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What Are The Odds?

Willows
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10/27/2018 11:26:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are approximately 10, 000 Gods worshipped worldwide?
The followers in each case claim theirs to be the only God and the only true religion.

Also, Each religion has many denominations; Christianity has around 30, 000 different denominations each claiming to be the only way to salvation. For example, The Jehovah's Witnesses emphatically state that their denomination is the only pathway to an afterlife in the kingdom of God (Jehovah).

Do religious followers realize just how slim their chances of their going to Heaven really are?
Athias
Posts: 323
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10/27/2018 4:53:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The problem with your argument is assuming an objective standard to something that's clearly subjective. What are the Odds? They're all right. It's a discreet probability distribution. No one individual cares what the other believes.
Willows
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10/27/2018 9:04:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
The problem with your argument is assuming an objective standard to something that's clearly subjective. What are the Odds? They're all right. It's a discreet probability distribution. No one individual cares what the other believes.

A load of existential, Philosophical la-de-da nonsense makes my argument a problem only to the idiots who come out with such absurdities.
Athias
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10/28/2018 6:00:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Willows wrote:

A load of existential, Philosophical la-de-da nonsense makes my argument a problem only to the idiots who come out with such absurdities.

It's not absurdity; your argument is just dumb. You answered your own query when you stated that each denomination claims that their belief is the only one which leads to salvation; hence, To each denomination, Every other one is excluded. You are also assuming that because there's a manifestation of nuance within Christianity, That the odds have spread. The odds are independent because "Heaven" too subjected to this nuance, Making each claim a discrete variable.

You are an outlier, And therefore your sense "of the odds" are subjected to your belief; hence, You believe the "odds are slim. " For an atheist, You are far too influenced by religious beliefs. In reality, You and those of your ilk aren't atheists. You're just religious contrarians.
Harikrish
Posts: 28,381
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10/28/2018 6:43:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Willows wrote:

A load of existential, Philosophical la-de-da nonsense makes my argument a problem only to the idiots who come out with such absurdities.

It's not absurdity; your argument is just dumb. You answered your own query when you stated that each denomination claims that their belief is the only one which leads to salvation; hence, To each denomination, Every other one is excluded. You are also assuming that because there's a manifestation of nuance within Christianity, That the odds have spread. The odds are independent because "Heaven" too subjected to this nuance, Making each claim a discrete variable.

You are an outlier, And therefore your sense "of the odds" are subjected to your belief; hence, You believe the "odds are slim. " For an atheist, You are far too influenced by religious beliefs. In reality, You and those of your ilk aren't atheists. You're just religious contrarians.

Willows is not expressing his religious beliefs, He has none. What he is doing is showing you statistics on religion and why these conflicting religious beliefs lower the probability of any one being right.

Read his post again: "There are approximately 10, 000 Gods worshipped worldwide?
The followers in each case claim theirs to be the only God and the only true religion.

Also, Each religion has many denominations; Christianity has around 30, 000 different denominations each claiming to be the only way to salvation. For example, The Jehovah's Witnesses emphatically state that their denomination is the only pathway to an afterlife in the kingdom of God (Jehovah).
Do religious followers realize just how slim their chances of their going to Heaven really are? "
Athias
Posts: 323
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10/28/2018 7:51:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Harikrish wrote:
Willows is not expressing his religious beliefs, He has none.

I disagree.

What he is doing is showing you statistics on religion and why these conflicting religious beliefs lower the probability of any one being right.

No, He conveyed the amount of denominations within in Christianity asserting that the nuance had spread the odds. It's a dumb argument, Because no denomination depends on the other; each claim is discrete. The only aspects of their religion which connects them is that they believe that Christ is their lord and savior, And Heaven exists. They disagree on the ethics. Therefore, Their concept of heaven will reflect a different ethic. Making a the claim that their chances of getting into an "objective" heaven, Or at least one that lies outside their standards, Is ignorant. Willows concept of Heaven is one with a universal standard, And as much as [he] denies any religious influence, It seethes through his arguments.
Willows
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10/28/2018 8:44:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Harikrish wrote:
Willows is not expressing his religious beliefs, He has none.

I disagree.

What he is doing is showing you statistics on religion and why these conflicting religious beliefs lower the probability of any one being right.

No, He conveyed the amount of denominations within in Christianity asserting that the nuance had spread the odds. It's a dumb argument, Because no denomination depends on the other; each claim is discrete. The only aspects of their religion which connects them is that they believe that Christ is their lord and savior, And Heaven exists. They disagree on the ethics. Therefore, Their concept of heaven will reflect a different ethic. Making a the claim that their chances of getting into an "objective" heaven, Or at least one that lies outside their standards, Is ignorant. Willows concept of Heaven is one with a universal standard, And as much as [he] denies any religious influence, It seethes through his arguments.

Oh, So there are different Heavens, Depending upon one's concept, Are there?

Time to stop reading "Philosophy For Dummies" and get a real education.
Harikrish
Posts: 28,381
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10/28/2018 8:50:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Harikrish wrote:
Willows is not expressing his religious beliefs, He has none.

I disagree.

What he is doing is showing you statistics on religion and why these conflicting religious beliefs lower the probability of any one being right.

No, He conveyed the amount of denominations within in Christianity asserting that the nuance had spread the odds. It's a dumb argument, Because no denomination depends on the other; each claim is discrete. The only aspects of their religion which connects them is that they believe that Christ is their lord and savior, And Heaven exists. They disagree on the ethics. Therefore, Their concept of heaven will reflect a different ethic. Making a the claim that their chances of getting into an "objective" heaven, Or at least one that lies outside their standards, Is ignorant. Willows concept of Heaven is one with a universal standard, And as much as [he] denies any religious influence, It seethes through his arguments.

The Jews were already divided over God's message. The Christians are even further divided. Some groups believe Jesus is arch angel Michael, Others believe Jesus was gay. Some believe he returned in 70 AD (Preterists) the JW believe Jesus returned in 1844 or 1914. Others believe he failed them and has yet to return to fetch them.
Tbe only thing we know that we can be certain about is Jesus was tried, Convicted and crucified for his blasphemous lies and lunacy.
That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.
Athias
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10/28/2018 11:32:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Willows wrote:
Oh, So there are different Heavens, Depending upon one's concept, Are there?

Yes.

Time to stop reading "Philosophy For Dummies" and get a real education.

Never read it. And I have quite a decent education. But if "getting an education" means attempting to insult your opponent rather than presenting a cogent counterargument, You might not be the best sponsor for that initiative. Apparently your education has failed you.
Athias
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10/28/2018 11:37:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Harikrish wrote:
The Jews were already divided over God's message. The Christians are even further divided. Some groups believe Jesus is arch angel Michael, Others believe Jesus was gay.

And are you among those who believe Jesus was either arch angel Michael, Or gay?

Tbe only thing we know that we can be certain about is Jesus was tried, Convicted and crucified for his blasphemous lies and lunacy.

Do we know that for sure?

That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.

"Dead jew"--singular. That's neither here nor there.
Willows
Posts: 11,592
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10/29/2018 7:46:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Willows wrote:
Oh, So there are different Heavens, Depending upon one's concept, Are there?

Yes.

Time to stop reading "Philosophy For Dummies" and get a real education.

Never read it. And I have quite a decent education. But if "getting an education" means attempting to insult your opponent rather than presenting a cogent counterargument, You might not be the best sponsor for that initiative. Apparently your education has failed you.

I had a sneaking suspicion that you hadn't yet read Philosophy for Dummies.

(". . . Insult your opponent rather than presenting a cogent counterargument")

Who the heck started it in the first place?
(dumb argument. . . . . . . Is ignorant. Willows concept of Heaven. . . . . . . . . Is one with a universal standard, And as much as [he] denies any religious influence, It seethes through his arguments. )

If you are going to dish it out, You can expect to get it back.
The irony in your case is that there is absolutely nothing cogent with stringing together a load of incoherent circular verbosity that nobody can counterargue anyway since it is completely devoid of any substance or meaning.

Perhaps you should read "English Composition For Dummies" or before that, "How Not To Be A Dummy For Dummies".
Willows
Posts: 11,592
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10/29/2018 9:30:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Willows wrote:

A load of existential, Philosophical la-de-da nonsense makes my argument a problem only to the idiots who come out with such absurdities.

It's not absurdity; your argument is just dumb. You answered your own query when you stated that each denomination claims that their belief is the only one which leads to salvation; hence, To each denomination, Every other one is excluded. You are also assuming that because there's a manifestation of nuance within Christianity, That the odds have spread. The odds are independent because "Heaven" too subjected to this nuance, Making each claim a discrete variable.

Wrong:
All Christian Churches claim that the only pathway to Heaven is through Jesus Christ.

Each Christian denomination claims that theirs is the right pathway to Heaven.
Athias
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10/29/2018 2:51:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It appears that your education has taught you nothing about chronological order, Either:

Athias wrote:
The problem with your argument is assuming an objective standard to something that's clearly subjective. What are the Odds? They're all right. It's a discreet probability distribution. No one individual cares what the other believes.

Willows wrote:
A load of existential, Philosophical la-de-da nonsense makes my argument a problem only to the idiots who come out with such absurdities.

Characterizing your argument as "dumb" is not an insult. And if you had an understanding of the English language, Semantics, And its syntax, There'd be nothing further to discuss. But since you are resolved in insulting me rather than presenting arguments, Which you're likely incapable of doing since your position lacks intellectual substance, Our discussion ends here. Have a nice day.
SingularityofLight
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10/29/2018 3:19:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You make some sense. Everyone who believes in that black serpent Jesus, Whose teachings have overthrown and ruined millions of lives, Go to their 30, 000+ personalized and denominatiionalized hells, I mean heavens. Yeah, It makes some sense.
Harikrish
Posts: 28,381
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10/29/2018 3:36:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Harikrish wrote:
The Jews were already divided over God's message. The Christians are even further divided. Some groups believe Jesus is arch angel Michael, Others believe Jesus was gay.

And are you among those who believe Jesus was either arch angel Michael, Or gay?


I am trying to help you realize these denominational Christians can be very far apart in their doctrines.

Tbe only thing we know that we can be certain about is Jesus was tried, Convicted and crucified for his blasphemous lies and lunacy.

Do we know that for sure?

We know that for a fact by various historical sources. Christians turned this crucified Jew into a God by exalting him and believe a Jew died for their sins.
Even Jesus believed only dead Jews could forgive sins and appealed to other Jews to take up the cross and follow him.

That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.

"Dead jew"--singular. That's neither here nor there.
It's very specific.
Read the post again: That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.
Athias
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10/29/2018 3:41:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Harikrish wrote:
I am trying to help you realize these denominational Christians can be very far apart in their doctrines.

This is redundant.

We know that for a fact by various historical sources. Christians turned this crucified Jew into a God by exalting him and believe a Jew died for their sins.
Even Jesus believed only dead Jews could forgive sins and appealed to other Jews to take up the cross and follow him.

A historical source isn't necessarily the same as a valid source. Do you mind citing one of these valid sources?

Read the post again: That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.

Yes, But only one was a Martyr.
Harikrish
Posts: 28,381
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10/29/2018 4:21:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Harikrish wrote:
I am trying to help you realize these denominational Christians can be very far apart in their doctrines.

This is redundant.

Repetition is the best was to teach people with a learning disability. Do you finally get it?

We know that for a fact by various historical sources. Christians turned this crucified Jew into a God by exalting him and believe a Jew died for their sins.
Even Jesus believed only dead Jews could forgive sins and appealed to other Jews to take up the cross and follow him.

A historical source isn't necessarily the same as a valid source. Do you mind citing one of these valid sources?

I can name many historical sources.

"The seven Pauline epistles considered by scholarly consensus to be genuine are dated to between AD 50 and 60 (i. E. , Approximately twenty to thirty years after the generally accepted time period for the death of Jesus) and are the earliest surviving Christian texts that may include information about Jesus. [27] Although Paul provides relatively little biographical information about Jesus[28] and admits that he never knew Jesus personally, He does makes it clear that he considers Jesus to have been a real person[nb 10] and a Jew. Moreover, He claims to have met with James, The brother of Jesus.

Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, Such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, And are usually independent of each other; that is, The Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.

In Books 18 and 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, Written around AD 93 to 94, Jewish historian Josephus twice refers to the biblical Jesus. The general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, Known as the Testimonium Flavianum, Most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery. [39][40] On the other hand, Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, Who was called Christ, Whose name was James"

The Roman historian Tacitus, In his Annals (written ca. AD 115), Book 15, Chapter 44, [45] describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He writes that founder of the sect was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus); that he was executed under Pontius Pilate; and that the movement, Initially checked, Broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself. [46] Some scholars question the historical value of the passage on various grounds.

Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. "
Read the post again: That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.

Yes, But only one was a Martyr.

You are scripturally ignorant as well.
Jesus appealed to his disciples to take up the cross and follow him and join him in his martyrdom.
Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, He must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, But whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
Athias
Posts: 323
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10/29/2018 4:49:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Harikrish wrote:

I can name many historical sources.
"The seven Pauline epistles considered by scholarly consensus to be genuine are dated to between AD 50 and 60 (i. E. , Approximately twenty to thirty years after the generally accepted time period for the death of Jesus) and are the earliest surviving Christian texts that may include information about Jesus. [27] Although Paul provides relatively little biographical information about Jesus[28] and admits that he never knew Jesus personally, He does makes it clear that he considers Jesus to have been a real person[nb 10] and a Jew. Moreover, He claims to have met with James, The brother of Jesus.

Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, Such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, And are usually independent of each other; that is, The Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.

In Books 18 and 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, Written around AD 93 to 94, Jewish historian Josephus twice refers to the biblical Jesus. The general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, Known as the Testimonium Flavianum, Most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery. [39][40] On the other hand, Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, Who was called Christ, Whose name was James"

The Roman historian Tacitus, In his Annals (written ca. AD 115), Book 15, Chapter 44, [45] describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He writes that founder of the sect was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus); that he was executed under Pontius Pilate; and that the movement, Initially checked, Broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself. [46] Some scholars question the historical value of the passage on various grounds.

Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. "
Read the post again: That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.

I didn't ask you to name historical sources. I asked you to cite a valid historical source--i. E. Informed by explicitly verifiable evidence.

You are scripturally ignorant as well.
Jesus appealed to his disciples to take up the cross and follow him and join him in his martyrdom.
Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, He must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, But whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Yes, Only two of his apostles followed him, And neither died for the sin of others. They died for spreading Jesus's message through ministry.
Harikrish
Posts: 28,381
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10/29/2018 5:15:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Athias wrote:
Harikrish wrote:

I can name many historical sources.
"The seven Pauline epistles considered by scholarly consensus to be genuine are dated to between AD 50 and 60 (i. E. , Approximately twenty to thirty years after the generally accepted time period for the death of Jesus) and are the earliest surviving Christian texts that may include information about Jesus. [27] Although Paul provides relatively little biographical information about Jesus[28] and admits that he never knew Jesus personally, He does makes it clear that he considers Jesus to have been a real person[nb 10] and a Jew. Moreover, He claims to have met with James, The brother of Jesus.

Non-Christian sources used to study and establish the historicity of Jesus include the Jewish historian Josephus and Roman historian Tacitus. These sources are compared to Christian sources, Such as the Pauline letters and synoptic gospels, And are usually independent of each other; that is, The Jewish sources do not draw upon the Roman sources. Similarities and differences between these sources are used in the authentication process.

In Books 18 and 20 of Antiquities of the Jews, Written around AD 93 to 94, Jewish historian Josephus twice refers to the biblical Jesus. The general scholarly view holds that the longer passage, Known as the Testimonium Flavianum, Most likely consists of an authentic nucleus that was subjected to later Christian interpolation or forgery. [39][40] On the other hand, Louis H. Feldman states that "few have doubted the genuineness" of the reference found in Antiquities 20, 9, 1 to "the brother of Jesus, Who was called Christ, Whose name was James"

The Roman historian Tacitus, In his Annals (written ca. AD 115), Book 15, Chapter 44, [45] describes Nero's scapegoating of the Christians following the Fire of Rome. He writes that founder of the sect was named Christus (the Christian title for Jesus); that he was executed under Pontius Pilate; and that the movement, Initially checked, Broke out again in Judea and even in Rome itself. [46] Some scholars question the historical value of the passage on various grounds.

Historian Michael Grant asserts that if conventional standards of historical textual criticism are applied to the New Testament, "we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. "
Read the post again: That all Christians worship a dead Jewish corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross 2000 years ago. Only Christians believe dead Jews can forgive sins because Jesus a Jew died for their sins. The Romans by crucifying Jesus a Jew brought salvation to the Gentiles. Before that only the Jews were part of God's covenant.

I didn't ask you to name historical sources. I asked you to cite a valid historical source--i. E. Informed by explicitly verifiable evidence.

I did better by giving you several historical sources so you can form your own conclusion.

You are scripturally ignorant as well.
Jesus appealed to his disciples to take up the cross and follow him and join him in his martyrdom.
Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus told His disciples, "If anyone would come after Me, He must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me.

Matthew 16:25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, But whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Yes, Only two of his apostles followed him, And neither died for the sin of others. They died for spreading Jesus's message through ministry.

Except for John all his apostles were put to death. All were martyred for preaching what Jesus believed that only a dead Jew could forgive sins. Jesus who was a jew claimed he would be killed for the sins of others. Christians believe a Jew died for their sins. Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews because of his Christian beliefs that only dead Jews could forgive sins.

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