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Is There Faith In Faith?

Willows
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9/28/2018 12:55:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
One would have to be in a state of constant delusion or deliberately ignorant to not know that the possibility of there being a God is virtually zilch.

So, What remains for religious followers to tenuously cling onto their belief, Is the good old "F" word. Yes, "faith", That good old warm and fuzzy conviction that despite the odds their religion is the real thing.

But what is this faith?

Is it really faith in God?

Or could it be faith in what others have said about God?
Harikrish
Posts: 28,277
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9/28/2018 3:40:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Willows wrote:
One would have to be in a state of constant delusion or deliberately ignorant to not know that the possibility of there being a God is virtually zilch.

So, What remains for religious followers to tenuously cling onto their belief, Is the good old "F" word. Yes, "faith", That good old warm and fuzzy conviction that despite the odds their religion is the real thing.

But what is this faith?

Is it really faith in God?

Or could it be faith in what others have said about God?

Hebrews 11:1 ESV: Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, The conviction of things not seen. . .

So faith is a belief in things not seen and an expectation of things hope for.
Tradesecret
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9/28/2018 10:47:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift of God. The logical conclusion is that if God does not exist then people cannot believe in him. And if people do believe in him it is because God who must exist has given it to them.
Willows
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9/29/2018 1:15:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift of God. The logical conclusion is that if God does not exist then people cannot believe in him. And if people do believe in him it is because God who must exist has given it to them.

There is absolutely no logic in that whatsoever.
In fact, You would have to be pretty naive to go along with such absurdness.

It is tantamount to stating that people (who are stupid and gullible) believe in God, Therefore God actually exists.
Tradesecret
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9/30/2018 7:59:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift of God. The logical conclusion is that if God does not exist then people cannot believe in him. And if people do believe in him it is because God who must exist has given it to them.

Willow wrote:
There is absolutely no logic in that whatsoever.
In fact, You would have to be pretty naive to go along with such absurdness.

It is tantamount to stating that people (who are stupid and gullible) believe in God, Therefore God actually exists.

Why? Actually it only says that the faith we have to believe in God comes from God. If God has not given you faith, Then you won't believe. It is quite simple really. What you don't like is that puts you in a horrible situation and that is understandable. Of course if you did want to believe in God, You could always ask him for faith and see what happens. Now that would a conundrum because how could you ask someone who you don't believe in to give you something to help you to believe in. But that in my view is one of the reasons that proves God's existence. He does not need us to believe in him because he is self existent and yet he out of grace reveals himself as he desires.
Harikrish
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9/30/2018 8:34:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Tradesecret wrote:
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift of God. The logical conclusion is that if God does not exist then people cannot believe in him. And if people do believe in him it is because God who must exist has given it to them.

Willow wrote:
There is absolutely no logic in that whatsoever.
In fact, You would have to be pretty naive to go along with such absurdness.

It is tantamount to stating that people (who are stupid and gullible) believe in God, Therefore God actually exists.


Why? Actually it only says that the faith we have to believe in God comes from God. If God has not given you faith, Then you won't believe. It is quite simple really. What you don't like is that puts you in a horrible situation and that is understandable. Of course if you did want to believe in God, You could always ask him for faith and see what happens. Now that would a conundrum because how could you ask someone who you don't believe in to give you something to help you to believe in. But that in my view is one of the reasons that proves God's existence. He does not need us to believe in him because he is self existent and yet he out of grace reveals himself as he desires.
God is like your street corner flasher. He only reveals himself to those he is attracted to.
Tradesecret
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9/30/2018 10:58:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Harikrish wrote:

Tradesecret wrote:
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift of God. The logical conclusion is that if God does not exist then people cannot believe in him. And if people do believe in him it is because God who must exist has given it to them.

Willow wrote:
There is absolutely no logic in that whatsoever.
In fact, You would have to be pretty naive to go along with such absurdness.

It is tantamount to stating that people (who are stupid and gullible) believe in God, Therefore God actually exists.

Why? Actually it only says that the faith we have to believe in God comes from God. If God has not given you faith, Then you won't believe. It is quite simple really. What you don't like is that puts you in a horrible situation and that is understandable. Of course if you did want to believe in God, You could always ask him for faith and see what happens. Now that would a conundrum because how could you ask someone who you don't believe in to give you something to help you to believe in. But that in my view is one of the reasons that proves God's existence. He does not need us to believe in him because he is self existent and yet he out of grace reveals himself as he desires.

Hariskrish:
God is like your street corner flasher. He only reveals himself to those he is attracted to.

That might be how your god operates, The God of the bible however is not some kind of kiddie-fiddler. He is holy and just and reveals his character to those whom he chooses. Your words are very close to blasphemy, A most unspiritual trait.
Harikrish
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10/1/2018 1:39:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Harikrish wrote:


Tradesecret wrote:
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that faith is a gift of God. The logical conclusion is that if God does not exist then people cannot believe in him. And if people do believe in him it is because God who must exist has given it to them.

Willow wrote:
There is absolutely no logic in that whatsoever.
In fact, You would have to be pretty naive to go along with such absurdness.

It is tantamount to stating that people (who are stupid and gullible) believe in God, Therefore God actually exists.


Why? Actually it only says that the faith we have to believe in God comes from God. If God has not given you faith, Then you won't believe. It is quite simple really. What you don't like is that puts you in a horrible situation and that is understandable. Of course if you did want to believe in God, You could always ask him for faith and see what happens. Now that would a conundrum because how could you ask someone who you don't believe in to give you something to help you to believe in. But that in my view is one of the reasons that proves God's existence. He does not need us to believe in him because he is self existent and yet he out of grace reveals himself as he desires.

Hariskrish:
God is like your street corner flasher. He only reveals himself to those he is attracted to.


That might be how your god operates, The God of the bible however is not some kind of kiddie-fiddler. He is holy and just and reveals his character to those whom he chooses. Your words are very close to blasphemy, A most unspiritual trait.

You said God only reveals himself to those he chooses. That is exactly how the street corner flasher operates. That is the naked truth.
Tradesecret
Posts: 1,417
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10/2/2018 12:27:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Harikrish wrote:

"u said God only reveals himself to those he chooses. That is exactly how the street corner flasher operates. That is the naked truth. "

a street flasher reveals himself to people he chooses but often the case is he also reveals himself to people he does not choose. God only ever reveals himself - to those he chooses.

The first is a pervert who is actually not in control trying to control others. His or her intention is to give himself - herself some kind of gratification. His or her actions often reveal how out of control he or she is. And to whom they reveal is not always concealed to their specific viewers. On the other hand God is the master of the universe and whatsoever he does and chooses to do - always comes to pass. He chooses to whom he reveals his character - and unless he specifically wants you to know him, Then you won't and you can't. It can never be secretive or with evil intent - and it can never be accidental or recklessly done.

The two are quite significantly different that no comparison can be adequately made without doing injustice to the latter. And if that is your intention of making the comparison, All it does is actually reveal that your character is exactly the same as the kiddie fiddler. Are you a kiddie fiddler?
Tradesecret
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10/2/2018 4:56:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
One would have to be in a state of constant delusion or deliberately ignorant to not know that the possibility of there being a God is virtually zilch.

Please explain your statement. How do you come to this conclusion?

So, What remains for religious followers to tenuously cling onto their belief, Is the good old "F" word. Yes, "faith", That good old warm and fuzzy conviction that despite the odds their religion is the real thing.

But what is this faith? Faith is another word for trust. We trust in something so we follow it. I trust that this chair will hold me so I sit in it. This is based on my observation, My experience and indeed reason. Firstly, It looks large enough to hold my weight. It looks sound enough constructively to hold my weight. Experience tells me that is something looks big enough and sound enough then it probably will hold my weight. It is true that sometimes in the past a chair did not hold my weight - but given the cirumstances it looks ok. Hence I have faith - that it will hold me. I then sit down in faith trusting it will hold my weight. What is faith? It is trust in my ability to determine good reasons to do something.

Is it really faith in God?

I trust in God. For the same reasons as above. My observations, My experience, And logic and I can add revelation as well.

my observations tell me that as I look that god is good. He has created this world. He has provided me with oxygen to breathe. He has given me food to eat and water to drink. I have been placed into a family which loves me. I have two legs, Two arms, A nose, A mouth, And two eyes.

My experience tells me I can trust god. Things work in a logical way rather than a random manner. This shows stability and purpose. When I do something I see a reaction. Cause and effect. I pray and he answers my prayers. Sometimes he says no, Sometimes he says yes and sometimes he says wait. I look around and see mostly people that obey the law are looked after and people who disobey the law get into trouble. Yes sometimes this seems a little wrong, But overall and on average it is pretty good. People who normally drive safely get to where they want to go. And mostly people who drive drunkenly crash. Not every time - but more often than not.

Logic obviously and without any doubt at all - gives sustenance to the existence of God. Logic requires design not randomness. It requires formulas that don't change - it requires objective truth. Without these things - and therefore without God, Logic is nonsense.

Revelation speaks for itself.

Or could it be faith in what others have said about God?

I really feel sorry for you.
Willows
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10/2/2018 6:37:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
One would have to be in a state of constant delusion or deliberately ignorant to not know that the possibility of there being a God is virtually zilch.


Please explain your statement. How do you come to this conclusion?

So, What remains for religious followers to tenuously cling onto their belief, Is the good old "F" word. Yes, "faith", That good old warm and fuzzy conviction that despite the odds their religion is the real thing.

But what is this faith? Faith is another word for trust. We trust in something so we follow it. I trust that this chair will hold me so I sit in it. This is based on my observation, My experience and indeed reason. Firstly, It looks large enough to hold my weight. It looks sound enough constructively to hold my weight. Experience tells me that is something looks big enough and sound enough then it probably will hold my weight. It is true that sometimes in the past a chair did not hold my weight - but given the cirumstances it looks ok. Hence I have faith - that it will hold me. I then sit down in faith trusting it will hold my weight. What is faith? It is trust in my ability to determine good reasons to do something.

Is it really faith in God?

I trust in God. For the same reasons as above. My observations, My experience, And logic and I can add revelation as well.

my observations tell me that as I look that god is good. He has created this world. He has provided me with oxygen to breathe. He has given me food to eat and water to drink. I have been placed into a family which loves me. I have two legs, Two arms, A nose, A mouth, And two eyes.

My experience tells me I can trust god. Things work in a logical way rather than a random manner. This shows stability and purpose. When I do something I see a reaction. Cause and effect. I pray and he answers my prayers. Sometimes he says no, Sometimes he says yes and sometimes he says wait. I look around and see mostly people that obey the law are looked after and people who disobey the law get into trouble. Yes sometimes this seems a little wrong, But overall and on average it is pretty good. People who normally drive safely get to where they want to go. And mostly people who drive drunkenly crash. Not every time - but more often than not.


Logic obviously and without any doubt at all - gives sustenance to the existence of God. Logic requires design not randomness. It requires formulas that don't change - it requires objective truth. Without these things - and therefore without God, Logic is nonsense.


Revelation speaks for itself.


Or could it be faith in what others have said about God?

Isn't that what it all comes down to though?
You have faith in something that somebody told you about and you naively believed it.

You have faith in the chair you sit on because even Blind Freddy can check the construction.

However, You have faith in God with absolutely no checks in place whatsoever, Only the anecdotal outpourings of others who are, Let's face it, Liars leading you up the garden path.

Generations ago, Common people may have been excused for believing in God because they did not have the access to information and education that we do now.

One day you may get to learn that of all those who say they are religious, Very few actually do believe in God. Most go along with it for their own advantage or to gain the advantage over those who do foolishly believe such nonsense.
Tradesecret
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10/2/2018 7:20:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Isn't that what it all comes down to though?
You have faith in something that somebody told you about and you naively believed it.

You have faith in the chair you sit on because even Blind Freddy can check the construction.

However, You have faith in God with absolutely no checks in place whatsoever, Only the anecdotal outpourings of others who are, Let's face it, Liars leading you up the garden path.

Generations ago, Common people may have been excused for believing in God because they did not have the access to information and education that we do now.

One day you may get to learn that of all those who say they are religious, Very few actually do believe in God. Most go along with it for their own advantage or to gain the advantage over those who do foolishly believe such nonsense.

You are so daft you actually believe your own drivel. What checks are on you or your pathetic view? None. When someone does check you because you talk so much garbage, They ban you. But in the world without computers, What check is there on your lunacy? None at all. You go on about religion - but your views are weaker and more pathetic. If I were to take any of your views seriously I would have slit my views long ago. That is because they are so pathetic. No wonder your wife left you. No wonder your kids don't want to have anything to do with you. No wonder you drink so much.

In my world, Many people do believe in God, It is the minority who don't. They try and act brave in the face of foolishness, But in the end I can see how much they are tormented. But it is not my job to tell them otherwise. Most however, Realise that without god everything is meaningless and they soon - despite their intentions, Soon discover they really do believe in god and not only believe but want many others to do so as well.
Harikrish
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10/2/2018 8:26:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Isn't that what it all comes down to though?
You have faith in something that somebody told you about and you naively believed it.

You have faith in the chair you sit on because even Blind Freddy can check the construction.

However, You have faith in God with absolutely no checks in place whatsoever, Only the anecdotal outpourings of others who are, Let's face it, Liars leading you up the garden path.

Generations ago, Common people may have been excused for believing in God because they did not have the access to information and education that we do now.

One day you may get to learn that of all those who say they are religious, Very few actually do believe in God. Most go along with it for their own advantage or to gain the advantage over those who do foolishly believe such nonsense.


You are so daft you actually believe your own drivel. What checks are on you or your pathetic view? None. When someone does check you because you talk so much garbage, They ban you. But in the world without computers, What check is there on your lunacy? None at all. You go on about religion - but your views are weaker and more pathetic. If I were to take any of your views seriously I would have slit my views long ago. That is because they are so pathetic. No wonder your wife left you. No wonder your kids don't want to have anything to do with you. No wonder you drink so much.


In my world, Many people do believe in God, It is the minority who don't. They try and act brave in the face of foolishness, But in the end I can see how much they are tormented. But it is not my job to tell them otherwise. Most however, Realise that without god everything is meaningless and they soon - despite their intentions, Soon discover they really do believe in god and not only believe but want many others to do so as well.

Why Christians are told faith is a gift? It is hard to believe in Jesus and also believe in the scriptures because they contradict each other.

Jesus was a madman and demon possessed according to his family and the people who heard him speak.

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, They went out to take custody of Him, Saying, "He is out of His mind. "

John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him? . . .

Yet Christians are told to accept this deluded demon possessed madman (Jesus) despite what is family and people close to him said about his mental condition.
Tradesecret
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10/4/2018 2:02:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
hy Christians are told faith is a gift? It is hard to believe in Jesus and also believe in the scriptures because they contradict each other.

Christians are told that faith is a gift for numerous reasons. Firstly, It is something that comes from God, So that humanity cannot boast that he did anything to save himself. It is to reinforce the notion that God does the saving, Not humanity. Secondly, We are told it is a gift because it is. God loves his people and he reveals himself to those whom he chooses.

Jesus was a madman and demon possessed according to his family and the people who heard him speak.

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, They went out to take custody of Him, Saying, "He is out of His mind. "

John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him? . . .

Yet Christians are told to accept this deluded demon possessed madman (Jesus) despite what is family and people close to him said about his mental condition.

His family without the gift of faith did not know him as anything more than a human. When they saw him performing miracles or saying wise things, It did not fit with their understanding of humans, Even though he was their family and probably more so because he was their family. But even though we know that they did call him madman - - when the Spirit came and the gift of faith was given to them, They believed, His mother, Mary, And his brother James, And possibly other brothers as well. The point is - once they did think he was nuts - but then they had their minds changed. This was the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives by the gift of faith - the promise given them by the Father. James wrote a book - and Mary along with the woman preached his gospel in all of the world.

The Pharisees thought he was mad - and many of them remained that way until the died because they never received the gift of faith to believer. Yet other Pharisees did - Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, And other notables including Saul, Who would become Paul. Each of these like Jesus' family were transformed by the Spirit of God. They did not continue to see him as mad, But as the messiah. If you see him as mad, It is because you have not yet received the gift of faith - the promised Holy Spirit. I will pray for you.
Harikrish
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10/5/2018 5:36:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
hy Christians are told faith is a gift? It is hard to believe in Jesus and also believe in the scriptures because they contradict each other.

Christians are told that faith is a gift for numerous reasons. Firstly, It is something that comes from God, So that humanity cannot boast that he did anything to save himself. It is to reinforce the notion that God does the saving, Not humanity. Secondly, We are told it is a gift because it is. God loves his people and he reveals himself to those whom he chooses.

Jesus was a madman and demon possessed according to his family and the people who heard him speak.

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, They went out to take custody of Him, Saying, "He is out of His mind. "

John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him? . . .

Yet Christians are told to accept this deluded demon possessed madman (Jesus) despite what is family and people close to him said about his mental condition.

His family without the gift of faith did not know him as anything more than a human. When they saw him performing miracles or saying wise things, It did not fit with their understanding of humans, Even though he was their family and probably more so because he was their family. But even though we know that they did call him madman - - when the Spirit came and the gift of faith was given to them, They believed, His mother, Mary, And his brother James, And possibly other brothers as well. The point is - once they did think he was nuts - but then they had their minds changed. This was the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives by the gift of faith - the promise given them by the Father. James wrote a book - and Mary along with the woman preached his gospel in all of the world.

The Pharisees thought he was mad - and many of them remained that way until the died because they never received the gift of faith to believer. Yet other Pharisees did - Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, And other notables including Saul, Who would become Paul. Each of these like Jesus' family were transformed by the Spirit of God. They did not continue to see him as mad, But as the messiah. If you see him as mad, It is because you have not yet received the gift of faith - the promised Holy Spirit. I will pray for you.


So you have come full circle and agree God is like the street corner flasher who only reveals himself to those he chooses. Scriptures confirm that.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, But few are chosen. "
Tradesecret
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10/5/2018 10:59:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So you have come full circle and agree God is like the street corner flasher who only reveals himself to those he chooses. Scriptures confirm that.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, But few are chosen. "

what I know is this: you have rejected the holy God who made this world; but I am praying that God by his Spirit will move your heart so that you repent of your sins, And turn to Jesus for his redemption.
Harikrish
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10/5/2018 11:35:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
So you have come full circle and agree God is like the street corner flasher who only reveals himself to those he chooses. Scriptures confirm that.

Matthew 22:14 For many are called, But few are chosen. "


what I know is this: you have rejected the holy God who made this world; but I am praying that God by his Spirit will move your heart so that you repent of your sins, And turn to Jesus for his redemption.

The futility of prayer. Jesus prayed for the safety of his disciples. They were all put to death.
John 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, But they are still in the world, And I am coming to you. Holy Father, Protect them by the power of[b] your name, The name you gave me, So that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by[c] that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Jesus prayed to God to take away the cup he drank from because he had become an alcoholic.
Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, He fell facedown and prayed, "My Father, If it is possible, Let this cup pass from Me. Yet not as I will, But as You will. "

Jesus lost his faith on the cross and lamented.
Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, Lema sabachthani? " which means, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken Me? "

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