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Why Are Churches Homophobic?

Willows
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10/17/2018 8:25:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have heard it from many Church denominations that they do not hate homosexuals but rather, Hate what they do.

Given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else anyway?
missmedic
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10/17/2018 4:39:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Willows wrote:
I have heard it from many Church denominations that they do not hate homosexuals but rather, Hate what they do.

Given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else anyway?

Homosexuals typically do not produce offspring for indoctrination, Thus undermining the churches very lifeblood.
They hate as they are told to. The word "abomination" is by definition is a promotion of hatred.
Willows
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10/17/2018 11:40:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
, Missmedic wrote:
Willows wrote:
I have heard it from many Church denominations that they do not hate homosexuals but rather, Hate what they do.

Given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else anyway?

Homosexuals typically do not produce offspring for indoctrination, Thus undermining the churches very lifeblood.
They hate as they are told to. The word "abomination" is by definition is a promotion of hatred.

By the same token, Infertile couples should not be allowed to continue a marriage and single people should be shunned.

Whichever way one looks at it, Any reasoning used by Churches seems ridiculous in this day and age.

The problem with all religious institutions is their adherence to ancient doctrines which in turns attracts those who harbor prejudiced beliefs in the first place.
ken1122
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10/18/2018 3:45:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The thread title is about churches being homophobic, Then you claim they hate homosexuals. Phobia is about fear; not hate. Which is it?
ken1122
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10/18/2018 8:17:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have heard it from many Church denominations that they do not hate homosexuals but rather, Hate what they do.

Given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else anyway?

My guess is they judge it a sin the same way they judge a man and a woman who aren't married sinners if they are having sex. If their bible says it's a sin, They call it a sin
WisdomOfAges
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10/18/2018 9:02:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ask the PEDOPHILE PSYCHOPATH Roman Catholic Church preacher that rapes the young boys in the name of JESUS. . . .
ken1122
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10/19/2018 4:07:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Wisdomofages (quote)
Ask the PEDOPHILE PSYCHOPATH Roman Catholic Church preacher that rapes the young boys in the name of JESUS. . . .

(reply)
If you know any, Get them to respond; we can only ask those who respond.
Willows
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10/19/2018 6:56:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
ken1122 wrote:
The thread title is about churches being homophobic, Then you claim they hate homosexuals. Phobia is about fear; not hate. Which is it?

homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Get your facts right.
Otherwise, They are not facts, Are they?
Swagnarok
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10/20/2018 7:20:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Christianity long, Long predates the modern notion that people who engage in homosexual acts are a distinct class of people who can be discriminated against. It is an act, Regardless of whether you're genetically predisposed to it or not, So the term "homophobia" is nonsensical. If our society has decided that enough people do it anyways that it does more bad than good to ban it, Or that the act simply isn't harmful overall and thus oughtn't be banned, Then so be it. But to compare the church's disapproval of homosexual acts to, Say, Hatred of black people is a stupid and outrageous comparison.
Rest in Peace DDO (2007-2018)
Swagnarok
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10/20/2018 7:29:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is little tangible difference between anti-sodomy laws and laws against possession of marijuana. And yet we don't use terms like "stonerphobia".
Rest in Peace DDO (2007-2018)
Tradesecret
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10/21/2018 3:27:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have heard it from many Church denominations that they do not hate homosexuals but rather, Hate what they do.

Given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else any


Yes, A deliberate lie to misrepresent what Christians teach. What Christians actually teach is that they love the sinner but hate the sin. This is as anyone with half a brain will notice is quite different entirely to the statement you made.

Christians hate sin. Any form of sin. Sin is defined as anything that does not conform with the standards of God. Christians hate sin as they are commanded to. They love holiness which is what they are commanded to do. Christians are also told to love their enemies. Hence they are to love their enemies - which means dying for them if they have to. But it means hating sin. Not hating sinners.

Christians teach that murder is sin. Christians teach that adultery is sin. Christians teach that disobedience to parents is sin. Christians teach that lying is sin. Christians teach that greediness is sin. Covetousness is sin. Homosexuality is sin. Pornography is sin. Masturbation is sin. Drunkenness is sin. Not going to church is sin. Not obeying God is sin. Driving too fast on the road is sin.

All of these things are sin and I am pretty sure covers every person in this world in one way or the other. In fact the Bible tells us that EVERYONE is sinner and sins. This includes my my mum and my dad and my wife and my children and it also includes me. I hate my sin and everytime I sin - I regret it and hate myself for doing it. Yet, If Christians hate everyone who sins he would hate everyone. Yet the Bible does not tell us to hate sinners - but rather to love sinners. Hate the sin - love the sinner. And what this means is this: treat them how you would like to be treated yourself. Don't abuse them. Don't treat them like a leper. Don't isolate them or hurt them or even insult them. But love them embrace them.

It is a LIE to say that Christians are homophobic. Christians do not have to agree with homosexuality but this does not make them homophobic unless the definition of homophobic is simply those who disagree with homosexuality.
Willows
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10/21/2018 4:07:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Swagnarok wrote:
Christianity long, Long predates the modern notion that people who engage in homosexual acts are a distinct class of people who can be discriminated against. It is an act, Regardless of whether you're genetically predisposed to it or not, So the term "homophobia" is nonsensical. If our society has decided that enough people do it anyways that it does more bad than good to ban it, Or that the act simply isn't harmful overall and thus oughtn't be banned, Then so be it. But to compare the church's disapproval of homosexual acts to, Say, Hatred of black people is a stupid and outrageous comparison.

Let's get the story right, Shall we?
The "modern notion that people who engage in homosexual acts are a distinct class of people who can be discriminated against" comes from extremely draconian and primitive religious doctrines.

Whether it be racial or homosexual hatred, They are both hatreds of minority groups for no other reason than for utter ignorance and arrogance. . . . . And decent, Modern, Civilized society abhor both with equal contempt.

What the heck gives you the idea that one is worse than the other?
Willows
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10/21/2018 4:22:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
I have heard it from many Church denominations that they do not hate homosexuals but rather, Hate what they do.

Given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else any


Yes, A deliberate lie to misrepresent what Christians teach. What Christians actually teach is that they love the sinner but hate the sin. This is as anyone with half a brain will notice is quite different entirely to the statement you made.

Christians hate sin. Any form of sin. Sin is defined as anything that does not conform with the standards of God. Christians hate sin as they are commanded to. They love holiness which is what they are commanded to do. Christians are also told to love their enemies. Hence they are to love their enemies - which means dying for them if they have to. But it means hating sin. Not hating sinners.

Christians teach that murder is sin. Christians teach that adultery is sin. Christians teach that disobedience to parents is sin. Christians teach that lying is sin. Christians teach that greediness is sin. Covetousness is sin. Homosexuality is sin. Pornography is sin. Masturbation is sin. Drunkenness is sin. Not going to church is sin. Not obeying God is sin. Driving too fast on the road is sin.

All of these things are sin and I am pretty sure covers every person in this world in one way or the other. In fact the Bible tells us that EVERYONE is sinner and sins. This includes my my mum and my dad and my wife and my children and it also includes me. I hate my sin and everytime I sin - I regret it and hate myself for doing it. Yet, If Christians hate everyone who sins he would hate everyone. Yet the Bible does not tell us to hate sinners - but rather to love sinners. Hate the sin - love the sinner. And what this means is this: treat them how you would like to be treated yourself. Don't abuse them. Don't treat them like a leper. Don't isolate them or hurt them or even insult them. But love them embrace them.

It is a LIE to say that Christians are homophobic.

It is no lie to state that Christians are homophobic. . . . . .
homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Christians show dislike and prejudice against homosexual people. . . . . They are homophobic.

What the heck gives a Christian the right to say that (for some obscure, Undisclosed reason) homosexuality is a sin?
Tradesecret
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10/21/2018 10:26:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is no lie to state that Christians are homophobic. . . . . .

It is a lie to say that Christians are homophobic.

homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Christians do not show a dislike for homosexual people. They embrace them as humans like the rest of the community. On the other hand, Non-Christians show a complete dislike for Christians and Christian thinking, Does this make them homophobic? Or Christianphobic or truthphobic? Christians don't show prejudice against homosexuals. Christians treat all people alike including those who are intentionally sinning against God.

Christians show dislike and prejudice against homosexual people. . . . . They are homophobic.

What a load of nonsense. In the definition above - a homophobic is not someone who simply disagrees with homosexuality. Christians do disagree with homosexuality - but that does not make them homophobic. They don't dislike homosexuals. That is just dumb to say. Go into any church and you will find homosexuals who are embraced by the church, Just as any person who comes to church is embraced and welcomed. I disagree with those who commit domestic violence against their children or their spouses. I would call those persons sinners. Yet I would still embrace them as a Christian. You really need to get over the fact that not everyone agrees with you.

What the heck gives a Christian the right to say that (for some obscure, Undisclosed reason) homosexuality is a sin?

Christians don't have a right to call homosexuality a sin. But God does. That is because HE is the one who defines right and wrong. He has his reasons. Christians are called upon to uphold what God calls good and to call to account those things which God calls sin. Those who reject God's prerogative to define right and wrong are in the same boat as Adam and Eve, Who thought they knew better than God.
Christians of course desire that everyone including sinners lives a good and happy and healthy life. They want people to fulfil their lives and to contribute towards society. Yet Christians also have become aware that these things are more likely to occur if people follow the path God desires for them in accordance with his wisdom and not according to the foolishness of humanity. God's way leads to abundant life - but following our wisdom leads ultimately to death.

Now is this undisclosed? I don't think so. I think it is pretty much a transparent position. The world thinks it can do what it wants - and Christians think we ought to abide by the owner of the world. There is a conflict here and this will cause problems for all of those on the opposite side of the equation.

but just for the record - if we were to follow the world's teaching - we would actually have a right to call homosexuality a sin. Why? Because under the world's teaching, There is no absolute right or wrong - and everyone is a law unto themselves. If we wanted to call it a sin then what right would you have to say we don't have that right? Where do you think your rights to tell us how to live come from? This is the problem for all people who choose to live apart from the ways of God - it removes any semblance of rights. It only provides for the survival of the fittest - in however that looks.
Willows
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10/22/2018 12:32:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
It is no lie to state that Christians are homophobic. . . . . .

It is a lie to say that Christians are homophobic.

homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Christians do not show a dislike for homosexual people. They embrace them as humans like the rest of the community. On the other hand, Non-Christians show a complete dislike for Christians and Christian thinking, Does this make them homophobic? Or Christianphobic or truthphobic? Christians don't show prejudice against homosexuals. Christians treat all people alike including those who are intentionally sinning against God.

Christians show dislike and prejudice against homosexual people. . . . . They are homophobic.


What a load of nonsense. In the definition above - a homophobic is not someone who simply disagrees with homosexuality. Christians do disagree with homosexuality - but that does not make them homophobic. They don't dislike homosexuals. That is just dumb to say. Go into any church and you will find homosexuals who are embraced by the church, Just as any person who comes to church is embraced and welcomed. I disagree with those who commit domestic violence against their children or their spouses. I would call those persons sinners. Yet I would still embrace them as a Christian. You really need to get over the fact that not everyone agrees with you.

What the heck gives a Christian the right to say that (for some obscure, Undisclosed reason) homosexuality is a sin?

Christians don't have a right to call homosexuality a sin. But God does. That is because HE is the one who defines right and wrong. He has his reasons. Christians are called upon to uphold what God calls good and to call to account those things which God calls sin. Those who reject God's prerogative to define right and wrong are in the same boat as Adam and Eve, Who thought they knew better than God.
Christians of course desire that everyone including sinners lives a good and happy and healthy life. They want people to fulfil their lives and to contribute towards society. Yet Christians also have become aware that these things are more likely to occur if people follow the path God desires for them in accordance with his wisdom and not according to the foolishness of humanity. God's way leads to abundant life - but following our wisdom leads ultimately to death.

Now is this undisclosed? I don't think so. I think it is pretty much a transparent position. The world thinks it can do what it wants - and Christians think we ought to abide by the owner of the world. There is a conflict here and this will cause problems for all of those on the opposite side of the equation.


but just for the record - if we were to follow the world's teaching - we would actually have a right to call homosexuality a sin. Why? Because under the world's teaching, There is no absolute right or wrong - and everyone is a law unto themselves. If we wanted to call it a sin then what right would you have to say we don't have that right? Where do you think your rights to tell us how to live come from? This is the problem for all people who choose to live apart from the ways of God - it removes any semblance of rights. It only provides for the survival of the fittest - in however that looks.

Wrong.
Christians do show a dislike and are prejudiced towards homosexual people. Christian churches do not marry homosexuals nor do they allow homosexuals to be members.

I think it is a complete cop-out and deceiving that Christians use the cover of their faith by saying. . . . . .
"God told us homosexuality is a sin, It wasn't my decision; no siree. . . Not me. . . . . God wants me to prejudge and shun homosexuals. . . . . Oh, But I still love them. "

What a load of absolute poppycock.
The very same book of the Bible (Leviticus) that prescribes the condemnation of homosexuality also prescribes that men should grow their beards and hair. How many Christian men walk around with long hair and beards?

It is a hypocritical double-standard by churches to cherry-pick from the Bible to suit their own self-centered, Ignorant, Elitist needs.

Transparent indeed!
If the "position" is so transparent as you say, Why is it that you still seem to find it difficult to answer the question as per the thread. That is; "given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else anyway? "

If you still have difficulty with the word "hate", You can substitute whatever you like, E. G. "at odds with".

So, Let's hear your "transparent", Non-evasive, Unambiguous answer. That is, If you have one or if indeed, There is an answer.
Willows
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10/22/2018 12:40:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Swagnarok wrote:
There is little tangible difference between anti-sodomy laws and laws against possession of marijuana. And yet we don't use terms like "stonerphobia".

I didn't write the Oxford dictionary, Perhaps you could ask the Oxford Press as to the definition of homophobia.

Nevertheless, Accepting the definition as it is I still find it odd that Christians are homophobic.

Perhaps we should transfer the word "queer" meaning homosexual to mean "religious".

. . . . . . . . "Hey, Did you see all those queers walk out of that Church? "
ken1122
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10/22/2018 2:09:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
ken1122 wrote:
The thread title is about churches being homophobic, Then you claim they hate ::homosexuals. Phobia is about fear; not hate. Which is it?

Willows wrote:
homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Get your facts right.
Otherwise, They are not facts, Are they?

I submit the churches have no problem with Homosexual people, They have a problem with Homosexual activity. If Churches were homophobic according to the definition you provided, They would dislike homosexuals no matter what they did, And they would have no problem with Heterosexuals who engage in Homosexual activity; which is not the case. Churches have a problem with people who engage in Heterosexual activity outside of marriage also; you gonna accuse Churches of being Heterophobia? Churches take issue with specific activities. It doesn"t matter if you"re gay, Straight, Or whatever; if you engage in those activities that they have a problem with, They have a problem with YOU! Simple as that.
Willows
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10/22/2018 2:48:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
ken1122 wrote:
ken1122 wrote:
The thread title is about churches being homophobic, Then you claim they hate ::homosexuals. Phobia is about fear; not hate. Which is it?

Willows wrote:
homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Get your facts right.
Otherwise, They are not facts, Are they?

I submit the churches have no problem with Homosexual people, They have a problem with Homosexual activity. If Churches were homophobic according to the definition you provided, They would dislike homosexuals no matter what they did, And they would have no problem with Heterosexuals who engage in Homosexual activity; which is not the case. Churches have a problem with people who engage in Heterosexual activity outside of marriage also; you gonna accuse Churches of being Heterophobia? Churches take issue with specific activities. It doesn"t matter if you"re gay, Straight, Or whatever; if you engage in those activities that they have a problem with, They have a problem with YOU! Simple as that.

The definition I properly quoted from the Oxford Dictionary is quite clear. . . . Churches are homophobic.
If a Church has a problem with homosexual "activity", It has a problem with homosexuals.

What on earth is the problem with homosexuals being active?
ken1122
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10/22/2018 3:51:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
ken1122 wrote:
The thread title is about churches being homophobic, Then you claim they
homosexuals. Phobia is about fear; not hate. Which is it?

Willows wrote:
homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Get your facts right.
Otherwise, They are not facts, Are they?

ken1122 wrote:
I submit the churches have no problem with Homosexual people, They have a problem with Homosexual activity. If Churches were homophobic according to the definition you provided, They would dislike homosexuals no matter what they did, And they would have no problem with Heterosexuals who engage in Homosexual activity; which is not the case. Churches have a problem with people who engage in Heterosexual activity outside of marriage also; you gonna accuse Churches of being Heterophobia? Churches take issue with specific activities. It doesn"t matter if you"re gay, Straight, Or whatever; if you engage in those activities that they have a problem with, They have a problem with YOU! Simple as that.

Willows wrote:
The definition I properly quoted from the Oxford Dictionary is quite clear. . . . Churches are homophobic.
If a Church has a problem with homosexual "activity", It has a problem with homosexuals.

ken1122 wrote:
No; believe it or not, It is possible to be okay with people who are have a desire to do wrong, As long as they refrain from it.

Willows wrote:
What on earth is the problem with homosexuals being active?

ken1122 wrote:
What on earth is the problem with unmarried heterosexuals being active?
Willows
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10/22/2018 4:33:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
ken1122 wrote:
ken1122 wrote:
The thread title is about churches being homophobic, Then you claim they
homosexuals. Phobia is about fear; not hate. Which is it?

Willows wrote:
homophobic
adjective
having or showing a dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.
"homophobic remarks"
(Oxford dictionary)

Get your facts right.
Otherwise, They are not facts, Are they?

ken1122 wrote:
I submit the churches have no problem with Homosexual people, They have a problem with Homosexual activity. If Churches were homophobic according to the definition you provided, They would dislike homosexuals no matter what they did, And they would have no problem with Heterosexuals who engage in Homosexual activity; which is not the case. Churches have a problem with people who engage in Heterosexual activity outside of marriage also; you gonna accuse Churches of being Heterophobia? Churches take issue with specific activities. It doesn"t matter if you"re gay, Straight, Or whatever; if you engage in those activities that they have a problem with, They have a problem with YOU! Simple as that.

Willows wrote:
The definition I properly quoted from the Oxford Dictionary is quite clear. . . . Churches are homophobic.
If a Church has a problem with homosexual "activity", It has a problem with homosexuals.

ken1122 wrote:
No; believe it or not, It is possible to be okay with people who are have a desire to do wrong, As long as they refrain from it.

Willows wrote:
What on earth is the problem with homosexuals being active?

ken1122 wrote:
What on earth is the problem with unmarried heterosexuals being active?

I did ask a question, So was the thread a question.
You have a profound problem answering it and the fact that you answered with a converse question highlights my assertion.
ken1122
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10/22/2018 4:58:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
willows said:
I did ask a question, So was the thread a question.
You have a profound problem answering it and the fact that you answered with a converse question highlights my assertion.

ken1122 said:
You asked a question you should be asking someone who represents churches; I don"t represent churches. I was just making the point that Churches aren"t homophobic, They just have a problem with homosexual activity (and a plethora of other things) Having a problem with homosexual activity does not make you homophobic; according to the definition you provided.
Tradesecret
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10/22/2018 6:20:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Wrong.
Christians do show a dislike and are prejudiced towards homosexual people. Christian churches do not marry homosexuals nor do they allow homosexuals to be members.


Sorry this is not prejudice. There are lots of people I would not agree too marry whoever they liked. Brothers should not marry sisters. Is this prejudice? Adults should not marry babies? Is this prejudice? No. Why not?

Who said we churches would not allow homosexuals to be members? You are showing your bias and prejudice.

I think it is a complete cop-out and deceiving that Christians use the cover of their faith by saying. . . . . .
"God told us homosexuality is a sin, It wasn't my decision; no siree. . . Not me. . . . . God wants me to prejudge and shun homosexuals. . . . . Oh, But I still love them. "


Why is it a cop out? What a strange and what a STUPID thing to say. If God said that homosexuality was fine and that hetro-sexuality was sinful then I would agree with that point of view. You see, Willow, It is God who decides in my view what is right and what is wrong. You on other hand like Adam and Eve want that decision for yourself. I don't have a desire to actually decide for myself. Now that God has disagreed with it, I can find reasons and make arguments for why not. But so what?

You see, I don't make the decision. It is not a cop out - just admitting and conceding that I am not the one with authority to make that decision. You on the other hand usurp authority ultra vires all the time. Our laws of the land are made by people with authority, Not just individuals who want to have a say.

What a load of absolute poppycock.
The very same book of the Bible (Leviticus) that prescribes the condemnation of homosexuality also prescribes that men should grow their beards and hair. How many Christian men walk around with long hair and beards?

Yes that is true about the bible in the OT prescribing such a position. So people who don't agree with that law need to be able to explain why or why not they don't subscribe to it. There are many who do subscribe to it and there are many who don't. I for instance don't. The reason for that is that I see this law as substantially about distinguishing Israel from the nations about it and I don't see it as a moral law, So much as a seed law. Homosexuality on the other hand is neither about nationalism or a seed law but is what the reformers called a moral law. Hence its continuance remains. I doubt you have considered these distinctions and probably find them a cop out. Yet, For me and for many others they enable us to make distinctions. We know the OT law of do not murder remains. Yet we also know that the food laws do not remain in accordance with the NT. The question is - what is the difference? And the answer is Christ.

It is a hypocritical double-standard by churches to cherry-pick from the Bible to suit their own self-centered, Ignorant, Elitist needs.

no I totally disagree. It is more about being consistent with our understanding of the Scriptures. We don't want to be double standards people - we know too many people find enough faults without being intentionally so. I think it is a cop out that you are making. You don't want to spend the time actually doing your homework about these matters. You would rather take the lazy approach and just say hypocrite. That is the cop out.

Transparent indeed!
If the "position" is so transparent as you say, Why is it that you still seem to find it difficult to answer the question as per the thread. That is; "given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else anyway? "

It is transparent. The reason I am not answering your question is because it is what lawyers call leading. It is not a real question - but one designed with an answer already implicit. In other words it is a "dumb" question.

If you still have difficulty with the word "hate", You can substitute whatever you like, E. G. "at odds with". See above.

So, Let's hear your "transparent", Non-evasive, Unambiguous answer. That is, If you have one or if indeed, There is an answer
.

Again see above. Ask the question in a way that is not leading and then perhaps I will attempt to answer the substance of it. At the moment - your question implies a particular answer which implies the opposite as well. Ask a genuine question.
JJ50
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10/22/2018 7:47:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are many Christians who are gay, And some are members of the clergy. Only in the mind of unpleasant bigots is there anything wrong with being gay and marrying someone of the same sex.
Willows
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10/22/2018 9:12:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
JJ50 wrote:
There are many Christians who are gay, And some are members of the clergy. Only in the mind of unpleasant bigots is there anything wrong with being gay and marrying someone of the same sex.

Exactly.
It is my contention though that there are many unpleasant bigots who, As is customary of bigotry, Deny their bigotry.

Furthermore, There are many bigots who use their religion to hide behind by stating that "it is because God said so" or, "it is a doctrine of my Church".

Yeah right. . . . . And I'm a blind monkey's uncle.
Willows
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10/22/2018 9:26:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Wrong.
Christians do show a dislike and are prejudiced towards homosexual people. Christian churches do not marry homosexuals nor do they allow homosexuals to be members.


Sorry this is not prejudice. There are lots of people I would not agree too marry whoever they liked. Brothers should not marry sisters. Is this prejudice? Adults should not marry babies? Is this prejudice? No. Why not?

Who said we churches would not allow homosexuals to be members? You are showing your bias and prejudice.


I think it is a complete cop-out and deceiving that Christians use the cover of their faith by saying. . . . . .
"God told us homosexuality is a sin, It wasn't my decision; no siree. . . Not me. . . . . God wants me to prejudge and shun homosexuals. . . . . Oh, But I still love them. "


Why is it a cop out? What a strange and what a STUPID thing to say. If God said that homosexuality was fine and that hetro-sexuality was sinful then I would agree with that point of view. You see, Willow, It is God who decides in my view what is right and what is wrong. You on other hand like Adam and Eve want that decision for yourself. I don't have a desire to actually decide for myself. Now that God has disagreed with it, I can find reasons and make arguments for why not. But so what?

You see, I don't make the decision. It is not a cop out - just admitting and conceding that I am not the one with authority to make that decision. You on the other hand usurp authority ultra vires all the time. Our laws of the land are made by people with authority, Not just individuals who want to have a say.

What a load of absolute poppycock.
The very same book of the Bible (Leviticus) that prescribes the condemnation of homosexuality also prescribes that men should grow their beards and hair. How many Christian men walk around with long hair and beards?


Yes that is true about the bible in the OT prescribing such a position. So people who don't agree with that law need to be able to explain why or why not they don't subscribe to it. There are many who do subscribe to it and there are many who don't. I for instance don't. The reason for that is that I see this law as substantially about distinguishing Israel from the nations about it and I don't see it as a moral law, So much as a seed law. Homosexuality on the other hand is neither about nationalism or a seed law but is what the reformers called a moral law. Hence its continuance remains. I doubt you have considered these distinctions and probably find them a cop out. Yet, For me and for many others they enable us to make distinctions. We know the OT law of do not murder remains. Yet we also know that the food laws do not remain in accordance with the NT. The question is - what is the difference? And the answer is Christ.

It is a hypocritical double-standard by churches to cherry-pick from the Bible to suit their own self-centered, Ignorant, Elitist needs.

no I totally disagree. It is more about being consistent with our understanding of the Scriptures. We don't want to be double standards people - we know too many people find enough faults without being intentionally so. I think it is a cop out that you are making. You don't want to spend the time actually doing your homework about these matters. You would rather take the lazy approach and just say hypocrite. That is the cop out.

Transparent indeed!
If the "position" is so transparent as you say, Why is it that you still seem to find it difficult to answer the question as per the thread. That is; "given that homosexuals are the same as everybody else then why hate what they do when it is the same as everyone else anyway? "

It is transparent. The reason I am not answering your question is because it is what lawyers call leading. It is not a real question - but one designed with an answer already implicit. In other words it is a "dumb" question.

If you still have difficulty with the word "hate", You can substitute whatever you like, E. G. "at odds with". See above.

So, Let's hear your "transparent", Non-evasive, Unambiguous answer. That is, If you have one or if indeed, There is an answer
.

Again see above. Ask the question in a way that is not leading and then perhaps I will attempt to answer the substance of it. At the moment - your question implies a particular answer which implies the opposite as well. Ask a genuine question.

I get your point, But, This is not a court of law, It is a forum where there is no winning or losing but we thrash out our ideas in a think-tank fashion.

Yes, It is a leading question but it is genuine and pivotal in understanding what Christians think is sinful or wrong about what homosexuals practice.

It is my contention that Christians (and other religions) do not know why homosexuality is wrong which is why I and most other thinking people in society quite rightly label such people as prejudiced and hateful.

Both characteristics are indicative of bigotry, Ignorance, And arrogance and it simply is not good enough for Christians to continually make up lame excuses about answering the very simple question, "why".
ken1122
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10/22/2018 12:49:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Willows said:
It is my contention that Christians (and other religions) do not know why homosexuality is wrong which is why I and most other thinking people in society quite rightly label such people as prejudiced and hateful.

Ken1122 said:
They say it is wrong because they believe God says it is wrong! "Because God said it" may not be good enough for you, But it is good enough for them. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand.
Tradesecret
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10/22/2018 9:36:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I get your point, But, This is not a court of law, It is a forum where there is no winning or losing but we thrash out our ideas in a think-tank fashion.

Pleased to see you understand this. That is a helpful contribution to the topic at hand. Yet, I do not think "leading questions" contribute to a discussion because such questions are not fact finding questions, They are intentionally "closed questions" which assume the answer is already known. In other words, Leading questions are unable to help in the thrashing out of ideas because the person using the question has already made up their mind. Lawyers always use leading questions in cross examination but they never ask a question they don't know the answer to. It is the nature of the beast. But it is never about fact finding. It is about catching people out. That is quite different to a forum that is supposed to thrash ideas out.

Yes, It is a leading question but it is genuine and pivotal in understanding what Christians think is sinful or wrong about what homosexuals practice.

I disagree. You assume because Christians disagree with homosexuality that they are homophobic. You assume that they therefore shun and isolate them. You don't actually consider the facts or even their words. In fact you reject any fact or words they might say to the contrary. This is why you are not really trying to thrash out ideas but have a different agenda. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that Christians don't highlight homosexuality as any more sinful than anything else that God says is sinful, Yet you continually dismiss these words as nothing more than words.

It is my contention that Christians (and other religions) do not know why homosexuality is wrong which is why I and most other thinking people in society quite rightly label such people as prejudiced and hateful.

Yes, Now that is true. It is true that is your contention or your conclusion. This is what you repeat and why it is also true you will never find a different conclusion. You start with a conclusion and then everything you see afterwards fits that position. It is a common fallacy. It is however untrue that Christians do not know why homosexuality is wrong. Christians take the view that God determines what is right and what is wrong. This was how it was from the beginning and how it remains until this day. Non-Christians use other sources for their determination of right and wrong. Some use democracy. Whatever the majority think is right or wrong is right or wrong. When the majority changes, So does the determination of the object's rightness or wrongness. Some use their parent's version of right and wrong. Others use their culture's sense of right and wrong. Some say it depends on the circumstances. Some use tradition. Some try and use science or biology or nature. For instance, Many homosexuals rely upon the fact that homosexuality is common among many different species of animal so it must be natural. What they ignore is that many species of animal also eat their young so this must be natural as well. Some say that the ends justifies the means - the utilitarian principle determines right and wrong. The greater good for the greatest number. As you can see, There are many ways in which people come to conclusions for what is right and what is wrong. Christians say - God not man decides. I suggest to you that whatever position you take on making a determination of right and wrong - it is going to end up with someone feeling prejudiced and hated even if it is not intentionally meant to be the case. Why? Because everyone thinks they are right.

Both characteristics are indicative of bigotry, Ignorance, And arrogance and it simply is not good enough for Christians to continually make up lame excuses about answering the very simple question, "why".

I think that ignorance and arrogance are something that everyone is guilty of. With respect many of the comments you make on here demonstrate significant ignorance. And I suspect that most people on this forum would if asked, Describe you as arrogant. Hence you yourself fit the bill of a bigot. Yet, That would take all of the fun out of it wouldn't?
Willows
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10/23/2018 10:54:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
ken1122 wrote:
Willows said:
It is my contention that Christians (and other religions) do not know why homosexuality is wrong which is why I and most other thinking people in society quite rightly label such people as prejudiced and hateful.

Ken1122 said:
They say it is wrong because they believe God says it is wrong! "Because God said it" may not be good enough for you, But it is good enough for them. I don't understand why this is so hard for you to understand.

I understand it all right.

It is simply not credible nor acceptable for Christians to say "God says it is wrong" and if you have followed my posts, In particular, #15 I have fully justified my point.

According to the Bible, God decrees many things but do Christians follow them all? No, They don't. They follow only the decrees that suit them or more likely fit into their already ignorant and prejudiced minds, For example, Homophobia.

Does God explain why the hatred towards homosexuals is justified?
No, He doesn't.
Have Christians ever explained what homosexuals do that is sinful?
No, They haven't.
Is there anything that homosexuals do that others don't that warrants hatred.
No there isn't.

Could it be that Christians are hateful towards others for no other reason than out of sheer ignorance and arrogance?
Yes.
Willows
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10/23/2018 11:05:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
I get your point, But, This is not a court of law, It is a forum where there is no winning or losing but we thrash out our ideas in a think-tank fashion.

Pleased to see you understand this. That is a helpful contribution to the topic at hand. Yet, I do not think "leading questions" contribute to a discussion because such questions are not fact finding questions, They are intentionally "closed questions" which assume the answer is already known. In other words, Leading questions are unable to help in the thrashing out of ideas because the person using the question has already made up their mind. Lawyers always use leading questions in cross examination but they never ask a question they don't know the answer to. It is the nature of the beast. But it is never about fact finding. It is about catching people out. That is quite different to a forum that is supposed to thrash ideas out.

Yes, It is a leading question but it is genuine and pivotal in understanding what Christians think is sinful or wrong about what homosexuals practice.

I disagree. You assume because Christians disagree with homosexuality that they are homophobic. You assume that they therefore shun and isolate them. You don't actually consider the facts or even their words. In fact you reject any fact or words they might say to the contrary. This is why you are not really trying to thrash out ideas but have a different agenda. This is clearly demonstrated by the fact that Christians don't highlight homosexuality as any more sinful than anything else that God says is sinful, Yet you continually dismiss these words as nothing more than words.

It is my contention that Christians (and other religions) do not know why homosexuality is wrong which is why I and most other thinking people in society quite rightly label such people as prejudiced and hateful.

Yes, Now that is true. It is true that is your contention or your conclusion. This is what you repeat and why it is also true you will never find a different conclusion. You start with a conclusion and then everything you see afterwards fits that position. It is a common fallacy. It is however untrue that Christians do not know why homosexuality is wrong. Christians take the view that God determines what is right and what is wrong. This was how it was from the beginning and how it remains until this day. Non-Christians use other sources for their determination of right and wrong. Some use democracy. Whatever the majority think is right or wrong is right or wrong. When the majority changes, So does the determination of the object's rightness or wrongness. Some use their parent's version of right and wrong. Others use their culture's sense of right and wrong. Some say it depends on the circumstances. Some use tradition. Some try and use science or biology or nature. For instance, Many homosexuals rely upon the fact that homosexuality is common among many different species of animal so it must be natural. What they ignore is that many species of animal also eat their young so this must be natural as well. Some say that the ends justifies the means - the utilitarian principle determines right and wrong. The greater good for the greatest number. As you can see, There are many ways in which people come to conclusions for what is right and what is wrong. Christians say - God not man decides. I suggest to you that whatever position you take on making a determination of right and wrong - it is going to end up with someone feeling prejudiced and hated even if it is not intentionally meant to be the case. Why? Because everyone thinks they are right.

Both characteristics are indicative of bigotry, Ignorance, And arrogance and it simply is not good enough for Christians to continually make up lame excuses about answering the very simple question, "why".

I think that ignorance and arrogance are something that everyone is guilty of. With respect many of the comments you make on here demonstrate significant ignorance. And I suspect that most people on this forum would if asked, Describe you as arrogant. Hence you yourself fit the bill of a bigot. Yet, That would take all of the fun out of it wouldn't?

Give an example. . . . One instance where I have made a point that was not reasonably qualified that would deserve the label of being ignorant and arrogant.
One example.
ken1122
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10/24/2018 1:58:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
:Willows said:
I understand it all right.
It is simply not credible nor acceptable for Christians to say "God says it is wrong"


ken1122 saidL
Not credible nor acceptable to who; You? It"s not about you; it"s about them. And like it or not, "God says it is wrong" is all they need.

willows said:
and if you have followed my posts, In particular, #15 I have fully justified my point.


Ken said:
I glanced over what you wrote on post#15, And I don"t know if you are saying this out of ignorance or if you just wanna spread lies; but you said:

Christians show a dislike and are prejudiced towards homosexual people.

You didn"t say "some Christians" you "Christians"! That implies all of them. That"s just plain wrong! Not all Christians feel this way. Then you said:

Christian churches do not marry homosexuals nor do they allow homosexuals to be members.

Again; this implies all Christian churches; not some of them. Off the top of my head I know the United Church of Christ allows homosexual members, They preform same sex marriages, And they encourage their members to fight for marriage equality
https://www. Hrc. Org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-united-church-of-christ

There are others as well.

Willows said:
According to the Bible, God decrees many things but do Christians follow them all? No, They don't. They follow only the decrees that suit them or more likely fit into their already ignorant and prejudiced minds, For example, Homophobia.

Does God explain why the hatred towards homosexuals is justified?
No, He doesn"t.


ken1122 said:
Does the God of the Bible explain why you shouldn"t kill, Steal, Bear false witness, Or any of the other 10 commandments? No! He doesn"t work that way; he is their moral dictator.

WIllows said:
Have Christians ever explained what homosexuals do that is sinful?
No, They haven"t.


Ken1122 said:
Actually they have; they say it is an abomination. I know that isn"t good enough for you; but as I pointed out before; this is not about you.

Willows said:
Is there anything that homosexuals do that others don't that warrants hatred.
No there isn"t.


Ken1122 said:
Most Christians don"t claim to have hatred towards homosexuals.

Willows said:
Could it be that Christians are hateful towards others for no other reason than out of sheer ignorance and arrogance?
Yes.


Ken1122 said:
Based on the amount of ignorance and arrogance you"ve been spittin" out I wouldn"t be throwin" stones from your glass house if I were you!

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