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fundamentalists should have supported stoning

linate
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12/29/2017 2:58:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
if you are similar or are a fundamentalist christian now, but you happened to be born in the old testament days, you should have supported people getting stoned. (not on marijuana either, lolz)

the bible says at least many of the killings in the old testament were dictated by God.

Most people just say they would not stone anyone, nor support it, as if that is the proper response. Then they are unable to articulate why. If you follow the bible though as God's word, as most of these people do, doesn't that mean you would be compelled to stone exectute and/or support it?

'Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don"t wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and mother"[a] and "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."'

'Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)'

almost every 10 commandment has a following death punishment later in the bible. most people dont realize that.

here is another death sentence example.
Leviticus 20:13 "'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."
linate
Posts: 1,137
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12/29/2017 3:10:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
i think ive just concluded that the bible isn't the word of God by the way. at first i was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that it is, despite all the twisted things in there, but if it's coming out and saying you have to be killed for gathering sticks on sunday or being disrespectful to your parents, i think that sounds like it's not truly from God.
i'm still down with the bible being "profitable" as is all it claims to be any way.
missmedic
Posts: 764
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12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 2,625
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12/29/2017 3:47:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:10:49 PM, linate wrote:
i think ive just concluded that the bible isn't the word of God by the way. at first i was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that it is, despite all the twisted things in there, but if it's coming out and saying you have to be killed for gathering sticks on sunday or being disrespectful to your parents, i think that sounds like it's not truly from God.

I agree, and I admit that such directives seem barbaric when I first read these.

However it's important to try and decouple our own personal attitudes when reading this, we have no idea what God's objective was when he commanded this, there is no moral correct way if we simply make up our own rules for society.

Look at the world today, this is how humans behave when left to their own devices so who are we to judge God?

If you knew you'd be executed for cursing your parents then why would you do it? surely not cursing one's parents is rather easy?

Perhaps this is one way God can show us today that even under threat of death humans disregard God, they are unwilling to listen to God even under these circumstances.

i'm still down with the bible being "profitable" as is all it claims to be any way.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 2,625
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12/29/2017 3:51:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

This seems to be true - Christ was the "Word" made flesh and created all things.

However Christ also revealed "Jesus therefore answered them, and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me." John 7:16.
Polytheist_Witch
Posts: 4,423
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12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
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12/29/2017 3:53:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 2:58:07 PM, linate wrote:
if you are similar or are a fundamentalist christian now, but you happened to be born in the old testament days, you should have supported people getting stoned. (not on marijuana either, lolz)

the bible says at least many of the killings in the old testament were dictated by God.

Most people just say they would not stone anyone, nor support it, as if that is the proper response. Then they are unable to articulate why. If you follow the bible though as God's word, as most of these people do, doesn't that mean you would be compelled to stone exectute and/or support it?

'Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don"t wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and mother"[a] and "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."'

'Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)'

almost every 10 commandment has a following death punishment later in the bible. most people dont realize that.

here is another death sentence example.
Leviticus 20:13 "'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Praise the Lord for the new covenant of Grace...

just wondering how many Christians have you seen being stoned lately????
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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12/29/2017 4:40:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Jesus was a Jew preaching to other Jews. And Jews then and now do not preach or believe that non-Jews should become Jewish, or follow Jewish religious laws. So it really does not matter what Jesus said to the Jews of his day about keeping the old laws. He was not talking to us. What matters is the revelation of the Divine Spirit within us, and the promise of salvation given to us if we choose to embody it. As that was Jesus' message to us all.

If you are a Christian, and you're wasting your time and energy sputtering and arguing over ancient Jewish religious stories, and social customs, and the sins of others, you've lost sight of the revelation of Christ, and you need to repent, yourself.
ethang5
Posts: 22,646
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12/29/2017 5:12:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 2:58:07 PM, linate wrote:

if you are similar or are a fundamentalist christian now, but you happened to be born in the old testament days, you should have supported people getting stoned. (not on marijuana either, lolz)

the bible says at least many of the killings in the old testament were dictated by God.

Most people just say they would not stone anyone, nor support it, as if that is the proper response. Then they are unable to articulate why. If you follow the bible though as God's word, as most of these people do, doesn't that mean you would be compelled to stone exectute and/or support it?

'Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don"t wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and mother"[a] and "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."'

'Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)'

almost every 10 commandment has a following death punishment later in the bible. most people dont realize that.

here is another death sentence example.
Leviticus 20:13 "'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Questions linate. Should a person be imprisoned for putting their porch lights on at night?

What should be the penalty for falsely yelling "thief!" At someone walking down a crowded street?

What do you think?
linate
Posts: 1,137
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12/29/2017 5:21:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
falsely claiming someone is a theif should required a punishment that is not excessive given it could be worse.

i can see many crimes do require a punishment which i suppose is your point. but putting someone to death just for gathering sticks on sunday is going too far, for example.

i know the common line is "who are we to judge God" and "God can do anything", but it seems like the better way to approach it is to question whether all that came from God in the first place.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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12/29/2017 5:24:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 2:58:07 PM, linate wrote:
if you are similar or are a fundamentalist christian now, but you happened to be born in the old testament days, you should have supported people getting stoned. (not on marijuana either, lolz)

the bible says at least many of the killings in the old testament were dictated by God.

Most people just say they would not stone anyone, nor support it, as if that is the proper response. Then they are unable to articulate why. If you follow the bible though as God's word, as most of these people do, doesn't that mean you would be compelled to stone exectute and/or support it?

'Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don"t wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and mother"[a] and "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."'

'Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)'

almost every 10 commandment has a following death punishment later in the bible. most people dont realize that.

here is another death sentence example.
Leviticus 20:13 "'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

No one should support stoning. What fundamentalists should do is regard parts of the bible that are immoral amoral or contradictory as necessarily incorrect and see what is left.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Goldtop
Posts: 6,992
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12/29/2017 5:26:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 5:12:12 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/29/2017 2:58:07 PM, linate wrote:

if you are similar or are a fundamentalist christian now, but you happened to be born in the old testament days, you should have supported people getting stoned. (not on marijuana either, lolz)

the bible says at least many of the killings in the old testament were dictated by God.

Most people just say they would not stone anyone, nor support it, as if that is the proper response. Then they are unable to articulate why. If you follow the bible though as God's word, as most of these people do, doesn't that mean you would be compelled to stone exectute and/or support it?

'Matthew 15
Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don"t wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, "Honor your father and mother"[a] and "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death."'

'Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)'

almost every 10 commandment has a following death punishment later in the bible. most people dont realize that.

here is another death sentence example.
Leviticus 20:13 "'If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them."

Questions linate. Should a person be imprisoned for putting their porch lights on at night?

What should be the penalty for falsely yelling "thief!" At someone walking down a crowded street?

What do you think?

Could you please provide the verses in the Bible for those?
Goldtop
Posts: 6,992
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12/29/2017 5:28:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

Old Testament = Gods word
New Testament = Gods word
Quran = Gods word

Are you seeing a pattern here yet?
ethang5
Posts: 22,646
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12/29/2017 5:44:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 5:21:59 PM, linate wrote:
falsely claiming someone is a theif should required a punishment that is not excessive given it could be worse.

i can see many crimes do require a punishment which i suppose is your point. but putting someone to death just for gathering sticks on sunday is going too far, for example.

i know the common line is "who are we to judge God" and "God can do anything", but it seems like the better way to approach it is to question whether all that came from God in the first place.

We debate one post at a time. Can't be helped. Don't go too far too early.

In 1944, it was illegal to turn on your porch lights at night because that made it easier for German bombers to find the city. It could mean the violent death of hundreds. The penalty was imprisonment.

Not knowing this, imprisonment for turning on a porch light seems unfair and harsh.

In many developing countries, yelling out "thief!" at a person in the street will get him killed through mob justice. Should the penalty for doing so be the same in New York where no one would get killed, as in the Congo where the person would almost certainly be killed?

Not knowing this, a death sentence for someone who falsely yelled "thief!" Would seem harsh and ungodly to you.

What is it you don't know about the examples you cited? Is it possible there is something you've missed?

Would it be fair to tell Britons that they should go around imprisining people today for turning on their porch lights?

Or tell Congolese in New York they must sentence people to death for falsely yelling out, "thief!"?

Why not?
missmedic
Posts: 764
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12/29/2017 7:10:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.

You don't make sense, that's ok.....................
linate
Posts: 1,137
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12/30/2017 1:15:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
i should have been more focused on this in the OP. the main point of the thread isn't so much whether stoning people is or isn't all that moral, it's whether a person who's a fundamentalist today had they lived back in OTestament days should have been able to say stoning was wrong and not condone it. i think from my informal asking that most fundamentalists wouldnt' engage or condone in stoning, but sometimes i see someone who does in fact take the bible so completely without error that they too would stone or condone it back in those days. while i stronly disagree with their outlook, at least they are being consistent.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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12/30/2017 4:05:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 5:44:41 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/29/2017 5:21:59 PM, linate wrote:
falsely claiming someone is a theif should required a punishment that is not excessive given it could be worse.

i can see many crimes do require a punishment which i suppose is your point. but putting someone to death just for gathering sticks on sunday is going too far, for example.

i know the common line is "who are we to judge God" and "God can do anything", but it seems like the better way to approach it is to question whether all that came from God in the first place.

We debate one post at a time. Can't be helped. Don't go too far too early.

In 1944, it was illegal to turn on your porch lights at night because that made it easier for German bombers to find the city. It could mean the violent death of hundreds. The penalty was imprisonment.

Not knowing this, imprisonment for turning on a porch light seems unfair and harsh.

In many developing countries, yelling out "thief!" at a person in the street will get him killed through mob justice. Should the penalty for doing so be the same in New York where no one would get killed, as in the Congo where the person would almost certainly be killed?

Not knowing this, a death sentence for someone who falsely yelled "thief!" Would seem harsh and ungodly to you.

What is it you don't know about the examples you cited? Is it possible there is something you've missed?

Would it be fair to tell Britons that they should go around imprisining people today for turning on their porch lights?

Or tell Congolese in New York they must sentence people to death for falsely yelling out, "thief!"?

Why not?

I regard this as an excellent argument for subjective morality over objective morality. Maybe I ask however does that mean that the "objective" morality presented in the bible is outdated or if it is still, taken as a whole useful in determining moralistic judgements?
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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12/30/2017 4:35:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 1:15:57 PM, linate wrote:
i should have been more focused on this in the OP. the main point of the thread isn't so much whether stoning people is or isn't all that moral, it's whether a person who's a fundamentalist today had they lived back in OTestament days should have been able to say stoning was wrong and not condone it. i think from my informal asking that most fundamentalists wouldnt' engage or condone in stoning, but sometimes i see someone who does in fact take the bible so completely without error that they too would stone or condone it back in those days. while i stronly disagree with their outlook, at least they are being consistent.

My oppinion for what it is worth is that some things have always been immoral acts. Before the civil war slavery was still wrong. Before the civil rights movement oppressing women and people of African descent was still wrong. Some interpretation of morality is always nescesary but the moral course is the one which causes the least harm while providing the best possible health and happiness for society as a whole. It is hard to imagine a situation in which a brutal execution is morally preferable to as humane an execution as can be devised, if indeed an execution is called for at all. So the act of stoning people to death is unnecessarily brutal, even beheading or stabbing is a quicker, and therefore morally preferable. Also I disagree strongly that execution is a just or nescesary punishment for most of the transgressions it is prescribed for in the bible.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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12/30/2017 4:54:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 5:44:41 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/29/2017 5:21:59 PM, linate wrote:
falsely claiming someone is a theif should required a punishment that is not excessive given it could be worse.

i can see many crimes do require a punishment which i suppose is your point. but putting someone to death just for gathering sticks on sunday is going too far, for example.

i know the common line is "who are we to judge God" and "God can do anything", but it seems like the better way to approach it is to question whether all that came from God in the first place.

We debate one post at a time. Can't be helped. Don't go too far too early.
No, you don't. This is just another attempted thang derail.
<snipped as derail>
ethang5
Posts: 22,646
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12/30/2017 7:55:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 1:15:57 PM, linate wrote:
i should have been more focused on this in the OP. the main point of the thread isn't so much whether stoning people is or isn't all that moral, it's whether a person who's a fundamentalist today had they lived back in OTestament days should have been able to say stoning was wrong and not condone it. i think from my informal asking that most fundamentalists wouldnt' engage or condone in stoning, but sometimes i see someone who does in fact take the bible so completely without error that they too would stone or condone it back in those days. while i stronly disagree with their outlook, at least they are being consistent.

This is a debate site. If you are so convinced that your position is right, why post it for debate? Or are you posting it for approval only?

Why is stoning wrong? You simply assume you are right. Is it wrong in every situation? You don't say. You simply assume you are right. Can specific conditions change what punishment is valid? You don't say. You simply assume you are right.

Next time, mark your post as only for applause, and those of us who want to debate will pass it by.
SecularMerlin
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12/30/2017 8:35:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 7:55:15 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 12/30/2017 1:15:57 PM, linate wrote:
i should have been more focused on this in the OP. the main point of the thread isn't so much whether stoning people is or isn't all that moral, it's whether a person who's a fundamentalist today had they lived back in OTestament days should have been able to say stoning was wrong and not condone it. i think from my informal asking that most fundamentalists wouldnt' engage or condone in stoning, but sometimes i see someone who does in fact take the bible so completely without error that they too would stone or condone it back in those days. while i stronly disagree with their outlook, at least they are being consistent.

This is a debate site. If you are so convinced that your position is right, why post it for debate? Or are you posting it for approval only?

Why is stoning wrong? You simply assume you are right. Is it wrong in every situation? You don't say. You simply assume you are right. Can specific conditions change what punishment is valid? You don't say. You simply assume you are right.

Next time, mark your post as only for applause, and those of us who want to debate will pass it by.

My conclusion, and I'm not sure limate agrees, is that if execution is waranted, which is a debate of its own, then the more humane a method and the less needlessly cruelty you indulge in the better in general moralisticaly speaking.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
WoeJ
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12/30/2017 8:55:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:47:12 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:10:49 PM, linate wrote:
i think ive just concluded that the bible isn't the word of God by the way. at first i was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that it is, despite all the twisted things in there, but if it's coming out and saying you have to be killed for gathering sticks on sunday or being disrespectful to your parents, i think that sounds like it's not truly from God.

I agree, and I admit that such directives seem barbaric when I first read these.

However it's important to try and decouple our own personal attitudes when reading this, we have no idea what God's objective was when he commanded this, there is no moral correct way if we simply make up our own rules for society.

God doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. Morality is something that is demonstrated.


Look at the world today, this is how humans behave when left to their own devices so who are we to judge God?

If you knew you'd be executed for cursing your parents then why would you do it? surely not cursing one's parents is rather easy?

Perhaps this is one way God can show us today that even under threat of death humans disregard God, they are unwilling to listen to God even under these circumstances.

i'm still down with the bible being "profitable" as is all it claims to be any way.
WoeJ
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12/30/2017 8:59:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.

I grew up a Southern Baptist, and one of the hardest things to purge myself of was the notion that Judaism is just Christianity without Christ. Christians view Christianity as a sequel, when they are really part reboot and part retconn.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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12/30/2017 9:26:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 8:59:52 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.


I grew up a Southern Baptist, and one of the hardest things to purge myself of was the notion that Judaism is just Christianity without Christ. Christians view Christianity as a sequel, when they are really part reboot and part retconn.

Like the new star trek or like rogue one?
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
WoeJ
Posts: 1,339
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12/30/2017 9:29:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 9:26:44 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 8:59:52 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.


I grew up a Southern Baptist, and one of the hardest things to purge myself of was the notion that Judaism is just Christianity without Christ. Christians view Christianity as a sequel, when they are really part reboot and part retconn.

Like the new star trek or like rogue one?

I was thinking more like Highlander II. They should have been only one!
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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12/30/2017 9:37:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 9:29:04 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:26:44 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 8:59:52 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.


I grew up a Southern Baptist, and one of the hardest things to purge myself of was the notion that Judaism is just Christianity without Christ. Christians view Christianity as a sequel, when they are really part reboot and part retconn.

Like the new star trek or like rogue one?

I was thinking more like Highlander II. They should have been only one!

Wow harsh. I consider that the prom night dumpster baby of sequels.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
WoeJ
Posts: 1,339
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12/30/2017 9:40:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 9:37:55 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:29:04 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:26:44 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 8:59:52 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.


I grew up a Southern Baptist, and one of the hardest things to purge myself of was the notion that Judaism is just Christianity without Christ. Christians view Christianity as a sequel, when they are really part reboot and part retconn.

Like the new star trek or like rogue one?

I was thinking more like Highlander II. They should have been only one!

Wow harsh. I consider that the prom night dumpster baby of sequels.

Oh, my. "prom night dumpster baby" I am so going to get in trouble for using that. Gee, thanks!
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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12/30/2017 10:18:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 9:40:35 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:37:55 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:29:04 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:26:44 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 8:59:52 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.


I grew up a Southern Baptist, and one of the hardest things to purge myself of was the notion that Judaism is just Christianity without Christ. Christians view Christianity as a sequel, when they are really part reboot and part retconn.

Like the new star trek or like rogue one?

I was thinking more like Highlander II. They should have been only one!

Wow harsh. I consider that the prom night dumpster baby of sequels.

Oh, my. "prom night dumpster baby" I am so going to get in trouble for using that. Gee, thanks!

But seriously you do get the philosophical point in using those two movies (new star trek vs. rogue one) right?
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
WoeJ
Posts: 1,339
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12/30/2017 10:27:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/30/2017 10:18:05 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:40:35 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:37:55 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:29:04 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/30/2017 9:26:44 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 12/30/2017 8:59:52 PM, WoeJ wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:52:32 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:44:21 PM, missmedic wrote:
At 12/29/2017 3:27:55 PM, Polytheist_Witch wrote:
OLD Testament = Jewish law
NEW Testament = Jesus
Not rocket science.

I would like to apologise as I am forced to quote the bible..................
There are numerous reasons the "But It"s Just the Old Testament!" Defense doesn"t do the trick:
1) There is no explicit or categorical textual proof from the New Testament that supports the idea that the Old Testament (or the Law) "doesn"t count". For every verse cited to prove such a claim, there is another that can be cited for the opposite view. In fact, it seems that the textual proof for the opposite view is greater, even overwhelming. For example, Jesus says in the Gospels:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
And Jesus also said:
Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for one dot of the Law to become void.
There are other verses that similarly seem to affirm the importance of keeping the Law. On the other hand, the evidences used to counter this view are less explicit and less direct.
2) Both the Old and New Testament are considered by all mainstream branches of Christianity to be "just as inspired as the New Testament." The New Testament itself affirms the accuracy of the Old Testament:
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Christians see Jesus as God. That means that he was also the God of the Old Testament. The same God who commanded all those killings and the author of all those violent and disgusting commands as listed in the bible. So the violence Jesus supports and predicts is not only evident in the New Testament, but he is supposedly also the author of said violent commands in the Old testament as well. Not only then is the Old Testament "an expression of the will of Christ""it is Christ.

Christians are not Jews. Get over it.


I grew up a Southern Baptist, and one of the hardest things to purge myself of was the notion that Judaism is just Christianity without Christ. Christians view Christianity as a sequel, when they are really part reboot and part retconn.

Like the new star trek or like rogue one?

I was thinking more like Highlander II. They should have been only one!

Wow harsh. I consider that the prom night dumpster baby of sequels.

Oh, my. "prom night dumpster baby" I am so going to get in trouble for using that. Gee, thanks!

But seriously you do get the philosophical point in using those two movies (new star trek vs. rogue one) right?

I thought I did. But maybe not. Tell me.

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