Total Posts:343|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Concept of spiritual death and original sin

Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Christian concept of spiritual death and original sin is absurd.

It began with God warning Adam he would certainly die if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

There is no indication from scriptures that Adam and Eve knew what death was. God did not give them any examples of what death was. God did not say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was poisonous. So even though they knew not to eat the forbidden fruit, they did not know why not.

Eve repeats her understanding of God's warning to the talking serpent verbatim.
Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

The talking serpent tells Eve God is lying and explains why.
Genesis 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Now God did not warn Adam and Eve about the talking serpent or that they should avoid it also. So Eve explains why she decided to eat the fruit. She saw the fruit was good for food as she was also keen on gaining wisdom which were hardly evil or sinful motives.
Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

God enters the garden and finds them hiding from him because of their nakedness.

Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

God immediately figures they disobeyed his warning and ate the fruit. Their sin was hiding from him because they were naked. That would not be considered a sin today neither would eating a fruit be considered disobedience.

We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

Now Christians have come up with the concept of spiritual death. According to Christians, Adam did not die physically that day, but he died spiritually. Can a single act of disobedience which did not kill Adam and Eve physically could kill them spiritually? Spiritual death is separation from God over a period of time and not a single act of disobedience as the Christians claim.

There are three important types of death in the Word of God: spiritual death, physical death and eternal death. Each death is separation.

The bible tells us when a person dies physically, his spirit separated from his dead body.
Physical death is the separation of the spirit and/or soul from the body. James 2:26 says, "the body without the spirit is dead." Whenever the soul leaves the body, physical death ensues.

Then there is the spiritual death.
Spiritual death is "separation from God over time."

And finally eternal death.
This death is spoken of in Revelation 20:12-15, and it refers to "eternal separation from God." This state is spoken of as that of perishing.

We know Adam and Eve did not die physically that day after eating the fruit. But Christians claim they died spiritually because they disobeyed God. What was so egregious about their disobedience that it upset God? They felt their nakedness and hid from him. God was denied seeing their naked bodies which he must have held in great delight and that greatly upset him. So who has the problem, God the voyeur or Adam and Eve showing modesty?

Running around naked is an unnatural state for humans because unlike animals they do not have body coverings like fur or extremely thick skins to protect them against the elements. It was rather absurd for God to be upset with Adam and Eve who realized they were naked and covered their body with leaves.

Physical death is absence of life.
Spiritual death is absence of God in ones life.
Adam and Eve did not die physically after eating the fruit, nor did they die spiritual with a single act of disobedience. They continued to worship God and multiplied in number and remained blessed the remainder of their lives. They even fulfilled God's promise in Jesus.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers he will crush[b] your head, and you will strike his heel."

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

Note: even Jesus covered his nakedness by wearing clothes and like the tree of knowledge taught the people the difference between good and evil. How could this knowledge of good and evil be bad if Jesus thought it was worth his life to teach it?
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/4/2017 8:15:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul"s statement, "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell."

If original sin is not hereditary then neither would spiritual death be hereditary.

We know God was upset with Adam and Eve for hiding their naked bodies from him. We also know what happens when he is attracted to a naked body like virgin Mary. He fornicated and penetrated her and got her pregnant. The God of the bible is rash and impulsive. He destroyed all living creatures with a flood except what could fit in a boat. But immediately after regretted it and vowed never to do it again. God is potrayed in the bible as an impulsive bumbling genocidal maniac

Genesis 6:7
So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created--and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground--for I regret that I have made them."

Genesis 9:11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be destroyed by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

Spiritual death is separation from God over time. Christians see the separation from God after Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden as their spiritual death. But scriptures tell us God's motives were much more sinister. God was afraid Adam and Eve would become like Gods and live forever.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

So God banished Adam and Eve from the garden and put angels to guard the tree of life.

Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/4/2017 8:20:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

If we are accurate, God said:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

The meaning is, if they eat, with death they shall die. And so, it happened, after they ate, they were expelled to this first death that some call life. By what the Bible tells, this is not actually life, but the first death, and with this death people shall die. Every moment all people die slowly in this "life". All of your sells are dying, but you don"t die instantly, because there is born new cells constantly till some point.

This is why Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
John 5:24

So, this is not real life. :)

And later this first death will be cast into the fire lake:

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/4/2017 8:41:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2017 8:20:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

If we are accurate, God said:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

The meaning is, if they eat, with death they shall die. And so, it happened, after they ate, they were expelled to this first death that some call life. By what the Bible tells, this is not actually life, but the first death, and with this death people shall die. Every moment all people die slowly in this "life". All of your sells are dying, but you don"t die instantly, because there is born new cells constantly till some point.

God says on day you eat the fruit you will certainly die. Adam did not die after eating the fruit. Had went on to live to 930 years. The fruit actually prolonged his life.

This is why Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
John 5:24

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
So, this is not real life. :)

This is the everlasting life that the tree of life offered which God denied Adam and Eve by putting Angels to guard it.

And later this first death will be cast into the fire lake:

That is the third death which is eternal death. The first is physical death, the second is spiritual death.
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15
It is called the second death after judgement is passed. The first death is physical death. Which make spiritual death academic.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 12:47:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The concepts portrayed in the Genesis account are universal.
You have levels in all of scripture, you always operate from the ,lowest possible, and even then it's corrupted and twisted.

Original sin is universal, as it is representative of the flesh nature of man. It's only "original" in the sense we are born with flesh desires. This is a universal principle and this is what spirituality seeks to address.
"Spiritual death" of course then, is the result of living life through carnality and desires of the flesh and not that of the spiritual or conscious path. This is a universal understanding.

Then you have the "serpent", this is representative of mankind and the temptations we face both in the mind and flesh and even emotions..... the pull of the carnal nature to do evil or negative ect ect.
The tree of course is representative of the mind, and the partaking of the mind is the first fall of man. That is the knowledge and experience of duality....come on man!
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 7:16:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2017 8:20:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

If we are accurate, God said:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

The meaning is, if they eat, with death they shall die. And so, it happened, after they ate, they were expelled to this first death that some call life. By what the Bible tells, this is not actually life, but the first death, and with this death people shall die. Every moment all people die slowly in this "life". All of your sells are dying, but you don"t die instantly, because there is born new cells constantly till some point.

This is why Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
John 5:24

So, this is not real life. :)

And later this first death will be cast into the fire lake:

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Genesis 2: 17; KJV; "But of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The meaning is, in the day he ate of it, in that day he would die.

From the book of Jubilees 29-31; "Thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he 30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

Adam died at the age of 930, 70 years before the close of the day in which he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Colossians 2: 16-17; "Let no man therefore judge you, in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the New Moon or of the Sabbath day: which are but the shadow of things to come in the future, etc.

The weekly Sabbath was but a shadow of the great Sabbath of one thousand years of peace under the rule of 'The Son of Man' from his throne in Jerusalem.

Adam died in the first day or first period of one thousand year of this age of man, the seventh day is the great Sabbath, the day of the Lord, in which he will judge the whole world with justice for tat seventh period of one thousand years.
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 7:19:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 7:16:35 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 10/4/2017 8:20:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

If we are accurate, God said:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

The meaning is, if they eat, with death they shall die. And so, it happened, after they ate, they were expelled to this first death that some call life. By what the Bible tells, this is not actually life, but the first death, and with this death people shall die. Every moment all people die slowly in this "life". All of your sells are dying, but you don"t die instantly, because there is born new cells constantly till some point.

This is why Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
John 5:24

So, this is not real life. :)

And later this first death will be cast into the fire lake:

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Genesis 2: 17; KJV; "But of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The meaning is, in the day he ate of it, in that day he would die.

From the book of Jubilees 29-31; "Thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he 30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

Adam died at the age of 930, 70 years before the close of the day in which he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Colossians 2: 16-17; "Let no man therefore judge you, in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the New Moon or of the Sabbath day: which are but the shadow of things to come in the future, etc.

The weekly Sabbath was but a shadow of the great Sabbath of one thousand years of peace under the rule of 'The Son of Man' from his throne in Jerusalem.

Adam died in the first day or first period of one thousand year of this age of man, the seventh day is the great Sabbath, the day of the Lord, in which he will judge the whole world with justice for tat seventh period of one thousand years.

Edit post $6.

From the book of Jubilees; Chapter 4: 29-31; "Thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation,
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 12:13:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 12:47:45 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
The concepts portrayed in the Genesis account are universal.
You have levels in all of scripture, you always operate from the ,lowest possible, and even then it's corrupted and twisted.

Original sin is universal, as it is representative of the flesh nature of man. It's only "original" in the sense we are born with flesh desires. This is a universal principle and this is what spirituality seeks to address.
"Spiritual death" of course then, is the result of living life through carnality and desires of the flesh and not that of the spiritual or conscious path. This is a universal understanding.

Then you have the "serpent", this is representative of mankind and the temptations we face both in the mind and flesh and even emotions..... the pull of the carnal nature to do evil or negative ect ect.
The tree of course is representative of the mind, and the partaking of the mind is the first fall of man. That is the knowledge and experience of duality....come on man!

Even before Eve ate the fruit she expressed her desire for wisdom. So desire was very much a part of God's creation.
The events potrayed in Genesis are scientifically impossible. Even Christians accept there are problems when taking the bible is taken literally and lean towards a metaphorical interpretation of Genesis which then is only limited by the readers imagination.
This is why we have 30,000 denominations of Christians. That is beyond duality, Christianity has gone amok.

Original sin is not universal. Even the Jews who wrote the bible did not believe in original sin.
"Jews do not believe in the doctrine of original sin. This is a Christian belief based on Paul"s statement, "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12). The doctrine was fully developed by the church father, Augustine of Hippo (354-430).

According to this doctrine, hereditary sinfulness is inescapably transmitted to human beings by their parents, starting with Adam and Eve. It is alleged that only acceptance of Jesus as savior from sin can redeem a person from sin. All those who do not accept Jesus as their savior from sin are condemned to eternal suffering in hell."

If original sin is not hereditary then neither would spiritual death be hereditary."

From the Apologetic Press. Bible inerrancy.
http://apologeticspress.org...

"If God is perfect, and if the Bible is the Word of God (which it claims to be, as the previous sections demonstrate), then it follows that, in its original form as it initially came from God, the Bible must be perfect. The Scriptures cannot err if they are "borne" of God. Try as one might, logically, one cannot have it both ways. The Bible is either from God (and thus flawless in its original autographs), or it contains mistakes, and therefore did not come from the God of truth. There is no middle ground."

WHAT WAS THE VIEW OF JESUS AND THE
BIBLE WRITERS TOWARD SCRIPTURE?

What liberal theologians do not tell their readers is that the Bible itself provides compelling evidence about the nature of its inspiration. Perhaps of most significance is the fact that neither Jesus nor any Bible writer ever called into question a single passage of Scripture. Jesus and the writers of Scripture believed in the truthfulness and historical reliability of even the most disputed parts of the Old Testament. Notice a few examples.

While speaking to the Pharisees in the region of Judea beyond the Jordan, Jesus confirmed His belief in the real existence of an original couple created during the Creation week (Matthew 19:4; cf. Genesis 2:24).

In writing to the church at Corinth, Paul affirmed his belief in Adam as the first human (1 Corinthians 15:45). Then, in his first letter to Timothy, he attested to the fact that Eve was created after Adam (2:13; cf. Genesis 2:7,21-25).

Paul regarded the serpent"s deception of Eve as a historical event (2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Timothy 2:13-14; cf. Genesis 3).

Both Jesus and the apostle Peter believed that Noah was a real person, and that the global Flood was a historical event (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5; 3:6; cf. Genesis 6-8).

Jesus and Peter also affirmed their belief in the historicity of Lot, and in the destruction of Sodom (Luke 17:28-32; 2 Peter 2:6-7; cf. Genesis 19).

Paul attested to the Israelites" crossing of the Red Sea, and affirmed his belief in their drinking water from a rock (1 Corinthians 10:1-4; cf. Hebrews 11:29; cf. Exodus 14), while Jesus confirmed His belief in the miraculous healing of the Israelites who fixed their eyes on the bronze snake set up by Moses in the desert (John 3:14; cf. Numbers 21:4-9).

Finally, unlike many people today, including some of those who claim to believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, Jesus regarded the account of Jonah"s three days and nights in the belly of a great fish as a historical event (Matthew 12:39-40).

Numerous other examples such as these exist, and demonstrate the trustworthiness of Scripture. The Old Testament writers who came after Moses expressed total trust in the Pentateuch, as well as in each others" writings. Furthermore, Jesus and the New Testament writers always viewed statements by each other and the Old Testament writers as being truthful, regardless of the subject matter."

Jesus himself confessed everything he said was figurative. He only spoke in parables which were figurative.
John 16:25 "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father.

But that time never came. Jesus was crucified shortly after. So everything Christisns learnt from Jesus's teachings are only figurative and not fact based.
TheChristWithin
Posts: 977
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 12:27:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Christian concept of spiritual death and original sin is absurd.

It began with God warning Adam he would certainly die if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Which is true.

Genesis 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

There is no indication from scriptures that Adam and Eve knew what death was.
God did not give them any examples of what death was.

You are currently dying you fool; death is happening moment by moment, you are either learning from it, or you are not.


God did not say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was poisonous. So even though they knew not to eat the forbidden fruit, they did not know why not.

That's exactly what overall lesson is about; why not to eat from the tree. You can't impart this beforehand because the lesson involves you actually eating from the tree and tasting death first-hand, which is happening, moment by moment you fool. You are either paying attention, or you are not.

Eve repeats her understanding of God's warning to the talking serpent verbatim.
Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

The talking serpent tells Eve God is lying

Illiterate fool; nowhere did the serpent say God was lying, because God is not lying. You are currently dying, are you not? So how is God lying? The question you are supposed to be asking is, what does it mean to eat from the tree? How am I doing that? Do I even REALIZE I am doing that? Are your eyes opened or closed? Adam and Eve's eyes didn't open until after they REALIZED their nakedness. Before they ate they knew not they were naked.

and explains why.
Genesis 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

And that offer is always on the table; and becoming "like" God; to know good and evil, is to know WHY NOT to eat from the tree in the first place; to learn this is to become "like" God.


Now God did not warn Adam and Eve about the talking serpent or that they should avoid it also.

Good point; because God JUST FORBADE the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and you idiots start calling the serpent EVIL. The serpent is NEUTRAL. To believe it is deceiving/evil/Satan is disobeying God's very first commandment. Yeah, religious people are that stupid.

So Eve explains why she decided to eat the fruit. She saw the fruit was good for food as she was also keen on gaining wisdom which were hardly evil or sinful motives.

Good point! That's because they weren't.

Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

God enters the garden and finds them hiding from him because of their nakedness.

And...

Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked?

...they REALIZED...

Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

God immediately figures they disobeyed his warning and ate the fruit. Their sin was hiding from him because they were naked. That would not be considered a sin today neither would eating a fruit be considered disobedience.

...they were naked. This created fear of judgment / shame, which is why God asked "Who told you that you were naked?" because even God himself didn't tell him that. Who told them? Their own shame of their nakedness after their "eyes were opened".

We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

Adam represents "man". You are man. You are dying, and will die, and will taste death. Day is not literal; the day you eat of it you will produce the effect of what you experience as "life" which is actually slow death.

Now Christians have come up with the concept of spiritual death. According to Christians, Adam did not die physically that day, but he died spiritually. Can a single act of disobedience which did not kill Adam and Eve physically could kill them spiritually? Spiritual death is separation from God over a period of time and not a single act of disobedience as the Christians claim.

There are three important types of death in the Word of God: spiritual death, physical death and eternal death. Each death is separation.

The bible tells us when a person dies physically, his spirit separated from his dead body.
Physical death is the separation of the spirit and/or soul from the body. James 2:26 says, "the body without the spirit is dead." Whenever the soul leaves the body, physical death ensues.

Then there is the spiritual death.
Spiritual death is "separation from God over time."

And finally eternal death.
This death is spoken of in Revelation 20:12-15, and it refers to "eternal separation from God." This state is spoken of as that of perishing.

We know Adam and Eve did not die physically that day after eating the fruit. But Christians claim they died spiritually because they disobeyed God. What was so egregious about their disobedience that it upset God? They felt their nakedness and hid from him. God was denied seeing their naked bodies which he must have held in great delight and that greatly upset him. So who has the problem, God the voyeur or Adam and Eve showing modesty?

This is a terrible Christian apologetic interpretation and I don't recognize it as anything but nonsense.


Running around naked is an unnatural state for humans because unlike animals they do not have body coverings like fur or extremely thick skins to protect them against the elements. It was rather absurd for God to be upset with Adam and Eve who realized they were naked and covered their body with leaves.

I think you missed the point; the meaning of nakedness.

Physical death is absence of life.
Spiritual death is absence of God in ones life.
Adam and Eve did not die physically after eating the fruit, nor did they die spiritual with a single act of disobedience. They continued to worship God and multiplied in number and remained blessed the remainder of their lives. They even fulfilled God's promise in Jesus.

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring[a] and hers he will crush[b] your head, and you will strike his heel."

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

And here we are.

The fundamental error is assuming the serpent is evil despite God forbidding that tree before-hand.
List of Trolls (ongoing)
21stCenturyIconoclast
bulproof
Deb-8-A-Bull
dee-em
Gentorev
Goldtop
Harikrish

List of Racists (ongoing)
Harikrish (blacks and Jews)
Mingodalia (white males)
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 12:28:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 7:16:35 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 10/4/2017 8:20:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

If we are accurate, God said:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

The meaning is, if they eat, with death they shall die. And so, it happened, after they ate, they were expelled to this first death that some call life. By what the Bible tells, this is not actually life, but the first death, and with this death people shall die. Every moment all people die slowly in this "life". All of your sells are dying, but you don"t die instantly, because there is born new cells constantly till some point.

This is why Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
John 5:24

So, this is not real life. :)

And later this first death will be cast into the fire lake:

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Genesis 2: 17; KJV; "But of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The meaning is, in the day he ate of it, in that day he would die.

From the book of Jubilees 29-31; "Thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he 30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

Adam died at the age of 930, 70 years before the close of the day in which he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Colossians 2: 16-17; "Let no man therefore judge you, in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the New Moon or of the Sabbath day: which are but the shadow of things to come in the future, etc.

The weekly Sabbath was but a shadow of the great Sabbath of one thousand years of peace under the rule of 'The Son of Man' from his throne in Jerusalem.

Adam died in the first day or first period of one thousand year of this age of man, the seventh day is the great Sabbath, the day of the Lord, in which he will judge the whole world with justice for tat seventh period of one thousand years.

Jonah lived 3 days in the belly of the fish. This were three 24 hour days.

Jesus said destroy this Temple and he will raise it in 3 days. Those were three 24 hour days.

Adams life was prolonged after eating the fruit which went against God's warning he would certainly die when he ate it.

Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Bible Hub

Most Christians don't know about the 24 hour day because they think it is different each day.
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 1:27:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 12:28:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/5/2017 7:16:35 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 10/4/2017 8:20:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

If we are accurate, God said:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

The meaning is, if they eat, with death they shall die. And so, it happened, after they ate, they were expelled to this first death that some call life. By what the Bible tells, this is not actually life, but the first death, and with this death people shall die. Every moment all people die slowly in this "life". All of your sells are dying, but you don"t die instantly, because there is born new cells constantly till some point.

This is why Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
John 5:24

So, this is not real life. :)

And later this first death will be cast into the fire lake:

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Genesis 2: 17; KJV; "But of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The meaning is, in the day he ate of it, in that day he would die.

From the book of Jubilees 29-31; "Thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he 30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

Adam died at the age of 930, 70 years before the close of the day in which he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Colossians 2: 16-17; "Let no man therefore judge you, in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the New Moon or of the Sabbath day: which are but the shadow of things to come in the future, etc.

The weekly Sabbath was but a shadow of the great Sabbath of one thousand years of peace under the rule of 'The Son of Man' from his throne in Jerusalem.

Adam died in the first day or first period of one thousand year of this age of man, the seventh day is the great Sabbath, the day of the Lord, in which he will judge the whole world with justice for tat seventh period of one thousand years.

Jonah lived 3 days in the belly of the fish. This were three 24 hour days.


Correct!


Jesus said destroy this Temple and he will raise it in 3 days. Those were three 24 hour days.


No! Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which the Lord who had filled him with his spirit commanded him to say.

The Lord who filled the man Jesus with his spirit on the day of his baptism, which was the day that he born of the spirit, and was chosen as the heir and successor of the Lord, when the heavenly voice was heard to say, 'You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

The Lord, who said through his obedient servant that he had filled with his spirit; " destroy this Temple and in 3 days, I [the Lord] will raise it up.

Jesus did not raise his own body from death, it was the Lord, whose earthly temple, 'the man Jesus,' that he had filled with his spirit, who raised that Temple.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 30-31; For HE has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.


Adams life was prolonged after eating the fruit which went against God's warning he would certainly die when he ate it.


Wrong! "On the day that ye eat thereof, on that day will you die, and Adam died 930 years after he, the glorious heavenly simulacrum, had been expelled from heaven and clothed with animal skin, nerves bone and muscles, 70 years before the close of the first day of one thousand years.


Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Bible Hub


Wrong! "Of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil thou shalt not eat, for on the day that thou eat thereof, on that day you will die."


Most Christians don't know about the 24 hour day because they think it is different each day.


How long is a day? The day of the Lord is a thousand years. The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period,
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 1:42:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 12:27:27 PM, TheChristWithin wrote:
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
The Christian concept of spiritual death and original sin is absurd.

It began with God warning Adam he would certainly die if he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Which is true.

Genesis 2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

There is no indication from scriptures that Adam and Eve knew what death was.
God did not give them any examples of what death was.

You are currently dying you fool; death is happening moment by moment, you are either learning from it, or you are not.


God never explained to Adam what death was. God only spoke of life and living creatures upto that point.
The word death would be meaningless to Adam and Eve being the first creation and never knowing what death was. Learn to read you mutt.
God did not say the tree of knowledge of good and evil was poisonous. So even though they knew not to eat the forbidden fruit, they did not know why not.

That's exactly what overall lesson is about; why not to eat from the tree. You can't impart this beforehand because the lesson involves you actually eating from the tree and tasting death first-hand, which is happening, moment by moment

God did not say go eat the fruit and learn. He told them they would die if they ate the fruit.
Eve repeats her understanding of God's warning to the talking serpent verbatim.
Genesis 3:2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.""

The talking serpent tells Eve God is lying

Illiterate fool; nowhere did the serpent say God was lying, because God is not lying. You are currently dying, are you not? So how is God lying? The question you are supposed to be asking is, what does it mean to eat from the tree? How am I doing that? Do I even REALIZE I am doing that? Are your eyes opened or closed? Adam and Eve's eyes didn't open until after they REALIZED their nakedness. Before they ate they knew not they were naked.

The scene is the Garden you mutt. The serpent said they would not die if they ate the fruit. So God was lying and explains why.
Genesis 3:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

And that offer is always on the table; and becoming "like" God; to know good and evil, is to know WHY NOT to eat from the tree in the first place; to learn this is to become "like" God.


They became like God, you mutt. Read your bible.
Now God did not warn Adam and Eve about the talking serpent or that they should avoid it also.

Good point; because God JUST FORBADE the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and you idiots start calling the serpent EVIL. The serpent is NEUTRAL. To believe it is deceiving/evil/Satan is disobeying God's very first commandment. Yeah, religious people are that stupid.

The serpent was the devil.
So Eve explains why she decided to eat the fruit. She saw the fruit was good for food as she was also keen on gaining wisdom which were hardly evil or sinful motives.

Good point! That's because they weren't.

Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

God enters the garden and finds them hiding from him because of their nakedness.

And...

Genesis 3:8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"
10 He answered, "I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid."
11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked?

...they REALIZED...

Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

God immediately figures they disobeyed his warning and ate the fruit. Their sin was hiding from him because they were naked. That would not be considered a sin today neither would eating a fruit be considered disobedience.

...they were naked. This created fear of judgment / shame, which is why God asked "Who told you that you were naked?" because even God himself didn't tell him that. Who told them? Their own shame of their nakedness after their "eyes were opened".

God enjoyed watching them naked.its called voyeurism.
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

Adam represents "man". You are man. You are dying, and will die, and will taste death. Day is not literal; the day you eat of it you will produce the effect of what you experience as "life" which is actually slow death.

Life is the opposite of death, you mutt.
Now Christians have come up with the concept of spiritual death. According to Christians, Adam did not die physically that day, but he died spiritually. Can a single act of disobedience which did not kill Adam and Eve physically could kill them spiritually? Spiritual death is separation from God over a period of time and not a single act of disobedience as the Christians claim.

There are three important types of death in the Word of God: spiritual death, physical death and eternal death. Each death is separation.

The bible tells us when a person dies physically, his spirit separated from his dead body.
Physical death is the separation of the spirit and/or soul from the body. James 2:26 says, "the body without the spirit is dead." Whenever the soul leaves the body, physical death ensues.

Then there is the spiritual death.
Spiritual death is "separation from God over time."

And finally eternal death.
This death is spoken of in Revelation 20:12-15, and it refers to "eternal separation from God." This state is spoken of as that of perishing.

We know Adam and Eve did not die physically that day after eating the fruit. But Christians claim they died spiritually because they disobeyed God. What was so egregious about their disobedience that it upset God? They felt their nakedness and hid from him. God was denied seeing their naked bodies which he must have held in great delight and that greatly upset him. So who has the problem, God the voyeur or Adam and Eve showing modesty?

This is a terrible Christian apologetic interpretation and I don't recognize it as anything but nonsense.

The only one upset was God seeing the naked bodies covered.
Running around naked is an unnatural state for humans because unlike animals they do not have body coverings like fur or extremely thick skins to protect them against the elements. It was rather absurd for God to be upset with Adam and Eve who realized they were naked and covered their body with leaves.

I think you missed the point; the meaning of nakedness.

They coved their naked bodies with leaves because they were naked. Duh!
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 2:08:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 1:27:45 PM, Gentorev wrote:
At 10/5/2017 12:28:44 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 10/5/2017 7:16:35 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 10/4/2017 8:20:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/4/2017 2:23:52 PM, Harikrish wrote:
We know Adam did not die after eating the fruit as God promised. He went on to live to 930 years. So God lied, Adam did not die the day he ate the fruit as God had warned.

If we are accurate, God said:

and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17

The meaning is, if they eat, with death they shall die. And so, it happened, after they ate, they were expelled to this first death that some call life. By what the Bible tells, this is not actually life, but the first death, and with this death people shall die. Every moment all people die slowly in this "life". All of your sells are dying, but you don"t die instantly, because there is born new cells constantly till some point.

This is why Jesus says:

Verily, verily, I say to you--He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.
John 5:24

So, this is not real life. :)

And later this first death will be cast into the fire lake:

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

Genesis 2: 17; KJV; "But of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The meaning is, in the day he ate of it, in that day he would die.

From the book of Jubilees 29-31; "Thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation, and he 30 was the first to be buried in the earth. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

Adam died at the age of 930, 70 years before the close of the day in which he ate of the forbidden fruit.

Colossians 2: 16-17; "Let no man therefore judge you, in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holiday, or of the New Moon or of the Sabbath day: which are but the shadow of things to come in the future, etc.

The weekly Sabbath was but a shadow of the great Sabbath of one thousand years of peace under the rule of 'The Son of Man' from his throne in Jerusalem.

Adam died in the first day or first period of one thousand year of this age of man, the seventh day is the great Sabbath, the day of the Lord, in which he will judge the whole world with justice for tat seventh period of one thousand years.

Jonah lived 3 days in the belly of the fish. This were three 24 hour days.


Correct!


Jesus said destroy this Temple and he will raise it in 3 days. Those were three 24 hour days.


No! Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority, but only that which the Lord who had filled him with his spirit commanded him to say.

The Lord who filled the man Jesus with his spirit on the day of his baptism, which was the day that he born of the spirit, and was chosen as the heir and successor of the Lord, when the heavenly voice was heard to say, 'You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

The Lord, who said through his obedient servant that he had filled with his spirit; " destroy this Temple and in 3 days, I [the Lord] will raise it up.

Jesus did not raise his own body from death, it was the Lord, whose earthly temple, 'the man Jesus,' that he had filled with his spirit, who raised that Temple.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 30-31; For HE has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

Try to stay relevant.
John 2:Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

20 They replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21 But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said.

It was even compared to Jonah three 24 hour days in the belly of the fish.
Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. - Bible Hub

So a day is 24 hours according to Jesus. He should know, he help create the world.

Adams life was prolonged after eating the fruit which went against God's warning he would certainly die when he ate it.


Wrong! "On the day that ye eat thereof, on that day will you die, and Adam died 930 years after he, the glorious heavenly simulacrum, had been expelled from heaven and clothed with animal skin, nerves bone and muscles, 70 years before the close of the first day of one thousand years.

So Adam dud not die according to God's warning: "On the day that ye eat thereof, on that day will you die, "
By your own account Adam died 930 years later and not "On the day that ye eat thereof, on that day will you die, " God is proven to be a liar.

Genesis 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die." - Bible Hub


Wrong! "Of the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil thou shalt not eat, for on the day that thou eat thereof, on that day you will die."

By your own account Adam died 930 years later and not "On the day that ye eat thereof, on that day will you die, " God is proven to be a liar.

Most Christians don't know about the 24 hour day because they think it is different each day.


How long is a day? The day of the Lord is a thousand years. The days and nights of Brahma are called Manvantara, or the cycle of manifestation, "The Great Day," which is a period of universal activity, that is preceded, and also followed by "Pralaya," a dark period,

Most Christians don't know about the 24 hour day because they think it is different each day.

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Now ask a Christian if it was 7 days as in 24 hour day, or 7 thousand years as in God years, or 7 million years as in Christian stupid math or 7 billion years as in Christian advanced math?

Most Christians don't know about the 24 hour day because they think it is different each day.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.
Yongy
Posts: 1,734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 2:27:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

They are a mythical couple, who put two fingers up to a mythical god, good for them!
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 2:28:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:27:20 PM, Yongy wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

They are a mythical couple, who put two fingers up to a mythical god, good for them!

Would you like to discuss something?
PureX
Posts: 4,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 2:36:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

And the story is mythical, meaning that it used symbolism, allegory, metaphor, and other dorms of literary artifice to convey a complex ideological message. In this case a message about the nature of the human spirit, and how it makes us our own worst enemy.

The mythical story of Adam and Eve is about why we suffer and enslave ourselves to the material world, needlessly, through our own blinding hubris. And how that hubris becomes the source of all 'evil' within us, and within the world around us, as viewed through our own arrogance and delusion.

Understood properly, it's quite the story, and has much insight to share with all of us, whether we believe in gods or not.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 2:43:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:36:03 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

And the story is mythical, meaning that it used symbolism, allegory, metaphor, and other dorms of literary artifice to convey a complex ideological message. In this case a message about the nature of the human spirit, and how it makes us our own worst enemy.


I can go along with that. I would not limit this to the nature of the human spirit, as this addresses the nature of the flesh, carnality....as OPOOSED to the spirit.

The mythical story of Adam and Eve is about why we suffer and enslave ourselves to the material world, needlessly, through our own blinding hubris. And how that hubris becomes the source of all 'evil' within us, and within the world around us, as viewed through our own arrogance and delusion.


I could go along with some of that.

Understood properly, it's quite the story, and has much insight to share with all of us, whether we believe in gods or not.

I know what you believe and I will never harmonize with there being no God. The Creator exists.....literally, not symbolically. While I can agree that the account or story of Adam and Eve is an archetype of Mankind, that doe not negate the Creator at all, quite the contrary as the account is also revealing creation....as in literally not metaphorically.
Yongy
Posts: 1,734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 3:08:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:43:00 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:36:03 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

And the story is mythical, meaning that it used symbolism, allegory, metaphor, and other dorms of literary artifice to convey a complex ideological message. In this case a message about the nature of the human spirit, and how it makes us our own worst enemy.


I can go along with that. I would not limit this to the nature of the human spirit, as this addresses the nature of the flesh, carnality....as OPOOSED to the spirit.

The mythical story of Adam and Eve is about why we suffer and enslave ourselves to the material world, needlessly, through our own blinding hubris. And how that hubris becomes the source of all 'evil' within us, and within the world around us, as viewed through our own arrogance and delusion.


I could go along with some of that.

Understood properly, it's quite the story, and has much insight to share with all of us, whether we believe in gods or not.

I know what you believe and I will never harmonize with there being no God. The Creator exists.....literally, not symbolically. While I can agree that the account or story of Adam and Eve is an archetype of Mankind, that doe not negate the Creator at all, quite the contrary as the account is also revealing creation....as in literally not metaphorically.

You believe all that to be true, but it is only a belief, you cannot produce any verifiable proof it is so.
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 3:09:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

Actually from Genesis and Adam and Eve's eternal curse placed on them by God for a single act of disobedience the eating of a certain fruit we learn more about God and his bumbling genocidal ways.

It gets worse as we hear more about what God is thinking.

Genesis 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created--and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground--for I regret that I have made them."

God promises even more genocide.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

So the concept of spiritual death and original sin is absurd. God is the perpetrator of genocide and evil. God promises repeatedly to wipe out the human race physically by laying the earth desolate.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 3:13:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 3:08:29 PM, Yongy wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:43:00 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:36:03 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

And the story is mythical, meaning that it used symbolism, allegory, metaphor, and other dorms of literary artifice to convey a complex ideological message. In this case a message about the nature of the human spirit, and how it makes us our own worst enemy.


I can go along with that. I would not limit this to the nature of the human spirit, as this addresses the nature of the flesh, carnality....as OPOOSED to the spirit.

The mythical story of Adam and Eve is about why we suffer and enslave ourselves to the material world, needlessly, through our own blinding hubris. And how that hubris becomes the source of all 'evil' within us, and within the world around us, as viewed through our own arrogance and delusion.


I could go along with some of that.

Understood properly, it's quite the story, and has much insight to share with all of us, whether we believe in gods or not.

I know what you believe and I will never harmonize with there being no God. The Creator exists.....literally, not symbolically. While I can agree that the account or story of Adam and Eve is an archetype of Mankind, that doe not negate the Creator at all, quite the contrary as the account is also revealing creation....as in literally not metaphorically.

You believe all that to be true, but it is only a belief, you cannot produce any verifiable proof it is so.

You need to start asking and not telling me of what I believe or have experienced. Start by asking or adding some form of content to what I write.
Beliefs are irrelevant to spirituality, it's applying and reaping the harvest thereof.
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 3:20:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

The Bible is an invention of the Jewish people. The characters in the bible the Patriachs are all Jewish including Jesus, the disciples, the authors and the Jewish God of the bible. The bible us the history if the Jewish people and their struggles with their Jewish God who is potrayed by them as a bumbling genocidal maniac. Jesus the son of God is potrayed as a deluded incoherent blasphemous liar and a lunatic.

So why has the Bible a book of Alternat Facts fascinated the Western World and kept alive by 2 billion Christians especially when the Bible did not serve the Jews well. The Bible was written to preserve the Jewish memory of their history reconstructed on Alternate Facts, ? The bible concluded in the demise of the Jewish people, their messiah was crucified by the Romans, Jerusalem destroyed along with their temple followed by 2000 years of persecution and expulsions. It also left a sliver of hope that God would someday restore the Jewish nation to its everlasting glory. But how does that comport with the Christians who see their own salvation and future buried in the same Jewish narrative? ........Harikrish.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 4:03:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:43:00 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:36:03 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

And the story is mythical, meaning that it used symbolism, allegory, metaphor, and other dorms of literary artifice to convey a complex ideological message. In this case a message about the nature of the human spirit, and how it makes us our own worst enemy.

I can go along with that. I would not limit this to the nature of the human spirit, as this addresses the nature of the flesh, carnality....as OPPOSED to the spirit.

The original sin of Adam and Eve was not "carnality", it was hubris. It was their presuming that they could take from God that which was forbidden them, and that in doing so they would become God's equals. Thus, they took it into their hearts and minds that they possessed the knowledge of good and evil, and could therefor judge all creation, including themselves and each other, as if they were gods.

But of course they did not possess the knowledge of good and evil. All they possessed was their own desire that all creation should serve them, exclusively. Which it does not. And so they deemed creation 'insufficient', and spent the rest of their days toiling to "correct it" according to their own desires. Trying to force the world to give them what they wanted from it. And humanity has been doing that ever since. Both presuming ourselves to be God's equals, and condemning all creation for not serving us, exclusively, according to our own desires.

Our "carnality" only became an issue as we substituted it for our lack of knowledge of good and evil. What is deemed "good" is what is good for me and mine. And what is deemed "evil" is only deemed so when it harms me or mine. This is the "original sin" from which all our other sins, spring.

The mythical story of Adam and Eve is about why we suffer and enslave ourselves to the material world, needlessly, through our own blinding hubris. And how that hubris becomes the source of all 'evil' within us, and within the world around us, as viewed through our own arrogance and delusion.

I could go along with some of that.

Understood properly, it's quite the story, and has much insight to share with all of us, whether we believe in gods or not.

I know what you believe and I will never harmonize with there being no God.

I am not an atheist. I am an agnostic theist.

The Creator exists.....literally, not symbolically. While I can agree that the account or story of Adam and Eve is an archetype of Mankind, that doe not negate the Creator at all, quite the contrary as the account is also revealing creation....as in literally not metaphorically.
Yongy
Posts: 1,734
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 4:14:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 3:13:36 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 10/5/2017 3:08:29 PM, Yongy wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:43:00 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:36:03 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

And the story is mythical, meaning that it used symbolism, allegory, metaphor, and other dorms of literary artifice to convey a complex ideological message. In this case a message about the nature of the human spirit, and how it makes us our own worst enemy.


I can go along with that. I would not limit this to the nature of the human spirit, as this addresses the nature of the flesh, carnality....as OPOOSED to the spirit.

The mythical story of Adam and Eve is about why we suffer and enslave ourselves to the material world, needlessly, through our own blinding hubris. And how that hubris becomes the source of all 'evil' within us, and within the world around us, as viewed through our own arrogance and delusion.


I could go along with some of that.

Understood properly, it's quite the story, and has much insight to share with all of us, whether we believe in gods or not.

I know what you believe and I will never harmonize with there being no God. The Creator exists.....literally, not symbolically. While I can agree that the account or story of Adam and Eve is an archetype of Mankind, that doe not negate the Creator at all, quite the contrary as the account is also revealing creation....as in literally not metaphorically.

You believe all that to be true, but it is only a belief, you cannot produce any verifiable proof it is so.

You need to start asking and not telling me of what I believe or have experienced. Start by asking or adding some form of content to what I write.
Beliefs are irrelevant to spirituality, it's applying and reaping the harvest thereof.

I was replying to your post. I am willing to bet that anything you say you have experienced is nothing like the weird stuff I have experienced since I was born in 1950. However, if you want to list your experiences go ahead.
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 4:43:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 2:43:00 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:36:03 PM, PureX wrote:
At 10/5/2017 2:23:27 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Adam and Eve are representative of Mankind, once that is established you have all the answers, you have all the pieces.

And the story is mythical, meaning that it used symbolism, allegory, metaphor, and other dorms of literary artifice to convey a complex ideological message. In this case a message about the nature of the human spirit, and how it makes us our own worst enemy.


I can go along with that. I would not limit this to the nature of the human spirit, as this addresses the nature of the flesh, carnality....as OPOOSED to the spirit.

The mythical story of Adam and Eve is about why we suffer and enslave ourselves to the material world, needlessly, through our own blinding hubris. And how that hubris becomes the source of all 'evil' within us, and within the world around us, as viewed through our own arrogance and delusion.


I could go along with some of that.

Understood properly, it's quite the story, and has much insight to share with all of us, whether we believe in gods or not.

I know what you believe and I will never harmonize with there being no God. The Creator exists.....literally, not symbolically. While I can agree that the account or story of Adam and Eve is an archetype of Mankind, that doe not negate the Creator at all, quite the contrary as the account is also revealing creation....as in literally not metaphorically.

Adam and Eve are poor examples of humanity. They got their knowledge from eating a forbidden fruit. Explains why the fruit section in grocery stores are packed with women and dumb men.
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 5:12:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Just because a person falls sick once, doesn't mean the person is physically dead. To be dead all physiological functions stop, breathing, heartbeat etc. Similarly just because Adam and Eve disobeyed God once that didn't kill them spiritually. They still worshipped God and continued to obey his command to multiply and increase their number. They even taught their children to worship God and make sacrificial offerings.

So Adam and Eve did not die physically or spiritually. They fulfilled their purpose by multiplying their number and paying homage to God.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 6:40:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 7:16:35 AM, Gentorev wrote:
The meaning is, in the day he ate of it, in that day he would die.

I think you have good point in the meaning of a day, but in the more accurate translation it says "dying thou dost die", which means that with death he shall die. And this "life" is actually the first death.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 6:41:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2017 8:41:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
God says on day you eat the fruit you will certainly die. Adam did not die after eating the fruit. Had went on to live to 930 years. The fruit actually prolonged his life.

The more accurate translation says "dying thou dost die". He lost his life and was expelled to this death.
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2017 7:29:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/5/2017 6:41:27 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 10/4/2017 8:41:48 PM, Harikrish wrote:
God says on day you eat the fruit you will certainly die. Adam did not die after eating the fruit. Had went on to live to 930 years. The fruit actually prolonged his life.

The more accurate translation says "dying thou dost die". He lost his life and was expelled to this death.

But Adam and Eve did not die after eating the fruit. They went on to live over 900 years. The fruit actually prolonged their lives by today's standards.
God even knew they were not going to die , so he made clothes from animal fur to cover their naked bodies.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.