Total Posts:54|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Christian Denominations

Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?
kasmic
Posts: 1,405
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2016 8:47:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I dont think one will be named. It seems to me (as a non believer) that a core concept of Christianity is that there is a divide between man and God and that the Gap has to be closed by God that man cannot through works or any other means close this gap without divine assistance i.e. Christ.
"An Unpopular Opinion" https://medium.com...

"Liberalism Defined" http://www.debate.org...
"The Social Contract" http://www.debate.org...
"Intro to IR An Open Discussion" http://www.debate.org...
Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2016 10:28:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 8:47:05 PM, kasmic wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I dont think one will be named. It seems to me (as a non believer) that a core concept of Christianity is that there is a divide between man and God and that the Gap has to be closed by God that man cannot through works or any other means close this gap without divine assistance i.e. Christ.

This would be the monergistic view, and I agree that it makes the most sense.

There are actually quite few monergistic denominations.
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..
Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 12:25:59 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?


Don't take it personally, the Bible does not support denominations or divisions, actually the opposite so we know "denominations" are man-made, not scripturally made

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!


It is simple, read the Gospels and Epistles.

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I think the word you are looking for is what Jesus illustrates as "abiding".....application, that is what separates the men from the boys in all aspects.
The only position one can take in regards to Christianity is application/abiding.....in what Jesus taught. That is what qualifies any individual.
Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 1:01:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 12:25:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?


Don't take it personally, the Bible does not support denominations or divisions, actually the opposite so we know "denominations" are man-made, not scripturally made

We could start a new thread about that, because I don't believe that to be entirely true.

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!


It is simple, read the Gospels and Epistles.

Simple, but not easy. Hence all the division.

I think the word you are looking for is what Jesus illustrates as "abiding".....application, that is what separates the men from the boys in all aspects.
The only position one can take in regards to Christianity is application/abiding.....in what Jesus taught. That is what qualifies any individual.

I'm asking if anyone can think of a Christian church that doesn't fall under one of these 2 categories.
EtrnlVw
Posts: 6,062
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 1:09:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 1:01:18 AM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/10/2016 12:25:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?


Don't take it personally, the Bible does not support denominations or divisions, actually the opposite so we know "denominations" are man-made, not scripturally made

We could start a new thread about that, because I don't believe that to be entirely true.


Explain please, in regards to my observations.

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!


It is simple, read the Gospels and Epistles.

Simple, but not easy. Hence all the division.


Then you can point out the discrepancy of divisions, while I can show you the opposite...?

I think the word you are looking for is what Jesus illustrates as "abiding".....application, that is what separates the men from the boys in all aspects.
The only position one can take in regards to Christianity is application/abiding.....in what Jesus taught. That is what qualifies any individual.

I'm asking if anyone can think of a Christian church that doesn't fall under one of these 2 categories.

Cool, do you disagree with my observation though?
Dogknox
Posts: 6,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 1:21:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 1:01:18 AM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/10/2016 12:25:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?


Don't take it personally, the Bible does not support denominations or divisions, actually the opposite so we know "denominations" are man-made, not scripturally made

We could start a new thread about that, because I don't believe that to be entirely true.

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!


It is simple, read the Gospels and Epistles.

Simple, but not easy. Hence all the division.

I think the word you are looking for is what Jesus illustrates as "abiding".....application, that is what separates the men from the boys in all aspects.
The only position one can take in regards to Christianity is application/abiding.....in what Jesus taught. That is what qualifies any individual.

I'm asking if anyone can think of a Christian church that doesn't fall under one of these 2 categories.
Parad0x8 good to meet you..
I reply... Christians eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus in the form of bread and wine... They call it "Eucharist"!! They always have and still do!!
Ignatius of Antioch is a CHRISTIAN.. A pupil of the Apostle John!
He said..
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Parad0x8 Christians have ALWAYS communed with the living flesh of Jesus, he is IN the Christian.. Literally!
Irenaeus is another early CHRISTIAN... he said..
"If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?" (Against Heresies 4:33"32 [A.D. 189]).

Irenaeus Also baptized infants!!
He said..
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Christians have ALWAYS baptized infants.. Hippolytus is a Early CHRISTIAN
He said..
"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

The Didache is a CHRISTIAN book of practice...A.D. 70
Christians have ALWAYS confessed their sins in Church!
"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord"s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 70]).

Parad0x8 Christians have ALWAYS drank Jesus' blood to be redemed..
The APOSTLE Paul is CHRISTIAN.. He said..
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
Dogknox
Posts: 6,484
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 1:28:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 1:09:40 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/10/2016 1:01:18 AM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/10/2016 12:25:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?


Don't take it personally, the Bible does not support denominations or divisions, actually the opposite so we know "denominations" are man-made, not scripturally made

We could start a new thread about that, because I don't believe that to be entirely true.


Explain please, in regards to my observations.

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!


It is simple, read the Gospels and Epistles.

Simple, but not easy. Hence all the division.


Then you can point out the discrepancy of divisions, while I can show you the opposite...?

I think the word you are looking for is what Jesus illustrates as "abiding".....application, that is what separates the men from the boys in all aspects.
The only position one can take in regards to Christianity is application/abiding.....in what Jesus taught. That is what qualifies any individual.

I'm asking if anyone can think of a Christian church that doesn't fall under one of these 2 categories.

Cool, do you disagree with my observation though?

EtrnlVw Good to meet you..
I reply: I agree with you.. Jesus established one CHURCH!! The Church was commissioned by Jesus in person to; Make DISCIPLES by baptizing them!
Jesus left on earth a Church with the AUTHORITY of God, before he ascended into heaven!

EtrnlVw Denominations are a man made substitute for Jesus' one Church, they have no authority, all are forced to reject the scriptures to be a denomination!
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 3:50:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

Ahh, but which translation do you believe? Perhaps you might believe the GNB, that is the Catholic Study Bible, which says in John 20: 17; Where Jesus says to Mary Magdalene, "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet gone back up to the Father."
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 10:26:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

A study of history and which denomination has the heritage and consistency of teaching across the age from Jesus until now. This is how you can find out which Christian denomination has the ability to claim it is the authentic Church of Christ.

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

I just did.

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

There is arminianism. It is essentially Monergism, but that you can resist God's grace. There are even some blends of them all.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 10:32:41 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

If you love me, keep my commandments.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." "Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?" "Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/10/2016 11:01:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 10:32:41 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

If you love me, keep my commandments.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." "Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?" "Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

he only gave two, love the lord your God and love your neighbour...

but if we are to keep the commandments perfectly, no one will be saved and why did Jesus come...
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 12:21:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 11:01:45 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/10/2016 10:32:41 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

If you love me, keep my commandments.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." "Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?" "Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

he only gave two, love the lord your God and love your neighbour...

but if we are to keep the commandments perfectly, no one will be saved and why did Jesus come...

So how are you saved? Just by saying I believe, or by putting your belief into action in the manner that the apostles taught?
BibleGuy119
Posts: 289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 12:27:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
So how are you saved? Just by saying I believe, or by putting your belief into action in the manner that the apostles taught?

Good point! Those who desire eternal life (Lk. 10:25) should obey the commands of the law (Lk. 10:26-28), just as the disciples understood and likewise obeyed.
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 2:07:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2016 12:27:38 AM, BibleGuy119 wrote:
So how are you saved? Just by saying I believe, or by putting your belief into action in the manner that the apostles taught?


Good point! Those who desire eternal life (Lk. 10:25) should obey the commands of the law (Lk. 10:26-28), just as the disciples understood and likewise obeyed.

Like Paul says in Romans 7:7-11New International Version (NIV) in reference to "The Law and Sin."

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."[a] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

A good Christian is sitting out on his porch one night, when he sees a young lad running for his life and who leapt his fence and hid behind some bushes. Just then, a mob of dope madden hoons with baseball bats in their hands came around the corner, and demanded if the good Christian knew where the young lad had gone.

He has two options, refuse to lie, and thereby save his immortal soul, and have the young lad beaten to within an inch of his life. Or lie and lead the mob away from their intended victim.

Does he sin by lying? Or does he sin by telling the truth?
BibleGuy119
Posts: 289
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 7:34:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Good point! Those who desire eternal life (Lk. 10:25) should obey the commands of the law (Lk. 10:26-28), just as the disciples understood and likewise obeyed.


Like Paul says in Romans 7:7-11New International Version (NIV) in reference to "The Law and Sin."

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."[a] 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

A good Christian is sitting out on his porch one night, when he sees a young lad running for his life and who leapt his fence and hid behind some bushes. Just then, a mob of dope madden hoons with baseball bats in their hands came around the corner, and demanded if the good Christian knew where the young lad had gone.

He has two options, refuse to lie, and thereby save his immortal soul, and have the young lad beaten to within an inch of his life. Or lie and lead the mob away from their intended victim.

Does he sin by lying? Or does he sin by telling the truth?

Ok....I think you're trying to dodge my point.

I showed that Jesus taught obedience to law (Lk. 10:25-28).

Do you maintain that Paul (Rom. 7) disproves Jesus (Lk. 10:25-28) ? (If so, that's a scary position to take).

Or perhaps you believe that moral dilemmas (e.g., the good Christian sitting on his porch scenario) renders Lk. 10:25-28 incorrect? (If so, then you're evidently not advocating a Biblical position).

So, how do you square Lk. 10:25-28 with your position?

Or Mt. 5:19? (which shows that Torah-obedience determines our position in the forthcoming kingdom)

Or Mt. 7:21-23? (which shows that even religious people who disobey Torah will be cast away)

Or Mt. 13:41-42? (which shows that anti-Torah people will surface the furnace of fire)

Or Mt. 22:37 (which applies Dt. 6:4-25 to you!)
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 8:26:07 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

N0! The bible does not teach that I'm afraid, either quote the scriptures correctly, and cease to make a mockery of his words.

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of your ancestors, has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc.

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in " HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

THE bible does not teach that we must believe in Jesus to have eternal, but that we must believe in "HIM" who sent the man Jesus to speak in his name to have eternal life.
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 9:08:34 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2016 8:26:07 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

N0! The bible does not teach that I'm afraid, either quote the scriptures correctly, and cease to make a mockery of his words.

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of your ancestors, has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc.

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in " HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

THE bible does not teach that we must believe in Jesus to have eternal, but that we must believe in "HIM" who sent the man Jesus to speak in his name to have eternal life.

john 3:16

for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomsoever shall believe on him shall not perish but have ever lasting life...

belief on Jesus as the required sacrifice to fulfil the law is what allows us to be saved...

if keeping the commandments saves us why did Jesus come...??
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 9:12:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2016 12:21:33 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/10/2016 11:01:45 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/10/2016 10:32:41 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

If you love me, keep my commandments.

"Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me." "Then they themselves also will answer, "Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?" "Then He will answer them, "Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me." "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

he only gave two, love the lord your God and love your neighbour...

but if we are to keep the commandments perfectly, no one will be saved and why did Jesus come...

So how are you saved? Just by saying I believe, or by putting your belief into action in the manner that the apostles taught?

you are saved by believing on the sacrifice that Jesus made for us, you then receive the free gift of his righteousness....

belief saves you after that, following, fruits all follow...
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 10:15:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2016 9:08:34 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/11/2016 8:26:07 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

N0! The bible does not teach that I'm afraid, either quote the scriptures correctly, and cease to make a mockery of his words.

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of your ancestors, has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc.

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in " HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

THE bible does not teach that we must believe in Jesus to have eternal, but that we must believe in "HIM" who sent the man Jesus to speak in his name to have eternal life.

john 3:16

for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomsoever shall believe on him shall not perish but have ever lasting life...

Which was not the man Jesus, but the spirit of the Lord, "The son of Man who is The Son of God," which spirit descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove.

belief on Jesus as the required sacrifice to fulfil the law is what allows us to be saved...

Incorrect! Belief in "HIM" who chose the man Jesus from among the Israelites to speak on his name, who was the true sacrifice, "The Anointed One" who could not die, who abandoned his chosen successor on the cross, and ceased to be an individual identity, by releasing the righteous spirits upon which he had evolved up until that point in time, which spirits then came out of their graves and three days later entered the city of Jerusalem and showed themselves as the risen CHRIST, who is the only man in scripture to have been taken to heaven and anointed by the MOST HIGH as his successor, to stand before his face into all eternity.

if keeping the commandments saves us why did Jesus come...?

Keeping the commandments can never save you. "He who sheds man's blood, by man must his blood be shed." Those who obeyed God's command and have executed the psychopathic murderers of this world are the warriors of God.

Jesus was the body that God had prepared for his Son [The Son of Man] In which he would reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice he pays for the sins of the body of mankind in which he develops.
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 10:24:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2016 10:15:45 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/11/2016 9:08:34 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/11/2016 8:26:07 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

N0! The bible does not teach that I'm afraid, either quote the scriptures correctly, and cease to make a mockery of his words.

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of your ancestors, has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc.

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in " HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

THE bible does not teach that we must believe in Jesus to have eternal, but that we must believe in "HIM" who sent the man Jesus to speak in his name to have eternal life.

john 3:16

for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomsoever shall believe on him shall not perish but have ever lasting life...

Which was not the man Jesus, but the spirit of the Lord, "The son of Man who is The Son of God," which spirit descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove.

belief on Jesus as the required sacrifice to fulfil the law is what allows us to be saved...

Incorrect! Belief in "HIM" who chose the man Jesus from among the Israelites to speak on his name, who was the true sacrifice, "The Anointed One" who could not die, who abandoned his chosen successor on the cross, and ceased to be an individual identity, by releasing the righteous spirits upon which he had evolved up until that point in time, which spirits then came out of their graves and three days later entered the city of Jerusalem and showed themselves as the risen CHRIST, who is the only man in scripture to have been taken to heaven and anointed by the MOST HIGH as his successor, to stand before his face into all eternity.

if keeping the commandments saves us why did Jesus come...?

Keeping the commandments can never save you. "He who sheds man's blood, by man must his blood be shed." Those who obeyed God's command and have executed the psychopathic murderers of this world are the warriors of God.

Jesus was the body that God had prepared for his Son [The Son of Man] In which he would reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice he pays for the sins of the body of mankind in which he develops.

no...... the sacrifice Jesus made was what saves us, belief on that sacrifice, then we have the free gift of the righteousness of Jesus...

our good deeds, law keeping cannot save us....
Gentorev
Posts: 5,981
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 10:58:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2016 10:24:19 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/11/2016 10:15:45 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/11/2016 9:08:34 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/11/2016 8:26:07 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

N0! The bible does not teach that I'm afraid, either quote the scriptures correctly, and cease to make a mockery of his words.

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of your ancestors, has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc.

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in " HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

THE bible does not teach that we must believe in Jesus to have eternal, but that we must believe in "HIM" who sent the man Jesus to speak in his name to have eternal life.

john 3:16

for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomsoever shall believe on him shall not perish but have ever lasting life...

Which was not the man Jesus, but the spirit of the Lord, "The son of Man who is The Son of God," which spirit descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove.

belief on Jesus as the required sacrifice to fulfil the law is what allows us to be saved...

Incorrect! Belief in "HIM" who chose the man Jesus from among the Israelites to speak on his name, who was the true sacrifice, "The Anointed One" who could not die, who abandoned his chosen successor on the cross, and ceased to be an individual identity, by releasing the righteous spirits upon which he had evolved up until that point in time, which spirits then came out of their graves and three days later entered the city of Jerusalem and showed themselves as the risen CHRIST, who is the only man in scripture to have been taken to heaven and anointed by the MOST HIGH as his successor, to stand before his face into all eternity.

if keeping the commandments saves us why did Jesus come...?

Keeping the commandments can never save you. "He who sheds man's blood, by man must his blood be shed." Those who obeyed God's command and have executed the psychopathic murderers of this world are the warriors of God.

Jesus was the body that God had prepared for his Son [The Son of Man] In which he would reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice he pays for the sins of the body of mankind in which he develops.

no...... the sacrifice Jesus made was what saves us, belief on that sacrifice, then we have the free gift of the righteousness of Jesus...

our good deeds, law keeping cannot save us....

Just a Isaac the son of God's promise to Abraham was offered up as a sacrifice, so too was the man Jesus, but God produced a substitute sacrifice for both.

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year=the one year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

From the Secrets of Enoch; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face. And the Lord (Who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel which could save but one man) said to his servants tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious ones bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go or be released according to Thy word."

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

Enoch is the stone that the builders of your church has rejected, and he has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words and believes in 'HIM' WHO SENT ME has eternal life.
graceofgod
Posts: 10,088
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/11/2016 4:35:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/11/2016 10:58:04 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/11/2016 10:24:19 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/11/2016 10:15:45 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/11/2016 9:08:34 AM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/11/2016 8:26:07 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...

N0! The bible does not teach that I'm afraid, either quote the scriptures correctly, and cease to make a mockery of his words.

Moses asked God for his name in order that he might be able to tell the Israelites in Egypt, who had sent him. And God said; Exodus 3: 14; "I Am Who I Am/YHVH." You must tell them: 'The one who is called "I AM/JHVH" has sent me to you.' Tell the Israelites that I, the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, have sent you to them.

Acts 3: 13; "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of your ancestors, has given glory to his servant Jesus.

Deuteronomy 18: 18; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will tell him what to say, and he will tell the people everything I command. He will speak in my name etc.

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had prophesied that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in " HIM" who sent me, has eternal life.

THE bible does not teach that we must believe in Jesus to have eternal, but that we must believe in "HIM" who sent the man Jesus to speak in his name to have eternal life.

john 3:16

for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whomsoever shall believe on him shall not perish but have ever lasting life...

Which was not the man Jesus, but the spirit of the Lord, "The son of Man who is The Son of God," which spirit descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove.

belief on Jesus as the required sacrifice to fulfil the law is what allows us to be saved...

Incorrect! Belief in "HIM" who chose the man Jesus from among the Israelites to speak on his name, who was the true sacrifice, "The Anointed One" who could not die, who abandoned his chosen successor on the cross, and ceased to be an individual identity, by releasing the righteous spirits upon which he had evolved up until that point in time, which spirits then came out of their graves and three days later entered the city of Jerusalem and showed themselves as the risen CHRIST, who is the only man in scripture to have been taken to heaven and anointed by the MOST HIGH as his successor, to stand before his face into all eternity.

if keeping the commandments saves us why did Jesus come...?

Keeping the commandments can never save you. "He who sheds man's blood, by man must his blood be shed." Those who obeyed God's command and have executed the psychopathic murderers of this world are the warriors of God.

Jesus was the body that God had prepared for his Son [The Son of Man] In which he would reveal himself and the awesome sacrifice he pays for the sins of the body of mankind in which he develops.

no...... the sacrifice Jesus made was what saves us, belief on that sacrifice, then we have the free gift of the righteousness of Jesus...

our good deeds, law keeping cannot save us....

Just a Isaac the son of God's promise to Abraham was offered up as a sacrifice, so too was the man Jesus, but God produced a substitute sacrifice for both.

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year=the one year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

From the Secrets of Enoch; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face. And the Lord (Who held the ransom blood of righteous Abel which could save but one man) said to his servants tempting them: "Let Enoch stand before my face into eternity," and the glorious ones bowed down to the Lord, and said: "Let Enoch go or be released according to Thy word."

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun"s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

Enoch is the stone that the builders of your church has rejected, and he has turned out to be the most important stone of all.

John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words and believes in 'HIM' WHO SENT ME has eternal life.

enoch cannot save us, the bible is clear that the only way to the father is through the only begotten son, Jesus.....
Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2016 5:43:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 1:09:40 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/10/2016 1:01:18 AM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/10/2016 12:25:59 AM, EtrnlVw wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?


Don't take it personally, the Bible does not support denominations or divisions, actually the opposite so we know "denominations" are man-made, not scripturally made

We could start a new thread about that, because I don't believe that to be entirely true.


Explain please, in regards to my observations.

I'd be glad to, if you want to start a thread about it.

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!


It is simple, read the Gospels and Epistles.

Simple, but not easy. Hence all the division.


Then you can point out the discrepancy of divisions, while I can show you the opposite...?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. You want me to show the division among denominations?

I think the word you are looking for is what Jesus illustrates as "abiding".....application, that is what separates the men from the boys in all aspects.
The only position one can take in regards to Christianity is application/abiding.....in what Jesus taught. That is what qualifies any individual.

I'm asking if anyone can think of a Christian church that doesn't fall under one of these 2 categories.

Cool, do you disagree with my observation though?

Yes, or I just don't understand what you are saying.
Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2016 6:13:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 3:50:40 AM, Gentorev wrote:
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

Ahh, but which translation do you believe? Perhaps you might believe the GNB, that is the Catholic Study Bible, which says in John 20: 17; Where Jesus says to Mary Magdalene, "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet gone back up to the Father."

Doesn't really matter for this topic, since we're not talking about which is right or wrong.

Do you know of any Christian denomination who doesn't hold to either:

God completes his work on his own

or

God works with us to complete it
Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2016 6:21:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 8:58:26 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 11:53:12 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
At 12/9/2016 10:57:56 PM, graceofgod wrote:
At 12/9/2016 8:40:41 PM, Parad0x8 wrote:
I want to see how many people can make use of this. There is a lot of confusion, and frustration from members and critics alike, regarding the amount of different denominations that identify as Christian. How can anyone know which is the right one? or if there even is a "right" one?

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

While the difference among all the denominations are plenty, I believe there only are 2 true positions to have, from which all the rest stem off of.

Monergism - The position in Christian theology that God, through the Holy Spirit, works to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration, irrespective of the individual's cooperation.

Synergism - The position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom.

(wikipedia)

Using these 2 positions, you can categorize all 30k-40k denominations.

If you examine each, I tihnk you will notice that depending on which position they hold to, their Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) will develop accordingly, and from that their doctrine.

Some believe God saves, and some believe God makes savable.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

I am a Christian, I trust the whole bible, try to keep it in context, trust the Holy Spirit to teach me , keep the bible as the ultimate guideline, people can be wrong, denominations can be wrong, keep to God and the bible..

True, but do you know of any denominations (including non-denominational denominations lol), that wouldn't fit into either category?

the bible teaches that through Jesus a way of salvation was made possible for everyone, all you have to do is believe on him...


For sure. So which way do you understand this statement? In a synergistic way or a monergistic way?
Parad0x8
Posts: 108
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/12/2016 6:46:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/10/2016 10:26:31 PM, Geogeer wrote:
A study of history and which denomination has the heritage and consistency of teaching across the age from Jesus until now. This is how you can find out which Christian denomination has the ability to claim it is the authentic Church of Christ.

A study of history at the time of Jesus, would have shown that the Pharisees and Sadducees had the heritage and consistency of teaching, yet they killed Jesus.

This is why I said I'm not going to answer that, because just about everything I can say will be disputed, and I want to stick to identifying any system of Christian belief that does NOT fall under one of the 2: Monergistm or Syngergism

That certainly will not be answered by me or anyone else anytime soon, so my aim is to try and make it simpler!

I just did.

You gave your answer, not THE answer.

Can anyone point to a denomination that does NOT fall under one of these two positions?

There is arminianism. It is essentially Monergism, but that you can resist God's grace. There are even some blends of them all.


"Synergism is upheld by the Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches, and by the Methodist and Pentecostal traditions of Protestantism.[1][2][3] It is an integral part of Arminian theology.[4][5]"

(wikipedia)

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.