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The Natural Excuse

Willows
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11/30/2018 3:23:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The subject of homophobia by religious institutions has been well aired on this forum and, To date, The only credible reason for hatred aimed at homosexuals is through ignorance, Arrogance and outright senseless prejudice. Wrap the whole thing up with a generous dose of Biblical dogma (still, Without explanation) and religious die-hards somehow feel safe in the knowledge that they are protected from their distasteful vilification of perfectly normal, Thinking, Caring human beings.

Now, We get to the bottom (excuse the pun) of it and hear that the way homosexuals practice sex is unnatural. . . . The inference being that if we do not practice sex that is contrary to nature (whatever that may be) it is wrong for some mysterious reason.

So, Since such ignorant, Arrogant and prejudiced theists started this despicable war against others who somehow fall short of their bizarre, Elitist standards that they (religious institutions) decide others should follow, Let's consider the following. . . . .

God, Is an unproven, Unverifiable, Mythological, Invisible being who is alleged to have created everything that is and what we are.
The worshiping of such a mythological being that certainly has no place in nature (remember, God is beyond science) and is therefore unnatural.

So, By their own standards, Shouldn't religious institutions be vilified and do religious followers deserve the persecution leveled at them since time immemorial?

If religion continues its regime of singling out minority groups for no reason other than out of ignorance and arrogance, It will continue to be persecuted until the last sour-mouthed adherent has been kicked out of town.
Willows
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11/30/2018 4:37:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
thymeless wrote:
There is no gay sex act that straight people do not also engage in.

Quite right.
I know what Anon is trying to get at, But so what?
Unfortunately, It is people of his ilk who don't recognise the ignorance and arrogance of his own thoughts which are derived from the primitive, Uneducated, And highly superstitious fears that commonfolk held eons ago.

We now live in modern, Educated, Tolerant times but some people are still stuck in a time-warp in Lala Land.
Tradesecret
Posts: 1,425
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11/30/2018 5:11:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The subject of homophobia by religious institutions has been well aired on this forum and, To date, The only credible reason for hatred aimed at homosexuals is through ignorance, Arrogance and outright senseless prejudice. Wrap the whole thing up with a generous dose of Biblical dogma (still, Without explanation) and religious die-hards somehow feel safe in the knowledge that they are protected from their distasteful vilification of perfectly normal, Thinking, Caring human beings.

blah blah blah. Homophobia is a word made up to try and justify a minority group's existence. God makes the rules, Not humanity. God said that marriage is a institution organised for the raising of children. Humanity said - no - sex makes children it has nothing to do with marriage. Lots of people have sex without marriage. God said sex outside of marriage is adultery. No - said the human - sex is for pleasure. The fact that sometimes children result from it is problematic but we can resolve that by abortion. Homosexuals say sex is for pleasure and showing love. Love that can exist outside of marriage and apart from children. God says sex and love go hand in hand with children and marriage. This is the normal and natural way for humans to exist. If you don't want to be normal or natural then go and join and imitate the animals. Ok says the human - and so off they go. They lived like the animals - and forgot that children had rights as well and did whatever they wanted to do.

Now, We get to the bottom (excuse the pun) of it and hear that the way homosexuals practice sex is unnatural. . . . The inference being that if we do not practice sex that is contrary to nature (whatever that may be) it is wrong for some mysterious reason.


sodomy is unnatural for humans. Animals practice it. But your problem is not what is happening - but what makes it right or wrong. I say God decides and you say - you decide.
So, Since such ignorant, Arrogant and prejudiced theists started this despicable war against others who somehow fall short of their bizarre, Elitist standards that they (religious institutions) decide others should follow, Let's consider the following. . . . .

Garbage.

God, Is an unproven, Unverifiable, Mythological, Invisible being who is alleged to have created everything that is and what we are.
The worshiping of such a mythological being that certainly has no place in nature (remember, God is beyond science) and is therefore unnatural.


people would not worship a God that can be proven. Idiot - take a look at yourself. God is not able to be put into a test tube and be whatever humans want him to be. He does not conform to their rules. I think the fact that you can't prove God exists or does not exist - is evidence by itself of his existence.
thymeless
Posts: 36
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11/30/2018 5:20:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why should I think the Bible is evidence of God's standard of right and wrong?

The Bible evidences Divine Command Theory which contradicts a stable moral standard. On that premise God could command gay sex and it would be good, Perhaps even required. Similarly he could command child rape.

A being who's moral standard is Divine Command Theory is unworthy of worship. That a human could have a higher moral understanding than God is to deny God's godhood. We don't need his proclamations to know better.
Tradesecret
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11/30/2018 7:08:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why should I think the Bible is evidence of God's standard of right and wrong?

I am not asking you to think anything. For me the bible is God's standard of right and wrong. It is objective. It is easy to find. It is in writing. It cannot be much plainer than that. It was written by his prophets and then by his apostles under his guidance. It certainly has not been refuted by God at any time. The alternative of course is some other alleged scripture -or subjective mysticism. I prefer the former to the latter. Yet, None of the other books of alleged scripture claim divine nature save and except the book of Mormon. A divine book in my opinion would need to be self authenticating. The Koran for instance does not claim to be God's book or written by him. Nor do the hindu books.

The Bible evidences Divine Command Theory which contradicts a stable moral standard. On that premise God could command gay sex and it would be good, Perhaps even required. Similarly he could command child rape.

I concede I don't understand what you mean by divine command theory. Hence your speculation that it contradicts some other kind of moral standard is meaningless to me. I take the view that morality must be based on more than majority rules - and must be objective. The question then is - does it stand neutral against everything or is there a personal subjective basis to it. I take the latter view meaning that it is morality is determined by God. I however reject your view that this means that God could condone child rape for the subjective moral basis to have any substance to it - the person making the judgment must be good. (yes I know - assertions. )

A being who's moral standard is Divine Command Theory is unworthy of worship. That a human could have a higher moral understanding than God is to deny God's godhood. We don't need his proclamations to know better.

I reject this despite the fact that I don't know what divine command theory is. Who are you to determine who is worthy or not worthy of worship? You are speaking completely from your own subjective point of view as a human.
Willows
Posts: 11,592
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11/30/2018 8:43:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
The subject of homophobia by religious institutions has been well aired on this forum and, To date, The only credible reason for hatred aimed at homosexuals is through ignorance, Arrogance and outright senseless prejudice. Wrap the whole thing up with a generous dose of Biblical dogma (still, Without explanation) and religious die-hards somehow feel safe in the knowledge that they are protected from their distasteful vilification of perfectly normal, Thinking, Caring human beings.

blah blah blah. Homophobia is a word made up to try and justify a minority group's existence. God makes the rules, Not humanity. God said that marriage is a institution organised for the raising of children. Humanity said - no - sex makes children it has nothing to do with marriage. Lots of people have sex without marriage. God said sex outside of marriage is adultery. No - said the human - sex is for pleasure. The fact that sometimes children result from it is problematic but we can resolve that by abortion. Homosexuals say sex is for pleasure and showing love. Love that can exist outside of marriage and apart from children. God says sex and love go hand in hand with children and marriage. This is the normal and natural way for humans to exist. If you don't want to be normal or natural then go and join and imitate the animals. Ok says the human - and so off they go. They lived like the animals - and forgot that children had rights as well and did whatever they wanted to do.

Now, We get to the bottom (excuse the pun) of it and hear that the way homosexuals practice sex is unnatural. . . . The inference being that if we do not practice sex that is contrary to nature (whatever that may be) it is wrong for some mysterious reason.


sodomy is unnatural for humans. Animals practice it. But your problem is not what is happening - but what makes it right or wrong. I say God decides and you say - you decide.
So, Since such ignorant, Arrogant and prejudiced theists started this despicable war against others who somehow fall short of their bizarre, Elitist standards that they (religious institutions) decide others should follow, Let's consider the following. . . . .

Garbage.

God, Is an unproven, Unverifiable, Mythological, Invisible being who is alleged to have created everything that is and what we are.
The worshiping of such a mythological being that certainly has no place in nature (remember, God is beyond science) and is therefore unnatural.


people would not worship a God that can be proven. Idiot - take a look at yourself. God is not able to be put into a test tube and be whatever humans want him to be. He does not conform to their rules. I think the fact that you can't prove God exists or does not exist - is evidence by itself of his existence.

God said, "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard".

Such a directive can be found in the same chapter of Leviticus as "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman".

Now, Tell everybody on this forum. . . . . Do you have long hair and do you have an unkempt beard?

If not, Why do you chose to single out one rule of God and not another?
thymeless
Posts: 36
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11/30/2018 2:51:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Since the worship is mine to give, It is my right to determine who or what is worthy of it.

There are many books of supposed God's word in writing on what grounds does the Bible win out over the others?
Harikrish
Posts: 28,366
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11/30/2018 11:45:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
thymeless wrote:
Since the worship is mine to give, It is my right to determine who or what is worthy of it.

There are many books of supposed God's word in writing on what grounds does the Bible win out over the others?

One would have thought you had resolved these issues but it appears you are still debating them in you head and asking here: "on what grounds does the Bible win out over the others? "

Are you not guilty of the natural excuse?
Willows
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12/1/2018 12:21:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Harikrish wrote:
thymeless wrote:
Since the worship is mine to give, It is my right to determine who or what is worthy of it.

There are many books of supposed God's word in writing on what grounds does the Bible win out over the others?

One would have thought you had resolved these issues but it appears you are still debating them in you head and asking here: "on what grounds does the Bible win out over the others? "

Are you not guilty of the natural excuse?

He would not be guilty of the natural excuse except if he were to reason that he does not follow unnatural practices in the first place.

Saying that one objects to anything that is an unnatural practice is the most absurd and hypocritical statement anyway.

Being catapulted through unsustainably high altitudes at dangerous, Unhuman velocities in a large aluminum tube is hardly natural.

Yet I can bet those who argue that homosexuality is unnatural will still step on board that unnatural transportation device waiting for some unnaturally smiling floozy to slap a cruddy, Unnatural tray of food on an unnaturally small fold-out table.
thymeless
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12/1/2018 12:26:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not as I understand it.

If someone wants to use a basis for telling someone else how to live there life, I want to know why they think that text is good for that task. In the case of the Bible, It's usually as a form of appeal to authority. Now appealing to a an authority is valid if there is expertise or authority there. But the Bible is not that. The evidence is against it being God breathed. It is not reliable as a history of God's interaction with his people. The actual history, The archaeology and the documents themselves deny that.

It's myth. And people can believe myth if they want. I'm fine with that. But don't use it as a basis to impose your beliefs on others. Or try to tell me I'm wrong when you don't know about what you claim you believe, You being generic here.
Willows
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12/1/2018 12:42:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
thymeless wrote:
Not as I understand it.

If someone wants to use a basis for telling someone else how to live there life, I want to know why they think that text is good for that task. In the case of the Bible, It's usually as a form of appeal to authority. Now appealing to a an authority is valid if there is expertise or authority there. But the Bible is not that. The evidence is against it being God breathed. It is not reliable as a history of God's interaction with his people. The actual history, The archaeology and the documents themselves deny that.

It's myth. And people can believe myth if they want. I'm fine with that. But don't use it as a basis to impose your beliefs on others. Or try to tell me I'm wrong when you don't know about what you claim you believe, You being generic here.

I'm being very specific as per the thread.
My contention, Based on reasoning is that the worshipping of God is unnatural.
And I am imposing no belief on others, Nor did I say you were wrong.

Are you sure that you are not an over-sensitive, Conspiracy-obsessed closet theist?

There are some good medications available nowadays you know.
thymeless
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12/1/2018 12:46:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm speaking of tradesecret mostly. Or other blanket assertions of the divinity of the Bible as in anonthegreat
Willows
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12/1/2018 1:09:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
thymeless wrote:
I'm speaking of tradesecret mostly. Or other blanket assertions of the divinity of the Bible as in anonthegreat

In both cases, We are talking about those who preach here and rather than trying to reason with them I now tend to merely expose the absurdity and hypocrisy of the crap they are trying to push out there.
Tradesecret
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12/1/2018 3:44:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
God said, "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard".

Such a directive can be found in the same chapter of Leviticus as "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman".

Now, Tell everybody on this forum. . . . . Do you have long hair and do you have an unkempt beard?

If not, Why do you chose to single out one rule of God and not another?


Hello Will,

I am sure you have heard of interpretation methodology. I know I have attempted to explain it to you before. What is the point of the Israelite male having long hair and unkempt beard? It was to distinguish him from the world and gentiles around them at the time. You will find that this in the same chapter as many other rules and regulations concerning Israel's uniqueness at the time. Hence, These rules applied in a particular way to Israel and not to gentiles. The purpose of the uniqueness was to narrow the scope of where the Messiah was going to arise. When the Messiah came - and Israel's position as unique among the world was no longer necessary these laws ceased to have the same force as they did in the OT.

Some laws in the OT however continued into the NT church - because they were not directly related to national Israel or to the coming seed. Hence, The OT law of not murdering, Not committing adultery, Not stealing, Not committing bestiality, Not lying, Etc etc, Continued on as part of the general laws of humanity. Homosexuality was related to marriage laws, Not to seed laws, Hence Paul and Jesus in the NT condemned it.

Now I don't particularly care whether you agree with my understanding or interpretation but that is it. It is well known. I have not subjectively made it up. It is a common one and it is quite consistent. It continues to uphold the OT authority and it provides rationale for our position today.

So whether I have long hair and unkempt beard is irrelevant from my point of view. If I said yes, That would not suddenly see you think "wow" and repent of your sins and convert to Christ, So why should I tell you.
Tradesecret
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12/1/2018 3:48:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Since the worship is mine to give, It is my right to determine who or what is worthy of it.

Who says it is your to give? Worship is not a thing. And even if for the sake of the argument it was yours, Why does that make it your right to determine who or what is worthy of it? Apply that same principle to money and to taxes. Your money might be yours. But you don't determine who gets it and you don't determine who is worthy of it. The government takes it whether it is your money or not. They determine what is done with it - and it does not care whether you think it is worthy or not.

There are many books of supposed God's word in writing on what grounds does the Bible win out over the others?

Yes, I did mention that above. How many of those books claim to be divine?
Willows
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12/1/2018 4:26:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
God said, "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard".

Such a directive can be found in the same chapter of Leviticus as "You are not to sleep with a man as with a woman".

Now, Tell everybody on this forum. . . . . Do you have long hair and do you have an unkempt beard?

If not, Why do you chose to single out one rule of God and not another?


Hello Will,

I am sure you have heard of interpretation methodology. I know I have attempted to explain it to you before. What is the point of the Israelite male having long hair and unkempt beard? It was to distinguish him from the world and gentiles around them at the time. You will find that this in the same chapter as many other rules and regulations concerning Israel's uniqueness at the time. Hence, These rules applied in a particular way to Israel and not to gentiles. The purpose of the uniqueness was to narrow the scope of where the Messiah was going to arise. When the Messiah came - and Israel's position as unique among the world was no longer necessary these laws ceased to have the same force as they did in the OT.

Some laws in the OT however continued into the NT church - because they were not directly related to national Israel or to the coming seed. Hence, The OT law of not murdering, Not committing adultery, Not stealing, Not committing bestiality, Not lying, Etc etc, Continued on as part of the general laws of humanity. Homosexuality was related to marriage laws, Not to seed laws, Hence Paul and Jesus in the NT condemned it.

Now I don't particularly care whether you agree with my understanding or interpretation but that is it. It is well known. I have not subjectively made it up. It is a common one and it is quite consistent. It continues to uphold the OT authority and it provides rationale for our position today.

So whether I have long hair and unkempt beard is irrelevant from my point of view. If I said yes, That would not suddenly see you think "wow" and repent of your sins and convert to Christ, So why should I tell you.

Interpretation methodology alright. So long as the interpretation suits the biased, Prejudiced interpreter as we are dealing with here.

You know very well why I asked if you have long hair and have an unkempt beard.

Your answer is all very telling to those who read it.
Tradesecret
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12/1/2018 9:08:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Interpretation methodology alright. So long as the interpretation suits the biased, Prejudiced interpreter as we are dealing with here.

You know very well why I asked if you have long hair and have an unkempt beard.

Your answer is all very telling to those who read it.


Of course I know why you asked the question. You think your interpretation methodology is correct and everyone else is wrong. You think that OT laws are written in one time and MUST remain law all of the time despite the coming of Jesus. If I was a Jew, You might be correct. Since I am a Christian, You are incorrect. I am not bound to OT laws that pointed to Christ and are fulfilled in Christ. I no longer am bound to the laws of long hair and unkempt beard than I am to sacrificing sheep and goats. The NT saw these fulfilled in Christ, So Christians don't practice them. The same applies to hair and beards. Laws relating to marriage and homosexuality did not point to Jesus - and therefore are binding on Christians, Unless you can demonstrate that in Christ they have been fulfilled.
Willows
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12/1/2018 10:51:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Interpretation methodology alright. So long as the interpretation suits the biased, Prejudiced interpreter as we are dealing with here.

You know very well why I asked if you have long hair and have an unkempt beard.

Your answer is all very telling to those who read it.


Of course I know why you asked the question. You think your interpretation methodology is correct and everyone else is wrong. You think that OT laws are written in one time and MUST remain law all of the time despite the coming of Jesus. If I was a Jew, You might be correct. Since I am a Christian, You are incorrect. I am not bound to OT laws that pointed to Christ and are fulfilled in Christ. I no longer am bound to the laws of long hair and unkempt beard than I am to sacrificing sheep and goats. The NT saw these fulfilled in Christ, So Christians don't practice them. The same applies to hair and beards. Laws relating to marriage and homosexuality did not point to Jesus - and therefore are binding on Christians, Unless you can demonstrate that in Christ they have been fulfilled.

Oh right. . . So that's your excuse as to why you choose to enact one doctrine and dismiss another.

Unfortunately for you, Most morally decent people who respect the rights of others in civilized society do not agree with such a blatant show of ignorance and arrogance.
Harikrish
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12/1/2018 5:17:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The bible is clear about what is detestable about a man seeking a sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, Both of them have done what is detestable.

Leviticus 20:13 - " 'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, Both of them have done what is detestable.

A man seeking a sexual relation with a woman would imply vaginal sex, Procreational sex and a union of opposites.

According to the bible if a man seeks sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, Both of them have done what is detestable. And for obvious reasons as outlined above. He is confusing another man for a woman with whom he seeks vaginal sex, Procreational sex and a union of opposites which not only is impossible it is also detestable.
But there is nothing detestable about a man seeking sexual relations with a man if he knowingly seeks a man and not a woman because he knows the difference and is not seeking a sexual relation that is possible only with a woman such as vaginal sex, Procreational sex and a union of opposites because he sees same sex as preferable.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.
Tradesecret
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12/2/2018 9:05:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Interpretation methodology alright. So long as the interpretation suits the biased, Prejudiced interpreter as we are dealing with here.

You know very well why I asked if you have long hair and have an unkempt beard.

Your answer is all very telling to those who read it.

Of course I know why you asked the question. You think your interpretation methodology is correct and everyone else is wrong. You think that OT laws are written in one time and MUST remain law all of the time despite the coming of Jesus. If I was a Jew, You might be correct. Since I am a Christian, You are incorrect. I am not bound to OT laws that pointed to Christ and are fulfilled in Christ. I no longer am bound to the laws of long hair and unkempt beard than I am to sacrificing sheep and goats. The NT saw these fulfilled in Christ, So Christians don't practice them. The same applies to hair and beards. Laws relating to marriage and homosexuality did not point to Jesus - and therefore are binding on Christians, Unless you can demonstrate that in Christ they have been fulfilled.

Oh right. . . So that's your excuse as to why you choose to enact one doctrine and dismiss another.

Unfortunately for you, Most morally decent people who respect the rights of others in civilized society do not agree with such a blatant show of ignorance and arrogance.


How is that in any way arrogant? God - the one who made the heavens and the earth has the right - indeed is the only one who has the right - to decide what is right and what is wrong in relation to moral concerns. What is arrogant is when the clay says to the potter, How dare you make me into what you want to? Now you can go outside and howl at the moon anytime you want too, But it does not change the fact that you are human and God is God. You can pretend God does not exist. It does not change the fact that humans did not make themselves. You can sit here everyday shouting at God and calling him names, But the fact is - you do it because you are angry at God. Why? Because he calls you to account and you don't like it. You want to do your own thing and whenever you do, Your conscience kicks in - so you lash out. The solution to this is to stop struggling and get on your knees. Call out to God and confess your sin. And ask God to forgive you. Trust in Jesus and receive forgiveness.
Willows
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12/3/2018 2:42:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Tradesecret wrote:
Interpretation methodology alright. So long as the interpretation suits the biased, Prejudiced interpreter as we are dealing with here.

You know very well why I asked if you have long hair and have an unkempt beard.

Your answer is all very telling to those who read it.

Of course I know why you asked the question. You think your interpretation methodology is correct and everyone else is wrong. You think that OT laws are written in one time and MUST remain law all of the time despite the coming of Jesus. If I was a Jew, You might be correct. Since I am a Christian, You are incorrect. I am not bound to OT laws that pointed to Christ and are fulfilled in Christ. I no longer am bound to the laws of long hair and unkempt beard than I am to sacrificing sheep and goats. The NT saw these fulfilled in Christ, So Christians don't practice them. The same applies to hair and beards. Laws relating to marriage and homosexuality did not point to Jesus - and therefore are binding on Christians, Unless you can demonstrate that in Christ they have been fulfilled.

Oh right. . . So that's your excuse as to why you choose to enact one doctrine and dismiss another.

Unfortunately for you, Most morally decent people who respect the rights of others in civilized society do not agree with such a blatant show of ignorance and arrogance.


How is that in any way arrogant? God - the one who made the heavens and the earth has the right - indeed is the only one who has the right - to decide what is right and what is wrong in relation to moral concerns. What is arrogant is when the clay says to the potter, How dare you make me into what you want to? Now you can go outside and howl at the moon anytime you want too, But it does not change the fact that you are human and God is God. You can pretend God does not exist. It does not change the fact that humans did not make themselves. You can sit here everyday shouting at God and calling him names, But the fact is - you do it because you are angry at God. Why? Because he calls you to account and you don't like it. You want to do your own thing and whenever you do, Your conscience kicks in - so you lash out. The solution to this is to stop struggling and get on your knees. Call out to God and confess your sin. And ask God to forgive you. Trust in Jesus and receive forgiveness.

I am not disputing that one can choose to believe or think what he likes and I never raised the issue.

What I did raise is the fact that those who decide to be homophobic do so out ignorance and arrogance.

We can't stop those people holding those thoughts but we can and have enacted laws to prevent such people from committing actions consistent with those thoughts.

It is also very telling that a homophobe will not only be ignorant and arrogant about homosexuality but also about other fundamental values but of course, Never admit it.

If I go to a bbq and someone starts mouthing off. . . . . . . "Well, I'm not racist but. . . . . Well, I'm not sexist but. . . . . . . . . . . . Well, I'm not homophobic but. . . . . . . . . . . . . . "he will invariably find himself being accidentally knocked into the swimming pool.
anonthegreat
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12/3/2018 2:58:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Willows, I do not believe you how your mind works, Or how it works in all humans. The will creates the belief, With or without evidence. You have to believe something for, Or against, Or neutral. You do not decide to stop thinking anymore than the earth can stop spinning. Then the mind kicks in automatically to justify what we believe is true with automatic reasoning processes that work perfectly. We are created in the image of God with perfect reasoning to believe in truth, Even if the facts prove it is false. If we believe in the opinions of others, We become like snakes without backbones and go from one opinion to another opinion feeling stable in establish authorities; and when change occurs in society, Then we change too. It is a very sneaky illusion to feel stable, When we are not.

Therefore, All decisions in life are made by will and feelings based on what we CHOOSE to believe, With or without evidence. Our reasoning will not change until we choose to change our beliefs. Reason and evidence can convince us to change, But we eventually make the choice to believe in God.

Then come faith in God which is the substance of things hoped for, The evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1) Belief in God must be your choice. THEN faith comes as a gift of God's grace by hearing the Logos Word of God:

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things! " But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, Who has believed our report? " So then faith comes by hearing, And hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:14-17)

Paul was writing this to UNBELIEVERS in all of Rome.
Willows
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12/3/2018 5:51:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
anonthegreat wrote:
Willows, I do not believe you how your mind works, Or how it works in all humans. The will creates the belief, With or without evidence. You have to believe something for, Or against, Or neutral. You do not decide to stop thinking anymore than the earth can stop spinning. Then the mind kicks in automatically to justify what we believe is true with automatic reasoning processes that work perfectly. We are created in the image of God with perfect reasoning to believe in truth, Even if the facts prove it is false. If we believe in the opinions of others, We become like snakes without backbones and go from one opinion to another opinion feeling stable in establish authorities; and when change occurs in society, Then we change too. It is a very sneaky illusion to feel stable, When we are not.

Therefore, All decisions in life are made by will and feelings based on what we CHOOSE to believe, With or without evidence. Our reasoning will not change until we choose to change our beliefs. Reason and evidence can convince us to change, But we eventually make the choice to believe in God.

Then come faith in God which is the substance of things hoped for, The evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1) Belief in God must be your choice. THEN faith comes as a gift of God's grace by hearing the Logos Word of God:

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things! " But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, Who has believed our report? " So then faith comes by hearing, And hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:14-17)

Paul was writing this to UNBELIEVERS in all of Rome.

. . . . According to an unconfirmed myth.

Come on.
You should know better by now than to give a generic reply to a specific argument.

You are trying to justify an unfounded belief by trying to suggest in a roundabout way that because the mind works in such a way it is somehow alright.

How one forms beliefs is irrelevant to the facts:
* Those who believe it is wrong to be homosexual or to practice homosexuality do so out of ignorance and arrogance.

* Those who believe in any supernatural presence do so out of ignorance and arrogance.

No amount of justification changes those facts.

Those who hold such beliefs are entitled to them but being in denial or making excuses to justify their ignorance and arrogance is going a bit beyond the pale.

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