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Has Judaism been abandoned by God?

MadCornishBiker
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5/30/2013 6:07:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Scripture tells us that the nation of Israel was warned many times what the result of their unfaithfulness would be.

They were even taken into captivity and their temple destroyed in punishment for that, and then eventually released in the hope that they would learn.

Eventually God sent His son to them to try and save all he could and bring them into the promised New Covenant, and therefore end the old one, the Mosaic Law Covenant. Jesus himself outlined the process at Matthew 21:33-46 which shows that even the Scribes and Pharisees recognised the fulfilment of prophecy that was imminent, and hated Jesus all the more for it.

True to that prophecy, and the one on Daniel 9, the Messiah came, preached, was rejected like the Prophets before him and eventually put to death and the Mosaic Covenant ended.

True to that prophecy (Daniel 9) the old covenant was "kept open for the many" for a while, but was finally closed both with the destruction, once again, of the temple, and the pouring out of God's spirit on the faithful few who had followed His son's teachings.

From that point on there was no way back for Judaism as a whole, though any individual who chose to join in with those who followed the path Christ laid out were to be accepted.

Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship.

It is simply up to us to respond.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
muzebreak
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5/30/2013 6:35:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"If there is a god, he will have to beg my forgiveness" - A phrase carved into a concentration camp cell, by a Jewish prisoner.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
philochristos
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5/30/2013 7:04:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 6:07:11 AM, MadCornishBiker wrote:

Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship.

The Jehovah's Witnesses, right? :-)

I dunno. I'm in a debate right now with a Catholic, and he thinks the Catholic church is God's only spirit led organization.[1] But you think Jehovah's Witnesses are God's only spirit led organization. On the one hand, the Catholic Catachism says, "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been intrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone."[2] On the other hand, the Watchtower magazine says, "All who want to understand the Bible should appreciate that the 'greatly diversified wisdom of God' can become known only through Jehovah's channel of communication, the faithful and discreet slave."[3] If I can't read and understand the Bible on my own, then how can I decide which of these organizations is right?

1. http://www.debate.org...

2. http://www.vatican.va...

3. Watchtower magazine, dated October 1, 1994, page 8.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
philochristos
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5/30/2013 7:10:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Or maybe it's the Mormons. They are like the Jehovah's Witnesses in the fact that they think there was a major falling away and that God had to restore the church in these latter days. What all of these organizations have in common is that they all have some authority at the top who determines everything. They alone have the authority to accurately interpret scripture, and conveniently enough, the Scripture endorses them.
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
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5/30/2013 9:22:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship."

Explain this one, especially "the time of the end" and "Christ sought". Who exactly is this "faithful remnant" who form a "new group." Who and where is this group?

Much of what you say in this post would be correct. That the church of Jesus Christ fell away is a documented fact to anybody but a Catholic - and they have to try to claim that the Spirit led papa and his redbirds off into Bible-contradicting teachings. So it all becomes a matter of restoration, but Jesus Christ has always been seeking through His word - not a new group - but a return to the old.
Nur-Ab-Sal
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5/30/2013 10:17:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 7:04:54 AM, philochristos wrote:
If I can't read and understand the Bible on my own, then how can I decide which of these organizations is right?

Reasonable exegesis?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Nur-Ab-Sal
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5/30/2013 10:23:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 9:22:12 AM, annanicole wrote:
"Of course the Christian Congregation, after the death of teh Apostles, went the same way as Judaism had, and like Judaism was allowed to do so until this present time, the time of the end, when again Christ sought, this time from Heaven, a faithful remnant to form into a new group to once again bring the faithful back into the fold, into true worship."

Explain this one, especially "the time of the end" and "Christ sought". Who exactly is this "faithful remnant" who form a "new group." Who and where is this group?

Much of what you say in this post would be correct. That the church of Jesus Christ fell away is a documented fact to anybody but a Catholic - and they have to try to claim that the Spirit led papa and his redbirds off into Bible-contradicting teachings. So it all becomes a matter of restoration, but Jesus Christ has always been seeking through His word - not a new group - but a return to the old.

What makes you think you have the right Church, annanicole?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
Eitan_Zohar
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5/30/2013 10:26:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 7:10:11 AM, philochristos wrote:
Or maybe it's the Mormons. They are like the Jehovah's Witnesses in the fact that they think there was a major falling away and that God had to restore the church in these latter days. What all of these organizations have in common is that they all have some authority at the top who determines everything. They alone have the authority to accurately interpret scripture, and conveniently enough, the Scripture endorses them.

The Mormons are far less cultish.
annanicole
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5/30/2013 10:34:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"What makes you think you have the right Church, annanicole?"

Technically, I don't. Jesus Christ has the right church. One can't join it to save his life - or his soul. I'm not in the "joining" business, but if I were, I think I'd "join" lots of sects. One is added to the church ... translated into the kingdom ... passive ... as an effect of complying with God's law of pardon. When one does that, Jesus Christ will add one to the church since the church is the saved, and the saved are the church.

I can eliminate 98% of the so-called "Christian" religious bodies today simply on the basis that they do not teach or practice God's plan of conversion. On that subject, the Catholics had (and have) it closer than the Protestants. I'll "x" off any group that runs around saying that baptism is unnecessary to salvation, so that eliminates the Methodists, Baptists, Episcopals, Presbyterians, etc.
AlbinoBunny
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5/30/2013 11:22:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
My psychic friend accessed the untempered schism and said that it told him that Judaism hadn't been abandoned by God, but Christianity has been.
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PGA
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5/30/2013 1:24:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hello MadCornishBiker,

I think I know where you are coming from, and I tend to agree with what you have said to date. Are you a Preterist or partial-Preterist?

To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70. I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner. Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT.

The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are key passages, that, along with the book of Hebrews and Revelation form a hub the extends and radiates into most books of the Bible in regards to prophecy. Deuteronomy and Daniel is also very significant for our understanding and building a strong argument. I think these are a tremendous attestation that the Bible is what it claims to be - the very word of God.

Peter
PGA
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5/30/2013 1:35:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 1:24:09 PM, PGA wrote:
Hello MadCornishBiker,

I think I know where you are coming from, and I tend to agree with what you have said to date. Are you a Preterist or partial-Preterist?

To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70. I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner. Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT.

The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are key passages, that, along with the book of Hebrews and Revelation form a hub that extends and radiates into most books of the Bible in regards to prophecy. Deuteronomy and Daniel is also very significant for our understanding and building a strong argument. I think these are a tremendous attestation that the Bible is what it claims to be - the very word of God.

Peter

So, yes, in answer to your question, God has replaced the Old Covenant with the New Covenant. As Matthew 5:17-18 says, not one jot or title of the law or the prophets would be abandoned until all was fulfilled. Hebrews 8:13 says what is old and obsolete will soon disappear. Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span.

Peter
philochristos
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5/30/2013 3:17:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 10:17:46 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/30/2013 7:04:54 AM, philochristos wrote:
If I can't read and understand the Bible on my own, then how can I decide which of these organizations is right?

Reasonable exegesis?

So I can read and understand the Bible on my own?
"When a wise man has a controversy with a foolish man, the foolish man either rages or laughs, and there is no rest." ~Proverbs 29:9

"Not to know of what things one should demand demonstration, and of what one should not, argues want of education." ~Aristotle

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle
annanicole
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5/30/2013 3:22:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
PGA: "To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70."

Anna: It is very significant. How's that? VERY significant.

PGA: "I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner.:

Anna: True to Part 2 of the sentence, absolutely. I'm curious as to why you think the OT looks to AD 70. I've hardly thought about it, but I do not remember single OT prophesy would link to AD 70.

PGA: "Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT."

Anna: Bingo!

PGA: "The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age."

Anna: I would add for clarity the amazing amount of preaching that John and Jesus did concerning the kingdom which came on Pentecost - the church.

PGA: "I think these are a tremendous attestation that the Bible is what it claims to be - the very word of God."

Anna: Very much so. Always in my top 5 reasons for believing the Bible to be true. Those "future-fulfillment" speculators are throwing away an ace of spades.

PGA: "Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span."

Anna: More detail on that? Are you speaking of, for instance, the latter half of Heb 3?
PGA
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5/30/2013 4:51:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hi Deviladvocate,

Since you have supplied so many Scriptural passages I'll sit down later this evening or tomorrow in reply to your post.

Just a quick question for now. What do you believe Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17-18?

Peter
AlbinoBunny
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5/30/2013 4:59:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Couldn't God have gotten us to write a more entertaining book, it's such a dry read. How does anyone even read a single page?
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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PGA
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5/30/2013 5:30:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 3:22:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
PGA: "To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70."

Anna: It is very significant. How's that? VERY significant.

If you read Matthew 24, for instance, Jesus replies to the three pronged question His disciples ask Him (Matthew 24:3, when will this happen, what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the age. What does 'this happen' refer to? I believe the destruction of the temple, of not one stone being left upon another (Matthew 24:2). Do not forget, chapter and verse are a later addition. In Matthew 23 Jesus' pronounces judgment on the Pharisees and teachers of the law. He tells them that all the righteous judgment from Abel to Zechariah will come upon this generation, that their 'house' will be left to them desolate. He tells them (Matthew 23:32) to 'fill up...[b]the measure of the sin of your forefathers.'[/b] They did this in putting Him to death and during that generation (40 years). They rejected their Messiah.

PGA: "I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner.:

Anna: True to Part 2 of the sentence, absolutely. I'm curious as to why you think the OT looks to AD 70. I've hardly thought about it, but I do not remember single OT prophesy would link to AD 70.

For instance (and there are so many verses of Scripture to choose from), I will take one that is directly connected to Matthew 24:15. Jesus said to [b]them[/b] that when [b[they[/b] see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet - to flee from the city. So if you go back to Daniel 9:24-27 you understand that this is coming upon Daniel's people, the Jew. It is a time in which the holy city finishes its transgression, puts an end to sin, atones for wickedness, brings in everlasting righteousness, seals up vision, and anoints the most holy (or the Holy One). It is a time when the Anointed One will be cut off. It is also a time of war, and desolation in which the city and temple will be destroyed.

PGA: "Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT."

Anna: Bingo!

The question is what does '[b]this generation[/b]' refer to that is mentioned maybe 6-8 times in the gospels?

What is the end of the age that Jesus refers to in verse 3?

I believe it refers to the end of the Jewish age, the age of the Old Covenant.

PGA: "The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age."

Anna: I would add for clarity the amazing amount of preaching that John and Jesus did concerning the kingdom which came on Pentecost - the church.

I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years.

What is the kingdom? How does it manifest itself? How did it manifest itself in the lives of these believers during those 40 years. It was spiritual in nature. Jesus throughout His ministry was always alluding to it being near, at the door, yet different from natural kingdoms.

PGA: "Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span."

Anna: More detail on that? Are you speaking of, for instance, the latter half of Heb 3?

I'll expand on this last statement later. I'm rushed, I have a dragon boat practice.

Peter
bladerunner060
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5/30/2013 5:35:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 5:30:41 PM, PGA wrote:
At 5/30/2013 3:22:56 PM, annanicole wrote:
PGA: "To me, the most significant event in prophecy is A.D. 70."

Anna: It is very significant. How's that? VERY significant.

If you read Matthew 24, for instance, Jesus replies to the three pronged question His disciples ask Him (Matthew 24:3, when will this happen, what will be the sign of His coming and the end of the age. What does 'this happen' refer to? I believe the destruction of the temple, of not one stone being left upon another (Matthew 24:2). Do not forget, chapter and verse are a later addition. In Matthew 23 Jesus' pronounces judgment on the Pharisees and teachers of the law. He tells them that all the righteous judgment from Abel to Zechariah will come upon this generation, that their 'house' will be left to them desolate. He tells them (Matthew 23:32) to 'fill up...[b]the measure of the sin of your forefathers.'[/b] They did this in putting Him to death and during that generation (40 years). They rejected their Messiah.

PGA: "I think the OT looks towards it and the NT sees it just around the corner.:

Anna: True to Part 2 of the sentence, absolutely. I'm curious as to why you think the OT looks to AD 70. I've hardly thought about it, but I do not remember single OT prophesy would link to AD 70.

For instance (and there are so many verses of Scripture to choose from), I will take one that is directly connected to Matthew 24:15. Jesus said to [b]them[/b] that when [b[they[/b] see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation spoken of through Daniel the prophet - to flee from the city. So if you go back to Daniel 9:24-27 you understand that this is coming upon Daniel's people, the Jew. It is a time in which the holy city finishes its transgression, puts an end to sin, atones for wickedness, brings in everlasting righteousness, seals up vision, and anoints the most holy (or the Holy One). It is a time when the Anointed One will be cut off. It is also a time of war, and desolation in which the city and temple will be destroyed.


PGA: "Jesus keeps warning that particular generation of the time of the end, the last days, as do the Apostles and writers of the NT."

Anna: Bingo!

The question is what does '[b]this generation[/b]' refer to that is mentioned maybe 6-8 times in the gospels?

What is the end of the age that Jesus refers to in verse 3?

I believe it refers to the end of the Jewish age, the age of the Old Covenant.


PGA: "The entire NT revolves first and foremost around the Messiah's coming and God's promises to Israel, judgment upon these people for breaking His covenant and continuously worshiping foreign gods and this new righteousness in the New Covenant that brings in the kingdom age."

Anna: I would add for clarity the amazing amount of preaching that John and Jesus did concerning the kingdom which came on Pentecost - the church.

I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years.

What is the kingdom? How does it manifest itself? How did it manifest itself in the lives of these believers during those 40 years. It was spiritual in nature. Jesus throughout His ministry was always alluding to it being near, at the door, yet different from natural kingdoms.

PGA: "Soon to the time of writing would be during the first century, that particular generation, in which Hebrews 2-3 lists as being similar to the generation that perished in the desert (i.e., 40 years and disbelieving). From Jesus' death to A.D. 70 is within that time span."

Anna: More detail on that? Are you speaking of, for instance, the latter half of Heb 3?

I'll expand on this last statement later. I'm rushed, I have a dragon boat practice.

Peter

Just as a heads up, if you want to manually bold something, you can't use b (and certainly not with a bracket), it's <carrot>strong<carrot>, then closed with <carrot>/strong<carrot>.
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annanicole
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5/30/2013 5:42:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
PG: "I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years."

Anna: I believe the kingdom came into its own on Day 1, Pentecost. True, there was a transitional period, and true, the destruction of the temple/dispersion of the Jews removed the greatest hindrance to the early church. Judaism was on the one hand, the greatest obstacle facing Christianity, and on the other, the greatest stumbling-block to Christianity. Certainly the church of Christ benefited greatly from the removal of Judaism as a pest.
Fruitytree
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5/30/2013 8:33:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Jews are not abandoned, and they are still accountable to God and although he was angry with them many times, he still expects them to stick to the laws he gave them.

But before Jesus is back, the anti-Christ will come, and the I think the jews don't have knowledge about him in their scriptures. a Lot of them will follow him, and whoever follows him has lost.

Jesus will come after him and will kill him, then the remaining Jews, the Christians and the Muslims will all be brothers , will all believe in Jesus who will be their king, for until the time is up.
Illegalcombatant
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5/30/2013 8:47:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Don't ya just love each group of people proclaiming it's self to be the saved, the enlightened, the faithful, the remnant, the holders of the truth, Gods anointed, the holders of keys to heaven and hell, the cool aid drinkers.........errr forget that last one.

But but but, I have the TRUTH, of course you do..................just like everybody else.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
PGA
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5/30/2013 8:48:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hi Bladerunner060,
Just as a heads up, if you want to manually bold something, you can't use b (and certainly not with a bracket), it's <carrot>strong<carrot>, then closed with <carrot>/strong<carrot>.

Thanks, I'm new to this particular format. On every other debate forum I've been on you use these [ ] brackets. If you want to embolden something you use [b]text[/b], underline [u]text[/u], etc. I just noticed the icons at the bottom of the page.

The other thing I noticed was if I made a spelling mistake or grammatical error I don't seem to be able to go in after the fact and correct my text.

Peter
AlbinoBunny
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5/30/2013 8:49:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:33:36 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Jews are not abandoned, and they are still accountable to God and although he was angry with them many times, he still expects them to stick to the laws he gave them.

Racism.


But before Jesus is back, the anti-Christ will come, and the I think the jews don't have knowledge about him in their scriptures. a Lot of them will follow him, and whoever follows him has lost.

You just lost the game.


Jesus will come after him and will kill him, then the remaining Jews, the Christians and the Muslims will all be brothers , will all believe in Jesus who will be their king, for until the time is up.

Be careful or you'll be history. Looks like another unsolved mystery. It's murder, murder, murder.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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AlbinoBunny
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5/30/2013 8:51:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:47:41 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
Don't ya just love each group of people proclaiming it's self to be the saved, the enlightened, the faithful, the remnant, the holders of the truth, Gods anointed, the holders of keys to heaven and hell, the cool aid drinkers.........errr forget that last one.

But but but, I have the TRUTH, of course you do..................just like everybody else.

But many people's truth only requires a three letter word and a novel associated with it.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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AlbinoBunny
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5/30/2013 8:53:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:48:46 PM, PGA wrote:

The other thing I noticed was if I made a spelling mistake or grammatical error I don't seem to be able to go in after the fact and correct my text.

Peter

Nobody would abuse that feature on a debate website.
bladerunner060 | bsh1 , 2014! Presidency campaign!

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PGA
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5/30/2013 10:16:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 5:42:42 PM, annanicole wrote:
PG: "I believe that the kingdom came into its own after the destruction of the Old Covenant in A.D. 70. Before this the two existed side-by-side for 40 years."

Anna: I believe the kingdom came into its own on Day 1, Pentecost. True, there was a transitional period, and true, the destruction of the temple/dispersion of the Jews removed the greatest hindrance to the early church. Judaism was on the one hand, the greatest obstacle facing Christianity, and on the other, the greatest stumbling-block to Christianity. Certainly the church of Christ benefited greatly from the removal of Judaism as a pest.

I think you could argue for the kingdom being in its infancy at Pentecost, but became rooted and fully established only in A.D. 70. The old and the new could not exist side-by-side.

In the Book of Hebrews we see the contrast between what is (at that time) and what is yet to come soon or shortly. Now some Bible scholars believe Hebrews was written in the early A.D. 60's. Now if it was only written then, long after Pentecost, then the fullness of the kingdom was not yet present as it still mentions removing what can still be shaken. The book was written to encourage those Hebrew Christians who were in danger of turning back to Judaism. Thus you see the contrast between the two covenants. The point is that this is way past Pentecost. We still see the old kingdom model at work with priests, sacrifices and offerings. There is this constant contrast between the old and the new, better covenant, between Christ's sacrifice and their sacrifices, between Christ's mediation and their mediation, between Moses as a faithful servant in God's household and Christ as a faithful Son, between Moses taking them into the physical Promised Land and Christ, the Second Moses taking us into the new and better Promised Land - the heavenly kingdom, between the old Mount Sinai where the Old Covenant/law began and the New Mount Zion where the New Covenant begins, between the earthly Jerusalem and the heavenly Jerusalem, between what can be shaken and what cannot be shaken. It says in Hebrews 12:27-28,

The words "once more" indicate the removal of what can be shaken - that is, created things - so that what cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful and worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,..."

I believe the last vestiges of the old were only removed in A.D. 70. We no longer have OT Israel because we no longer have the OT sacrificial system, priesthood, animal sacrifices, genealogies, city or temple. They are no longer needed in order for one to be right with God. They were always a temporary thing, the reality being Christ. (Galatians 4:21-31) That was all destroyed in A.D. 70 and not before. I believe that when God brought judgment upon this people the church became the new Israel of God, the spiritual people of God. His kingdom came.

When Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 that not one jot or title of the law would be abolished until everything was accomplished that included the judgment upon this nation for its apostasy under the law of Moses, for continually breaking the covenant it agreed to follow with God in Deuteronomy 28-32. They agreed to follow and be obedient to God in order to receive His blessings. Well, in A.D. 70 it was the final straw.

The law was given to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:19-25) but now we are no longer under the law, but under grace (Hebrews 10:1).

"The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming - not the realities themselves."

This law was still in effect until A.D. 70.

I believe it was not until A.d. 70 that the kingdom was fully established, when the kingdoms of this earth became the kingdoms of the Lord. It had to be during the time of the Roman kingdom that God would set up His eternal kingdom that would never perish (see Daniel 2:44)

Jesus first had to come in power and glory with His angels before the kingdom would be established. If you want to see the argument for this assertion then please read the following link:

http://www.eschatology.org...

Peter
1Devilsadvocate
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5/30/2013 10:34:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 4:59:48 PM, AlbinoBunny wrote:
Couldn't God have gotten us to write a more entertaining book, it's such a dry read. How does anyone even read a single page?

I've heard the same said about Shakspeare, and every other great writing.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
PGA
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5/30/2013 10:40:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 8:33:36 PM, Fruitytree wrote:
Jews are not abandoned, and they are still accountable to God and although he was angry with them many times, he still expects them to stick to the laws he gave them.

But before Jesus is back, the anti-Christ will come, and the I think the jews don't have knowledge about him in their scriptures. a Lot of them will follow him, and whoever follows him has lost.

Jesus will come after him and will kill him, then the remaining Jews, the Christians and the Muslims will all be brothers , will all believe in Jesus who will be their king, for until the time is up.

Hi Fruitytree,

How can they (the OT Jews)? They don't exist any more. How do they make atonement for their sins? The law required an animal sacrifice. It required bringing that sacrifice to the priest and then he taking it before the alter. Where do you see this happening today?

Jesus came to OT Israel. He came to save His people, to make atonement for their sins by offering Himself as the sacrifice, to bring in an everlasting righteousness by meeting all God's righteous requirements, and He came to bring judgment on apostate Israel, on those who would not accept His kingdom and His kingship. What is more He entered a better tabernacle than what was present on earth in order to appear before God for man.

What was the covenant that God made with Israel in Deuteronomy? I think it was the Old Covenant. Did not Jesus die to put an end to the covenant of works? Did He not die to bring in everlasting righteousness for those who believe? Did He accomplish what He set out to do?

Concerning the anti-Christ, did not John address the issue to those brothers back in the 1st century?

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us..." - 1 John 2:18-19a

Please notice the highlighted tenses and the pronouns (i.e. present tense), applying to those at that time. So who is the Scripture addressing and and when?

Peter
annanicole
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5/30/2013 10:53:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
PGA: "I think you could argue for the kingdom being in its infancy at Pentecost,"

Anna: Yep

PGA: but became rooted and fully established only in A.D. 70. The old and the new could not exist side-by-side.

Anna: That's just it: it was rooted, organized, and "fully established" with tens of thousands of members all over the then-known world ... before A. D. 70.
The siege and destruction of Jerusalem did was: remove the (by-far) major consistent source of hindrance ... resistance ... persecution against Christianity. The old didn't "exist" as far as being pleasing to God.

PGA: Of the OT sacrificial system, priesthood, animal sacrifices, genealogies, city or temple, you say, "They are no longer needed in order for one to be right with God."

Anna: At what point exactly did they become "no longer needed"?

PGA: "This law was still in effect until A.D. 70."

Anna: Still in effect ... how? Was not the religion of the Law nailed to the cross ... taken away ... blotted out ... at the cross? Is it not true that what was in effect from about AD 33 until AD 70 was simply the Jewish civil state?
Nur-Ab-Sal
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5/30/2013 11:02:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/30/2013 3:17:55 PM, philochristos wrote:
At 5/30/2013 10:17:46 AM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 5/30/2013 7:04:54 AM, philochristos wrote:
If I can't read and understand the Bible on my own, then how can I decide which of these organizations is right?

Reasonable exegesis?

So I can read and understand the Bible on my own?

If I told you that we ought to interpret Scripture the Church's way, and we ought to trust the Church's way because of Scripture, that'd obviously be circular. The way I see it is this -- we interpret Scripture reasonably, which leads us to trusting the Church Christ set up for us in the Book of Matthew, which also has historical support for me (an unbroken papal chain).

So no, it's not like you should read and understand the Bible exclusively on your own without the Church. But you can't just assume the Church's authority either -- that needs to be justified. So, I'd just read through the Bible, interpret the text reasonably, and if you're doing it right, you ought to find that Christ set up a pretty solid body to continue his work, which justifies the Church's spiritual authority over other matter. And if you need other support, you can look to historical evidence such as the papal lineage I mentioned above.

But what do I know, man?
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

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