Total Posts:63|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Bible tells that bats are birds.

bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 4:17:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 9:02:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Please explain?
(a little tribute to 1213 LOL)
Are you all running away from this? Is your god a liar or just ignorant?
dbox
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 6:25:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:

You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.

So God got it wrong and your excuse is that the information is dated?
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
dbox
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood. That necessitates that He use their words. As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used. The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy. When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc. The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information. I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).
dbox
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 7:06:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 6:25:00 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:

You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.

So God got it wrong and your excuse is that the information is dated?

Check my other response.
ethang5
Posts: 19,262
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 7:24:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood. That necessitates that He use their words. As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used. The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy. When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc. The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information. I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

And with that, the stupids are stumped and quiet.

Quick. New thread guys. Suggestion: God called Africa, "Cush". Did God lack a map? Or omniscience?

Lol. What morons.
Studio-B
Posts: 1,401
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 7:27:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 9:02:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Please explain?
(a little tribute to 1213 LOL)

You really are an inbred backward cunt, aren't you.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 7:55:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood. That necessitates that He use their words. As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used. The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy. When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc. The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information. I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).
Let me see if I've got this right.
Hebrew didn't have the right words even though when this story was concocted the written hebrew didn't exist.
Your god dictated a specific word even though god doesn't dictate he just inspires.
But then it wasn't what god said at all it was just the limited knowledge of the people he didn't speak to because that would be dictating.
If his inspiration was inadequate for the purpose of instilling new concepts, ideas and words then I would suggest it's not very inspirational.
Nowhere have you proved that your god knew the difference between birds and bats if the bible is his word and if it's just the scribblings of ignorant savages it's simply meaningless.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 7:58:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:27:38 AM, Studio-B wrote:
At 7/29/2018 9:02:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Please explain?
(a little tribute to 1213 LOL)

You really are an inbred backward cunt, aren't you.
And compared to me you are a brain damaged garden slug.
watcha, you a chav from souf londin?
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 7:59:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:24:11 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood. That necessitates that He use their words. As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used. The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy. When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc. The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information. I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

And with that, the stupids are stumped and quiet.

Quick. New thread guys. Suggestion: God called Africa, "Cush". Did God lack a map? Or omniscience?

Lol. What morons.
You'd run away in tears anyway.
Willows
Posts: 11,692
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 8:04:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood. ....
Stop right there.
Are you saying on some sort of authority that God told...."whoever"....that bats are birds?
I suppose God simplified things by telling these people that the universe is 6000 years old, or did he mean 6000 "God years", which is 13.5 billion human years.
What a load of total contrived rubbish and a poor excuse for explaining away pieces of text that are completely unverified and full of gross exaggerations, myths, and outright lies.
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:

You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.

So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood.

Ah, so God dictated the Bible. I see. It could also have been a dictation error perhaps?

That necessitates that He use their words.

Sure, if he was speaking Hebrew (Aramaic) what other words could he possibly use?

As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used.

That's true, but in context it means bird or fowl as most Bible versions acknowledge. What is indisputable is that an omniscient God would know the difference between winged creatures with feathers on their wings and a mammal with a skin membrane draped over modified forelimbs. That he then lumped in a mammal with fowl demonstrates either ignorance or a propensity for telling fibs.

The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy.

No, the alternative would have been to dictate "Oh, and don't eat bats which are not true fowl". That isn't so difficult is it?

When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

I appreciate that you might have difficulty with the concept that a bat is not a fowl but some of us don't have that problem. You might be less precise with your daughter but that would be no excuse for outright lying to her.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc..

The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge.

The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information.

Why are you suddenly talking about "they"? Didn't you just finish telling us that all of this was dictated by God? God wasn't lacking information.

Or was he? Is that why he later went on to say that insects walked on only four legs? LOL.

I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
TKDB
Posts: 821
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 11:04:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 9:02:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Please explain?
(a little tribute to 1213 LOL)

bulroach: Still scurrying around?
dbox
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 2:53:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:

You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.

So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood.

Ah, so God dictated the Bible. I see. It could also have been a dictation error perhaps?

That necessitates that He use their words.

Sure, if he was speaking Hebrew (Aramaic) what other words could he possibly use?

As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used.

That's true, but in context it means bird or fowl as most Bible versions acknowledge. What is indisputable is that an omniscient God would know the difference between winged creatures with feathers on their wings and a mammal with a skin membrane draped over modified forelimbs. That he then lumped in a mammal with fowl demonstrates either ignorance or a propensity for telling fibs.

The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy.

No, the alternative would have been to dictate "Oh, and don't eat bats which are not true fowl". That isn't so difficult is it?

When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

I appreciate that you might have difficulty with the concept that a bat is not a fowl but some of us don't have that problem. You might be less precise with your daughter but that would be no excuse for outright lying to her.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc..

The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge.

The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information.

Why are you suddenly talking about "they"? Didn't you just finish telling us that all of this was dictated by God? God wasn't lacking information.

Or was he? Is that why he later went on to say that insects walked on only four legs? LOL.

I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.

I'm not sure how to do what you did there with replying to each part separately, sorry if this is not as clear-cut. There were just a few things that stood out to me. First, the process of the Bible being written was a product of both men and God. God inspired men to write, and men wrote as all men do, drawing from their knowledge base/ experiences etc. to communicate to a specific audience. God ensured the proper and accurate transmission of the message of the gospel through the writing of men. The goal and purpose of the writings were not scientific in nature, so forcing that requirement (modern levels of very specific language) into your evaluation of scripture is your prerogative, it is unwarranted and does not deal realistically with the text.

Second, God spoke to Moses, Moses then went and spoke to the Israelites concerning the animals which they could not eat (among other things). When Moses later recorded the conversation for the retaining and propagation of the information to future generations, he chose the word that would most clearly classify the grouping to the people based on what God explained to him. This word does not have to mean fowl as you stated, even in the context. That being said, there is some ambiguity surrounding the etymology of the word translated bat, so maybe in light of that ambiguity, the translators favored bird as the rest of the animals noted are indeed birds.

Also when you stated "The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge", I think it is obvious that is not what I was saying. My point was that just as we organized our taxonomy based on what we see as defining characteristics of different levels of the organization, we should afford the same freedom to the ancient Hebrews. There is no warrant for forcing our taxonomy into their world. The word, as previously stated most literally means wing, and is referring to creatures with wings. It is used of flting insects as well, and there is no reason to believe that anyone from that time thought that the relationship between birds and insects extended beyond the fact that they both had wings. The common denominator between all the instances in which the word is used is its use in reference to winged creatures, so this is the most natural interpretation of the word. In our taxonomy the chordate phylum includes both mammalia and aves. We know that this is not saying they are the same thing, but we have defined the characteristics that qualify membership in this phylum and it would be wrong/ foolish for another group of people with different classification systems to come to us and say we are wrong for using ours the way we do. The inclusion in the chordate phylum is based on the possession of a notochord. That was an arbitrary decision by scientists made for the sake of what they thought was an important distinction. The Hebrews did the same thing but used wings as their defining characteristic.
ethang5
Posts: 19,262
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 3:12:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 2:53:03 PM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM, dee-em wrote:

You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.

So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood.

Ah, so God dictated the Bible. I see. It could also have been a dictation error perhaps?

That necessitates that He use their words.

Sure, if he was speaking Hebrew (Aramaic) what other words could he possibly use?

As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used.

That's true, but in context it means bird or fowl as most Bible versions acknowledge. What is indisputable is that an omniscient God would know the difference between winged creatures with feathers on their wings and a mammal with a skin membrane draped over modified forelimbs. That he then lumped in a mammal with fowl demonstrates either ignorance or a propensity for telling fibs.

The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy.

No, the alternative would have been to dictate "Oh, and don't eat bats which are not true fowl". That isn't so difficult is it?

When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

I appreciate that you might have difficulty with the concept that a bat is not a fowl but some of us don't have that problem. You might be less precise with your daughter but that would be no excuse for outright lying to her.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc..

The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge.

The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information.

Why are you suddenly talking about "they"? Didn't you just finish telling us that all of this was dictated by God? God wasn't lacking information.

Or was he? Is that why he later went on to say that insects walked on only four legs? LOL.

I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.

I'm not sure how to do what you did there with replying to each part separately, sorry if this is not as clear-cut. There were just a few things that stood out to me. First, the process of the Bible being written was a product of both men and God. God inspired men to write, and men wrote as all men do, drawing from their knowledge base/ experiences etc. to communicate to a specific audience. God ensured the proper and accurate transmission of the message of the gospel through the writing of men. The goal and purpose of the writings were not scientific in nature, so forcing that requirement (modern levels of very specific language) into your evaluation of scripture is your prerogative, it is unwarranted and does not deal realistically with the text.

Second, God spoke to Moses, Moses then went and spoke to the Israelites concerning the animals which they could not eat (among other things). When Moses later recorded the conversation for the retaining and propagation of the information to future generations, he chose the word that would most clearly classify the grouping to the people based on what God explained to him. This word does not have to mean fowl as you stated, even in the context. That being said, there is some ambiguity surrounding the etymology of the word translated bat, so maybe in light of that ambiguity, the translators favored bird as the rest of the animals noted are indeed birds.

Also when you stated "The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge", I think it is obvious that is not what I was saying. My point was that just as we organized our taxonomy based on what we see as defining characteristics of different levels of the organization, we should afford the same freedom to the ancient Hebrews. There is no warrant for forcing our taxonomy into their world. The word, as previously stated most literally means wing, and is referring to creatures with wings. It is used of flting insects as well, and there is no reason to believe that anyone from that time thought that the relationship between birds and insects extended beyond the fact that they both had wings. The common denominator between all the instances in which the word is used is its use in reference to winged creatures, so this is the most natural interpretation of the word. In our taxonomy the chordate phylum includes both mammalia and aves. We know that this is not saying they are the same thing, but we have defined the characteristics that qualify membership in this phylum and it would be wrong/ foolish for another group of people with different classification systems to come to us and say we are wrong for using ours the way we do. The inclusion in the chordate phylum is based on the possession of a notochord. That was an arbitrary decision by scientists made for the sake of what they thought was an important distinction. The Hebrews did the same thing but used wings as their defining characteristic.

I wonder how long it will take dbox to realize he's talking to trolls?
dbox
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 3:14:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:55:07 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood. That necessitates that He use their words. As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used. The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy. When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc. The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information. I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).
Let me see if I've got this right.
Hebrew didn't have the right words even though when this story was concocted the written hebrew didn't exist.
Your god dictated a specific word even though god doesn't dictate he just inspires.
But then it wasn't what god said at all it was just the limited knowledge of the people he didn't speak to because that would be dictating.
If his inspiration was inadequate for the purpose of instilling new concepts, ideas and words then I would suggest it's not very inspirational.
Nowhere have you proved that your god knew the difference between birds and bats if the bible is his word and if it's just the scribblings of ignorant savages it's simply meaningless.

It is true that Hebrew did not exist in the exact form in which we have it, but principally the issue remains the same. Scribal edits as the common language changed would not change the meaning of the words as the definitions are fixed. What changes are the forms of the words. Also, there was not only one way that the books were put together. Dictation and Inspiration are not mutually exclusive nor are they inseparably linked.
dbox
Posts: 41
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 4:09:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 3:12:43 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:53:03 PM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM, dee-em wrote:

You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.

So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood.

Ah, so God dictated the Bible. I see. It could also have been a dictation error perhaps?

That necessitates that He use their words.

Sure, if he was speaking Hebrew (Aramaic) what other words could he possibly use?

As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used.

That's true, but in context it means bird or fowl as most Bible versions acknowledge. What is indisputable is that an omniscient God would know the difference between winged creatures with feathers on their wings and a mammal with a skin membrane draped over modified forelimbs. That he then lumped in a mammal with fowl demonstrates either ignorance or a propensity for telling fibs.

The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy.

No, the alternative would have been to dictate "Oh, and don't eat bats which are not true fowl". That isn't so difficult is it?

When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

I appreciate that you might have difficulty with the concept that a bat is not a fowl but some of us don't have that problem. You might be less precise with your daughter but that would be no excuse for outright lying to her.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc..

The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge.

The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information.

Why are you suddenly talking about "they"? Didn't you just finish telling us that all of this was dictated by God? God wasn't lacking information.

Or was he? Is that why he later went on to say that insects walked on only four legs? LOL.

I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.

I'm not sure how to do what you did there with replying to each part separately, sorry if this is not as clear-cut. There were just a few things that stood out to me. First, the process of the Bible being written was a product of both men and God. God inspired men to write, and men wrote as all men do, drawing from their knowledge base/ experiences etc. to communicate to a specific audience. God ensured the proper and accurate transmission of the message of the gospel through the writing of men. The goal and purpose of the writings were not scientific in nature, so forcing that requirement (modern levels of very specific language) into your evaluation of scripture is your prerogative, it is unwarranted and does not deal realistically with the text.

Second, God spoke to Moses, Moses then went and spoke to the Israelites concerning the animals which they could not eat (among other things). When Moses later recorded the conversation for the retaining and propagation of the information to future generations, he chose the word that would most clearly classify the grouping to the people based on what God explained to him. This word does not have to mean fowl as you stated, even in the context. That being said, there is some ambiguity surrounding the etymology of the word translated bat, so maybe in light of that ambiguity, the translators favored bird as the rest of the animals noted are indeed birds.

Also when you stated "The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge", I think it is obvious that is not what I was saying. My point was that just as we organized our taxonomy based on what we see as defining characteristics of different levels of the organization, we should afford the same freedom to the ancient Hebrews. There is no warrant for forcing our taxonomy into their world. The word, as previously stated most literally means wing, and is referring to creatures with wings. It is used of flting insects as well, and there is no reason to believe that anyone from that time thought that the relationship between birds and insects extended beyond the fact that they both had wings. The common denominator between all the instances in which the word is used is its use in reference to winged creatures, so this is the most natural interpretation of the word. In our taxonomy the chordate phylum includes both mammalia and aves. We know that this is not saying they are the same thing, but we have defined the characteristics that qualify membership in this phylum and it would be wrong/ foolish for another group of people with different classification systems to come to us and say we are wrong for using ours the way we do. The inclusion in the chordate phylum is based on the possession of a notochord. That was an arbitrary decision by scientists made for the sake of what they thought was an important distinction. The Hebrews did the same thing but used wings as their defining characteristic.

I wonder how long it will take dbox to realize he's talking to trolls?

lol really? hey even still trolls need to know the truth too
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 4:25:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 4:09:57 PM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 3:12:43 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:53:03 PM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM, dee-em wrote:

You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.

So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood.

Ah, so God dictated the Bible. I see. It could also have been a dictation error perhaps?

That necessitates that He use their words.

Sure, if he was speaking Hebrew (Aramaic) what other words could he possibly use?

As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used.

That's true, but in context it means bird or fowl as most Bible versions acknowledge. What is indisputable is that an omniscient God would know the difference between winged creatures with feathers on their wings and a mammal with a skin membrane draped over modified forelimbs. That he then lumped in a mammal with fowl demonstrates either ignorance or a propensity for telling fibs.

The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy.

No, the alternative would have been to dictate "Oh, and don't eat bats which are not true fowl". That isn't so difficult is it?

When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

I appreciate that you might have difficulty with the concept that a bat is not a fowl but some of us don't have that problem. You might be less precise with your daughter but that would be no excuse for outright lying to her.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc..

The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge.

The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information.

Why are you suddenly talking about "they"? Didn't you just finish telling us that all of this was dictated by God? God wasn't lacking information.

Or was he? Is that why he later went on to say that insects walked on only four legs? LOL.

I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.

I'm not sure how to do what you did there with replying to each part separately, sorry if this is not as clear-cut. There were just a few things that stood out to me. First, the process of the Bible being written was a product of both men and God. God inspired men to write, and men wrote as all men do, drawing from their knowledge base/ experiences etc. to communicate to a specific audience. God ensured the proper and accurate transmission of the message of the gospel through the writing of men. The goal and purpose of the writings were not scientific in nature, so forcing that requirement (modern levels of very specific language) into your evaluation of scripture is your prerogative, it is unwarranted and does not deal realistically with the text.

Second, God spoke to Moses, Moses then went and spoke to the Israelites concerning the animals which they could not eat (among other things). When Moses later recorded the conversation for the retaining and propagation of the information to future generations, he chose the word that would most clearly classify the grouping to the people based on what God explained to him. This word does not have to mean fowl as you stated, even in the context. That being said, there is some ambiguity surrounding the etymology of the word translated bat, so maybe in light of that ambiguity, the translators favored bird as the rest of the animals noted are indeed birds.

Also when you stated "The distinction between modern birds and mammals has not changed since we have had a classification system to the best of my knowledge", I think it is obvious that is not what I was saying. My point was that just as we organized our taxonomy based on what we see as defining characteristics of different levels of the organization, we should afford the same freedom to the ancient Hebrews. There is no warrant for forcing our taxonomy into their world. The word, as previously stated most literally means wing, and is referring to creatures with wings. It is used of flting insects as well, and there is no reason to believe that anyone from that time thought that the relationship between birds and insects extended beyond the fact that they both had wings. The common denominator between all the instances in which the word is used is its use in reference to winged creatures, so this is the most natural interpretation of the word. In our taxonomy the chordate phylum includes both mammalia and aves. We know that this is not saying they are the same thing, but we have defined the characteristics that qualify membership in this phylum and it would be wrong/ foolish for another group of people with different classification systems to come to us and say we are wrong for using ours the way we do. The inclusion in the chordate phylum is based on the possession of a notochord. That was an arbitrary decision by scientists made for the sake of what they thought was an important distinction. The Hebrews did the same thing but used wings as their defining characteristic.

I wonder how long it will take dbox to realize he's talking to trolls?

lol really? hey even still trolls need to know the truth too
It's true trolls need love and truth, however the trolls in this forum have no intention of knowing the truth and I've been around awhile now. Bully will roll over you every time truth or not, you can make all the sense in the world he don't care his mission here is one-tracked. I don't have to really say anything, you'll see yourself with his responses lol. Best to move on to the more mature members....there's some awesome, intelligent atheists and agnostics here but beware the four horsemen. You sound decently logical, nice to have you join the forum!
RoderickSpode
Posts: 4,268
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 4:41:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 7:04:32 AM, dbox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:39:05 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:25:02 AM, dbox wrote:
You are reading modern taxonomic values into a 3000-year-old text. Your argument is built on the error of anachronism.
So your god is ignorant is your response.

No sir,
The ancient Hebrews did not have the same taxonomy that we do, so when God spoke to them, He spoke in such a way that He would be understood. That necessitates that He use their words. As they had a word for winged creatures (that we translate bird, though the word owph could legitimately be translated winged creature or creature that flies as some translations do), this is the word God used. The alternative would be making a new word and explaining their need for more precise scientific classifications alongside a brief commentary on 21st Century taxonomy. When I speak to my daughter, I speak to her in a slightly less precise way than I would a peer. This does not mean I am ignorant.

Also, think about this. Our classification system is somewhat arbitrary. The distinctions between classes of organisms are only based on the information of which we are aware. As we obtain more information, those distinctions shift or the classes change etc. The ancient Hebrews made one distinction at the level of the ability to fly but noted a difference between insects and birds. They did what we do but just had less information. I am sure they did recognize a distinction between a hawk and a bat, but for the purpose of simplicity in writing they made the distinction simply at the level of having wings (as the precise lower level distinction of animal classes was not the point of the author of Lev 11).

+1
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 5:03:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM, dee-em wrote:

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.

I would have guessed that ancient humans distinguised between 'fliers', 'walker/runners' and 'swimmers'. Today, 'bird' and 'fish' are not scientific terms - the closest corresponding terms are 'aves' and 'pisces'.

Bats are not 'aves', but they are 'flying animals', so I don't have a problems with them being called 'birds'. In swahili 'ndege' is the word for 'bird', but its also the word for 'aeroplane' - so 'ndege' means 'flying thing'.

I'm sure that when it was invented the word 'fish' meant 'swimming animal'. Much later scientists defined 'pisces' in a precise way that closely matched 'fish' and over time the scientific definition of 'pisces' was adopted by pedants and dictionary writers, but a whale is a swimming animal, so it's a ruddy big fish in anglo-saxon. It's just not a pisces biologically.
ethang5
Posts: 19,262
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 5:37:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:03:53 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM, dee-em wrote:

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.

I would have guessed that ancient humans distinguised between 'fliers', 'walker/runners' and 'swimmers'. Today, 'bird' and 'fish' are not scientific terms - the closest corresponding terms are 'aves' and 'pisces'.

Bats are not 'aves', but they are 'flying animals', so I don't have a problems with them being called 'birds'. In swahili 'ndege' is the word for 'bird', but its also the word for 'aeroplane' - so 'ndege' means 'flying thing'.

I'm sure that when it was invented the word 'fish' meant 'swimming animal'. Much later scientists defined 'pisces' in a precise way that closely matched 'fish' and over time the scientific definition of 'pisces' was adopted by pedants and dictionary writers, but a whale is a swimming animal, so it's a ruddy big fish in anglo-saxon. It's just not a pisces biologically.

Why do you always come in and spoil our fun with the moron twins? We could have made them display their ignorance for a least two more pages.

Maybe bully still won't get it and come round for another stupidity stab.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 5:50:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:37:46 PM, ethang5 wrote:
Why do you always come in and spoil our fun with the moron twins? We could have made them display their ignorance for a least two more pages.

Why? Becuase I think there are plenty of serious problems with religion... but this ain't one of them!
ethang5
Posts: 19,262
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 6:11:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:50:21 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:37:46 PM, ethang5 wrote:
Why do you always come in and spoil our fun with the moron twins? We could have made them display their ignorance for a least two more pages.

Why? Becuase I think there are plenty of serious problems with religion... but this ain't one of them!

So then let us make merry for a bit. Come on, you can't tell me you did not find the sheer ignorance of this thread entertaining.

They even may have been only acting stupid, but then that means we were all having a jolly time.

Spoilsport. Killjoy.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2018 8:59:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2018 9:02:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Please explain?
(a little tribute to 1213 LOL)

Bird had different meaning earlier. Why modern people changed the meaning? Probably because they hate God and truth and try to make Bible look wrong. But person has to be ignorant and rather stupid to think Bible is wrong, if modern people make up own new meanings for old words. :D
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2018 3:24:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:03:53 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/30/2018 10:13:05 AM, dee-em wrote:

Who is "they"? I thought you said that God was dictating this text? You really need to get your story straight.

I would have guessed that ancient humans distinguised between 'fliers', 'walker/runners' and 'swimmers'. Today, 'bird' and 'fish' are not scientific terms - the closest corresponding terms are 'aves' and 'pisces'.

Bats are not 'aves', but they are 'flying animals', so I don't have a problems with them being called 'birds'. In swahili 'ndege' is the word for 'bird', but its also the word for 'aeroplane' - so 'ndege' means 'flying thing'.

I'm sure that when it was invented the word 'fish' meant 'swimming animal'. Much later scientists defined 'pisces' in a precise way that closely matched 'fish' and over time the scientific definition of 'pisces' was adopted by pedants and dictionary writers, but a whale is a swimming animal, so it's a ruddy big fish in anglo-saxon. It's just not a pisces biologically.

So the bible isn't the word of god and christians lie, that isn't news.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2018 3:26:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 6:11:28 PM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:50:21 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:37:46 PM, ethang5 wrote:
Why do you always come in and spoil our fun with the moron twins? We could have made them display their ignorance for a least two more pages.

Why? Becuase I think there are plenty of serious problems with religion... but this ain't one of them!

So then let us make merry for a bit. Come on, you can't tell me you did not find the sheer ignorance of this thread entertaining.

They even may have been only acting stupid, but then that means we were all having a jolly time.

Spoilsport. Killjoy.

So far the godist response is
a) god didn't know the difference
or
b) the bible is not the word of god.

I think you're on your way to hell either way.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/31/2018 3:28:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 8:59:22 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/29/2018 9:02:03 PM, bulproof wrote:
Please explain?
(a little tribute to 1213 LOL)

Bird had different meaning earlier. Why modern people changed the meaning? Probably because they hate God and truth and try to make Bible look wrong. But person has to be ignorant and rather stupid to think Bible is wrong, if modern people make up own new meanings for old words. :D
So your god didn't know the difference or it's just fiction written by men who you claim didn't know the difference.

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.