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W as the universe created?

janesix
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5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.
Goldtop
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5/30/2018 7:56:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed.

Yet, ALL of the evidence shows the universe had a beginning. It's what happened prior to that scientists are trying to find out.

You can't get something from nothing.You can't create or destroy energy.

That only applies to what happened after the Big Bang, not before.

Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

Wrong conclusion based on false premises.
janesix
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5/30/2018 8:10:06 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:56:57 PM, Goldtop wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed.

Yet, ALL of the evidence shows the universe had a beginning. It's what happened prior to that scientists are trying to find out.

No it doesnt.the big bang universe has to be patched up every few years when the facts don't fit, with inflation and dark matter and dark energy
You can't get something from nothing.You can't create or destroy energy.

That only applies to what happened after the Big Bang, not before.

So there were no laws of physics before your big bang? How convenient
Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

Wrong conclusion based on false premises.
Goldtop
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5/30/2018 8:13:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 8:10:06 PM, janesix wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:56:57 PM, Goldtop wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed.

Yet, ALL of the evidence shows the universe had a beginning. It's what happened prior to that scientists are trying to find out.

No it doesnt.

Yeah, it does.

the big bang universe has to be patched up every few years when the facts don't fit, with inflation and dark matter and dark energy

I doesn't appear you know what you're talking about. Dark matter and energy have nothing to do with the origins of the universe and inflation is still valid.

You can't get something from nothing.You can't create or destroy energy.

That only applies to what happened after the Big Bang, not before.

So there were no laws of physics before your big bang?

The laws of nature are a result of the Big Bang, this is all based on high energy physics, the kind of stuff scientists play with in places like CERN.

How convenient

Simple physics based on the evidence.

Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

Wrong conclusion based on false premises.
Casten
Posts: 2,510
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5/31/2018 1:40:09 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
"What happened before time began?" is a question that kind of gives me a headache.
You'll always find me here: https://www.debateart.com...
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/31/2018 1:46:35 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

It is beyond the scope of the big bang theory to determine what if anything existed or happened before the expansion event. We do however know that the universe once existed in an increasingly hot dense state which expanded and continues to expand at immense speeds. That this energy may have always existed does not actually effect the big bang theory in any way. Regardless of how the universe came to be in that hot dense state is beyond our current cosmological model to explain.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Gentorev
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5/31/2018 7:52:03 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 1:46:35 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

It is beyond the scope of the big bang theory to determine what if anything existed or happened before the expansion event. We do however know that the universe once existed in an increasingly hot dense state which expanded and continues to expand at immense speeds. That this energy may have always existed does not actually effect the big bang theory in any way. Regardless of how the universe came to be in that hot dense state is beyond our current cosmological model to explain.


If the universe continues to expand at immense speeds, how is it that we, the Milky Way Galaxy are on a collision course with the galaxy Andromeda?

How could the atoms have been formed from the photons/wave particles, which are not particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, if the photons, the quantum of the electromagnetic energy from which this universe was created were continually expanding away from each other?

How could the first hydrogen atoms be gathered together in the creation of the first massive generation hydrogen stars, if those atoms were continually expanding away from each other?

How could the galaxies, which were created from those first massive nuclear reactors, have begun to clump together, in the galactic clusters that are now speeding toward that which our scientists call, the Great Attractor, if they were continually expanding away from each other?

Here you go! I Googled this up for you.

The Great Attractor: what is this thing?

The smallest unit of galaxies out there is our local group, comprising the Milky Way, the Andromeda galaxy and about 50 others. The Local Group is in turn part of the Virgo Supercluster containing some 40,000 members. Beyond all this is an unseen object called the Great Attractor which is pulling the Milky Way and all else towards it at the terrific speed of 14 million mph. What is this thing, how far away is it, and what will happen when we reach it? No one knows.

Detailed observations of the galaxies around us indicate that there is superposed on the Hubble flow a large-scale streaming motion of about 600 km/s in the general direction of the constellation Centaurus.

This mass migration includes the Local Group, the Virgo Cluster, the Hydra--Centaurus Supercluster, and other groups and clusters for a distance of at least 60 Mpc up and downstream from us. It is as if a great river of galaxies (including our own) is flowing with a swift current of 600 km/s toward Centaurus.

Calculations indicate that ~1016 solar masses concentrated 65 Mpc away in the direction of Centaurus would account for this. This mass concentration has been dubbed the Great Attractor. Detailed investigation of that region of the galaxy cluster Abell 3627) finds 10 times too little visible matter to account for this flow, again implying a dominant gravitational role for unseen or dark matter. Thus, the Great Attractor is certainly there (because we see its gravitational influence), but the major portion of the mass that must be there cannot be seen in our telescopes.

Enoch, the only man recorded in the Scriptures to have been carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation, and who was anointed as his successor, was then escorted to the ends of time, where he witnessed the universe burn up and fall as massive columns of fire, beyond all measure in height and depth into the GREAT ABYSS, which is described by Enoch, as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which, there was nothing, not even the space in which the universe had existed.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein"Cartan"Sciama"Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein"Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the star of our solar system, can form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reform them to their original state, with no damage done.

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the eternal and boundless cosmos, they could also connect two different universes.

Perhaps the answer as to what was, before the event that is called the BIG BANG, may be found in the Holy Scriptures.
The S-word of God. The sharp two edged Tongue, that cuts all the way through to the division of the Soul and the spirit.
Stronn
Posts: 683
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5/31/2018 8:38:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

There are lots of things that once "made sense" before we learned more. Once, for instance, it made sense that the Earth could not possibly be a sphere because people on the other side would fall upwards. It made sense at one time that the Moon and stars must be attached to something, otherwise they would fall to Earth. It once made sense that you could take a rock and cut it in half indefinitely, each piece being a smaller rock
Gentorev
Posts: 6,038
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5/31/2018 8:42:33 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 8:38:25 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

There are lots of things that once "made sense" before we learned more. Once, for instance, it made sense that the Earth could not possibly be a sphere because people on the other side would fall upwards. It made sense at one time that the Moon and stars must be attached to something, otherwise they would fall to Earth. It once made sense that you could take a rock and cut it in half indefinitely, each piece being a smaller rock


But what made sense long ago still makes sense today, and that is, that all that exists has always existed in some form or another, otherwise it could not exist today.
The S-word of God. The sharp two edged Tongue, that cuts all the way through to the division of the Soul and the spirit.
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
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5/31/2018 9:34:38 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:

It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed.

If by "always existed" you mean all of time then that is very true.

No creation, no big bang.

Hold on a second. No creation, yes. If by Big Bang you mean whatever state the universe was at the Planck Epoch which then went through a process of hyperinflation to eventually produce the universe we know today, there is heaps of evidence to support that this occurred. The Big Bang Theory says nothing about "before" the Planck Epoch.
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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5/31/2018 9:58:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 9:34:38 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:

It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed.

If by "always existed" you mean all of time then that is very true.

No creation, no big bang.

Hold on a second. No creation, yes. If by Big Bang you mean whatever state the universe was at the Planck Epoch which then went through a process of hyperinflation to eventually produce the universe we know today, there is heaps of evidence to support that this occurred. The Big Bang Theory says nothing about "before" the Planck Epoch.

I'm not disagreeing,but adding that relatvity and qm tell us that 'common sense' and "it's obvious" only get you so far. Whatever 'caused the big bang' will be 'not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine'.

I'm not bothered there is a problem with 'before the big bang'- I like problems like that. I'd really like to think i'll live long enough to read about some genius at MIT or Oxford who has worked it all out. I don't know that I'd understand it anyway, but I expect someone would do a really cool animation of it!
dee-em
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5/31/2018 10:08:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 9:58:34 AM, keithprosser wrote:
At 5/31/2018 9:34:38 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:

It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed.

If by "always existed" you mean all of time then that is very true.

No creation, no big bang.

Hold on a second. No creation, yes. If by Big Bang you mean whatever state the universe was at the Planck Epoch which then went through a process of hyperinflation to eventually produce the universe we know today, there is heaps of evidence to support that this occurred. The Big Bang Theory says nothing about "before" the Planck Epoch.

I'm not disagreeing,but adding that relatvity and qm tell us that 'common sense' and "it's obvious" only get you so far. Whatever 'caused the big bang' will be 'not only stranger than we imagine but stranger than we can imagine'.

The strangest part may well be that the concept of a "cause" does not apply, that the universe is uncaused.

I'm not bothered there is a problem with 'before the big bang'- I like problems like that. I'd really like to think i'll live long enough to read about some genius at MIT or Oxford who has worked it all out. I don't know that I'd understand it anyway, but I expect someone would do a really cool animation of it!
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
keithprosser
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5/31/2018 10:22:36 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 10:08:40 AM, dee-em wrote:

The strangest part may well be that the concept of a "cause" does not apply, that the universe is uncaused.

Whenever I try to think about it I just get 'Does not compute' sounding off in my brain. Suppose time starts at the BB... is that a solution? I can't imagine 'time starting' without wondering what 'but what happened just before that?' no matter how hard i try not to!

I decided to delegate solving such conundrums to skinny nerds with glasses and no girlfriend but who do know what tensor calculus is. I'll read about it in sci am when they're done.
Stronn
Posts: 683
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5/31/2018 11:15:55 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 8:42:33 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 5/31/2018 8:38:25 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

There are lots of things that once "made sense" before we learned more. Once, for instance, it made sense that the Earth could not possibly be a sphere because people on the other side would fall upwards. It made sense at one time that the Moon and stars must be attached to something, otherwise they would fall to Earth. It once made sense that you could take a rock and cut it in half indefinitely, each piece being a smaller rock


But what made sense long ago still makes sense today, and that is, that all that exists has always existed in some form or another, otherwise it could not exist today.

And it is also conceivable that everything that exists (our universe) sprang into being through laws of physics about which we as yet have no inkling.

The length of time something has made sense is not a terribly compelling reason to believe it. Especially when the "sense" we are using is derived solely from our everyday experience here on Earth, yet we are attempting to apply it to the universe as a whole. Something is bound to go wrong.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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5/31/2018 1:40:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 7:52:03 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 5/31/2018 1:46:35 AM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

It is beyond the scope of the big bang theory to determine what if anything existed or happened before the expansion event. We do however know that the universe once existed in an increasingly hot dense state which expanded and continues to expand at immense speeds. That this energy may have always existed does not actually effect the big bang theory in any way. Regardless of how the universe came to be in that hot dense state is beyond our current cosmological model to explain.


If the universe continues to expand at immense speeds, how is it that we, the Milky Way Galaxy are on a collision course with the galaxy Andromeda?

How could the atoms have been formed from the photons/wave particles, which are not particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, if the photons, the quantum of the electromagnetic energy from which this universe was created were continually expanding away from each other?

How could the first hydrogen atoms be gathered together in the creation of the first massive generation hydrogen stars, if those atoms were continually expanding away from each other?

How could the galaxies, which were created from those first massive nuclear reactors, have begun to clump together, in the galactic clusters that are now speeding toward that which our scientists call, the Great Attractor, if they were continually expanding away from each other?

Here you go! I Googled this up for you.

The Great Attractor: what is this thing?

The smallest unit of galaxies out there is our local group, comprising the Milky Way, the Andromeda galaxy and about 50 others. The Local Group is in turn part of the Virgo Supercluster containing some 40,000 members. Beyond all this is an unseen object called the Great Attractor which is pulling the Milky Way and all else towards it at the terrific speed of 14 million mph. What is this thing, how far away is it, and what will happen when we reach it? No one knows.

Detailed observations of the galaxies around us indicate that there is superposed on the Hubble flow a large-scale streaming motion of about 600 km/s in the general direction of the constellation Centaurus.

This mass migration includes the Local Group, the Virgo Cluster, the Hydra--Centaurus Supercluster, and other groups and clusters for a distance of at least 60 Mpc up and downstream from us. It is as if a great river of galaxies (including our own) is flowing with a swift current of 600 km/s toward Centaurus.

Calculations indicate that ~1016 solar masses concentrated 65 Mpc away in the direction of Centaurus would account for this. This mass concentration has been dubbed the Great Attractor. Detailed investigation of that region of the galaxy cluster Abell 3627) finds 10 times too little visible matter to account for this flow, again implying a dominant gravitational role for unseen or dark matter. Thus, the Great Attractor is certainly there (because we see its gravitational influence), but the major portion of the mass that must be there cannot be seen in our telescopes.

Enoch, the only man recorded in the Scriptures to have been carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation, and who was anointed as his successor, was then escorted to the ends of time, where he witnessed the universe burn up and fall as massive columns of fire, beyond all measure in height and depth into the GREAT ABYSS, which is described by Enoch, as the prison of all the stars and the host of heaven, beyond which, there was nothing, not even the space in which the universe had existed.

In 1935, Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen used the theory of general relativity to elaborate on the idea of black holes and worm holes, proposing the existence of "bridges" through space-time. These bridges connect two different points in space-time, theoretically creating a shortcut that could reduce travel time and distance; Billions of light years to mere metres.

According to general relativity, the gravitational collapse of a sufficiently compact mass forms a singular Schwarzschild black hole. In the Einstein"Cartan"Sciama"Kibble theory of gravity, however, it forms a regular Einstein"Rosen bridge.

The gravitational collapse of a single star such as the star of our solar system, can form a White Dwarf, the gravitational collapse of bigger stars can create a neutron star, or a Black Hole, depending on its mass, but not necessarily a Worm Hole.

A worm Hole could theoretically be used as a method of sending information or travelers through space unfortunately, physical matter which includes humans journeying through the space tunnels would appear to be an impossibility as there are strong indications that material objects travelling through a worm hole is forbidden by the law of physics.

But now that it has been discovered that Physical matter is but an illusion, and all is, but the eternal energy, perhaps one day new technology may develop a way to teleport bodies of energy along light beams and reform them to their original state, with no damage done.

Wormholes may not only connect two separate regions within the eternal and boundless cosmos, they could also connect two different universes.

Perhaps the answer as to what was, before the event that is called the BIG BANG, may be found in the Holy Scriptures.

Religion and science are not the same thing and they should not be used to attempt to do the job of the other. Are you asking how all this happens or how we know? Or did you simply want to make an argument from ignorance a an argument from incredulity? Because the answer to at least Some of your questions is we don't know, but that in no way acts as evidence of a deity or cosmic awareness of any kind.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Gentorev
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6/1/2018 8:39:12 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/31/2018 1:40:13 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:

Religion and science are not the same thing and they should not be used to attempt to do the job of the other. Are you asking how all this happens or how we know? Or did you simply want to make an argument from ignorance a an argument from incredulity? Because the answer to at least Some of your questions is we don't know, but that in no way acts as evidence of a deity or cosmic awareness of any kind.

Cosmological theories are formulated by scientists, and theories by definition, are the unproven hypothesis, suppositions, and opinions of those scientists, who, like Hawking are prone to change their minds, leaving those who believed by faith alone, the original theory of those particular scientists, standing out on a shaky limb.
There are as many, if not more scientific theories as to the origin of our universe, as there are differing religious bodies, such as Christianity, Hindu, Abrahamic, Muslim, etc.

Here is but one of many theories as to the creation of our three dimensional universe. This one is by Niayesh Afshordi, an astrophysicist with Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Canada, who proposes that our three-dimensional universe floats as a membrane in a "bulk universe" that has four dimensions and that the "Bulk Universe" has four dimensional stars, which go through the same life cycles as our three dimensional stars.

The most massive ones explode as supernovae, and their central core collapses into a black hole, like in our universe---only in four dimension. The four dimensional black hole has its own four dimensional "Event Horizon," the boundary between the inside and the outside of a black hole.

In a three dimensional universe, the event horizon appears to be two dimensional. In a four dimensional universe, it appears to be three dimensional. The four dimensional black hole, then blows apart, with the leftover material forming a three dimensional membrane surrounding a three dimensional event horizon, which expands---and is essentially our universe.

So, according to the theory proposed by Niayesh Afshordi, our universe is the vomited-up guts of a fourth dimensional black hole. The expansion of the event horizon explains our universe's expansion; the fact that its creation stems from another 4D universe explains the weird temperature uniformity.

According to the best theory we have today as to the origin of this generation of the universe, it was some 14 billion years ago, that an immense explosion, known as the Big Bang, spewed out massive amounts of liquid like electromagnetic energy in the trillions and trillions of degrees, creating a rapidly expanding universe.

Within moments of the expansion, the universal temperature had dropped to some billions of degrees, and the vibrating wave particles, which were the quantum of that energy, having linear and ANGULAR momentum, collided in nuclear fusion reactions to form hydrogen and helium and when the universal temperature had cooled to a point where fusion stopped generating these basic elements, it left hydrogen as the dominant component from which the first gigantic stars were created, in which massive atomic reactors, the heavier elements, such as carbon and oxygen, would be created.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called "Black Holes," in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.

The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

This was the end of the first of the six creative days, or periods of universal activity.

Was the earth created before the minor sun of our solar system as recorded in the scriptures?
The S-word of God. The sharp two edged Tongue, that cuts all the way through to the division of the Soul and the spirit.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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6/1/2018 1:37:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 6/1/2018 8:39:12 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 5/31/2018 1:40:13 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:

Religion and science are not the same thing and they should not be used to attempt to do the job of the other. Are you asking how all this happens or how we know? Or did you simply want to make an argument from ignorance a an argument from incredulity? Because the answer to at least Some of your questions is we don't know, but that in no way acts as evidence of a deity or cosmic awareness of any kind.

Cosmological theories are formulated by scientists, and theories by definition, are the unproven hypothesis, suppositions, and opinions of those scientists, who, like Hawking are prone to change their minds, leaving those who believed by faith alone, the original theory of those particular scientists, standing out on a shaky limb.

No that is incotrect. In science a theory is the highest level of truth available, it is based on a solid body of evidence. A scientific theory is not a guess or an oppiniin. That is actually the difference between a hypothesis and a theory. For someone who claims to understand science and claims his hypotheses are supported by science this shows a disturbing lack of understanding of basic scientific definitions.

There are as many, if not more scientific theories as to the origin of our universe, as there are differing religious bodies, such as Christianity, Hindu, Abrahamic, Muslim, etc.

The big bang theory does not propose how the universe began only that it once existed in a hot dense state which expanded and continues to expand at immense speeds. Any idea concerning how it came to be in this state in the first place would be merely a hypothesis.

Here is but one of many theories as to the creation of our three dimensional universe. This one is by Niayesh Afshordi, an astrophysicist with Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Canada, who proposes that our three-dimensional universe floats as a membrane in a "bulk universe" that has four dimensions and that the "Bulk Universe" has four dimensional stars, which go through the same life cycles as our three dimensional stars.

The most massive ones explode as supernovae, and their central core collapses into a black hole, like in our universe---only in four dimension. The four dimensional black hole has its own four dimensional "Event Horizon," the boundary between the inside and the outside of a black hole.

In a three dimensional universe, the event horizon appears to be two dimensional. In a four dimensional universe, it appears to be three dimensional. The four dimensional black hole, then blows apart, with the leftover material forming a three dimensional membrane surrounding a three dimensional event horizon, which expands---and is essentially our universe.

So, according to the theory proposed by Niayesh Afshordi, our universe is the vomited-up guts of a fourth dimensional black hole. The expansion of the event horizon explains our universe's expansion; the fact that its creation stems from another 4D universe explains the weird temperature uniformity.

That is an interesting idea, but it is a hypothesis not a theory.

According to the best theory we have today as to the origin of this generation of the universe, it was some 14 billion years ago, that an immense explosion, known as the Big Bang, spewed out massive amounts of liquid like electromagnetic energy in the trillions and trillions of degrees, creating a rapidly expanding universe.

Yes the big bang is a theory but it does not propose to explain the origins of the universe but only how it came to be in its current form, you have made a claim that is beyond the theory by using the words origin and generation as we cannot support these ideas with the evidence available .

Within moments of the expansion, the universal temperature had dropped to some billions of degrees, and the vibrating wave particles, which were the quantum of that energy, having linear and ANGULAR momentum, collided in nuclear fusion reactions to form hydrogen and helium and when the universal temperature had cooled to a point where fusion stopped generating these basic elements, it left hydrogen as the dominant component from which the first gigantic stars were created, in which massive atomic reactors, the heavier elements, such as carbon and oxygen, would be created.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called "Black Holes," in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.

So far so good.

The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Not sure what you mean by day in this context but it was not the first stage of the current form of our universe that would be the big bang itself.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

Expanding space. Space is expanding not contracting.

This was the end of the first of the six creative days, or periods of universal activity.

This involves some personal interpretation of science that is not proposed by any scientific theory.

Was the earth created before the minor sun of our solar system as recorded in the scriptures?

No it was not. The materials that formed the earth were created but flour milk and eggs are not bread they are flour milk and eggs. The sun was ignited into a fully fledged star before the earth was even an accretion disc.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
Goldtop
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6/1/2018 3:05:40 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 6/1/2018 8:39:12 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 5/31/2018 1:40:13 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:

Religion and science are not the same thing and they should not be used to attempt to do the job of the other. Are you asking how all this happens or how we know? Or did you simply want to make an argument from ignorance a an argument from incredulity? Because the answer to at least Some of your questions is we don't know, but that in no way acts as evidence of a deity or cosmic awareness of any kind.

Cosmological theories are formulated by scientists, and theories by definition, are the unproven hypothesis, suppositions, and opinions of those scientists, who, like Hawking are prone to change their minds, leaving those who believed by faith alone, the original theory of those particular scientists, standing out on a shaky limb.
There are as many, if not more scientific theories as to the origin of our universe, as there are differing religious bodies, such as Christianity, Hindu, Abrahamic, Muslim, etc.

Here is but one of many theories as to the creation of our three dimensional universe. This one is by Niayesh Afshordi, an astrophysicist with Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics in Canada, who proposes that our three-dimensional universe floats as a membrane in a "bulk universe" that has four dimensions and that the "Bulk Universe" has four dimensional stars, which go through the same life cycles as our three dimensional stars.

The most massive ones explode as supernovae, and their central core collapses into a black hole, like in our universe---only in four dimension. The four dimensional black hole has its own four dimensional "Event Horizon," the boundary between the inside and the outside of a black hole.

In a three dimensional universe, the event horizon appears to be two dimensional. In a four dimensional universe, it appears to be three dimensional. The four dimensional black hole, then blows apart, with the leftover material forming a three dimensional membrane surrounding a three dimensional event horizon, which expands---and is essentially our universe.

So, according to the theory proposed by Niayesh Afshordi, our universe is the vomited-up guts of a fourth dimensional black hole. The expansion of the event horizon explains our universe's expansion; the fact that its creation stems from another 4D universe explains the weird temperature uniformity.

According to the best theory we have today as to the origin of this generation of the universe, it was some 14 billion years ago, that an immense explosion, known as the Big Bang, spewed out massive amounts of liquid like electromagnetic energy in the trillions and trillions of degrees, creating a rapidly expanding universe.

Within moments of the expansion, the universal temperature had dropped to some billions of degrees, and the vibrating wave particles, which were the quantum of that energy, having linear and ANGULAR momentum, collided in nuclear fusion reactions to form hydrogen and helium and when the universal temperature had cooled to a point where fusion stopped generating these basic elements, it left hydrogen as the dominant component from which the first gigantic stars were created, in which massive atomic reactors, the heavier elements, such as carbon and oxygen, would be created.

Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called "Black Holes," in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.

The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed.

Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

This was the end of the first of the six creative days, or periods of universal activity.

Was the earth created before the minor sun of our solar system as recorded in the scriptures?

Is it your favorite pastime to misrepresent science?
WisdomOfAges
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6/1/2018 5:22:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
GOOD NEWS !.........no human KNOWS....

The mindset of POSSIBILITIES....offers possibilities.....and so far HUMANS have conceived
many possibilities...NONE ARE ABSOLUTE....

THE "GOD" psychopaths..offer some GOD ? (thousands to choose from) in a way where there is no other possibility the UNIVERSE existed than by the GOD that has been implanted in their neural network from very clever CHURCH-MOSQUE-TEMPLE mind molesters....These MIND molesting humans HYPNOTIZED the vulnerable human mind of other humans into a state of servitude...the GOD is a scapegoat tool for POWER and CONTROL of the masses of asses...simple !

Other non-GOD infested human brains try to justify various interpretations of the UNIVERSE origin...OK, but none are ABSOLUTE...but can be very entertaining and interesting...

So...that leaves the most important POSSIBILITY...and that is for all HUMANS to consider any interpretation of the UNIVERSE-MULTIVERSE-BUBBLEVERSE-QUANTUM-STRING-+++ without FEAR-INTIMIDATION-VIOLENCE which is the essence of the Middle East GOD spin RELIGIONS...these psychopaths who themselves have taken the JEW GOD of MOSES (1000 BC) and spun him into JESUS for the Christian imbecile...and the same JEW GOD is spun into the ALLAH God for the Islam Religion imbecile...regardless
the Middle East GOD versions = JESUS and ALLAH have over 3 billion hypnotized sheeple drones in constant conflict over the same Moses JEW GOD..using FEAR-INTIMIDATION-VIOLENCE to not think...not ask..not question..just shut up and OBEY
or SUFFER...

Sadly this Middle East DISEASE is spreading with unprecedented DEATH and DESTRUCTION following it...

WHEN HUMANS relegate the Middle East GOD garbage of Jesus for Christian psychosis
and ALLah for muslim psychosis to MYTHOLOGY...then humans can consider possibilities and venture further into the UNIVERSE with an open MIND of the
..........POSSIBILITIES...and perhaps have a better interpretation...or real provable FACTS
Stupidape
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6/1/2018 6:46:27 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

There is any number of explanations. One idea is the universe is based upon a computer simulation. This then begs the question what provides electricity and repairs to the computer running the universe.

"High-profile physicists and philosophers gathered to debate whether we are real or virtual"and what it means either way"

Overall, I find it more likely that we are living in a computer simulation then a gigantic humanoid creating us.

https://www.scientificamerican.com...
WisdomOfAges
Posts: 571
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6/1/2018 7:11:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Remove your BRAIN from your body....and keep it alive ? does it have consciousness...

Do this BRAIN removal in your imagination NOW...without the sensors of the body and no mobility what is your THOUGHT composed of ? are the images..voices...feelings....REAL ? YES....they are fragments of the experiences prior to removal...can YOU receive or create new information without the BODY...YES...can a NEWBORN brain do this ? a BRAIN without body experiences...is it conscious ?

like take a walk along a deserted beach with mellow waves caressing white sand beaches
and turquoise water....IS IT REAL ? YES...these objects and nuances of sound and movement EXIST in a different dimension....is that what the universe is ? dimensional wavelengths and frequencies..and FORM is merely a composition of multi wavelengths
and frequencies.... humans LABEL..UNIVERSE ? perhaps...just a possibility...
Geogeer
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6/1/2018 7:11:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed.

Unfortunately modern science seems to imply otherwise. Infinite regress is a problem for an infinite universe... and entropy too.

You can't get something from nothing.

True.

You can't create or destroy energy.

Not necessarily true. The universe appears to be a closed system. Thus nothing inside the universe can create or destroy energy. However, we cannot say that something outside of the universe cannot create or destroy energy as we do not know what energy IS.

Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

Sorry false conclusion.
WisdomOfAges
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6/1/2018 7:36:05 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
BLACK HOLE ? Material swirls round and round the event horizon..like a hurricane..yet the eye of the hurricane is calm....what of the BLACK HOLE ? material is altered and jettisoned out like a bowtie placed sideways...seems like anything is merely a form of circumstances...perhaps our idea of 13 billion years of expansion is just a supermassive BLACK HOLE burst...and the UNIVERSE as humans identify from the BIG BANG ? is nothing more than the material blasted outwards...which means opposite universes are going the other way...kind of like a 2 sided tornado....there are small and monster black holes...all spewing new universes...in a scale beyond human awareness..so far anyway..
Gentorev
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6/1/2018 9:15:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 6/1/2018 1:37:57 PM, SecularMerlin wrote:
At 6/1/2018 8:39:12 AM, Gentorev wrote:

Was the earth created before the minor sun of our solar system as recorded in the scriptures?



No it was not. The materials that formed the earth were created but flour milk and eggs are not bread they are flour milk and eggs. The sun was ignited into a fully fledged star before the earth was even an accretion disc.

This theory would appear to support the biblical statement, that the process of the division of the waters above from the waters below, [See Genesis 1: 6; KJV] or the division of the solar nebula cloud from the greater Galactic nebula cloud, began some five billion years ago, and that the whole process began with the division of the water above, from the waters below from which the entire Solar system was created. This took just a few hundred million years, about 400 million years in fact, and the creation of our entire solar system was completed by about 4.6 billion years ago.

It was from the galactic nebular cloud, which was the residue of the heaver elements that were exploded off with the great super nova, which was the death of one of those gigantic earlier generation Stars that our Milky-Way galaxy would be formed in the second creative period=day, as the active universal forces brought about a division of the Solar nebular cloud [The Waters Below] from the Galactic nebular cloud [The Waters Above].

The accretion of the galactic nebula disk, which was being attracted to the central Black Hole around which it had begun to orbit, transferred angular momentum outward as it transferred mass inward, it was this that caused our solar nebula to begin to rotate and condense inward, bringing a division of the solar cloud, from the galactic cloud, or the waters above from the waters below.

Within the greater galactic nebular cloud, which was slowly beginning to revolve around the Black Hole that anchored it in space, a piece of the larger cloud complex started to collapse about five billion years ago.

The cloud complex had already been "polluted" with dust grains from previous generations of stars, so it was possible to form the rocky terrestrial planets as gravity pulled the gas and dust together, forming a solar nebula. As the cloud=waters of the solar nebula collapsed, its slight rotation increased. This is because of the conservation of angular momentum.

Just like a dancer who spins faster as she pulls in her arms, the cloud began to spin as it collapsed. Eventually, the cloud grew hotter and denser in the centre, with a disk of gas and dust surrounding it that was hot in the centre but cool at the edges. As the disk got thinner and thinner, particles began to stick together and form clumps.

Some clumps got bigger, as particles and small clumps stuck to them, eventually forming planets or moons. Genesis 1: 6"9. As the heavenly cloud was gathered together in one place, dry land, or rather planets began to form. Near the centre of the condensing cloud, where planets like earth formed, only rocky material could stand the great heat. Icy matter settled in the outer regions of the disk along with rocky material, where the giant planets like Jupiter formed.

As the cloud continued to fall in, the centre would get so hot that it would eventually become a star and blow away most of the gas and dust from which the planets of the solar system had been formed, with a strong stellar wind.

By studying meteorites, which are thought to be left over from this early phase of the solar system, scientists have found that the solar system is about 4.6 billion years old! As the solar nebula collapsed, the gas and dust heated up through collisions among the particles. The solar nebula heated up to around 3000 K so everything was in a gaseous form. The solar nebula's composition was similar to the present-day Sun's composition: about 93% hydrogen, 6% helium, and about 1% silicates and iron, and the density of the gas and dust increased toward the core where the proto-sun was: [PROTO SUN.]. The inner, denser regions collapsed more quickly than the outer regions.

Around Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun the temperature was cool enough to freeze water (the so-called "snow line" or "frost line"). Further out from the proto-Sun, ammonia and methane were able to condense. There was a significant amount of water closer to the Proto-sun, but could not condense. When the solar nebula stopped collapsing it began cooling, though the core that would later form the Sun remained hot.

This meant that the outer parts of the solar nebula cooled off more than the inner parts closer to the hot proto-Sun. Only metal and rock materials could condense (solidify) at the high temperatures close to the proto-Sun. Therefore, the metal and rock materials could condense in all the places where the planets were forming. Volatile materials (like water, methane and ammonia) could only condense in the outer parts of the solar nebula.

Because the density of the solar nebula material increased inward, there was more water at Jupiter's distance than at the distances of Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune. The greater amount of water ice at Jupiter's distance from the proto-Sun helped it grow larger than the other planets. Although, there was more water closer to the proto-Sun than Jupiter, that water was too warm to condense. Material with the highest freezing temperatures condensed to form the chondrules that were then incorporated in lower freezing temperature material. Chondrules (from Ancient Greek chondros, meaning grain) are round grains found in chondrites. Chondrules form as molten or partially molten droplets in space before being accreted to their parent asteroids.

Any material that later became part of a planet underwent further heating and processing when the planet differentiated so the heavy metals sunk to the planet's core and lighter metals floated up to nearer the surface.

Because of its great compression, the core of the proto-Sun finally reached about 10 million Kelvin and after the planets of the solar system had been created, the hydrogen nuclei started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy.
It was then that the proto-Sun "TURNED ON" and became our Sun, which produced the strong winds called T-Tauri winds named after the prototype star in the constellation Taurus.

These winds swept out the rest of the nebula that was not already incorporated into the planets. After the sun had TURNED ON, there was no more material from which to create any more planets.

With most of the cocoon gas blown away, the new star itself becomes visible to the outside for the first time. This whole process took just a few hundred million years and was finished by about 4.6 billion years ago.
The S-word of God. The sharp two edged Tongue, that cuts all the way through to the division of the Soul and the spirit.
Gentorev
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6/1/2018 9:24:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Continued from post #24.

At the distance of about one light year from the earth, is the great icy Dome, that is the boundary of the firmament of our heavens, in which the sun, moon, and planets of our solar system were created.

According to the Genesis narrative, it is on the second day that the Lord calls for a "firmament" to be in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:
"And God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under (or within) the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)

The term "firmament" according to the Creation account, is taken from the Hebrew: raqiya` raw-kee'-ah, which is defined by many scholars as an expanse, or the visible arch of the sky:"firmament, but a primitive root; raqa` raw-kah" means, to pound, hammer, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):"beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.

The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure, and in some modern Bibles many modern scholars translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault". The Hebrew language appears to imply that the firmament is a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament, which can now be seen as the spherical cloud of comets (Icy vault) in which our solar system was created from the solar nebula cloud that was divided from the greater galactic nebula cloud.

"And God said, "Let there be lights within the firmament=vault to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."
(Genesis 1:14-16 KJV)

This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars=planets of our solar system, are "within" the firmament. Therefore, the waters that are "above the firmament=dome/vault" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars=planets of our solar system, revealing that the waters which are referred to in Psalms 148:4; "Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens," belong to the greater galactic nebula cloud which has become our Milky Way Galaxy.

The Oort cloud, or the Opik-Oort cloud, which is named after Jan Oort, is a spherical cloud that surrounds our solar system, a cloud of predominantly icy objects such as comets that are comprised of mainly hydrogen, oxygen=water, ammonia and methane, and extends up to about a light year from the sun and defines the cosmographical boundary of our Solar System and the region of the suns gravitational dominance. Here is the Firmament, the great spherical vault within which is found the sun, moons and planets of our solar system, the dome of ice above us.

Knowing that the planets of our solar system were already created before the sun came into existence when the hydrogen nuclei within the condensing solar cloud started fusing together to produce helium nuclei and a lot of energy thereby creating our sun, we must now ask the question, "Did life on earth begin to evolve before the creation of the sun?" As is recorded in the Bible. And can life exist without sunlight? Proof of this is to be found in the darkest depths of our oceans, where life has evolved over six miles beneath the surface where sunlight does not and cannot penetrate. This subject will be discussed at a later stage.
The S-word of God. The sharp two edged Tongue, that cuts all the way through to the division of the Soul and the spirit.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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6/1/2018 9:24:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Gentorev before we move on to your latest claims could we please address your apparent confusion about the difference between a theory and a hypothesis? Without this very basic understanding we may not be able to get any further.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol
dsjpk5
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6/1/2018 9:39:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

You can't get to today if you have an infinite number of yesterdays. The universe had to have a beginning.
Outplayz
Posts: 3,398
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6/1/2018 10:49:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 6/1/2018 9:39:41 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

You can't get to today if you have an infinite number of yesterdays. The universe had to have a beginning.

If time and space have always been infinite, and everything else, matter, energy, etc. had a beginning but are now infinitely moving forward, then this problem becomes a non-problem. I would agree if "everything" is infinite then that makes no sense bc we run into the problem as you describe, but we can still have an infinite setting / platform, ie space-time, that allows for infinite possibilities of "stuff" happening throughout its infinite expansion into the future. Therefore, i believe time and space have always existed, possibly energy too, but everything else that happens is sorta a finite occurrence in an infinite platform.
"For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal is psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity." --- Jean Dubuffet
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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6/1/2018 11:18:15 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 6/1/2018 9:39:41 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

You can't get to today if you have an infinite number of yesterdays. The universe had to have a beginning.

Yet most people before Hubble - including Einstein - thought the past was inifinite.
dsjpk5
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6/2/2018 12:24:58 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 6/1/2018 10:49:26 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 6/1/2018 9:39:41 PM, dsjpk5 wrote:
At 5/30/2018 7:23:17 PM, janesix wrote:
It makes more sense that the universe has always existed. You can't get something from nothing. You can't create or destroy energy. Therefore it must have always existed. No creation, no big bang.

You can't get to today if you have an infinite number of yesterdays. The universe had to have a beginning.

If time and space have always been infinite, and everything else, matter, energy, etc. had a beginning but are now infinitely moving forward, then this problem becomes a non-problem. I would agree if "everything" is infinite then that makes no sense bc we run into the problem as you describe, but we can still have an infinite setting / platform, ie space-time, that allows for infinite possibilities of "stuff" happening throughout its infinite expansion into the future. Therefore, i believe time and space have always existed, possibly energy too, but everything else that happens is sorta a finite occurrence in an infinite platform.

Except that's not what leading cosmologists say. They say space and physical time both had a beginning.