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The Census

Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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7/30/2018 5:28:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I would suppose it was the majority. I am not aware of any policy to cast doubt on it within Christianity.

The unwritten policy is to blur the nativity stories of Matthew and Luke - even in the opening of Life of Brian we see both sheep and wise men, but they are in different gospels - shepherds in Luke, wise men in Matthew.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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7/30/2018 9:00:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I believe the whole Bible is correct.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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7/30/2018 11:18:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 9:00:25 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I believe the whole Bible is correct.

Well, this particular story, which only appears in one Gospel, has been definitively shown to not be true.

Why then do you believe it?
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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7/30/2018 11:21:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 5:28:01 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I would suppose it was the majority. I am not aware of any policy to cast doubt on it within Christianity.

The unwritten policy is to blur the nativity stories of Matthew and Luke - even in the opening of Life of Brian we see both sheep and wise men, but they are in different gospels - shepherds in Luke, wise men in Matthew.


Sure, but the whole point is to fulfill what was thought to be the prophecy that he was born in Bethlehem- but we have definitive evidence the census didn't happen under Herod, and that there was never a requirement for people to return to their places of birth.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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7/30/2018 11:28:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 11:21:04 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 7/30/2018 5:28:01 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I would suppose it was the majority. I am not aware of any policy to cast doubt on it within Christianity.

The unwritten policy is to blur the nativity stories of Matthew and Luke - even in the opening of Life of Brian we see both sheep and wise men, but they are in different gospels - shepherds in Luke, wise men in Matthew.


Sure, but the whole point is to fulfill what was thought to be the prophecy that he was born in Bethlehem- but we have definitive evidence the census didn't happen under Herod, and that there was never a requirement for people to return to their places of birth.

That information is readily available - but Christians are not encouraged so seek it out and, in my experience, very few do. I doubt it is often mentioned from the pulpit or in Sunday Schools!

After all, you asked "How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?", not to say why they shouldn't believe it!
Willows
Posts: 11,692
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7/31/2018 5:06:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 9:00:25 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I believe the whole Bible is correct.

For example, the universe is 6000 years old, life was created, the world was once flooded to the top of Mount Everest, Adam and Eve and their offspring committed incest as did Noah's family.
Yep it's all correct alright and to this day, this is what man looks like.....
.....http://flapjacksociety.com...

You heard it here folks....the Bible is correct.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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7/31/2018 9:31:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 5:06:05 AM, Willows wrote:
At 7/30/2018 9:00:25 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I believe the whole Bible is correct.

For example, the universe is 6000 years old

That is not what the Bible tells.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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7/31/2018 9:31:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/30/2018 11:18:45 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Well, this particular story, which only appears in one Gospel, has been definitively shown to not be true.

I have only seen the claim, no real proof that the claim is really true.
Willows
Posts: 11,692
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7/31/2018 10:41:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 9:31:28 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/31/2018 5:06:05 AM, Willows wrote:
At 7/30/2018 9:00:25 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:31:48 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
How many Christians maintain the story of Joseph and Mary having to return to Bethlehem for a Roman Census as being factual?

I believe the whole Bible is correct.

For example, the universe is 6000 years old

That is not what the Bible tells.

Come on, I've heard that lame retort more than enough times before.
You know very well how the figure of 6000 was arrived at, don't you?
Well?
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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8/1/2018 12:23:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 9:31:49 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 11:18:45 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Well, this particular story, which only appears in one Gospel, has been definitively shown to not be true.

I have only seen the claim, no real proof that the claim is really true.

There is ample historic evidence from the time that no census occurred while Herod was in power, and that the census that did occur did not involve people returning to their place of birth.

Do you doubt that?
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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8/1/2018 6:53:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/31/2018 10:41:30 PM, Willows wrote:
Come on, I've heard that lame retort more than enough times before.
You know very well how the figure of 6000 was arrived at, don't you?
Well?

Bible doesn"t give that number, so it can be wrong.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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8/1/2018 6:54:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 12:23:36 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 7/31/2018 9:31:49 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 11:18:45 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Well, this particular story, which only appears in one Gospel, has been definitively shown to not be true.

I have only seen the claim, no real proof that the claim is really true.

There is ample historic evidence from the time that no census occurred while Herod was in power, and that the census that did occur did not involve people returning to their place of birth.

Do you doubt that?

I rather believe what the Bible tells, it is more believable to me.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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8/1/2018 10:17:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 6:54:05 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/1/2018 12:23:36 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 7/31/2018 9:31:49 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/30/2018 11:18:45 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Well, this particular story, which only appears in one Gospel, has been definitively shown to not be true.

I have only seen the claim, no real proof that the claim is really true.

There is ample historic evidence from the time that no census occurred while Herod was in power, and that the census that did occur did not involve people returning to their place of birth.

Do you doubt that?

I rather believe what the Bible tells, it is more believable to me.

Right- so what feels right is more important to you than what is actually true?
Willows
Posts: 11,692
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8/2/2018 1:12:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 6:53:52 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 7/31/2018 10:41:30 PM, Willows wrote:
Come on, I've heard that lame retort more than enough times before.
You know very well how the figure of 6000 was arrived at, don't you?
Well?

Bible doesn"t give that number, so it can be wrong.

OK, you asked for it, since you always seem to require a 10 meter-high neon sign in front of your loungeroom window to spell things out for you......
http://www.debate.org...
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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8/2/2018 7:58:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/1/2018 10:17:41 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Right- so what feels right is more important to you than what is actually true?

Actually, it is not for me about feeling. I just trust more Bible than for example you, or "scientists". Reason is, I have not seen Bible to be wrong in anything. It has never lied. Same can"t be said about "scientists".
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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8/2/2018 7:58:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 1:12:18 AM, Willows wrote:
OK, you asked for it, since you always seem to require a 10 meter-high neon sign in front of your loungeroom window to spell things out for you......
http://www.debate.org...

Still, Bible doesn"t say 6000 years. It is the calculation of men and it can be wrong.

("The 6,000 year age was arrived at by James Ussher, a 17th century Irish Archbishop who counted up estimates of the ages of Abraham"s family listed in the Old Testament and calculated that the creation began (on the Julian calendar) on Saturday, October 22, 4004 BC, at 6 pm.")

And:
"Adam was created on day 6, so there were five days before him. If we add up the dates from Adam to Abraham, we get about 2,000 years, using the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis 5 and 11.3 Whether Christian or secular, most scholars would agree that Abraham lived about 2,000 B.C. (4,000 years ago).

Firstly, it may be that the family lists are not complete. Therefore, the result may be wrong. Secondly, before sun was created, how was the day length determined? Bible doesn"t tell that, so we really don"t know the age. It is also possible that modern years are not same as ancient ones. It may be that day length has changed from the beginning. This is why I think it is not reasonable to make any claims about the age from the Bible.
Wizofoz
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8/3/2018 2:13:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 7:58:32 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/1/2018 10:17:41 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Right- so what feels right is more important to you than what is actually true?

Actually, it is not for me about feeling. I just trust more Bible than for example you, or "scientists". Reason is, I have not seen Bible to be wrong in anything. It has never lied. Same can"t be said about "scientists".

But that's a circular argument. Right here, I've shown an example where the bible is not telling the truth.

You won't believe anything that says the bible isn't true, then say that shows the bible IS true.

Let's try this- I know the bible isn't true because I refuse to believe anything it says.

Am I being reasonable? Logical?

No, but it is the same argument you are using.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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8/3/2018 3:03:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 7:58:32 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/1/2018 10:17:41 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Right- so what feels right is more important to you than what is actually true?

Actually, it is not for me about feeling. I just trust more Bible than for example you, or "scientists". Reason is, I have not seen Bible to be wrong in anything. It has never lied. Same can"t be said about "scientists".

You must be cutting the Bible a lot of slack! I will concede that you didn't see God not turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt, but I tend to be sceptical about things like that.

As to scientists lying, it has to be said that some scientists (being human beings)have behaved badly (Piltdown man, for example). But I don't think that is what you mean.

What science says changes over time, but a proper scientist (as opposed to a science journalist) rarely talks in terms of what is fundamentally 'true'. In science what is 'true' generally means no more than 'What is the most likely looking guess, based on what is known so far.'

When more information comes in, sometimes it confirms what went before, other times it doesn't and it makes a nonsense of current theories. It is actually the latter that scientists prefer!

If you get into science you come to understand that everything you know is probably at least a little bit wrong, and some things are probably very wrong. Religious people know they are right (or so they think)but a scientists is always in doubt.
Willows
Posts: 11,692
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8/3/2018 9:07:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/2/2018 7:58:43 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/2/2018 1:12:18 AM, Willows wrote:
OK, you asked for it, since you always seem to require a 10 meter-high neon sign in front of your loungeroom window to spell things out for you......
http://www.debate.org...

Still, Bible doesn"t say 6000 years. It is the calculation of men and it can be wrong.

("The 6,000 year age was arrived at by James Ussher, a 17th century Irish Archbishop who counted up estimates of the ages of Abraham"s family listed in the Old Testament and calculated that the creation began (on the Julian calendar) on Saturday, October 22, 4004 BC, at 6 pm.")

And:
"Adam was created on day 6, so there were five days before him. If we add up the dates from Adam to Abraham, we get about 2,000 years, using the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis 5 and 11.3 Whether Christian or secular, most scholars would agree that Abraham lived about 2,000 B.C. (4,000 years ago).

Firstly, it may be that the family lists are not complete. Therefore, the result may be wrong. Secondly, before sun was created, how was the day length determined? Bible doesn"t tell that, so we really don"t know the age. It is also possible that modern years are not same as ancient ones. It may be that day length has changed from the beginning. This is why I think it is not reasonable to make any claims about the age from the Bible.

It is clearly written and the deduction is definite and playing around with possibilities does not change the fact: the Bible claims that the universe is 6000 years old.
The well-used nitwit excuse of "God years" and "Bible years" is not even funny anymore.

The fact is clear....the Bible was written by a bunch of nitwits who knew nothing more than anyone else at the time. If it was the "word of God", why would God allow such a fundamental blunder to be written....along with many others, I might add?
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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8/3/2018 8:33:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2018 2:13:17 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
But that's a circular argument. Right here, I've shown an example where the bible is not telling the truth.

You won't believe anything that says the bible isn't true, then say that shows the bible IS true.

I believe, if you can really prove something. The problem is, history is really difficult to prove. It is a belief in any case.

But maybe you could give some example?

Let's try this- I know the bible isn't true because I refuse to believe anything it says.

Am I being reasonable? Logical?

I accept that as your opinion. :)
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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8/3/2018 10:30:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2018 8:33:28 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/3/2018 2:13:17 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
But that's a circular argument. Right here, I've shown an example where the bible is not telling the truth.

You won't believe anything that says the bible isn't true, then say that shows the bible IS true.

I believe, if you can really prove something. The problem is, history is really difficult to prove. It is a belief in any case.

But maybe you could give some example?

Yes. The Romans kept very good records of there census. It did not occur under Herod and people did not have to return to their home towns.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Let's try this- I know the bible isn't true because I refuse to believe anything it says.

Am I being reasonable? Logical?

I accept that as your opinion. :)

Facts are not a matter of opinion.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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8/5/2018 5:53:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/3/2018 10:30:47 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Yes. The Romans kept very good records of there census. It did not occur under Herod and people did not have to return to their home towns.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The Anno Domini was developed about 500 AD. So, if ancient Romans have dates, they are in some other system. And it is possible that there happens mistake, when people combine different systems.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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8/5/2018 8:23:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2018 5:53:28 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/3/2018 10:30:47 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Yes. The Romans kept very good records of there census. It did not occur under Herod and people did not have to return to their home towns.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The Anno Domini was developed about 500 AD. So, if ancient Romans have dates, they are in some other system. And it is possible that there happens mistake, when people combine different systems.

But the bible says Herod was ruling when the census was made- he wasn't. And you won't address the fact no Roman census demanded returning to your place of birth- this would have caused chaos. It was an obvious invention to get Jesus supposedly born in Bethlehem.
12_13
Posts: 2,575
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8/6/2018 6:50:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/5/2018 8:23:09 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 8/5/2018 5:53:28 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/3/2018 10:30:47 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Yes. The Romans kept very good records of there census. It did not occur under Herod and people did not have to return to their home towns.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The Anno Domini was developed about 500 AD. So, if ancient Romans have dates, they are in some other system. And it is possible that there happens mistake, when people combine different systems.

But the bible says Herod was ruling when the census was made- he wasn't.

Unfortunately, you have no good reason to offer for me to believe that.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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8/7/2018 2:01:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/6/2018 6:50:44 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/5/2018 8:23:09 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 8/5/2018 5:53:28 PM, 12_13 wrote:
At 8/3/2018 10:30:47 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
Yes. The Romans kept very good records of there census. It did not occur under Herod and people did not have to return to their home towns.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The Anno Domini was developed about 500 AD. So, if ancient Romans have dates, they are in some other system. And it is possible that there happens mistake, when people combine different systems.

But the bible says Herod was ruling when the census was made- he wasn't.

Unfortunately, you have no good reason to offer for me to believe that.

Roman history from multiple, independent sources?

Are you really sure it isn't a case of you believing what you WANT to believe?

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