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Prayer

clingard86
Posts: 27
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7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

These are serious inquiries, not meant to offend but to seriously understand what is being taught or generally conceded in the religious sphere.

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:
-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements
-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter)
-You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/28/2018 5:33:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Because prayer is not about just asking for things, it's a conscious method of connecting with the Divine and it can also be for the purposes of edification and elevating ones spirit.
God's plans don't involve controlling people like puppets, The Creators plan for the soul is that the soul learns to distinguish between the carnal self and the spiritual self and it does this through embodiments and experiences and the soul has its own will to choose and act. The soul can manipulate the material realm in some cases and in some ways but it's rare to find in this world.

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

When I had a more immature understanding of what and who the Creator is I used to think God could change His mind, according to Biblical scripture it's possible. But then, do we really know what God's mind is set to do lol? unless we are mind readers how do we know what this supposed plan is? perhaps His plan is our plan they are one and the same. When I pray, I always pray with the most sincere and best intentions no matter what I'm doing in prayer. It's also a personal outlet as we can store up spiritual energies and it is good to be able to channel that into something beautiful and positive, are you aware even the activity of consciousness and though create energy? so it's always good to send someone positive energies no matter what so prayer is a win win situation.

Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

That sounds strange to me, could you rephrase that?

These are serious inquiries, not meant to offend but to seriously understand what is being taught or generally conceded in the religious sphere.

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:
-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements
-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter)
-You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)
clingard86
Posts: 27
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7/28/2018 5:44:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 5:33:48 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Because prayer is not about just asking for things, it's a conscious method of connecting with the Divine and it can also be for the purposes of edification and elevating ones spirit.
God's plans don't involve controlling people like puppets, The Creators plan for the soul is that the soul learns to distinguish between the carnal self and the spiritual self and it does this through embodiments and experiences and the soul has its own will to choose and act. The soul can manipulate the material realm in some cases and in some ways but it's rare to find in this world.

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

When I had a more immature understanding of what and who the Creator is I used to think God could change His mind, according to Biblical scripture it's possible. But then, do we really know what God's mind is set to do lol? unless we are mind readers how do we know what this supposed plan is? perhaps His plan is our plan they are one and the same. When I pray, I always pray with the most sincere and best intentions no matter what I'm doing in prayer. It's also a personal outlet as we can store up spiritual energies and it is good to be able to channel that into something beautiful and positive, are you aware even the activity of consciousness and though create energy? so it's always good to send someone positive energies no matter what so prayer is a win win situation.


Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

That sounds strange to me, could you rephrase that?

Thank you for your civil and honest response.

I meant: say you prayed for a promotion, because you were expecting a child but there was someone who was hoping for the same promotion-is there biblical reference as to how god would assign value so as to decide who gets the promotion?

Then with regard to god changing his mind, it seems as though you say his plan is set and all you can hope for is that your sincere wish coincides with his plan-have i understood that correctly?
ThinkFirst
Posts: 2,448
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7/28/2018 6:19:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Because they haven't the good sense to work out the contradiction.

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

Yes, if it benefits them, in some way.

Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

They certainly hope so.

These are serious inquiries, not meant to offend but to seriously understand what is being taught or generally conceded in the religious sphere.

It's perfectly acceptable for gawd to turn his attention away from the truly faithful mothers in third world nations who are fervently praying for their children to survive the night in order for a professional football player to score a touchdown... Remember, folks: Every time a pro football player scores a touchdown, gawd allows a baby to die of malnutrition.

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

No, they won't... Matthew 24:14 and Matthew 28:18-20 command them to go out and try to convert EVERYONE to their stunted "thought" process.

How to know if you are a fucktard:
-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements

Liberty University? I didn't realize it was so expensive. Then, again, since religion is nothing but a glorified (and tax-free) industry, it should not be a surprise.

-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter)

I wouldn't generally take it that far...

-You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)

The ones on their shoulders are just the ones that are visible. There are more.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
ethang5
Posts: 19,262
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7/28/2018 6:28:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

These are serious inquiries, not meant to offend but to seriously understand what is being taught or generally conceded in the religious sphere.

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:
-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements
-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter)
-You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)

One week old account. Bids on whose sock puppet this is.
ThinkFirst
Posts: 2,448
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7/28/2018 8:42:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

These are serious inquiries, not meant to offend but to seriously understand what is being taught or generally conceded in the religious sphere.

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:
-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements
-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter)
-You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)

I see your post has already attracted the accusation that you are someone's 'sock puppet...' Very few honest inquiries go unpunished, in this forum; Especially once the ever-presumputous are given to even the slightest inclination that you reject their beliefs, there will be no end to presumptions made as to your motivations, your morals, ethics and other (completely unrelated) beliefs.
"Never attribute to villainy that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
-----
"Men rarely if ever dream up a god superior to themselves. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child. "

-- Robert A Heinlein
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/28/2018 10:18:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 5:44:26 PM, clingard86 wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:33:48 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Because prayer is not about just asking for things, it's a conscious method of connecting with the Divine and it can also be for the purposes of edification and elevating ones spirit.
God's plans don't involve controlling people like puppets, The Creators plan for the soul is that the soul learns to distinguish between the carnal self and the spiritual self and it does this through embodiments and experiences and the soul has its own will to choose and act. The soul can manipulate the material realm in some cases and in some ways but it's rare to find in this world.

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

When I had a more immature understanding of what and who the Creator is I used to think God could change His mind, according to Biblical scripture it's possible. But then, do we really know what God's mind is set to do lol? unless we are mind readers how do we know what this supposed plan is? perhaps His plan is our plan they are one and the same. When I pray, I always pray with the most sincere and best intentions no matter what I'm doing in prayer. It's also a personal outlet as we can store up spiritual energies and it is good to be able to channel that into something beautiful and positive, are you aware even the activity of consciousness and though create energy? so it's always good to send someone positive energies no matter what so prayer is a win win situation.


Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

That sounds strange to me, could you rephrase that?

Thank you for your civil and honest response.


I meant: say you prayed for a promotion, because you were expecting a child but there was someone who was hoping for the same promotion-is there biblical reference as to how god would assign value so as to decide who gets the promotion?

In my opinion God does not hang around answering prayers and not answering them, perhaps I should have made that clear before...."God" in this context will be interchangeable with "laws". Most of our successes and failures work within a matrix of spiritual laws and principles. Generally speaking, spiritual tools are principle driven which makes this somewhat an impersonal event in that the laws and matrix of principles are the relationship the soul experiences implementing them and whether or not a person is spiritually successful or fruitful. Faith is the same way, it is a trust confidence relationship and it's an individual application and is dependent upon the soul not God. This makes the success of faith and prayer based upon the individual, not God. Again this is principle oriented not personal, the soul learns through trial and error...practice makes perfect.
To answer the question if I haven't already, I don't think God would be making that decision. Each soul comes out of the heart of God and each soul is unique and special but in creation we build our own circumstances, whether it's failure or success.

Then with regard to god changing his mind, it seems as though you say his plan is set and all you can hope for is that your sincere wish coincides with his plan-have i understood that correctly?
This is a more involved question and so I'll have to expand on some things here first so get out the pillow lol!
There is a plan and purpose for the soul on a higher conscious level, but the soul has to wake up to that reality, otherwise they run the rat race where there really is no "plan" other than what the lower divisions of creation transpire and plan and what the individual wants to experience, there are higher plans interventions and prophecies but they happen regardless of what's going on in the rat race, they take place above it. There's two things going on here in our experience on this earth in this realm, we can call them the "inner" and "outer" experiences, the outer experience is what you probably are accustomed to which is relevant to the material physical world where the soul makes its own plans and builds it's own future by its own will and this happens within a restricted boundary the soul operates in. The inner experiences are the soul based spiritual type, these are the inward, higher conscious levels of awareness and knowing and as the soul cultivates to that point that is where they will find this divine "plan" or higher calling that becomes relevant and a reality for the soul. Once the soul wakes up from the game play in this material construct it begins its spiritual journey and progresses. So when you mention God's "plan" we should consider not everything is a plan on every level of experience and so not everything is "set" rather the lower worlds are a sifting grounds or determining grounds of what the fate of the soul will be through their own choices. Man has his own will and things happen in this realm based upon that factor.

When the soul reaches this point at a higher level of operation the souls faith may act in accordance with what it chooses, but the soul is now in harmony with that of the Creator so in essence Gods plan and souls plan are one and the same and there is no distinction. When the soul is operating at a low level and only through the material perception there is no "Gods" plan, it's just a waiting game for the soul to wake up to its higher calling. So to answer the question it's both, I hope that my wishes are in harmony with what is best and I'm also aware that I can influence this material realm through energy fields and by channeling faith, which is generated power. But a mature spiritualist doesn't just channel energy at anything and will only serve to destroy the physical body, it's done at a higher conscious level where the mind and emotions are no longer an influence but the channeling of energy is Divine and not carnal. Not everything needs to be tampered with, soul are here to learn and to wake up.
Sorry man I'm sure that's somewhat confusing but I'm tired forgive me....
clingard86
Posts: 27
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7/29/2018 1:10:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 10:18:56 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:44:26 PM, clingard86 wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:33:48 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Because prayer is not about just asking for things, it's a conscious method of connecting with the Divine and it can also be for the purposes of edification and elevating ones spirit.
God's plans don't involve controlling people like puppets, The Creators plan for the soul is that the soul learns to distinguish between the carnal self and the spiritual self and it does this through embodiments and experiences and the soul has its own will to choose and act. The soul can manipulate the material realm in some cases and in some ways but it's rare to find in this world.

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

When I had a more immature understanding of what and who the Creator is I used to think God could change His mind, according to Biblical scripture it's possible. But then, do we really know what God's mind is set to do lol? unless we are mind readers how do we know what this supposed plan is? perhaps His plan is our plan they are one and the same. When I pray, I always pray with the most sincere and best intentions no matter what I'm doing in prayer. It's also a personal outlet as we can store up spiritual energies and it is good to be able to channel that into something beautiful and positive, are you aware even the activity of consciousness and though create energy? so it's always good to send someone positive energies no matter what so prayer is a win win situation.


Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

That sounds strange to me, could you rephrase that?

Thank you for your civil and honest response.


I meant: say you prayed for a promotion, because you were expecting a child but there was someone who was hoping for the same promotion-is there biblical reference as to how god would assign value so as to decide who gets the promotion?

In my opinion God does not hang around answering prayers and not answering them, perhaps I should have made that clear before...."God" in this context will be interchangeable with "laws". Most of our successes and failures work within a matrix of spiritual laws and principles. Generally speaking, spiritual tools are principle driven which makes this somewhat an impersonal event in that the laws and matrix of principles are the relationship the soul experiences implementing them and whether or not a person is spiritually successful or fruitful. Faith is the same way, it is a trust confidence relationship and it's an individual application and is dependent upon the soul not God. This makes the success of faith and prayer based upon the individual, not God. Again this is principle oriented not personal, the soul learns through trial and error...practice makes perfect.
To answer the question if I haven't already, I don't think God would be making that decision. Each soul comes out of the heart of God and each soul is unique and special but in creation we build our own circumstances, whether it's failure or success.

Then with regard to god changing his mind, it seems as though you say his plan is set and all you can hope for is that your sincere wish coincides with his plan-have i understood that correctly?
This is a more involved question and so I'll have to expand on some things here first so get out the pillow lol!
There is a plan and purpose for the soul on a higher conscious level, but the soul has to wake up to that reality, otherwise they run the rat race where there really is no "plan" other than what the lower divisions of creation transpire and plan and what the individual wants to experience, there are higher plans interventions and prophecies but they happen regardless of what's going on in the rat race, they take place above it. There's two things going on here in our experience on this earth in this realm, we can call them the "inner" and "outer" experiences, the outer experience is what you probably are accustomed to which is relevant to the material physical world where the soul makes its own plans and builds it's own future by its own will and this happens within a restricted boundary the soul operates in. The inner experiences are the soul based spiritual type, these are the inward, higher conscious levels of awareness and knowing and as the soul cultivates to that point that is where they will find this divine "plan" or higher calling that becomes relevant and a reality for the soul. Once the soul wakes up from the game play in this material construct it begins its spiritual journey and progresses. So when you mention God's "plan" we should consider not everything is a plan on every level of experience and so not everything is "set" rather the lower worlds are a sifting grounds or determining grounds of what the fate of the soul will be through their own choices. Man has his own will and things happen in this realm based upon that factor.

When the soul reaches this point at a higher level of operation the souls faith may act in accordance with what it chooses, but the soul is now in harmony with that of the Creator so in essence Gods plan and souls plan are one and the same and there is no distinction. When the soul is operating at a low level and only through the material perception there is no "Gods" plan, it's just a waiting game for the soul to wake up to its higher calling. So to answer the question it's both, I hope that my wishes are in harmony with what is best and I'm also aware that I can influence this material realm through energy fields and by channeling faith, which is generated power. But a mature spiritualist doesn't just channel energy at anything and will only serve to destroy the physical body, it's done at a higher conscious level where the mind and emotions are no longer an influence but the channeling of energy is Divine and not carnal. Not everything needs to be tampered with, soul are here to learn and to wake up.
Sorry man I'm sure that's somewhat confusing but I'm tired forgive me....

No worries and thanks
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/29/2018 1:51:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 1:10:27 PM, clingard86 wrote:
At 7/28/2018 10:18:56 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:44:26 PM, clingard86 wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:33:48 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Because prayer is not about just asking for things, it's a conscious method of connecting with the Divine and it can also be for the purposes of edification and elevating ones spirit.
God's plans don't involve controlling people like puppets, The Creators plan for the soul is that the soul learns to distinguish between the carnal self and the spiritual self and it does this through embodiments and experiences and the soul has its own will to choose and act. The soul can manipulate the material realm in some cases and in some ways but it's rare to find in this world.

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

When I had a more immature understanding of what and who the Creator is I used to think God could change His mind, according to Biblical scripture it's possible. But then, do we really know what God's mind is set to do lol? unless we are mind readers how do we know what this supposed plan is? perhaps His plan is our plan they are one and the same. When I pray, I always pray with the most sincere and best intentions no matter what I'm doing in prayer. It's also a personal outlet as we can store up spiritual energies and it is good to be able to channel that into something beautiful and positive, are you aware even the activity of consciousness and though create energy? so it's always good to send someone positive energies no matter what so prayer is a win win situation.


Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

That sounds strange to me, could you rephrase that?

Thank you for your civil and honest response.


I meant: say you prayed for a promotion, because you were expecting a child but there was someone who was hoping for the same promotion-is there biblical reference as to how god would assign value so as to decide who gets the promotion?

In my opinion God does not hang around answering prayers and not answering them, perhaps I should have made that clear before...."God" in this context will be interchangeable with "laws". Most of our successes and failures work within a matrix of spiritual laws and principles. Generally speaking, spiritual tools are principle driven which makes this somewhat an impersonal event in that the laws and matrix of principles are the relationship the soul experiences implementing them and whether or not a person is spiritually successful or fruitful. Faith is the same way, it is a trust confidence relationship and it's an individual application and is dependent upon the soul not God. This makes the success of faith and prayer based upon the individual, not God. Again this is principle oriented not personal, the soul learns through trial and error...practice makes perfect.
To answer the question if I haven't already, I don't think God would be making that decision. Each soul comes out of the heart of God and each soul is unique and special but in creation we build our own circumstances, whether it's failure or success.

Then with regard to god changing his mind, it seems as though you say his plan is set and all you can hope for is that your sincere wish coincides with his plan-have i understood that correctly?
This is a more involved question and so I'll have to expand on some things here first so get out the pillow lol!
There is a plan and purpose for the soul on a higher conscious level, but the soul has to wake up to that reality, otherwise they run the rat race where there really is no "plan" other than what the lower divisions of creation transpire and plan and what the individual wants to experience, there are higher plans interventions and prophecies but they happen regardless of what's going on in the rat race, they take place above it. There's two things going on here in our experience on this earth in this realm, we can call them the "inner" and "outer" experiences, the outer experience is what you probably are accustomed to which is relevant to the material physical world where the soul makes its own plans and builds it's own future by its own will and this happens within a restricted boundary the soul operates in. The inner experiences are the soul based spiritual type, these are the inward, higher conscious levels of awareness and knowing and as the soul cultivates to that point that is where they will find this divine "plan" or higher calling that becomes relevant and a reality for the soul. Once the soul wakes up from the game play in this material construct it begins its spiritual journey and progresses. So when you mention God's "plan" we should consider not everything is a plan on every level of experience and so not everything is "set" rather the lower worlds are a sifting grounds or determining grounds of what the fate of the soul will be through their own choices. Man has his own will and things happen in this realm based upon that factor.

When the soul reaches this point at a higher level of operation the souls faith may act in accordance with what it chooses, but the soul is now in harmony with that of the Creator so in essence Gods plan and souls plan are one and the same and there is no distinction. When the soul is operating at a low level and only through the material perception there is no "Gods" plan, it's just a waiting game for the soul to wake up to its higher calling. So to answer the question it's both, I hope that my wishes are in harmony with what is best and I'm also aware that I can influence this material realm through energy fields and by channeling faith, which is generated power. But a mature spiritualist doesn't just channel energy at anything and will only serve to destroy the physical body, it's done at a higher conscious level where the mind and emotions are no longer an influence but the channeling of energy is Divine and not carnal. Not everything needs to be tampered with, soul are here to learn and to wake up.
Sorry man I'm sure that's somewhat confusing but I'm tired forgive me....

No worries and thanks
If you're not used to all this spiritual stuff, living it and observing it, it might seem a bit unusual but the reality of Theism and spirituality are quite complex and we're dealing with something that has no beginning or end. So when discussing the dynamics of such a vast and eternal phenomenon it can get complicated depending on the subject matter and it doesn't help matters that there are multiple realms or universes beyond this one and each with countless galaxies, planets and all types of beings and forms. As well spirituality can be quite simplistic because truth should be simple as well, it's just there's a lot to it like a complex web of knowledge and experiences so please ask me and I can expand on anything I wrote.
The reason why prayer is a more challenging topic is because we are dealing with two realities that are colliding both depending on one another.
clingard86
Posts: 27
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7/29/2018 2:06:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thank you for the offer. I found your response quite interesting, more esoteric than I would have expected. But that is the thing with asking questions to which you think you already know the answers to, or that you believe you can anticipate- someone may surprise you.

Your thoughts on channeling and concentrating faith/energy are quite interesting. And although it is grounded in deism, there does appear to be a level of independence in your thought process, and I dare say something like this can be embraced in a secular way.

But as to reasons why you would veto god, I still think we have a disconnect there. I don't think, even as an atheist, that prayer is useless-it does have the capability of offering comfort or channeling energies and focus, which is what I think you were saying but at the end of the day, the way is set and you need to hope and pray that you dodge the open manhole covers-or phrased another way: the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/29/2018 2:42:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 2:06:37 PM, clingard86 wrote:
Thank you for the offer. I found your response quite interesting, more esoteric than I would have expected. But that is the thing with asking questions to which you think you already know the answers to, or that you believe you can anticipate- someone may surprise you.

Your thoughts on channeling and concentrating faith/energy are quite interesting. And although it is grounded in deism, there does appear to be a level of independence in your thought process, and I dare say something like this can be embraced in a secular way.

But as to reasons why you would veto god, I still think we have a disconnect there. I don't think, even as an atheist, that prayer is useless-it does have the capability of offering comfort or channeling energies and focus, which is what I think you were saying but at the end of the day, the way is set and you need to hope and pray that you dodge the open manhole covers-or phrased another way: the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
If I suggested prayer is useless my apologies actually I was attempting to express the opposite. Maybe when I said its impersonal you thought I meant useless but not so. I just meant people have this idea that God is sitting around answering some prayers and not others that is absurd. Rather the relationship between soul and success is tied to the matrix of laws and principles and so the favoritism of the idea that God does answer some prayers and not others is not an issue. Just like the natural laws and laws in general, they don't change from person to person the laws are consistent, impersonal and only work in one direction. So when people don't get results from prayer or faith they need not think the Creator dismisses them, rather it's an opportunity to adjust something because prayer and faith won't work if other things are not lined up and I'll give you an example....say there is a person who has a major trial or problem in their circumstances and they begin to pray with all their might and try and put faith into their prayers but, earlier that week that same person smacked their kid around, or stole something or has a problem with lying ect ect that person will not have success while their are other principles unmet and avoided. That's kind of what I mean by a complex web of laws and principles.

I'm not actually vetoing God because the very laws and principles that exist were established by God which is why I said God the law are interchangeable here in this context. Because while the laws are impersonal, they were established by a personal reality.

I agree and as I pointed out in my original post prayer can be used as a form of edification, and the channeling of faith is a beautiful thing especially with the force of love behind it. Faith is universal, but it as well has a lower function and a much higher function either way faith is an action. It makes me nuts people want to believe in a useless faith! faith is grounded in knowing, which comes through experience and so faith is a cultivation not an excuse to accept things with no evidence that is contrary to the role faith play in spirituality.
21stCenturyIconoclast
Posts: 670
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7/29/2018 4:32:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 2:42:58 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/29/2018 2:06:37 PM, clingard86 wrote:
Thank you for the offer. I found your response quite interesting, more esoteric than I would have expected. But that is the thing with asking questions to which you think you already know the answers to, or that you believe you can anticipate- someone may surprise you.

Your thoughts on channeling and concentrating faith/energy are quite interesting. And although it is grounded in deism, there does appear to be a level of independence in your thought process, and I dare say something like this can be embraced in a secular way.

But as to reasons why you would veto god, I still think we have a disconnect there. I don't think, even as an atheist, that prayer is useless-it does have the capability of offering comfort or channeling energies and focus, which is what I think you were saying but at the end of the day, the way is set and you need to hope and pray that you dodge the open manhole covers-or phrased another way: the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
If I suggested prayer is useless my apologies actually I was attempting to express the opposite. Maybe when I said its impersonal you thought I meant useless but not so. I just meant people have this idea that God is sitting around answering some prayers and not others that is absurd. Rather the relationship between soul and success is tied to the matrix of laws and principles and so the favoritism of the idea that God does answer some prayers and not others is not an issue. Just like the natural laws and laws in general, they don't change from person to person the laws are consistent, impersonal and only work in one direction. So when people don't get results from prayer or faith they need not think the Creator dismisses them, rather it's an opportunity to adjust something because prayer and faith won't work if other things are not lined up and I'll give you an example....say there is a person who has a major trial or problem in their circumstances and they begin to pray with all their might and try and put faith into their prayers but, earlier that week that same person smacked their kid around, or stole something or has a problem with lying ect ect that person will not have success while their are other principles unmet and avoided. That's kind of what I mean by a complex web of laws and principles.

I'm not actually vetoing God because the very laws and principles that exist were established by God which is why I said God the law are interchangeable here in this context. Because while the laws are impersonal, they were established by a personal reality.

I agree and as I pointed out in my original post prayer can be used as a form of edification, and the channeling of faith is a beautiful thing especially with the force of love behind it. Faith is universal, but it as well has a lower function and a much higher function either way faith is an action. It makes me nuts people want to believe in a useless faith! faith is grounded in knowing, which comes through experience and so faith is a cultivation not an excuse to accept things with no evidence that is contrary to the role faith play in spirituality.

________________________________

EtrnlVw,

YOUR QUOTE: If I suggested prayer is useless my apologies actually I was attempting to express the opposite."

You are most certainly correct, if you have to lower your IQ and believe in God. For example, when Allah spoke directly to Moses, He said, "And I have chosen you, so listen to that which is inspired to you. Verily, I am Allah! There is none worthy of worship but I, so worship Me and offer prayer perfectly for My remembrance." [Taha 13-14]

I am sure that you follow the passage above relating to worshiping Allah, therefore, you are in accordance of his remembrance. Besides, those who learn and read your Quran on a regular basis are familiar with the importance of prayer and how strongly Allah Almighty has emphasized it and explained its importance to the people in the Quran.

EtrnlVw, as you are aware, a Muslim must realize that above anything, prayer is an obligation and every Muslim has to fulfill his or her obligation, therefore, good for you in bringing this topic of Allah and prayer herewith for enlightenment to others.

________________
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/29/2018 5:12:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 4:32:15 PM, 21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
At 7/29/2018 2:42:58 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/29/2018 2:06:37 PM, clingard86 wrote:
Thank you for the offer. I found your response quite interesting, more esoteric than I would have expected. But that is the thing with asking questions to which you think you already know the answers to, or that you believe you can anticipate- someone may surprise you.

Your thoughts on channeling and concentrating faith/energy are quite interesting. And although it is grounded in deism, there does appear to be a level of independence in your thought process, and I dare say something like this can be embraced in a secular way.

But as to reasons why you would veto god, I still think we have a disconnect there. I don't think, even as an atheist, that prayer is useless-it does have the capability of offering comfort or channeling energies and focus, which is what I think you were saying but at the end of the day, the way is set and you need to hope and pray that you dodge the open manhole covers-or phrased another way: the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
If I suggested prayer is useless my apologies actually I was attempting to express the opposite. Maybe when I said its impersonal you thought I meant useless but not so. I just meant people have this idea that God is sitting around answering some prayers and not others that is absurd. Rather the relationship between soul and success is tied to the matrix of laws and principles and so the favoritism of the idea that God does answer some prayers and not others is not an issue. Just like the natural laws and laws in general, they don't change from person to person the laws are consistent, impersonal and only work in one direction. So when people don't get results from prayer or faith they need not think the Creator dismisses them, rather it's an opportunity to adjust something because prayer and faith won't work if other things are not lined up and I'll give you an example....say there is a person who has a major trial or problem in their circumstances and they begin to pray with all their might and try and put faith into their prayers but, earlier that week that same person smacked their kid around, or stole something or has a problem with lying ect ect that person will not have success while their are other principles unmet and avoided. That's kind of what I mean by a complex web of laws and principles.

I'm not actually vetoing God because the very laws and principles that exist were established by God which is why I said God the law are interchangeable here in this context. Because while the laws are impersonal, they were established by a personal reality.

I agree and as I pointed out in my original post prayer can be used as a form of edification, and the channeling of faith is a beautiful thing especially with the force of love behind it. Faith is universal, but it as well has a lower function and a much higher function either way faith is an action. It makes me nuts people want to believe in a useless faith! faith is grounded in knowing, which comes through experience and so faith is a cultivation not an excuse to accept things with no evidence that is contrary to the role faith play in spirituality.

________________________________

EtrnlVw,

YOUR QUOTE: If I suggested prayer is useless my apologies actually I was attempting to express the opposite."

You are most certainly correct, if you have to lower your IQ and believe in God. For example, when Allah spoke directly to Moses, He said, "And I have chosen you, so listen to that which is inspired to you. Verily, I am Allah! There is none worthy of worship but I, so worship Me and offer prayer perfectly for My remembrance." [Taha 13-14]

I am sure that you follow the passage above relating to worshiping Allah, therefore, you are in accordance of his remembrance. Besides, those who learn and read your Quran on a regular basis are familiar with the importance of prayer and how strongly Allah Almighty has emphasized it and explained its importance to the people in the Quran.

EtrnlVw, as you are aware, a Muslim must realize that above anything, prayer is an obligation and every Muslim has to fulfill his or her obligation, therefore, good for you in bringing this topic of Allah and prayer herewith for enlightenment to others.


________________
Let me know if you ever have anything relevant to say. I would start with learning how to write a coherent paragraph, one that follows what is being discussed. Let me know if you have any questions. If you want to be antagonistic you've come to the wrong door.
21stCenturyIconoclast
Posts: 670
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7/29/2018 5:42:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 5:12:54 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/29/2018 4:32:15 PM, 21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
At 7/29/2018 2:42:58 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/29/2018 2:06:37 PM, clingard86 wrote:
Thank you for the offer. I found your response quite interesting, more esoteric than I would have expected. But that is the thing with asking questions to which you think you already know the answers to, or that you believe you can anticipate- someone may surprise you.

Your thoughts on channeling and concentrating faith/energy are quite interesting. And although it is grounded in deism, there does appear to be a level of independence in your thought process, and I dare say something like this can be embraced in a secular way.

But as to reasons why you would veto god, I still think we have a disconnect there. I don't think, even as an atheist, that prayer is useless-it does have the capability of offering comfort or channeling energies and focus, which is what I think you were saying but at the end of the day, the way is set and you need to hope and pray that you dodge the open manhole covers-or phrased another way: the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike.
If I suggested prayer is useless my apologies actually I was attempting to express the opposite. Maybe when I said its impersonal you thought I meant useless but not so. I just meant people have this idea that God is sitting around answering some prayers and not others that is absurd. Rather the relationship between soul and success is tied to the matrix of laws and principles and so the favoritism of the idea that God does answer some prayers and not others is not an issue. Just like the natural laws and laws in general, they don't change from person to person the laws are consistent, impersonal and only work in one direction. So when people don't get results from prayer or faith they need not think the Creator dismisses them, rather it's an opportunity to adjust something because prayer and faith won't work if other things are not lined up and I'll give you an example....say there is a person who has a major trial or problem in their circumstances and they begin to pray with all their might and try and put faith into their prayers but, earlier that week that same person smacked their kid around, or stole something or has a problem with lying ect ect that person will not have success while their are other principles unmet and avoided. That's kind of what I mean by a complex web of laws and principles.

I'm not actually vetoing God because the very laws and principles that exist were established by God which is why I said God the law are interchangeable here in this context. Because while the laws are impersonal, they were established by a personal reality.

I agree and as I pointed out in my original post prayer can be used as a form of edification, and the channeling of faith is a beautiful thing especially with the force of love behind it. Faith is universal, but it as well has a lower function and a much higher function either way faith is an action. It makes me nuts people want to believe in a useless faith! faith is grounded in knowing, which comes through experience and so faith is a cultivation not an excuse to accept things with no evidence that is contrary to the role faith play in spirituality.

________________________________

EtrnlVw,

YOUR QUOTE: If I suggested prayer is useless my apologies actually I was attempting to express the opposite."

You are most certainly correct, if you have to lower your IQ and believe in God. For example, when Allah spoke directly to Moses, He said, "And I have chosen you, so listen to that which is inspired to you. Verily, I am Allah! There is none worthy of worship but I, so worship Me and offer prayer perfectly for My remembrance." [Taha 13-14]

I am sure that you follow the passage above relating to worshiping Allah, therefore, you are in accordance of his remembrance. Besides, those who learn and read your Quran on a regular basis are familiar with the importance of prayer and how strongly Allah Almighty has emphasized it and explained its importance to the people in the Quran.

EtrnlVw, as you are aware, a Muslim must realize that above anything, prayer is an obligation and every Muslim has to fulfill his or her obligation, therefore, good for you in bringing this topic of Allah and prayer herewith for enlightenment to others.


________________
Let me know if you ever have anything relevant to say. I would start with learning how to write a coherent paragraph, one that follows what is being discussed. Let me know if you have any questions. If you want to be antagonistic you've come to the wrong door.

___________________________

EtrnlVw ,

The relevancy was the act of insipid prayer, and the fact of a god concept behind it, whereas your complete ineptness doesn't allow you to comprehend this simple fact.

Furthermore, you get the gist of my statements, but again, you are to embarrassed to address them other than to RUN AWAY from them once again in shame regarding your pagan beliefs. What's new? NOTHING! LOL

Again, DEBATE.ORG Religion forum attracts the most dumbfounded of the primitive faiths like EtrnlVw has shown!

__________________________
clingard86
Posts: 27
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7/29/2018 6:53:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
No you didn't make the distinction that prayer is useless. That is my bias as I am an atheist.

You do seem to view faith differently than the run of the mill deist. I think faith as you use it is better termed as trust i.e qualified belief-because there exists evidence, for you at least, there is a foundation in belief.

I think generally speaking faith is belief in something that may or may not be but which the evidence for is shaky either way. I saw a whats app status of one of my contacts that read: walk without sight(something along those lines) which if you think clearly about it is rather bad advice practically speaking e.g you wont expect to fly a plane based on faith.

This does provoke an interesting thought as to why some believe and some do not-it is the material v the spiritual, the esoteric v the pragmatic and how you are predisposed to accept one or the other.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/29/2018 7:33:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 6:53:22 PM, clingard86 wrote:
No you didn't make the distinction that prayer is useless. That is my bias as I am an atheist.

Aww that sucks. Would you consider an agnostic position? stick around for awhile I think we can make something useful in discussions.

You do seem to view faith differently than the run of the mill deist. I think faith as you use it is better termed as trust i.e qualified belief-because there exists evidence, for you at least, there is a foundation in belief.

If you read the Gospels where Jesus exemplifies faith as an action, as trust and confidence it's quite clear. To accept things void of reasoning and evidence is a misconception. That's more of a universal idea looking at religion as a whole. But spiritual faith is specifically trust and confidence, its used to produce results. Most people associate faith with beliefs and accepting them blindly, that's actually a misconception of faith and as well beliefs can be accepted through reasons and evidence. One can have religious beliefs and have no faith at all, faith and beliefs are not the same thing though they can overlap.

I think generally speaking faith is belief in something that may or may not be but which the evidence for is shaky either way. I saw a whats app status of one of my contacts that read: walk without sight(something along those lines) which if you think clearly about it is rather bad advice practically speaking e.g you wont expect to fly a plane based on faith.

The statement walk without sight is probably meant "walk by faith not by sight" rather.....it's articulating that not everything we see with our physical eyes is what we should go by in this context and faith is representing another option, again even here it's not void of reason or evidence that doesn't follow. I will admit the term faith can be used in more than one context but faith as a spiritual principle is an action, it's generated energy that can be channeled as we went over so there is more than one usage for the term. There are weak interpretations and strong ones but somewhere down the line someone concocted this false idea that faith means to blindly accept things without any reason or common sense that is completely in error and is not faith at all. So yes you're right my interpretation is not the majority view but I intend on changing that. True spirituality needs to be brought back to the souls in this generation so they have something legit to stand on.

This does provoke an interesting thought as to why some believe and some do not-it is the material v the spiritual, the esoteric v the pragmatic and how you are predisposed to accept one or the other.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/29/2018 7:35:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 6:53:22 PM, clingard86 wrote:
No you didn't make the distinction that prayer is useless. That is my bias as I am an atheist.

You do seem to view faith differently than the run of the mill deist. I think faith as you use it is better termed as trust i.e qualified belief-because there exists evidence, for you at least, there is a foundation in belief.

I think generally speaking faith is belief in something that may or may not be but which the evidence for is shaky either way. I saw a whats app status of one of my contacts that read: walk without sight(something along those lines) which if you think clearly about it is rather bad advice practically speaking e.g you wont expect to fly a plane based on faith.

Actually you would, because again faith is trust and confidence just with a spiritual twist, that's precisely how what faith is so yes, one can develop trust and confidence/faith in flying a plane, as the operator cultivates trust and confidence their faith in it becomes much greater.

This does provoke an interesting thought as to why some believe and some do not-it is the material v the spiritual, the esoteric v the pragmatic and how you are predisposed to accept one or the other.
12_13
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7/29/2018 8:39:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

For example, to thank Him and to give Him permission.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 2:28:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 6:53:22 PM, clingard86 wrote:
I think generally speaking faith is belief in something that may or may not be but which the evidence for is shaky either way. I saw a whats app status of one of my contacts that read: walk without sight(something along those lines) which if you think clearly about it is rather bad advice practically speaking e.g you wont expect to fly a plane based on faith.

If what you meant to say was.....you wouldn't want to LEARN how to fly a plane on faith that would be correct, faith wouldn't even be applicable then, non-existent. Learning to fly would be based on instructions and logistics, then once that was established then faith becomes applicable because confidence has been established. See how that works? that's why its false that faith means to accept blindly, rather faith is based on and cultivated through knowing which comes through experience it's that simple.
edgeofimagination
Posts: 21
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7/30/2018 10:41:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
PRAY ? you mean PREY....the source of sustenance for PREDATORS...

Like Pedophile psychopath PREACHERS of some Christian Church Cult that PRAY to PREY on children they can molest...oh, right other GOD Cults also favor child molesting, mutilation, beating, torturing, and so much more....like the Christians enemy neighbor ALLAH...he wants all that do not accept him .....EXECUTED...and many pray for this to happen....they scream DEATH to the infidel we PRAY....

So what of the other 3-4 billion humans that do not PRAY to the Jesus or Allah Middle East GOD inventions ?

EASY ! the become PREY...all must DIE...for not converting and accepting the only GOD that matters....

So which GOD is the real DEAL ? Jesus...Allah..krishna...Zeus...Batman...Joker ?

So many GODS to PRAY to...so if one GOD does not deliver...dump him and PRAY to another...and when that FAILS go beat up and molest people in his name...maybe he will listen after you exterminate a billion HERETICS or INFIDELS ?

NOW....all fall to the floor and shake like an imbecile (like on TV) and pray like the miserable born SINNER dog scum YOUR church and Mosque have convinced YOU
are....PRAY...PRAY...PRAY your pathetic life away to the Church/Mosque Clown in the Gown...for he is GOD....
Perfection
Posts: 31
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7/30/2018 11:04:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Well God wants people to simply discuss their lives with God. Talk about their hardships & their desires etc. They are told by religion to ask God for all the things they need but God is not an errand boy. God does not do requests. God is not a servant. God watches people as they live their lives & listens to them as they pray. God gives dreams that are symbolic messages & that is the main way God speaks to man & tries to help man. We basically have to fix all the problems of the earth by ourselves, knowing God is watching over us & is pleased with our efforts
21stCenturyIconoclast
Posts: 670
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7/31/2018 4:48:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

These are serious inquiries, not meant to offend but to seriously understand what is being taught or generally conceded in the religious sphere.

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:
-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements
-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter)
-You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)

__________________________________________________


CLINGARD86, within your own thread, are you the "pot" or the "kettle?"


YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE: "The contingent of people that profess that they can not make a point without being insulting, are in error. Plain and simple. The two users that have made all manner of contortions, supplemented by obfuscations, are in error." Bad ideas are defeated by better ideas, not by ridicule. Insult someone and you immediately put them in a corner; crouched in defense. Not one word will pass that barrier in any meaningful way at that point.
http://www.debate.org...
POST #79

^^^^^ !!! HYPOCRISY ALERT !!!! ^^^^

CLINGARD86, with your statement at the bottom of your opening post in this thread regarding prayer, of which you are blatantly ignorant thereof, you embarrassingly are rude to an "alleged" certain faction of DDO by stating the following, to wit:

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter) -You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)


YOUR REVEALING HYPOCRITICAL QUOTE DIRECTED TOWARDS ME: "Once again, a very weak argument to excuse your deplorable decorum. You can make the case you have made against the christian god quite safely but I still fail to connect that with an excuse to be rude to other users."
http://www.debate.org...
POST #81

The irony is that you chastise me for blatantly making fools of theists in a rude and insulting way, but you have no problem with chastising others in the same vein as explicitly shown in your opening post of your own thread! PRICELESS HYPOCRISY!!!

CLINGARD86, YOUR EMBARRASSING HYPOCRISY HAS NO BOUNDS! LOL


.
WAIT! I see that you are still SCARED in your profile page regarding your total MO, so let me help you with this by giving you some perfect examples:

Education: Grade School Hypocrite
Ethnicity: I can be a hypocrite no matter what the ethnicity
Income: When I am a hypocrite, my income doesn"t matter
Occupation: Hypocrite
Religion: Hypocrisy

CLINGARD86, UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, YOU ARE WHO YOU "PRETEND" TO BE! :(

_______________________________________________
21stCenturyIconoclast
Posts: 670
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8/3/2018 7:12:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 4:48:55 PM, 21stCenturyIconoclast wrote:
At 7/28/2018 4:47:16 PM, clingard86 wrote:
If gods has a plan, and his will is final, why do people still pray?

Do religious people believe that god will change his mind because you ask him to?

Would he give you something, if that meant taking away from another?

These are serious inquiries, not meant to offend but to seriously understand what is being taught or generally conceded in the religious sphere.

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:
-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements
-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter)
-You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)


__________________________________________________


CLINGARD86, within your own thread, are you the "pot" or the "kettle?"


YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE: "The contingent of people that profess that they can not make a point without being insulting, are in error. Plain and simple. The two users that have made all manner of contortions, supplemented by obfuscations, are in error." Bad ideas are defeated by better ideas, not by ridicule. Insult someone and you immediately put them in a corner; crouched in defense. Not one word will pass that barrier in any meaningful way at that point.
http://www.debate.org...
POST #79

^^^^^ !!! HYPOCRISY ALERT !!!! ^^^^

CLINGARD86, with your statement at the bottom of your opening post in this thread regarding prayer, of which you are blatantly ignorant thereof, you embarrassingly are rude to an "alleged" certain faction of DDO by stating the following, to wit:

SO... please would the fucktards stay away.

How to know if you are a fucktard:-you pretend your education and how much you paid for it makes you a special mammal, and the smell of scented floral delight, accompanies your bowel movements-you are indiscriminately rude (and deserve to be eaten by Hannibal Lecter) -You have a chip not only on one shoulder, but both (ask yourself: do I stoop?)



YOUR REVEALING HYPOCRITICAL QUOTE DIRECTED TOWARDS ME: "Once again, a very weak argument to excuse your deplorable decorum. You can make the case you have made against the christian god quite safely but I still fail to connect that with an excuse to be rude to other users."
http://www.debate.org...
POST #81

The irony is that you chastise me for blatantly making fools of theists in a rude and insulting way, but you have no problem with chastising others in the same vein as explicitly shown in your opening post of your own thread! PRICELESS HYPOCRISY!!!

CLINGARD86, YOUR EMBARRASSING HYPOCRISY HAS NO BOUNDS! LOL



.
WAIT! I see that you are still SCARED in your profile page regarding your total MO, so let me help you with this by giving you some perfect examples:

Education: Grade School Hypocrite
Ethnicity: I can be a hypocrite no matter what the ethnicity
Income: When I am a hypocrite, my income doesn"t matter
Occupation: Hypocrite
Religion: Hypocrisy

CLINGARD86, UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU, YOU ARE WHO YOU "PRETEND" TO BE! :(



. _______________________________________________

When do you think CLINGARD86 will change his moniker because of being shown to be an outright HYPOCRITE upon this forum?

. _______________________________________________

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