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Did Jesus exist?

Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.
Estragon
Posts: 222
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6/17/2018 8:46:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't suppose we will ever know for certain as to whether he actually existed and if he did what he was really like, and regarding Christianity I'm not sure it matters. What matters is that people believe he existed and if there was any evidence to the contrary it probably wouldn't alter their belief one iota.
TKDB
Posts: 821
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6/17/2018 9:23:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Factseeker: I think that Jesus having been crucified, speaks for itself towards his existence?

From Wikipedia:

"The crucifixion of Jesus occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely between AD 30 and 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is established as a historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources,[1] although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details.[2][3][4]

According to the canonical gospels, Jesus was arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin, and then sentenced by Pontius Pilate to be scourged, and finally crucified by the Romans.[5][6][7][8] Jesus was stripped of his clothing and offered wine mixed with myrrh or gall to drink before being crucified. He was then hung between two convicted thieves and, according to the Gospel of Mark, died some six hours later. During this time, the soldiers affixed a sign to the top of the cross stating "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" which, according to the Gospel of John, was written in three languages. They then divided his garments among themselves and cast lots for his seamless robe, according to the Gospel of John. According to the Gospel of John after Jesus' death, one soldier pierced his side with a spear to be certain that he had died. The Bible describes seven statements that Jesus made while he was on the cross, as well as several supernatural events that occurred.

Collectively referred to as the Passion, Jesus' suffering and redemptive death by crucifixion are the central aspects of Christian theology concerning the doctrines of salvation and atonement."
saint77
Posts: 278
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6/17/2018 9:29:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Well if you dont believe in Christ, youre not of God anyway, evidence is there for anyone that search for the truth, and theyre drawn to it by God.

If you want to dismiss God and the bible you'll get excuses for that aswell in Dan Brown novels and similar places, however in academia they agree Jesus existed.

Tacticus was just one. Josepheus and various other non-christian sources beside the new testament and the prophetic passages of the old testament are other. If you cant believe in Jesus existed you cant believe aristoteles, sokrates, homer etc existed either since sources and evidence of them existing is much less and of much later date.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/17/2018 9:38:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 8:46:02 PM, Estragon wrote:
I don't suppose we will ever know for certain as to whether he actually existed and if he did what he was really like, and regarding Christianity I'm not sure it matters. What matters is that people believe he existed and if there was any evidence to the contrary it probably wouldn't alter their belief one iota.

Hmm, just as any evidence in support of his existence doesn't alter opinions.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/17/2018 9:42:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 9:23:03 PM, TKDB wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Factseeker: I think that Jesus having been crucified, speaks for itself towards his existence?

From Wikipedia:

"The crucifixion of Jesus occurred in 1st-century Judea, most likely between AD 30 and 33. Jesus' crucifixion is described in the four canonical gospels, referred to in the New Testament epistles, attested to by other ancient sources, and is established as a historical event confirmed by non-Christian sources,[1] although there is no consensus among historians on the exact details.[2][3][4]

According to the canonical gospels, Jesus was arrested and tried by the Sanhedrin, and then sentenced by Pontius Pilate to be scourged, and finally crucified by the Romans.[5][6][7][8] Jesus was stripped of his clothing and offered wine mixed with myrrh or gall to drink before being crucified. He was then hung between two convicted thieves and, according to the Gospel of Mark, died some six hours later. During this time, the soldiers affixed a sign to the top of the cross stating "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" which, according to the Gospel of John, was written in three languages. They then divided his garments among themselves and cast lots for his seamless robe, according to the Gospel of John. According to the Gospel of John after Jesus' death, one soldier pierced his side with a spear to be certain that he had died. The Bible describes seven statements that Jesus made while he was on the cross, as well as several supernatural events that occurred.

Collectively referred to as the Passion, Jesus' suffering and redemptive death by crucifixion are the central aspects of Christian theology concerning the doctrines of salvation and atonement."

I think you misread my post. It was critical of the naysayers argument.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/17/2018 9:46:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 9:29:50 PM, saint77 wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Well if you dont believe in Christ, youre not of God anyway, evidence is there for anyone that search for the truth, and theyre drawn to it by God.

If you want to dismiss God and the bible you'll get excuses for that aswell in Dan Brown novels and similar places, however in academia they agree Jesus existed.

Tacticus was just one. Josepheus and various other non-christian sources beside the new testament and the prophetic passages of the old testament are other. If you cant believe in Jesus existed you cant believe aristoteles, sokrates, homer etc existed either since sources and evidence of them existing is much less and of much later date.

Reread my post. You've supported my position of it would be intellectually dishonest to claim Christ didn't exist because of a lack of evidence.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.

That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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6/17/2018 9:57:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 9:46:38 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:29:50 PM, saint77 wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Well if you dont believe in Christ, youre not of God anyway, evidence is there for anyone that search for the truth, and theyre drawn to it by God.

If you want to dismiss God and the bible you'll get excuses for that aswell in Dan Brown novels and similar places, however in academia they agree Jesus existed.

Tacticus was just one. Josepheus and various other non-christian sources beside the new testament and the prophetic passages of the old testament are other. If you cant believe in Jesus existed you cant believe aristoteles, sokrates, homer etc existed either since sources and evidence of them existing is much less and of much later date.

Reread my post. You've supported my position of it would be intellectually dishonest to claim Christ didn't exist because of a lack of evidence.

Yes it would. It would be equally dishonest to claim he definitely did.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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6/17/2018 9:59:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

I don't think a definitive proof of that pythagoras did or did not exist would affect anybody very much. Also, i have no idea how many independent documents, ostraca, monuments, ruins and inscriptions attest to Alexander the Great, but its probably more than for jesus.
Essentialy we are being asked to believe a god came to earth based on the uncorroborated say so of his acolytes. Even if the stories about alexander the great were no better supported by archeology than those of jesus, at least they don't require us to suspend the laws of physics. We have to believe he was a great general, but not that he could walk on water.
saint77
Posts: 278
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6/17/2018 11:01:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 9:46:38 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:29:50 PM, saint77 wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Well if you dont believe in Christ, youre not of God anyway, evidence is there for anyone that search for the truth, and theyre drawn to it by God.

If you want to dismiss God and the bible you'll get excuses for that aswell in Dan Brown novels and similar places, however in academia they agree Jesus existed.

Tacticus was just one. Josepheus and various other non-christian sources beside the new testament and the prophetic passages of the old testament are other. If you cant believe in Jesus existed you cant believe aristoteles, sokrates, homer etc existed either since sources and evidence of them existing is much less and of much later date.

Reread my post. You've supported my position of it would be intellectually dishonest to claim Christ didn't exist because of a lack of evidence.

Sorry, i just skimmed trough the posts here :) Anyway yes evidence for Jesus existing is overwhelming, despite its been 2000 years since it happened, and even the skill of reading and writing was quite rare.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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6/17/2018 11:22:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 11:01:25 PM, saint77 wrote:

Sorry, i just skimmed trough the posts here :) Anyway yes evidence for Jesus existing is overwhelming, despite its been 2000 years since it happened, and even the skill of reading and writing was quite rare.

"Overwhelming" depends on how easily one is 'overwhelmed'. in any case i am notsure if 'jesus existed' refers to a human around whom various legends grew up or to an actual virgin-bornm , miracle working god on earth. i think the evidence for the latter is distinctly 'underwhelming'.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/17/2018 11:34:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.


That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.

The point was it is intellectually dishonest to deny Christ existed based on a principle that can be applied to many well known historical figures. No claim was made that "Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus".

Jesus impacted many places as well only in a very different way, not as dramatically as a warring general.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/17/2018 11:48:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 9:59:44 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

I don't think a definitive proof of that pythagoras did or did not exist would affect anybody very much. Also, i have no idea how many independent documents, ostraca, monuments, ruins and inscriptions attest to Alexander the Great, but its probably more than for jesus.
Essentialy we are being asked to believe a god came to earth based on the uncorroborated say so of his acolytes. Even if the stories about alexander the great were no better supported by archeology than those of jesus, at least they don't require us to suspend the laws of physics. We have to believe he was a great general, but not that he could walk on water.

I understand but I don't think you would deny Pythagoras existed based on the same criticism applied to Tacitus's references to Christ.
WoeJ
Posts: 1,339
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6/18/2018 12:12:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 11:48:21 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:59:44 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

I don't think a definitive proof of that pythagoras did or did not exist would affect anybody very much. Also, i have no idea how many independent documents, ostraca, monuments, ruins and inscriptions attest to Alexander the Great, but its probably more than for jesus.
Essentialy we are being asked to believe a god came to earth based on the uncorroborated say so of his acolytes. Even if the stories about alexander the great were no better supported by archeology than those of jesus, at least they don't require us to suspend the laws of physics. We have to believe he was a great general, but not that he could walk on water.

I understand but I don't think you would deny Pythagoras existed based on the same criticism applied to Tacitus's references to Christ.

Why not? Tacitus isn't confirming Jesus. He is just confirming the existence of Christians and their beliefs.
saint77
Posts: 278
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6/18/2018 12:22:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 11:22:41 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:01:25 PM, saint77 wrote:

Sorry, i just skimmed trough the posts here :) Anyway yes evidence for Jesus existing is overwhelming, despite its been 2000 years since it happened, and even the skill of reading and writing was quite rare.

"Overwhelming" depends on how easily one is 'overwhelmed'. in any case i am notsure if 'jesus existed' refers to a human around whom various legends grew up or to an actual virgin-bornm , miracle working god on earth. i think the evidence for the latter is distinctly 'underwhelming'.

Jesus life and death is already spoken out by old testament prophets like Isaiah and Daniel, you can look in scriptures when they lived. They predate the mithras cult, odinism etc by centuries. Odin of the viking religion was also crucified. Satan imitates/copies from the bible to confuse and decieve, but if you're not a child of God you cant see it even if the evidence is right in front of your nose, because you dont want to know it, so you chose to ignore it.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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6/18/2018 12:24:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 11:34:13 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.


That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.

The point was it is intellectually dishonest to deny Christ existed based on a principle that can be applied to many well known historical figures.

No, it isn't. Go ahead and use that principle if it is sound. There is very little evidence Jesus or Aristotle existed. There is tons that Alexander did.

No claim was made that "Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus".

Then why did you bring him up?

Jesus impacted many places as well only in a very different way, not as dramatically as a warring general.

Jesus did very little- what was done in his memory was significant, Alexander did lots in the first person.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/18/2018 12:57:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 12:24:28 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:34:13 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.


That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.

The point was it is intellectually dishonest to deny Christ existed based on a principle that can be applied to many well known historical figures.

No, it isn't. Go ahead and use that principle if it is sound. There is very little evidence Jesus or Aristotle existed. There is tons that Alexander did.

No claim was made that "Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus".

Then why did you bring him up?

Jesus impacted many places as well only in a very different way, not as dramatically as a warring general.

Jesus did very little- what was done in his memory was significant, Alexander did lots in the first person.

You're making a side bar issue of ATG and I'm not contesting your point on him. Not the best example, I get it but what of others? Aristotle as you brought up or my other example. Would you assert they are myths?
ethang5
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6/18/2018 1:06:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Double standards and intellectual dishonesty are the hallmarks of militant atheism FS.

Watch how they will ooze past the point here...

The evidence for Jesus is NOT as plentiful as for Alexander the Great....

The Jesus of miracles did not exist....

We'll never really know....

Evidence for Jesus is hearsay....

Not one will be honest enough to admit that the OP's point is correct. It would be intellectually dishonest to say Christ never existed when we use the same standard to accept other historical figures with less evidence than Jesus.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/18/2018 1:09:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 1:06:26 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Double standards and intellectual dishonesty are the hallmarks of militant atheism FS.

Watch how they will ooze past the point here...

The evidence for Jesus is NOT as plentiful as for Alexander the Great....

The Jesus of miracles did not exist....

We'll never really know....

Evidence for Jesus is hearsay....

Not one will be honest enough to admit that the OP's point is correct. It would be intellectually dishonest to say Christ never existed when we use the same standard to accept other historical figures with less evidence than Jesus.

They already have but I just steer them back on point.
Phase
Posts: 252
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6/18/2018 1:17:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 12:24:28 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:34:13 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.


That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.

The point was it is intellectually dishonest to deny Christ existed based on a principle that can be applied to many well known historical figures.

No, it isn't. Go ahead and use that principle if it is sound. There is very little evidence Jesus or Aristotle existed. There is tons that Alexander did.

No claim was made that "Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus".

Then why did you bring him up?

Jesus impacted many places as well only in a very different way, not as dramatically as a warring general.

Jesus did very little- what was done in his memory was significant, Alexander did lots in the first person.

If you're going to say that, then do you see the connection between that and John 14:12?
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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6/18/2018 1:21:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 12:57:14 AM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/18/2018 12:24:28 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:34:13 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.


That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.

The point was it is intellectually dishonest to deny Christ existed based on a principle that can be applied to many well known historical figures.

No, it isn't. Go ahead and use that principle if it is sound. There is very little evidence Jesus or Aristotle existed. There is tons that Alexander did.

No claim was made that "Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus".

Then why did you bring him up?

Jesus impacted many places as well only in a very different way, not as dramatically as a warring general.

Jesus did very little- what was done in his memory was significant, Alexander did lots in the first person.

You're making a side bar issue of ATG and I'm not contesting your point on him. Not the best example, I get it but what of others? Aristotle as you brought up or my other example. Would you assert they are myths?

No, I say we don't know.

But whether he existed or not is not particularly relevant when it come to Aristotle- his teachings stand by themselves. I'm happy to concede that as a philosophy, the teachings of Jesus are similarly distinct from any truth claim regarding his actual existence,

But his actual existence and the supernatural claims made about him are central to Christianity as a set of religious beliefs.

Evidence of his existence is minimal, and of his deeds and resurrection virtually nil.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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6/18/2018 1:26:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 1:06:26 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Double standards and intellectual dishonesty are the hallmarks of militant atheism FS.

Watch how they will ooze past the point here...

The evidence for Jesus is NOT as plentiful as for Alexander the Great....

The Jesus of miracles did not exist....

We'll never really know....

Evidence for Jesus is hearsay....

Not one will be honest enough to admit that the OP's point is correct. It would be intellectually dishonest to say Christ never existed when we use the same standard to accept other historical figures with less evidence than Jesus.

Very few people say Jesus definitely did not exist- only that the evidence is weak enough to not be able to say he definitely did, and I have seen no-one not willing to make exactly the same conclusion about any other historical figure for which there is insufficient evidence.

As usual you make up strawmen.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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6/18/2018 1:27:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 1:17:25 AM, Phase wrote:
At 6/18/2018 12:24:28 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:34:13 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.


That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.

The point was it is intellectually dishonest to deny Christ existed based on a principle that can be applied to many well known historical figures.

No, it isn't. Go ahead and use that principle if it is sound. There is very little evidence Jesus or Aristotle existed. There is tons that Alexander did.

No claim was made that "Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus".

Then why did you bring him up?

Jesus impacted many places as well only in a very different way, not as dramatically as a warring general.

Jesus did very little- what was done in his memory was significant, Alexander did lots in the first person.

If you're going to say that, then do you see the connection between that and John 14:12?

No.
Phase
Posts: 252
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6/18/2018 1:37:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 1:27:51 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/18/2018 1:17:25 AM, Phase wrote:
At 6/18/2018 12:24:28 AM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:34:13 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:55:52 PM, Wizofoz wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle- yes, all may be legend rather than person.

Alexander the Great made a huge impact in many places, and there are artifacts, writings and buildings which confirm his reality.


That Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus is one of the sillier Theist tropes.

The point was it is intellectually dishonest to deny Christ existed based on a principle that can be applied to many well known historical figures.

No, it isn't. Go ahead and use that principle if it is sound. There is very little evidence Jesus or Aristotle existed. There is tons that Alexander did.

No claim was made that "Alexander has no more historical basis than Jesus".

Then why did you bring him up?

Jesus impacted many places as well only in a very different way, not as dramatically as a warring general.

Jesus did very little- what was done in his memory was significant, Alexander did lots in the first person.

If you're going to say that, then do you see the connection between that and John 14:12?

No.

Oh ok.
Factseeker
Posts: 446
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6/18/2018 2:37:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 12:12:25 AM, WoeJ wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:48:21 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:59:44 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

I don't think a definitive proof of that pythagoras did or did not exist would affect anybody very much. Also, i have no idea how many independent documents, ostraca, monuments, ruins and inscriptions attest to Alexander the Great, but its probably more than for jesus.
Essentialy we are being asked to believe a god came to earth based on the uncorroborated say so of his acolytes. Even if the stories about alexander the great were no better supported by archeology than those of jesus, at least they don't require us to suspend the laws of physics. We have to believe he was a great general, but not that he could walk on water.

I understand but I don't think you would deny Pythagoras existed based on the same criticism applied to Tacitus's references to Christ.

Why not? Tacitus isn't confirming Jesus. He is just confirming the existence of Christians and their beliefs.

"...Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Jud"a, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become... popular."https://en.wikipedia.org...

He confirmed more than just the existence of Christians.
WisdomOfAges
Posts: 888
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6/18/2018 2:53:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As a TOOL used by psychopaths obsessed with power and control of the masses of asses
ABSOLUTELY....same with the ALLAH God garbage for assimilation with FEAR-OPPRESSION-VIOLENCE...

Sad how believers in ZEUS and ODIN were very committed to their GOD...prayer, temples, rituals, favors +++ just like the retarded JESUS and ALLAH hypnotized sheeple do

Oh, but humans relegated ZEUS and ODIN to Mythology and they faded...no harm done or caused in their names...NOT SO with JESUS..just ask the Roman Catholic church of its 1500 years of oppression-murder-rape-destruction in his name...same with the Muslims and Allah...thousands of years of war-death destruction to spread their GOD disease like a cancer on humanity...still goes on NOW...conflict=death-destruction...

GOD ? so what..drown in your God garden...all need to join Zeus and Odin so no more harm is done in their names....this MATTERS...the rest of the God ritual...so what...

ALL MUST BE RENDERED HARMLESS....
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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6/18/2018 2:53:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2018 2:37:40 AM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/18/2018 12:12:25 AM, WoeJ wrote:
At 6/17/2018 11:48:21 PM, Factseeker wrote:
At 6/17/2018 9:59:44 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

I don't think a definitive proof of that pythagoras did or did not exist would affect anybody very much. Also, i have no idea how many independent documents, ostraca, monuments, ruins and inscriptions attest to Alexander the Great, but its probably more than for jesus.
Essentialy we are being asked to believe a god came to earth based on the uncorroborated say so of his acolytes. Even if the stories about alexander the great were no better supported by archeology than those of jesus, at least they don't require us to suspend the laws of physics. We have to believe he was a great general, but not that he could walk on water.

I understand but I don't think you would deny Pythagoras existed based on the same criticism applied to Tacitus's references to Christ.

Why not? Tacitus isn't confirming Jesus. He is just confirming the existence of Christians and their beliefs.

"...Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Jud"a, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become... popular."https://en.wikipedia.org...

He confirmed more than just the existence of Christians.

Yes, he confirmed their beliefs. He did not tender evidence that those beliefs were factual.
SecularMerlin
Posts: 7,228
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6/18/2018 2:54:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2018 8:13:50 PM, Factseeker wrote:
Many times the idea of Jesus actually being an actual historical figure is dismissed due to a "lack of evidence". To be more precise historians like Tacitus who wrote of Christ, have been criticized for having been born some 50 yrs after the crucifixion of Jesus; he wasn't a direct contemporary of Jesus; therefore we only have his word that Christ was crucified of whom he wrote. Thus seemingly reducing Jesus Christ of the bible a mythical figure.

But if we were to follow that line of reasoning then we would have to conclude other historical figures have no attestation for existence either. Take the famous mathematician Pythagoras for example. Bits of information about him didn't surface until 150 yrs after his death. https://plato.stanford.edu... And to this day there are no contemporary writings on Pythagoras. With the criticisms of Christ we can question the existence of Alexander the Great as well but with these figures it would be intellectually dishonest and I believe the same is true for Christ.

The idea that an actual rabiticle appocolypse predicting Jewish rabbi of that name or a similar one existed is not beyond the scope of possibility. There could also have been a wise old man named Merlin who advised Arthur but if he existed (which we have little actual evidence of) I do not believe that this person was literally magical. My objections to the historicity of Merlin is not his status as a historical figure It is to his supposed sorcery. My objection to the historicity of jesus is not his status as a historical figure it is his supposed divinity.

My objection to the historicity of your other examples is merely that if these men existed their adventures might have been exerated. None of them asks me to believe in propositions which I have no observable proof are possible.
The only true wisdom lies in knowing that you know nothing.
-Socrates

Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality
-Lewis Carrol

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