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Sunday Night Special....

EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 12:27:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Howdy yal, I'm gonna kick back and have a drink this evening so now is the time to take advantage of me lol, ask me anything you want....personal, religious, health, spirituality whatever!! shoot, otherwise I'll just go watch a survivor show or documentary instead.
janesix
Posts: 8,233
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7/30/2018 12:39:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 12:27:52 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Howdy yal, I'm gonna kick back and have a drink this evening so now is the time to take advantage of me lol, ask me anything you want....personal, religious, health, spirituality whatever!! shoot, otherwise I'll just go watch a survivor show or documentary instead.

Don't get too drunk
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 12:40:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 12:39:22 AM, janesix wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:27:52 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
Howdy yal, I'm gonna kick back and have a drink this evening so now is the time to take advantage of me lol, ask me anything you want....personal, religious, health, spirituality whatever!! shoot, otherwise I'll just go watch a survivor show or documentary instead.

Don't get too drunk
LOL doubt that.
Casten
Posts: 2,515
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7/30/2018 2:20:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If gods exist outside time and space, why do so many of our religious notions follow cause and effect, which only have meaning to creatures whose limited senses cause them to perceive reality as linear time?
Bummed about the low activity and abandonment of DDO? You can always try us on DART: https://www.debateart.com...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 2:38:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 2:20:06 AM, Casten wrote:
If gods exist outside time and space, why do so many of our religious notions follow cause and effect, which only have meaning to creatures whose limited senses cause them to perceive reality as linear time?
It sounds weird to say that God exists "outside" time and space and then think of God as being relevant to what we experience. But, time is an illusion not a separation.....the omnipresent ocean of conscious awareness is a fixed backdrop which created the illusion of time passing through the movement of the material world. By movement I mean the passing and decaying of material objects.

Cause and effect would only have meaning to us in the created worlds. It doesn't have to be relevant to the One, only us experience life through duality but God knows what we experience through each channel of awareness. That's why such laws exist like cause and effect, so the soul can learn from experience.
Casten
Posts: 2,515
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7/30/2018 2:54:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 2:38:42 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:20:06 AM, Casten wrote:
If gods exist outside time and space, why do so many of our religious notions follow cause and effect, which only have meaning to creatures whose limited senses cause them to perceive reality as linear time?
It sounds weird to say that God exists "outside" time and space and then think of God as being relevant to what we experience. But, time is an illusion not a separation.....the omnipresent ocean of conscious awareness is a fixed backdrop which created the illusion of time passing through the movement of the material world. By movement I mean the passing and decaying of material objects.

Cause and effect would only have meaning to us in the created worlds. It doesn't have to be relevant to the One, only us experience life through duality but God knows what we experience through each channel of awareness. That's why such laws exist like cause and effect, so the soul can learn from experience.

Interesting response as usual, Ev.

If cause and effect have meaning only to us, and not to God, what do you think that does for ideas like sin and punishment, or faith and reward? As in the example of heaven and hell?
Bummed about the low activity and abandonment of DDO? You can always try us on DART: https://www.debateart.com...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 3:11:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 2:54:24 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:38:42 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:20:06 AM, Casten wrote:
If gods exist outside time and space, why do so many of our religious notions follow cause and effect, which only have meaning to creatures whose limited senses cause them to perceive reality as linear time?
It sounds weird to say that God exists "outside" time and space and then think of God as being relevant to what we experience. But, time is an illusion not a separation.....the omnipresent ocean of conscious awareness is a fixed backdrop which created the illusion of time passing through the movement of the material world. By movement I mean the passing and decaying of material objects.

Cause and effect would only have meaning to us in the created worlds. It doesn't have to be relevant to the One, only us experience life through duality but God knows what we experience through each channel of awareness. That's why such laws exist like cause and effect, so the soul can learn from experience.

Interesting response as usual, Ev.

If cause and effect have meaning only to us, and not to God, what do you think that does for ideas like sin and punishment, or faith and reward? As in the example of heaven and hell?
Way to go Casten, these are deeper questions that the average ones!
Sin and punishments exists so that the soul can learn through experience and trial and error as "sin" comes through the individual not God per say so it need only be relevant to us which are the ones making choices in a dualistic environment. God exists as a singular unit, no contrast and no one to compare to or argue with so there is no duality or sin, because it's one reality.
This is all based upon the individual souls actions, heavens are higher experiences and hells are lower experiences and each is congruent with the individuals choices and or crimes. There's not just one heaven and one hell, not even close. Hells are prisons in the astral world and contrary to popular opinions prison sentences are congruent with crimes committed. Likewise the soul must earn its way into the higher heavens. Either way the soul and its experiences are for the progression of the soul and no place is eternal only the soul is. The thing is, the subtle bodies that cover the soul exist for eons, so the experiences in the spiritual realms last much longer.
"Sin and punishments" are based upon principles, not God. The soul operates within a matrix of spiritual laws and principles.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 3:21:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 2:54:24 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:38:42 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:20:06 AM, Casten wrote:
If gods exist outside time and space, why do so many of our religious notions follow cause and effect, which only have meaning to creatures whose limited senses cause them to perceive reality as linear time?
It sounds weird to say that God exists "outside" time and space and then think of God as being relevant to what we experience. But, time is an illusion not a separation.....the omnipresent ocean of conscious awareness is a fixed backdrop which created the illusion of time passing through the movement of the material world. By movement I mean the passing and decaying of material objects.

Cause and effect would only have meaning to us in the created worlds. It doesn't have to be relevant to the One, only us experience life through duality but God knows what we experience through each channel of awareness. That's why such laws exist like cause and effect, so the soul can learn from experience.

Interesting response as usual, Ev.

If cause and effect have meaning only to us, and not to God, what do you think that does for ideas like sin and punishment, or faith and reward? As in the example of heaven and hell?
It's purely the idea of the Creator for the lower part of Itself to learn through experience in a dualistic environment. The only way that can be made possible is if the One becomes the many through individual forms and expressions. This goes from a singular reality to a contrasted reality, the point of creation is to have two forces opposing one another. You have this in physics, chemistry, romance, procreation, positive and negative, good and evil ect ect...this is the playground of the Divine only the soul become an actual co-creator!
Casten
Posts: 2,515
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7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 3:21:52 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:54:24 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:38:42 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:20:06 AM, Casten wrote:
If gods exist outside time and space, why do so many of our religious notions follow cause and effect, which only have meaning to creatures whose limited senses cause them to perceive reality as linear time?
It sounds weird to say that God exists "outside" time and space and then think of God as being relevant to what we experience. But, time is an illusion not a separation.....the omnipresent ocean of conscious awareness is a fixed backdrop which created the illusion of time passing through the movement of the material world. By movement I mean the passing and decaying of material objects.

Cause and effect would only have meaning to us in the created worlds. It doesn't have to be relevant to the One, only us experience life through duality but God knows what we experience through each channel of awareness. That's why such laws exist like cause and effect, so the soul can learn from experience.

Interesting response as usual, Ev.

If cause and effect have meaning only to us, and not to God, what do you think that does for ideas like sin and punishment, or faith and reward? As in the example of heaven and hell?
It's purely the idea of the Creator for the lower part of Itself to learn through experience in a dualistic environment. The only way that can be made possible is if the One becomes the many through individual forms and expressions. This goes from a singular reality to a contrasted reality, the point of creation is to have two forces opposing one another. You have this in physics, chemistry, romance, procreation, positive and negative, good and evil ect ect...this is the playground of the Divine only the soul become an actual co-creator!

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Bummed about the low activity and abandonment of DDO? You can always try us on DART: https://www.debateart.com...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 3:21:52 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:54:24 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:38:42 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:20:06 AM, Casten wrote:
If gods exist outside time and space, why do so many of our religious notions follow cause and effect, which only have meaning to creatures whose limited senses cause them to perceive reality as linear time?
It sounds weird to say that God exists "outside" time and space and then think of God as being relevant to what we experience. But, time is an illusion not a separation.....the omnipresent ocean of conscious awareness is a fixed backdrop which created the illusion of time passing through the movement of the material world. By movement I mean the passing and decaying of material objects.

Cause and effect would only have meaning to us in the created worlds. It doesn't have to be relevant to the One, only us experience life through duality but God knows what we experience through each channel of awareness. That's why such laws exist like cause and effect, so the soul can learn from experience.

Interesting response as usual, Ev.

If cause and effect have meaning only to us, and not to God, what do you think that does for ideas like sin and punishment, or faith and reward? As in the example of heaven and hell?
It's purely the idea of the Creator for the lower part of Itself to learn through experience in a dualistic environment. The only way that can be made possible is if the One becomes the many through individual forms and expressions. This goes from a singular reality to a contrasted reality, the point of creation is to have two forces opposing one another. You have this in physics, chemistry, romance, procreation, positive and negative, good and evil ect ect...this is the playground of the Divine only the soul become an actual co-creator!

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.
Casten
Posts: 2,515
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7/30/2018 4:31:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.

That is, if cause and effect only have meaning to us here on the mortal coil, would sin and punishment lose meaning once we departed the mortal coil? My thinking being that sin and punishment are cause and effect.

I admit it's a question that can kind of give you a headache.
Bummed about the low activity and abandonment of DDO? You can always try us on DART: https://www.debateart.com...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 4:48:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 4:31:28 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.

That is, if cause and effect only have meaning to us here on the mortal coil, would sin and punishment lose meaning once we departed the mortal coil? My thinking being that sin and punishment are cause and effect.

No because you carry your experiences with you, whether you are in the body or not doesn't matter you made choices as a conscious soul not a temporal object and so the choices we make are reverberating into eternity because the soul is eternal. That's why they are so important in the spiritual context but grace is always prevalent at every turn when the soul is ready to surrender. Grace being the option that we don't necessarily deserve but will learn from when the time is right. You actually have several layers that sheath/cover the soul and these layers can stay with you for quite awhile because the subtle bodies atoms exist at a much finer rate and far less dense than the material body so it is virtually self propelled. As long as you have embodiments in creation cause and effect stay with you at all levels. Only as you mature you learn to work with the law and master it and even become a law maker/co-creator.

I admit it's a question that can kind of give you a headache.
Lol.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 4:53:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 4:31:28 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.

That is, if cause and effect only have meaning to us here on the mortal coil, would sin and punishment lose meaning once we departed the mortal coil? My thinking being that sin and punishment are cause and effect.

If you're saying if you leave creation....which is a cause and effect environment would sin and punishment lose meaning? yes it would, but no soul will ever bypass the journey back to the Godhead.....it must face all its choices before that ever happens.
I admit it's a question that can kind of give you a headache.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 5:10:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 4:31:28 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.

That is, if cause and effect only have meaning to us here on the mortal coil, would sin and punishment lose meaning once we departed the mortal coil? My thinking being that sin and punishment are cause and effect.

I admit it's a question that can kind of give you a headache.
Make sure you don't stop until you are satisfied. That's what you deserve.
Casten
Posts: 2,515
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7/30/2018 5:20:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 4:53:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:31:28 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.

That is, if cause and effect only have meaning to us here on the mortal coil, would sin and punishment lose meaning once we departed the mortal coil? My thinking being that sin and punishment are cause and effect.

If you're saying if you leave creation....which is a cause and effect environment would sin and punishment lose meaning? yes it would, but no soul will ever bypass the journey back to the Godhead.....it must face all its choices before that ever happens.
I admit it's a question that can kind of give you a headache.

Thanks for the answer. I tend to prefer the eastern idea of suffering and transcendence over the more western idea of sin and punishment.
Bummed about the low activity and abandonment of DDO? You can always try us on DART: https://www.debateart.com...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 5:31:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:20:14 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:53:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:31:28 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.

That is, if cause and effect only have meaning to us here on the mortal coil, would sin and punishment lose meaning once we departed the mortal coil? My thinking being that sin and punishment are cause and effect.

If you're saying if you leave creation....which is a cause and effect environment would sin and punishment lose meaning? yes it would, but no soul will ever bypass the journey back to the Godhead.....it must face all its choices before that ever happens.
I admit it's a question that can kind of give you a headache.

Thanks for the answer. I tend to prefer the eastern idea of suffering and transcendence over the more western idea of sin and punishment.

You should consider that they are compatible, only one expands more on a specific aspect than the other and religious dogma tends to control the majority. I like eastern ideas too, but western has unique features as well...the eastern idea of suffering expands more on the specifics of the nature of desires whereas the western idea seems to focus on the idea that we are sinful by nature. Both are true and both have an outlet and path to bridge the problem.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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7/30/2018 2:48:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:20:14 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:53:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:31:28 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:17:47 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 7/30/2018 4:15:56 AM, Casten wrote:

Do you believe souls go to something akin to heaven or hell as a direct causal effect of their choices in this life?
Of course, they can also reincarnate to earth if they deserve neither.

That is, if cause and effect only have meaning to us here on the mortal coil, would sin and punishment lose meaning once we departed the mortal coil? My thinking being that sin and punishment are cause and effect.

If you're saying if you leave creation....which is a cause and effect environment would sin and punishment lose meaning? yes it would, but no soul will ever bypass the journey back to the Godhead.....it must face all its choices before that ever happens.
I admit it's a question that can kind of give you a headache.

Thanks for the answer. I tend to prefer the eastern idea of suffering and transcendence over the more western idea of sin and punishment.
BTW when I use the term "sinful" by nature I'm not supporting the whole baloney "we're all born sinners and destined for hell" crap, that's not what I'm getting at.....it just means you are born with a flesh nature, which is prone to weakness. The idea that we are born sinners has been dragged through the gutters by religion and misunderstood and used to manipulate people. There's truth to it, then there's misconceptions as well.
Casten
Posts: 2,515
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8/4/2018 9:30:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 2:48:45 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

BTW when I use the term "sinful" by nature I'm not supporting the whole baloney "we're all born sinners and destined for hell" crap, that's not what I'm getting at.....it just means you are born with a flesh nature, which is prone to weakness. The idea that we are born sinners has been dragged through the gutters by religion and misunderstood and used to manipulate people. There's truth to it, then there's misconceptions as well.

That's interesting. Most Christians I talk to believe we're born sinners. As far as I know, scripture supports this. But I know you don't believe the Bible is 100% literal truth. Do you not believe in original sin and all that?
Bummed about the low activity and abandonment of DDO? You can always try us on DART: https://www.debateart.com...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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8/4/2018 12:16:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2018 9:30:00 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:48:45 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

BTW when I use the term "sinful" by nature I'm not supporting the whole baloney "we're all born sinners and destined for hell" crap, that's not what I'm getting at.....it just means you are born with a flesh nature, which is prone to weakness. The idea that we are born sinners has been dragged through the gutters by religion and misunderstood and used to manipulate people. There's truth to it, then there's misconceptions as well.

That's interesting. Most Christians I talk to believe we're born sinners. As far as I know, scripture supports this. But I know you don't believe the Bible is 100% literal truth. Do you not believe in original sin and all that?
Actually if you read the Adam and Eve account nowhere does it make any claim we are all born sinners, that interpretation came much later as well it's not in the Gospels either that I'm aware of but there might be something along those lines in the Epistles but it's become a misconception and used by religion to manipulate whether that be on purpose or not. The biggest mistake in rendering the Adam and Eve story is thinking we're all screwed because of what two people chose to do, not at all Adam and Eve are representative of mankind as a whole they represent you, me and everyone else and we're not screwed until we do something that screws us and so it was with Adam and Eve, there were not born sinners either. Likewise there was never a talking snake lol, the snake is representative of the temptations we face and the whispers of carnality in our conscious in this realm. How the story can be translated from a universal perspective is that we are born into a flesh nature that is prone to weakness, which is our embodiments in a dualistic environment. The actual soul comes straight out of the Godhead and its as perfect is the One that sent it forth. Now that would be more accurate, otherwise you start getting really weird and begin believing crap like babies go to hell, or that you're pretty much going to hell unless you do something about it, or even that we somehow deserve it ect ect "...all that can be avoided because it's untrue anyways. Scriptures have many layers to them, that's what I love about spiritual texts so you can have a literal account and still have more than one meaning to them. However what I wrote above IMO is compatible both with either a literal or figurative interpretation but I would find it strange that anyone would still believe in a literal talking snake or even a floating soard. Even if Adam and Eve were literal they still could be representative of man kind but they were never born sinners. The snake, even if you think there was an actual talking snake it still could be representative of temptation and the negative forces, the pull of the flesh nature. The tree could still be representing the mind and the nature of duality ect ect you get the point but nowhere in my opinion does it convey we are born wicked.

I actually believe in a literal Garden of Eden of types where its thought to have existed and that perhaps the first human type spirits took on bodies that had have evolved into something useable and higher functioning. But the "tree" and the "fruit" the sword, the talking snake, the curses ect ect are all representative of another meaning, perhaps several. Like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil representing the mind and our perceptions through duality. There's all kinds of neat symbolic things going on in that story, perhaps this is why Jesus was such a Master with memorable parables and illustrations He could convey so many things with one passage and spirituality and religious texts are much like that as well.

There are so many things in the Bible that can get really weird if you take them literally and not figuratively or spiritual. The Bible is a mixture of many literary styles that's just the nature of it it's BOTH figurative and literal not one or the other, it incorporates both styles in and out all throughout the entire Bible. Now we have strange religious institutions that believe Jesus established a Papacy and all sorts of crazy things. Jesus used parables, analogies and illustrations to visualize something of another meaning all the time but the funny part is that they have such simplicity that it's almost impossible to miss the point yet many do lol, it's quite strange perhaps the teachings of Jesus are perceived through a more spiritually minded person IDK but you see how many weird beliefs are out there and they all fight over them. Hey don't forget when you read spiritual scriptures they are for you, the layer of spirituality within it is personally for your benefit and application so you don't need any religions telling you what to interpret other than the actual Authors, but the spiritual content if for your understanding as a spiritual individual (collectively as well too). You have to be careful in this world and protect yourself this is the wild wild west of creation D: so don't forget this is about you too and your own survival.

Hey I've received a few invite to this Civid forum place over the last few months or so but I've been bust to check it out, you know anything about that? I know DDO might get the boot...
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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8/4/2018 12:32:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2018 9:30:00 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:48:45 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

BTW when I use the term "sinful" by nature I'm not supporting the whole baloney "we're all born sinners and destined for hell" crap, that's not what I'm getting at.....it just means you are born with a flesh nature, which is prone to weakness. The idea that we are born sinners has been dragged through the gutters by religion and misunderstood and used to manipulate people. There's truth to it, then there's misconceptions as well.

That's interesting. Most Christians I talk to believe we're born sinners. As far as I know, scripture supports this. But I know you don't believe the Bible is 100% literal truth. Do you not believe in original sin and all that?
Typos sorry about that, "Hey I've received a few invites to this Civid forum place over the last few months or so but I've been too busy to check it out, you know anything about that? I know DDO might get the boot..."
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
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8/4/2018 1:01:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/4/2018 9:30:00 AM, Casten wrote:
At 7/30/2018 2:48:45 PM, EtrnlVw wrote:

BTW when I use the term "sinful" by nature I'm not supporting the whole baloney "we're all born sinners and destined for hell" crap, that's not what I'm getting at.....it just means you are born with a flesh nature, which is prone to weakness. The idea that we are born sinners has been dragged through the gutters by religion and misunderstood and used to manipulate people. There's truth to it, then there's misconceptions as well.

That's interesting. Most Christians I talk to believe we're born sinners. As far as I know, scripture supports this. But I know you don't believe the Bible is 100% literal truth
The Bible has an actual historical basis, the history of its people, its culture, it's prophets ect ect but not everything within the Bible is literal. There's a difference between historical and either literal or figurative. The Bible is a historical book that uses various literary skills, many times it uses characters and illustrations to visualize or convey another message or perhaps several meanings. But that's not to take away from its historical value and not even the accounts that are literal, as I said before it's both, so one need not pick one or the other, rather understand the differences.

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