are some negative consequences to delusion depending on the delusion and the person.

People have a tendency towards tribalism. Society puts pressure on people to behave in certain ways and may attempt to restrict behaviors and actions in ways that may be unhealthy because people tend to like social consistency. The predominant delusions of society of the time affect those pressures. We don't kill people for working on Sunday anymore but society has other ways of punishing dissidents.

I do not believe that humanity will reach the pinnacle of the greatness that it could be while welcoming delusion.
Silly_Billy
Posts: 1,253
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6/3/2017 11:02:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 9:33:48 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:36:41 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
Are you realizing that that is exactly what some Atheists are claiming about Theists?

Yes, but calling someone crazy because they don't accept our idea of reality is not the same as someone being crazy because they can't determine what reality is. There are billions of people in the world that choose a god-based concept of reality, and they are able to function as well as anyone else. That's nothing like believing that unicorns need food and lodging and expending your life savings on that belief. Even if a few atheists are so blinded by their irrational bias that they actually believe that these are the same.

I find it difficult to see what the difference is between someone not being crazy because he doesn't accept our idea of reality and someone being crazy because he can't determine what reality is. It seems to me that everybody defines a reality. The person believing in unicorns has defined his reality to be one that includes unicorns. But I do agree with you that believing in a God is not a mental disorder nor does it even come close to resembling a mental disorder.

How would you make the determination whether or not someone has a mental disorder for believing in something that can not be scientifically proven to exist?

I don't have to determine the validity of other people's beliefs. They can believe whatever they want. What matters is the validity of their behavior. Matt's friend can believe whatever he wants about unicorns. But when he's about to lose his life savings because of it, then it matters.

Agreed, I think that is an important distinction.

A mental disorder is something that causes our mind to malfunction. It's not necessarily based on what we believe or don't believe, but more on the ability of our brains to assess and interact effectively with the world around us.

I do not intend to put words into your mouth but it sounds a bit like you are saying that anyone who can not interact effectively with the world around him must by what you are saying have a malfunctioning mind. In other words, if a person living in a totalitarian state pursues freedom, he would not be interacting effectively with his totalitarian society and he would therefor have a mental disorder. I do think that you have a point but that point is not absolute. What you said sounds true but only for as long as we are a part of a sane society.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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6/4/2017 4:45:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 10:14:49 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/3/2017 9:46:13 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:46:00 PM, matt8800 wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:16:00 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation.

"Subjective truth" is determined by it's alignment with one's personal experience and understanding of reality. Your friend has merely formulated an opinion about reality that's based, apparently, on some sort of mental disorder.

How is this scenario different than, say, the belief that virgins can sometimes give birth to babies?

Why do you get to choose which one is reasonable and which one is not when they are both delusional?

I don't choose, function does. If the belief 'works' for you then so be it, so long as it doesn't cause you to do harm to others.

The problem is that we keep getting caught up in the idea that there is one right truth. When in reality there are ideas that work, and ideas that don't work. There are ideas that work better than other ideas. And there are ideas that work well for the individual, but not for the human collective. And there are ideas that work for the human collective, but not so well for the individual.

Thus, "truth" is subjective, and is therefor, relative. It's relative to the individual, and/or to the collective, and it's relative to it's positive or negative effectiveness in the world around us. There is no one right answer, or one right idea. Because "rightness" is relative.

Just because something seems to work for some people does not make it true.

It makes it true for the people it's working for. It's just not true for the people it doesn't work for.

A delusion is not defined by whether it makes someone feel good or not.

I'm not talking just about "feeling good". I'm talking about functionality relative to our expectations, and desires.

Sometimes people can be happier with delusions than without but I wanted to transcend delusion so that I would have a shot at becoming my highest self.

Ultimately, we cannot transcend "delusion". We don't have that capacity. We are bound to create conceptions of reality in our minds based on insufficient information. And those concepts will be "delusional". That's just the way it is. It's time to stop pretending that we can obtain the "one truly true truth". Some ideas of truth are better than others. But in the end it's "better" is relative. In the end what matters is what works.

I do not believe an idea can simultaneously be a delusion and a truth.

Others can choose delusion for themselves if it does not impact me in a negative way but I want more for myself.

You want what you cannot have except by delusion: you want certainty. You want to know you are 'right'.

Unfortunately, there are some negative consequences to delusion depending on the delusion and the person.

Yes there are. Welcome to the human condition. Not being omniscient has consequences, and they aren't all good.

People have a tendency towards tribalism. Society puts pressure on people to behave in certain ways and may attempt to restrict behaviors and actions in ways that may be unhealthy because people tend to like social consistency.

We don't just like it; we need it to survive and thrive as a species.

The predominant delusions of society of the time affect those pressures. We don't kill people for working on Sunday anymore but society has other ways of punishing dissidents.

Yes it does. Being progressively minded has it's dangers. I'm an artist, tell me about it!

I do not believe that humanity will reach the pinnacle of the greatness that it could be while welcoming delusion.

I don't believe we will ever transcend our delusion until we can embrace it for what it is. And by 'embrace it' I mean accept it, and understand it, and even appreciate it for it's effective value. So far we aren't even close. Few of us are able or willing to even acknowledge it, except in someone else. And only then because they're 'different'.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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6/4/2017 5:09:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 11:02:27 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 6/3/2017 9:33:48 PM, PureX wrote:
At 6/3/2017 6:36:41 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
Are you realizing that that is exactly what some Atheists are claiming about Theists?

Yes, but calling someone crazy because they don't accept our idea of reality is not the same as someone being crazy because they can't determine what reality is. There are billions of people in the world that choose a god-based concept of reality, and they are able to function as well as anyone else. That's nothing like believing that unicorns need food and lodging and expending your life savings on that belief. Even if a few atheists are so blinded by their irrational bias that they actually believe that these are the same.

I find it difficult to see what the difference is between someone not being crazy because he doesn't accept our idea of reality and someone being crazy because he can't determine what reality is.

One is a choice and the other is a perceptual malfunction, I think.

It seems to me that everybody defines a reality. The person believing in unicorns has defined his reality to be one that includes unicorns. But I do agree with you that believing in a God is not a mental disorder nor does it even come close to resembling a mental disorder.

Nor is it similar to believing in unicorns.

How would you make the determination whether or not someone has a mental disorder for believing in something that can not be scientifically proven to exist?

I don't have to determine the validity of other people's beliefs. They can believe whatever they want. What matters is the validity of their behavior. Matt's friend can believe whatever he wants about unicorns. But when he's about to lose his life savings because of it, then it matters.

Agreed, I think that is an important distinction.

A mental disorder is something that causes our mind to malfunction. It's not necessarily based on what we believe or don't believe, but more on the ability of our brains to assess and interact effectively with the world around us.

I do not intend to put words into your mouth but it sounds a bit like you are saying that anyone who can not interact effectively with the world around him must by what you are saying have a malfunctioning mind.

Yes, unless they are choosing to be deliberately ineffective. Which in itself implies a malfunction, as the purpose of our having a mind is to enable us as social/cooperative life forms.

In other words, if a person living in a totalitarian state pursues freedom, he would not be interacting effectively with his totalitarian society and he would therefor have a mental disorder. I do think that you have a point but that point is not absolute. What you said sounds true but only for as long as we are a part of a sane society.

Well, it's a matter of maintaining a proper balance. A healthy society needs progressives to explore new ways of thinking and doing things, so that their society can adapt and improve itself. But it also needs conservatives to maintain the status quo, and give society it's strength and cohesion in the face of conditional changes. If the society becomes too conservative, it becomes very dangerous to be a progressive, and as those progressives are silenced, the society becomes too rigid, and stagnates, and then becomes vulnerable to conditional changes. And if it becomes to progressive, it loses cohesion and disintegrates, falling into chaos. A healthy society needs to maintain and appreciate both of these human inclinations, perhaps stressing one or the other somewhat, depending on the conditions of their time and place.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 5,316
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6/4/2017 6:20:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 6/3/2017 5:02:24 PM, matt8800 wrote:
Secularists believe that truth is an objective term. I have seen many theists on this site that say that "truth" is subjective and biased.

Here is a question that I have for theists that believe truth is subjective:

The scenario is that you have a theist friend that decided to invest his entire retirement savings into a pet unicorn grooming business.

It is his subjective "truth" that many people own pet unicorns and need boarding and grooming for their unicorns when they are on vacation. If his business fails, he will end up destitute in retirement. He has not asked for your opinion because he sees no need since subjective "truths" are true (according to some theists). His belief that he will end up rich from his new business makes him happy.

Would you encourage him to follow his dreams? Why or why not?

Interesting..
Keeping on this , if you somehow got the money he is giving. And he thought he still gave the money , his still all good hey ? Nothing wouldchange for him hey ?

He dies.
You have the money ( its put aside ) you give it to the " real life " people you thought he loved the most in his life. ( this would mess with your head big time I think. ) the whole moral thing.
I don't know where I'm going with this now,
I'll get back to you.

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