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Sola Fide verses Sola de Gracia

LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 7:11:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Well my post did not work the first time. So here it is again. I am on the Sola de Gracia, The Grace alone side of the argument. The Sola Fide or Faith alone is the protestant side of the argument. I think that faith alone is not how one is saved. I believe we are saved by grace alone.
anonthesmallone
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6/19/2019 7:42:03 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
Well my post did not work the first time. So here it is again. I am on the Sola de Gracia, The Grace alone side of the argument. The Sola Fide or Faith alone is the protestant side of the argument. I think that faith alone is not how one is saved. I believe we are saved by grace alone.

in eternity, We are all saved by grace alone, Just for being born through the water of a mother's womb. Even Ra (Lucifer) will go home to Heavenly Father as a Prodigal Son. His spirit orb is recycled after His soul and body are destroyed in hell fire. Then he will receive a new soul and mortal body born through a mother's mortal womb to live forever by grace alone.

But in mortality, We grow by and from grace to grace through faith. Welcome to DDO. This board is free speech. Feel free to contribute.
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LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 7:51:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
HI Not sure what you mean by Satan being saved. He is an angle not human. He made a decision and can not change it. Angels are unable to change their decisions not like humans can.
It is the irrevocable character of their choice, And not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, That makes the angels" sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, Just as there is no repentance for men after death" (CCC 393).
Angles can not change their minds because they understand completely what happens in their choice.
Harikrish
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6/19/2019 8:00:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
Well my post did not work the first time. So here it is again. I am on the Sola de Gracia, The Grace alone side of the argument. The Sola Fide or Faith alone is the protestant side of the argument. I think that faith alone is not how one is saved. I believe we are saved by grace alone.

Seeing you are Catholic. Grace is the only way Catholics can be saved. If you heard that from your priest sitting on his lap. Was his faith rewarded?
Faith is expectation of things hoped for.
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 8:08:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Seeing you are Catholic. Grace is the only way Catholics can be saved. If you heard that from your priest sitting on his lap. Was his faith rewarded?
Faith is expectation of things hoped for. :

I am unsure what your argument is I am a bit confused. The actual definition of faith is.

faith noun
\ G2;fāth \
plural faiths\ G2;fāths, Sometimes G2;fātV3;hz \
Definition of faith (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY
lost faith in the company's president
b(1) : fidelity to one's promises
(2) : sincerity of intentions
acted in good faith
2a(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction
especially : a system of religious beliefs
the Protestant faith

This is from websters dictionary. If that helps. When I mean faith I mean complete trust in what God says.
Harikrish
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6/19/2019 8:30:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
Seeing you are Catholic. Grace is the only way Catholics can be saved. If you heard that from your priest sitting on his lap. Was his faith rewarded?
Faith is expectation of things hoped for. :

I am unsure what your argument is I am a bit confused. The actual definition of faith is.

faith noun
\ G2;fāth \
plural faiths\ G2;fāths, Sometimes G2;fātV3;hz \
Definition of faith (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY
lost faith in the company's president
b(1) : fidelity to one's promises
(2) : sincerity of intentions
acted in good faith
2a(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God
(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion
b(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof
clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return
(2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction
especially : a system of religious beliefs
the Protestant faith

This is from websters dictionary. If that helps. When I mean faith I mean complete trust in what God says.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 8:37:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Yeah that goes along with the definition. Faith is us being certain of God telling us the truth. I am just a bit confused on where we disagree.
anonthesmallone
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6/19/2019 8:38:58 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
HI Not sure what you mean by Satan being saved. He is an angle not human. He made a decision and can not change it. Angels are unable to change their decisions not like humans can.
It is the irrevocable character of their choice, And not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, That makes the angels" sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, Just as there is no repentance for men after death" (CCC 393).
Angles can not change their minds because they understand completely what happens in their choice.

There are many paradigms in your head about the "fallen angels". What do you believe about Gen 6:1-2 about the Sons of God? Jude calls them angels. Which is it?
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LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 9:00:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago

There are many paradigms in your head about the "fallen angels". What do you believe about Gen 6:1-2 about the Sons of God? Jude calls them angels. Which is it?

The church has no formal teaching on nephilim but the word can be translated two ways.

One way is the meaning Fallen Ones and the other meaning is tyrants. Most catholic scholars believe this verse is in fact talking about the children of Cain who are the fallen one in the context. As Scott Han puts it.

"When people began to multiply on the face of the earth, "the sons of God, " that is, The Sethite men, Were seduced by the beauty of "the daughters of men, " that is, The Cainite women. The beauty of the wicked proved stronger than the resolve of the righteous. Sethite men found a new forbidden fruit, The beautiful but ungodly Cainite women, To be irresistible. And they didn"t just marry them; "they married as they chose, " which might imply that, Along with mixed marriages, Polygamy had now also entered into the line of Seth, The covenant family of God. Thus, Violent men were born. When left unchecked, Sin becomes institutionalized. In every age of salvation history, Sexual immorality and violence go hand in hand, Triggering the hard remedy of God"s judgment in the form of the covenant curses. And nothing institutionalizes sin more than marital infidelity. The whole culture gets clobbered, Especially the children. And afterward only a remnant survives, Barely. "
Basically the sons of God were humans that were not fallen in Jewish thought got with the ungodly Cainite women and had children the Fallen ones or nephlem. Most Church fathers interprint it this way and it make sense in historical context. Angle do not have bodies the same way we do they are spirits.
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 9:16:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
https://www. Catholic. Com/video/what-are-the-nephilim

Also here is a good video about Catholic viewpoint on this topic. I am obviously more of the opinion they were human.
anonthesmallone
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6/19/2019 9:20:11 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
wrote:

There are many paradigms in your head about the "fallen angels". What do you believe about Gen 6:1-2 about the Sons of God? Jude calls them angels. Which is it?

The church has no formal teaching on nephilim but the word can be translated two ways.

One way is the meaning Fallen Ones and the other meaning is tyrants. Most catholic scholars believe this verse is in fact talking about the children of Cain who are the fallen one in the context. As Scott Han puts it.

"When people began to multiply on the face of the earth, "the sons of God, " that is, The Sethite men, Were seduced by the beauty of "the daughters of men, " that is, The Cainite women. The beauty of the wicked proved stronger than the resolve of the righteous. Sethite men found a new forbidden fruit, The beautiful but ungodly Cainite women, To be irresistible. And they didn"t just marry them; "they married as they chose, " which might imply that, Along with mixed marriages, Polygamy had now also entered into the line of Seth, The covenant family of God. Thus, Violent men were born. When left unchecked, Sin becomes institutionalized. In every age of salvation history, Sexual immorality and violence go hand in hand, Triggering the hard remedy of God"s judgment in the form of the covenant curses. And nothing institutionalizes sin more than marital infidelity. The whole culture gets clobbered, Especially the children. And afterward only a remnant survives, Barely. "
Basically the sons of God were humans that were not fallen in Jewish thought got with the ungodly Cainite women and had children the Fallen ones or nephlem. Most Church fathers interprint it this way and it make sense in historical context. Angle do not have bodies the same way we do they are spirits.

OK. Got it. You reject the "fallen angels" Jude refers to in Gen 6:1 as others believe based on the book of Enoch, But Jude is referring to something completely different. What is Jude referring to?

Who said angels do not have bodies? The Messiah says thee do: "Mortals in the resurrection of the body they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels [have bodies]"

Conflicts are surfacing. How do you resolve the inconsistencies of the theologians and religions with the Bible?
Turn the light of the third eye and live (Ezekiel 18)
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anonthesmallone
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6/19/2019 9:26:02 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Here is the scripture about angels having bodies in heaven.

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, But are like angels of God in heaven.
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LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 9:33:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
we do they are spirits.

OK. Got it. You reject the "fallen angels" Jude refers to in Gen 6:1 as others believe based on the book of Enoch, But Jude is referring to something completely different. What is Jude referring to?

Who said angels do not have bodies? The Messiah says thee do: "Mortals in the resurrection of the body they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels [have bodies]"

Conflicts are surfacing. How do you resolve the inconsistencies of the theologians and religions with the Bible?

Mathew 22:30 is not talking about bodies at all you are taking it out of context. All Jesus is saying that in heaven we are not gonna marry people like how angles do not marry people. In this passage, Jesus is arguing against the Sadducees who did not believe the dead will rise. They try to trick him. Jesus is saying that heaven will transcend human relationships. He not talking about bodies. This actually proves my point more than yours because it points out that angles do not have relationships like we do, Thus would not be marrying humans.
Harikrish
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6/19/2019 9:33:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Yeah that goes along with the definition. Faith is us being certain of God telling us the truth. I am just a bit confused on where we disagree.

Seeing you are Catholic. Grace is the only way Catholics can be saved. If you heard that from your priest sitting on his lap. Was his faith rewarded?
Faith is expectation of things hoped for.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Did the priest whose lap your were sitting on have faith or grace on his mind?
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 9:40:54 PM
Posted: 9 months ago

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Did the priest whose lap your were sitting on have faith or grace on his mind?

Dude what are you talking about?
Harikrish
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6/19/2019 9:45:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Did the priest whose lap your were sitting on have faith or grace on his mind?


Dude what are you talking about?

LucyInThenDebate wrote:
Well my post did not work the first time. So here it is again. I am on the Sola de Gracia, The Grace alone side of the argument. The Sola Fide or Faith alone is the protestant side of the argument. I think that faith alone is not how one is saved. I believe we are saved by grace alone.

Seeing you are Catholic. Grace is the only way Catholics can be saved. If you heard that from your priest sitting on his lap. Was his faith rewarded?
Faith is expectation of things hoped for.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.

Did the priest whose lap your were sitting on have faith or grace on his mind?
anonthesmallone
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6/19/2019 9:50:10 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
we do they are spirits.

OK. Got it. You reject the "fallen angels" Jude refers to in Gen 6:1 as others believe based on the book of Enoch, But Jude is referring to something completely different. What is Jude referring to?

Who said angels do not have bodies? The Messiah says thee do: "Mortals in the resurrection of the body they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels [have bodies]"

Conflicts are surfacing. How do you resolve the inconsistencies of the theologians and religions with the Bible?

Mathew 22:30 is not talking about bodies at all you are taking it out of context. All Jesus is saying that in heaven we are not gonna marry people like how angles do not marry people. In this passage, Jesus is arguing against the Sadducees who did not believe the dead will rise. They try to trick him. Jesus is saying that heaven will transcend human relationships. He not talking about bodies. This actually proves my point more than yours because it points out that angles do not have relationships like we do, Thus would not be marrying humans.

Are you saying we will not be resurrected into tangible spirit bodies as Paul teaches in 1 Cor 15? Didn't Christ say He had a tangible body that was not a spirit? Please explain the Biblical contradiction to your ideas. All the disciples felt a resurrect body. Thank you.
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anonthesmallone
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6/19/2019 10:08:23 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Lucy, You did not answer my question about the fallen angels of Jude vs the Sons of God. If Hari insults you about sitting on the priest's lap, Understand he is testing you to get rid of lukewarm Christians who like "agreement". There is only a few Christians left after years of spamming. If Harikrish is going to insult you, It will only get worse and worse.

Like I said, This is a board that you will net be moderated and your posts will not be removed. If you like that idea, Then DDO is for you. But prepare for insults galore. Those who really want to think and learn will stay. Free speech stuff.
Turn the light of the third eye and live (Ezekiel 18)
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Tradesecret
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6/19/2019 10:49:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
hi Lucy,

welcome to DDO.

It is pleasing to see you and to hear your views. I agree with you - grace alone. Yet, In line with Paul in Ephesians 1 saved by grave through faith. I think both go hand in hand - even to the point of faith being a gift from God.

don't stress to much about the two who have responded to your post. Anon is pretty weird. He rejects mainline religion including Christianity and thinks Catholicism is the work of the devil. He also thinks he is the (and I am being serious) reincarnated spirit of Noah and that Hari is some kind of divine prophet. He also thinks that ETs - are going to be revealed to the public soon - vindicating all of the crazy stuff he has been saying.

Hari - you will also get to know. He is racist - he hates blacks and thinks that they are the curse of Ham and thinks Christians believe that they are rightful slaves. He also thinks that I am a sexual deviant. I am not. There are others on this site who you will come to loathe or love. Ethang is one. He is nice enough and well thought out.

Again I say welcome. If you don't stay long because of the spite and hate and spam you see on here - I understand. If you wish to stay - fantastic - there are good things to do - and good ways to test your ideas - (mostly) when people listen and respond appropriately.
Tradesecret
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6/19/2019 10:50:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
HI Not sure what you mean by Satan being saved. He is an angle not human. He made a decision and can not change it. Angels are unable to change their decisions not like humans can.
It is the irrevocable character of their choice, And not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, That makes the angels" sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, Just as there is no repentance for men after death" (CCC 393).
Angles can not change their minds because they understand completely what happens in their choice.


Great post and easily understood.
Tradesecret
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6/19/2019 10:55:10 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Oh yes, Sometimes the forum does not work so well when you wish to respond. I often just copy the last post and then go to respond, Delete the post in the response box. I then paste the post I copied and respond after that. It does not always work - but since DDO has lost its moderators things have lost a fair bit of joy.
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 10:57:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Oh yes, Sometimes the forum does not work so well when you wish to respond. I often just copy the last post and then go to respond, Delete the post in the response box. I then paste the post I copied and respond after that. It does not always work - but since DDO has lost its moderators things have lost a fair bit of joy.

Oh okay thank You
Harikrish
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6/19/2019 10:57:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Tradesecret wrote:
HI Not sure what you mean by Satan being saved. He is an angle not human. He made a decision and can not change it. Angels are unable to change their decisions not like humans can.
It is the irrevocable character of their choice, And not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, That makes the angels" sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, Just as there is no repentance for men after death" (CCC 393).
Angles can not change their minds because they understand completely what happens in their choice.


Great post and easily understood.
We have your confession you are a sex deviant. You lied about living in Indian for a while. You were just passing through India on route to Nepal. You are a self confessed Pimp, Pervert and Preacher. The original sin is your problem with sex and pimping your mommy smuggler.

Harikrish wrote: Exposing a sex deviant pastor is not spamming. I always suspected you were a pervert from the smirky look on your face in your avatar.

Harikrish wrote: Exposing a sex deviant pastor is not spamming. I always suspected you were a pervert from the smirky look on your face in your avatar.

Tradesecret wrote: I deny I am a sexual deviant. I deny that I confessed the same. You have deliberately distorted my statement which stated that Harikrish has a sex problem. I was quoting Hari's own position which is why the statement says "We Indians". I am not an Indian. Harikrish is an Indian. Logically, Only an idiot would suggest that TS is an Indian or a sexual pervert.
Then you are the idiot and a sexual pervert because you did claim you are Indian. We have your confession.

I have Tradesecret's confession he is a sex deviant. Tradesecret also said: and I can say I am Indian because I lived there for a while - have a serious problem with sex.
Post #6 Title Hindu temple Rape Case.
https://www. Debate. Org/forums/religion/topic/4341728/

Tradesecret said: Us Indians - and I can say I am Indian because I lived there for a while - have a serious problem with sex.

Harikrish exposes a sex deviant Pastor on DDO name Tradesecret. It is no longer a secret.

Tradesecret wrote:
none of this can mean me - as an individual. LOL! In fact I can only be put into the we if I am Indian. LOL! I have lived in India - but I would not call myself an Indian. Using your logic I could I suppose which is why I was taking the mick out of you - despite the fact that you missed this humour.

You confessed you are not the only sex deviant, You had with you a group of sex deviants accompanying you. Note: you said: We are sex deviants. . Implying the group you were with were also sex deviants. You were passing through India on your way to Nepal, So you didn't know any Indian then.

You are a pastor visiting a country which views your religion suspiciously. Your mommy is a bible smuggler. You now confirm you are a sex deviant in a public confession " that is not a funny matter to humour about. It is public now you are a sexually perverted Pastor Tradesecret

I never visited your country as a pastor. In fact when I was there I was an atheist looking for truth. I was on my way to Nepal.
LOL! - you can't even read.
You are lying again.
You start with "I can say I am Indian because I lived there for a while - have a serious problem with sex. "

Now you say you are on your way to Nepal. So you were actually just passing through India with destination Nepal. But you lied when you claimed you lived in India for a while. It is also clear you had a problem with sex before you left for India. It's in your confession.

But that did not stop you from pursuing your sexual deviant perversions and then confessing you have a problem with sex.

You are our first sex deviant pastor going public on DDO.

Tradesecret finally confessed he is a a sex deviant. Wow!
To all Christians Tradesecret confessed he is a sex deviant.

I have Tradesecret's confession he is a sex deviant.
Post #6 Title Hindu temple Rape Case.
https://www. Debate. Org/forums/religion/topic/4341728/

Tradesecret wrote: Yeah, Us Indians - and I can say I am Indian because I lived there for a while - have a serious problem with sex. We are deviants - but this is ok - because we are just modeling our goddess. She would be proud of us. I am not proud - but she would.

You confessed you are not the only sex deviant, You had with you a group of sex deviants accompanying you. Note: you said: We are sex deviants. .

Tradesecret wrote: When I was released from slavery to sin and bondage to Satan, My eyes were opened. Although I willingly am a slave of Jesus, He does not treat me like a slave - but like a son. In fact he has promised me his inheritance. Slaves - such as you - will not receive an inheritance from your master - just death and destruction.

You further confessed you were a slave to sin. So you were aware of your sexual perversions and even went pursuing your sexual perversions in other countries.
Now you are expecting an inheritance from your master for confessing you are a liar and a sexual pervert.
Wow! See how warped and perverted your mind is and the God that would give you an inheritance for confessing you are a liar and pervert. That's Christianity in a nutshell!

We are glad to hear you have overcome some of your sexual perversions. I guess you can call us lucky for having been spared your type of afflictions.
I lived in India and been to Nepal and never looked for or saw any sexual deviants. I was a Hindu then unlike you who was in search of God and deviant sexual partners.

it is possible because you are a sex deviant you became as pastor. That's like the pedophiles who become Catholic priest to prey on children. You just got busted!

TS said: Hari is the Indian - not TS.
So you lied when you said you are Indian. You said: Us Indians - and I can say I am Indian because I lived there for a while - have a serious problem with sex.
When pressed you confessed you lied.
You said: Not really. I am not really an Indian. I am too white. I also don't individually have a problem with sex. I think sex is a good thing. It is the Indians who really had a problem with sex.
There are 1. 3 billion Indians. Sex is the least of their problems. Come get your head slapped at the Harikrish Clinic.
So you lied you are Indian. You lied Indians have a sex problem because you did not know Indians or live in India for a while, You were on your way to Nepal. But you confessed you have a problem with sex and the group you were with were sexual deviants. Note you said: we are deviants.

You also pimp your mother and brag about her smuggling Bbles in China putting her in grave danger. The penalty is death for smuggling in China.

Tradesecret wrote: BTW my mother smuggled bibles in her suitcase into China. China at the time did not permit its Christians to have unedited bibles. China, As we all know, Likes to control and determine what its people can think and do. They don't like the Bible because it expects God's people to have a higher loyalty to God than to the State. My mother of whom I am proud, Put her life on the line and her freedom, In order to ensure that people in China could have an uncensored version of the bible in their own language.

You should be embarassed for pimping your mommy smuggler, Showing your scriptural ignorance and calling people names and even lying about Harikrish's sex.
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 10:59:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Lucy, You did not answer my question about the fallen angels of Jude vs the Sons of God. If Hari insults you about sitting on the priest's lap, Understand he is testing you to get rid of lukewarm Christians who like "agreement". There is only a few Christians left after years of spamming. If Harikrish is going to insult you, It will only get worse and worse.

Please give me the Jude verse you are talking about so I can address it.

to Hari, If you want to debate then debate. Lol I thought that what this is all about.
I am here to stay.
5th time rewriting sorry if a bit short.
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 11:05:38 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
is pleasing to see you and to hear your views. I agree with you - grace alone. Yet, In line with Paul in Ephesians 1 saved by grave through faith. I think both go hand in hand - even to the point of faith being a gift from God.

don't stress to much about the two who have responded to your post. Anon is pretty weird. He rejects mainline religion including Christianity and thinks Catholicism is the work of the devil. He also thinks he is the (and I am being serious) reincarnated spirit of Noah and that Hari is some kind of divine prophet. He also thinks that ETs - are going to be revealed to the public soon - vindicating all of the crazy stuff he has been saying.

Hari - you will also get to know. He is racist - he hates blacks and thinks that they are the curse of Ham and thinks Christians believe that they are rightful slaves. He also thinks that I am a sexual deviant. I am not. There are others on this site who you will come to loathe or love. Ethang is one. He is nice enough and well thought out.

Again I say welcome. If you don't stay long because of the spite and hate and spam you see on here - I understand. If you wish to stay - fantastic - there are good things to do - and good ways to test your ideas - (mostly) when people listen and respond appropriately.


I am okay with spam lol but I do like people who actually debate.
Yes Faith goes hand in hand with grace. But I believe that Faith is not what actually makes us sanctified. It is a part of it a big part. I would ask you how do you believe justification works?
Tradesecret
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6/19/2019 11:26:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
It is pleasing to see you and to hear your views. I agree with you - grace alone. Yet, In line with Paul in Ephesians 1 saved by grave through faith. I think both go hand in hand - even to the point of faith being a gift from God.

I am okay with spam lo

I hope so - because you will see a lot of it from some on here.

l but I do like people who actually debate.

I have to say that the level of debate on this site has reduced significantly. Sometimes people will debate. I enjoy it too. Unfortunately most of what occurs at the moment is not debate. And I sadly have probably fallen into the same trap as others because the level of debate has dropped off. Still I am hopeful it can recommence again. I am the eternal optimist.

Yes Faith goes hand in hand with grace. But I believe that Faith is not what actually makes us sanctified. It is a part of it a big part. I would ask you how do you believe justification works?

Good. I don't think faith makes us sanctified. I would argue that we are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. It is his role to make us holy and blameless. This is what Ephesians 1 tells us in Paul's prayer.

For the record, I am not a Catholic. I am a protestant. Indeed a Presbyterian - in Australia. We are reformed and reforming if that makes sense.

Justification is the work of Christ. Jesus' death on the cross was necessary to propitiate our sins (the NIV uses the word atone). Anon is opposed diametrically to atonement theory as he puts it. He never however address propitiation as it is used in the Scriptures though. Christ also provides to us our righteousness. God sees Christ - and we by God's grace through faith are declared justified. Romans We cannot earn salvation - we cannot be born into it. We cannot be forced into it. It is a free gift - (John 1:13). In fact we cannot even choose it.

My view on free will is this. I think God gave humanity free will in the beginning. Yet sin tainted it so - that now although we have the free will to do whatever we want to do - but we don't necessarily have the free will to do what we ought to do. A story illustrates this - C S Lewis

a bank robber walks out the front of a bank - gun in one hand and the bag of money in the other. He looks across the road and sees a police officer. The policeman says - "stop". What ought the bank robber do? What is the right thing to do? He should walk over to the police officer and hand himself in. What will he do? His sin nature will cause him to shoot and run to escape. Free will?

The same applied to humanity and God. When we the sinner see God with our sin in our heart, What ought we do? We ought to get on our knees and repent and ask God to forgive us. What will we do? We will blame him and run away to do our own thing. The bible says the same thing. "all day long have I held out my hand, But no one - not one person came". Sin nature causes us to do the thing our nature wants us to do.

Hence God sent Jesus, While we were still sinners, And enemies of his, To pay the price for our sin - atoning for it, Covering it up, Propitiating it - and at the same time providing to us his robes as the parable tells us - his righteousness, So we don't need to trust in ourselves. He extends this to us in grace as a gift. Even faith to believe it or trust it. Jesus becomes our Adam as it were. Hope that helps. I probably digressed. Ask me another question.
LucyInThenDebate
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6/19/2019 11:41:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
ustification is the work of Christ. Jesus' death on the cross was necessary to propitiate our sins (the NIV uses the word atone). Anon is opposed diametrically to atonement theory as he puts it. He never however address propitiation as it is used in the Scriptures though. Christ also provides to us our righteousness. God sees Christ - and we by God's grace through faith are declared justified. Romans We cannot earn salvation - we cannot be born into it. We cannot be forced into it. It is a free gift - (John 1:13). In fact we cannot even choose it.

I kinda agree. The fact we cannot earn salvation is obvious. I find people often think the argument is just Faith vs Faith and Works. Which it obviously is not. The real argument is how it works. I assume by your language that you believe in the basic protestant idea of justification. So you believe that God declares us justified even though we are still unholy. The way he does this is by Jesus covers our sins. ? You see Catholics believe that we are not just covered by grace but transformed by it though the processes that Jesus put in place for us. We believe it is a process that actually makes us holy. Justification is not a one time declaration but a long process that is the journey of our souls through life. Of course this is through the grace of God not our own merit though.
anonthesmallone
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6/19/2019 11:50:16 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
Oh yes, Sometimes the forum does not work so well when you wish to respond. I often just copy the last post and then go to respond, Delete the post in the response box. I then paste the post I copied and respond after that. It does not always work - but since DDO has lost its moderators things have lost a fair bit of joy.


Oh okay thank You

If you use the reply button, You need to delete the date before the poster's name in the left hand corner. You did not lose the post. Push the internet back button until you return to your post to remove the date. Then it will post. Be assured it is not a moderator. It is a computer malfunction.
Turn the light of the third eye and live (Ezekiel 18)
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LucyInThenDebate
Posts: 77
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6/19/2019 11:53:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
anonthesmallone wrote:
LucyInThenDebate wrote:
Oh yes, Sometimes the forum does not work so well when you wish to respond. I often just copy the last post and then go to respond, Delete the post in the response box. I then paste the post I copied and respond after that. It does not always work - but since DDO has lost its moderators things have lost a fair bit of joy.


Oh okay thank You

If you use the reply button, You need to delete the date before the poster's name in the left hand corner. You did not lose the post. Push the internet back button until you return to your post to remove the date. Then it will post. Be assured it is not a moderator. It is a computer malfunction.

Thanks Did this work.

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