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Salvation, Grace, Works

Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
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1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?

Non-Catholic Christians claim they are different from Catholics (in part) because Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation.
Catholic church dogma flatly refutes this.

The Catholic church has has to defend itself against heretics, most notably the Gnostics, but others as well, for over 1700 years.
Younger churches, who are about 500 years old, have not had nearly the same problem.

The Anabaptist churches are known to say "No creed but the New Testament."
The Apostles creed, and the Nicene creed were established as tests of allegiance for church members. Anabaptists reject these creeds, not on content, but on principle.

The Catholic church has had to formalize its beliefs, something other churches refuse to do, primarily because that necessity has not arisen.

I have been in Anabaptist churches, and heard members say quite clearly that they expect supernatural rewards in heaven for their good works.
I have heard Anabaptist preachers say that if their heart were not right with God, they better get their affairs in order before Communion. This is not an option, as Christians who are in good standing with God will take communion. This is understood.

Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Anabaptists were under threat of death for being baptised as adults, if they had been baptized as infants.
Still, they believed this act was necessary.
They believed their infant baptism was not legitimate.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a person who has salvation will want baptism.

Christians believe that their salvation through the grace of God and faith will lead to good works.
The Catholic church formalized these beliefs, making it a requirement.
The Catholic church requires members to take communion and do good works.
The Anabaptist churches expect members to do the same, even as they expect them to accept the points of the Apostles creed, but do not make these things a requirement to members.
Neither groups says these are necessary for salvation.

On the point of salvation and works, that is the difference between Catholics and other Christians.
With one it is formalized, with the other it is understood.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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1/23/2017 5:02:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?

Non-Catholic Christians claim they are different from Catholics (in part) because Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation.
Catholic church dogma flatly refutes this.

The Catholic church has has to defend itself against heretics, most notably the Gnostics, but others as well, for over 1700 years.
Younger churches, who are about 500 years old, have not had nearly the same problem.

The Anabaptist churches are known to say "No creed but the New Testament."
The Apostles creed, and the Nicene creed were established as tests of allegiance for church members. Anabaptists reject these creeds, not on content, but on principle.

The Catholic church has had to formalize its beliefs, something other churches refuse to do, primarily because that necessity has not arisen.

I have been in Anabaptist churches, and heard members say quite clearly that they expect supernatural rewards in heaven for their good works.
I have heard Anabaptist preachers say that if their heart were not right with God, they better get their affairs in order before Communion. This is not an option, as Christians who are in good standing with God will take communion. This is understood.

Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Anabaptists were under threat of death for being baptised as adults, if they had been baptized as infants.
Still, they believed this act was necessary.
They believed their infant baptism was not legitimate.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a person who has salvation will want baptism.

Christians believe that their salvation through the grace of God and faith will lead to good works.
The Catholic church formalized these beliefs, making it a requirement.
The Catholic church requires members to take communion and do good works.
The Anabaptist churches expect members to do the same, even as they expect them to accept the points of the Apostles creed, but do not make these things a requirement to members.
Neither groups says these are necessary for salvation.

On the point of salvation and works, that is the difference between Catholics and other Christians.
With one it is formalized, with the other it is understood.

That would be the stark contrasting difference between believers and non-believers. Believers do good things because they believe they'll get rewarded, hence they are just being selfish. Non-believers expect no rewards for doing good deeds, they are not the selfish ones.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Unterseeboot
Posts: 202
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1/23/2017 5:11:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?

Non-Catholic Christians claim they are different from Catholics (in part) because Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation.
Catholic church dogma flatly refutes this.

The Catholic church has has to defend itself against heretics, most notably the Gnostics, but others as well, for over 1700 years.
Younger churches, who are about 500 years old, have not had nearly the same problem.

The Anabaptist churches are known to say "No creed but the New Testament."
The Apostles creed, and the Nicene creed were established as tests of allegiance for church members. Anabaptists reject these creeds, not on content, but on principle.

The Catholic church has had to formalize its beliefs, something other churches refuse to do, primarily because that necessity has not arisen.

I have been in Anabaptist churches, and heard members say quite clearly that they expect supernatural rewards in heaven for their good works.
I have heard Anabaptist preachers say that if their heart were not right with God, they better get their affairs in order before Communion. This is not an option, as Christians who are in good standing with God will take communion. This is understood.

Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Anabaptists were under threat of death for being baptised as adults, if they had been baptized as infants.
Still, they believed this act was necessary.
They believed their infant baptism was not legitimate.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a person who has salvation will want baptism.

Christians believe that their salvation through the grace of God and faith will lead to good works.
The Catholic church formalized these beliefs, making it a requirement.
The Catholic church requires members to take communion and do good works.
The Anabaptist churches expect members to do the same, even as they expect them to accept the points of the Apostles creed, but do not make these things a requirement to members.
Neither groups says these are necessary for salvation.

On the point of salvation and works, that is the difference between Catholics and other Christians.
With one it is formalized, with the other it is understood.

But you over-generalized when you said that ALL Christians believe that Salvation and Heaven await all those who have Faith and do good works. By the Grace of God.
You forgot to mention Calvinist doctrine, and his "Limited Grace" idea. Which says that, in accordance to God's Will, not ALL Christians will be saved, no matter how good a life they lead, how many good works they do, or how hard they pray. They could all be Mother Theresas and still not be Saved. This, according to Calvin.
On the other side of the coin, which I find more interesting for some reason. Calvin thinks there is also a thing called "Irresistible Grace." This is when, no matter how hard you try to ignore it and be a sinner and an atheist and an all-around bad guy, if God decides to bestow his Grace upon you...that is to say: Give you The Call...then you cannot resist. Like it or not you're goin' to Heaven, man! LOL
Of course Calvin admits he does not know why God chooses or eschews whom He does. It's all part of His Mysterious Will, I guess. I don't know why, but these tenets of Calvinism make sense to me, and I think I'd have to say I believe them. Though I am more of a Deist than a Theist and am by no stretch of the imagination a Biblical Literalist or a fundamentalist like Calvin was.
v3nesl
Posts: 6,821
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1/23/2017 5:22:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?


I'd say 2 things:
1) The reformist view is really that good works are an effect of salvation. So required/not-required kind of misses the point. As I see it, a good life is God's gift to us, not something we do for him. Part of the reason I pick Jerry Garcia for my avatar is that I know my life would have ended much as his did were it not for God's rescue. So sobriety is his gift to me, not something I expect brownie points for.
2) So having that perspective, I see rewards as more on the order of "We get paid for this". Whatever we do to serve the kingdom, we turn in our expense sheet and we'll be paid from the eternal treasury in a coming day. I remember getting pulled into my boss's office after turning in my first corporate expense sheet. I didn't know what kind of trouble I was going to be in, but it was the opposite of what I expected: "You ate a pizza in your hotel room? This makes everybody else look bad. Go out and have a nice dinner when we send you someplace" So again, I think the right way to see it - it's a priceless privilege to get a job working for the kingdom.

The whole thing is a gift, even our faith. The whole thing is God's idea, set in motion before the world began. Only let us respond with all our hearts, and not worry about trying to do bookkeeping on it.
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v3nesl
Posts: 6,821
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1/23/2017 5:32:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 5:11:13 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?

Non-Catholic Christians claim they are different from Catholics (in part) because Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation.
Catholic church dogma flatly refutes this.

The Catholic church has has to defend itself against heretics, most notably the Gnostics, but others as well, for over 1700 years.
Younger churches, who are about 500 years old, have not had nearly the same problem.

The Anabaptist churches are known to say "No creed but the New Testament."
The Apostles creed, and the Nicene creed were established as tests of allegiance for church members. Anabaptists reject these creeds, not on content, but on principle.

The Catholic church has had to formalize its beliefs, something other churches refuse to do, primarily because that necessity has not arisen.

I have been in Anabaptist churches, and heard members say quite clearly that they expect supernatural rewards in heaven for their good works.
I have heard Anabaptist preachers say that if their heart were not right with God, they better get their affairs in order before Communion. This is not an option, as Christians who are in good standing with God will take communion. This is understood.

Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Anabaptists were under threat of death for being baptised as adults, if they had been baptized as infants.
Still, they believed this act was necessary.
They believed their infant baptism was not legitimate.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a person who has salvation will want baptism.

Christians believe that their salvation through the grace of God and faith will lead to good works.
The Catholic church formalized these beliefs, making it a requirement.
The Catholic church requires members to take communion and do good works.
The Anabaptist churches expect members to do the same, even as they expect them to accept the points of the Apostles creed, but do not make these things a requirement to members.
Neither groups says these are necessary for salvation.

On the point of salvation and works, that is the difference between Catholics and other Christians.
With one it is formalized, with the other it is understood.


But you over-generalized when you said that ALL Christians believe that Salvation and Heaven await all those who have Faith and do good works. By the Grace of God.
You forgot to mention Calvinist doctrine, and his "Limited Grace" idea. Which says that, in accordance to God's Will, not ALL Christians will be saved,

I wouldn't put it that way - Calvin never said that God will refuse anybody. It's just that you'd never want to be a christian if he didn't call you first. I think Calvin went too far in trying to resolve the free will/predestination thing - better to leave God's business as being above our pay grade. Jesus put it together in one sentence "No one can come to me unless the Father calls him, and whoever comes to me I will never turn away". So we should come to him all the more confidently for realizing that he must have called us if we wish to come to him.
This space for rent.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
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1/23/2017 7:47:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 5:11:13 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?

Non-Catholic Christians claim they are different from Catholics (in part) because Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation.
Catholic church dogma flatly refutes this.

The Catholic church has has to defend itself against heretics, most notably the Gnostics, but others as well, for over 1700 years.
Younger churches, who are about 500 years old, have not had nearly the same problem.

The Anabaptist churches are known to say "No creed but the New Testament."
The Apostles creed, and the Nicene creed were established as tests of allegiance for church members. Anabaptists reject these creeds, not on content, but on principle.

The Catholic church has had to formalize its beliefs, something other churches refuse to do, primarily because that necessity has not arisen.

I have been in Anabaptist churches, and heard members say quite clearly that they expect supernatural rewards in heaven for their good works.
I have heard Anabaptist preachers say that if their heart were not right with God, they better get their affairs in order before Communion. This is not an option, as Christians who are in good standing with God will take communion. This is understood.

Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Anabaptists were under threat of death for being baptised as adults, if they had been baptized as infants.
Still, they believed this act was necessary.
They believed their infant baptism was not legitimate.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a person who has salvation will want baptism.

Christians believe that their salvation through the grace of God and faith will lead to good works.
The Catholic church formalized these beliefs, making it a requirement.
The Catholic church requires members to take communion and do good works.
The Anabaptist churches expect members to do the same, even as they expect them to accept the points of the Apostles creed, but do not make these things a requirement to members.
Neither groups says these are necessary for salvation.

On the point of salvation and works, that is the difference between Catholics and other Christians.
With one it is formalized, with the other it is understood.


But you over-generalized when you said that ALL Christians believe that Salvation and Heaven await all those who have Faith and do good works. By the Grace of God.
You forgot to mention Calvinist doctrine, and his "Limited Grace" idea. Which says that, in accordance to God's Will, not ALL Christians will be saved, no matter how good a life they lead, how many good works they do, or how hard they pray. They could all be Mother Theresas and still not be Saved. This, according to Calvin.
On the other side of the coin, which I find more interesting for some reason. Calvin thinks there is also a thing called "Irresistible Grace." This is when, no matter how hard you try to ignore it and be a sinner and an atheist and an all-around bad guy, if God decides to bestow his Grace upon you...that is to say: Give you The Call...then you cannot resist. Like it or not you're goin' to Heaven, man! LOL
Of course Calvin admits he does not know why God chooses or eschews whom He does. It's all part of His Mysterious Will, I guess. I don't know why, but these tenets of Calvinism make sense to me, and I think I'd have to say I believe them. Though I am more of a Deist than a Theist and am by no stretch of the imagination a Biblical Literalist or a fundamentalist like Calvin was.

The word "all" does not appear in my post, only the general reference to "Christians".
Archaholic
Posts: 1,875
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1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR
v3nesl
Posts: 6,821
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1/23/2017 9:26:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
...

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid.

It's only stupid if you think you earn salvation somehow. It's either works or it's not. If it's not works, then time-before-death is irrelevant. If the fireman hears you 20 seconds before you die, he still drags you out, right? That's the way saving (salvation) works.

I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory,

And on the other side we have West Virginia, for kind of good people. Almost heaven, West Virginia.

in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

I dunno, seems to me the concept of retribution is instinctive, and deeply rooted. Perhaps you mean, it's insane to suffer forever for temporary sinfulness. That I can relate to, but do you think Hitler should get off with the easy out of suicide, after all the misery he deliberately caused?
This space for rent.
Unterseeboot
Posts: 202
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1/23/2017 10:37:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 5:32:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/23/2017 5:11:13 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?

Non-Catholic Christians claim they are different from Catholics (in part) because Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation.
Catholic church dogma flatly refutes this.

The Catholic church has has to defend itself against heretics, most notably the Gnostics, but others as well, for over 1700 years.
Younger churches, who are about 500 years old, have not had nearly the same problem.

The Anabaptist churches are known to say "No creed but the New Testament."
The Apostles creed, and the Nicene creed were established as tests of allegiance for church members. Anabaptists reject these creeds, not on content, but on principle.

The Catholic church has had to formalize its beliefs, something other churches refuse to do, primarily because that necessity has not arisen.

I have been in Anabaptist churches, and heard members say quite clearly that they expect supernatural rewards in heaven for their good works.
I have heard Anabaptist preachers say that if their heart were not right with God, they better get their affairs in order before Communion. This is not an option, as Christians who are in good standing with God will take communion. This is understood.

Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Anabaptists were under threat of death for being baptised as adults, if they had been baptized as infants.
Still, they believed this act was necessary.
They believed their infant baptism was not legitimate.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a person who has salvation will want baptism.

Christians believe that their salvation through the grace of God and faith will lead to good works.
The Catholic church formalized these beliefs, making it a requirement.
The Catholic church requires members to take communion and do good works.
The Anabaptist churches expect members to do the same, even as they expect them to accept the points of the Apostles creed, but do not make these things a requirement to members.
Neither groups says these are necessary for salvation.

On the point of salvation and works, that is the difference between Catholics and other Christians.
With one it is formalized, with the other it is understood.


But you over-generalized when you said that ALL Christians believe that Salvation and Heaven await all those who have Faith and do good works. By the Grace of God.
You forgot to mention Calvinist doctrine, and his "Limited Grace" idea. Which says that, in accordance to God's Will, not ALL Christians will be saved,

I wouldn't put it that way - Calvin never said that God will refuse anybody. It's just that you'd never want to be a christian if he didn't call you first. I think Calvin went too far in trying to resolve the free will/predestination thing - better to leave God's business as being above our pay grade. Jesus put it together in one sentence "No one can come to me unless the Father calls him, and whoever comes to me I will never turn away". So we should come to him all the more confidently for realizing that he must have called us if we wish to come to him.

Yes, Calvin DID put it that way. What I said about how he thought God refuses to save some. It's part of his TULIP ethos. Under the U. Here is an abstract from an article on that.....
Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.

Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).

This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.

The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.
Archaholic
Posts: 1,875
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1/24/2017 3:42:57 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 9:26:46 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
...

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid.

It's only stupid if you think you earn salvation somehow. It's either works or it's not. If it's not works, then time-before-death is irrelevant. If the fireman hears you 20 seconds before you die, he still drags you out, right? That's the way saving (salvation) works.

Yes, I've also thought that. But I don't think any person who says yes to christianity just before dying can be saved. I mean, there should be something more. I gather there are certain people destined to be christians, and no matter what they do during their lives, either good or bad, they should be saved at the last minute if it's necessary. If they get christians long before dead, much better.

I want to make clear that I'm not a christian. I'm just trying to understand the logic of this religion.

I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory,

And on the other side we have West Virginia, for kind of good people. Almost heaven, West Virginia.

I'm sorry, I didn't get it. What is this about?

in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

I dunno, seems to me the concept of retribution is instinctive, and deeply rooted. Perhaps you mean, it's insane to suffer forever for temporary sinfulness. That I can relate to, but do you think Hitler should get off with the easy out of suicide, after all the misery he deliberately caused?
Hummm... I don't think the same way, because who cares about what will happen after the end of the times? Doing justice while we are alive makes sense because we witness how people get punished. But while we are dead, who cares about that? It's nonsense. Hell seems to be a way to detere people from committing sins. Unless it's something simbolic, I don't know.
matt8800
Posts: 2,773
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1/24/2017 4:02:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 4:48:33 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Are there any Christians here who believe they will not have supernatural rewards in heaven for the good works they do?

Non-Catholic Christians claim they are different from Catholics (in part) because Catholics believe works are necessary for salvation.
Catholic church dogma flatly refutes this.

The Catholic church has has to defend itself against heretics, most notably the Gnostics, but others as well, for over 1700 years.
Younger churches, who are about 500 years old, have not had nearly the same problem.

The Anabaptist churches are known to say "No creed but the New Testament."
The Apostles creed, and the Nicene creed were established as tests of allegiance for church members. Anabaptists reject these creeds, not on content, but on principle.

The Catholic church has had to formalize its beliefs, something other churches refuse to do, primarily because that necessity has not arisen.

I have been in Anabaptist churches, and heard members say quite clearly that they expect supernatural rewards in heaven for their good works.
I have heard Anabaptist preachers say that if their heart were not right with God, they better get their affairs in order before Communion. This is not an option, as Christians who are in good standing with God will take communion. This is understood.

Faith alone is necessary for salvation.
Anabaptists were under threat of death for being baptised as adults, if they had been baptized as infants.
Still, they believed this act was necessary.
They believed their infant baptism was not legitimate.
Baptism is not necessary for salvation, but a person who has salvation will want baptism.

Christians believe that their salvation through the grace of God and faith will lead to good works.
The Catholic church formalized these beliefs, making it a requirement.
The Catholic church requires members to take communion and do good works.
The Anabaptist churches expect members to do the same, even as they expect them to accept the points of the Apostles creed, but do not make these things a requirement to members.
Neither groups says these are necessary for salvation.

On the point of salvation and works, that is the difference between Catholics and other Christians.
With one it is formalized, with the other it is understood.

If the cracker and wine actually turn into human flesh and blood, doesn't that make you a cannibal?
v3nesl
Posts: 6,821
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1/24/2017 2:26:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/24/2017 3:42:57 AM, Archaholic wrote:
At 1/23/2017 9:26:46 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
...

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid.

It's only stupid if you think you earn salvation somehow. It's either works or it's not. If it's not works, then time-before-death is irrelevant. If the fireman hears you 20 seconds before you die, he still drags you out, right? That's the way saving (salvation) works.

Yes, I've also thought that. But I don't think any person who says yes to christianity just before dying can be saved. I mean, there should be something more.

The 'more' is that Jesus died for us. God himself suffered the results of man's rebellion so he could have the ethical right to forgive those that rebelled. That's a very non-religious jargon way to think of it. God gave man free will, suffered the consequences of free will.

The third piece of that puzzle is that our free will, and all of our being, was designed to be in relationship with God. We are like planets designed to orbit the sun. All sin against God is us falling out of orbit - we cannot be good in isolation, only when we fulfill our purpose in relationship to others. So the cure for our sin is to be put back in orbit. That's "salvation" in the Christian lingo. There comes a time when a person realizes they have fallen out of orbit and they allow God to put them back. So when we allow God to put us back is secondary. We'd have gotten further in life if we allowed God to fix us early on, but better late than never.

And on the other side we have West Virginia, for kind of good people. Almost heaven, West Virginia.

I'm sorry, I didn't get it. What is this about?


A little American joke. It's stupid, never mind.

Hummm... I don't think the same way, because who cares about what will happen after the end of the times?

Well, that's forever, so it is this short term side of end times that's less important. This is preparation, after death is when real life starts.

Doing justice while we are alive makes sense because we witness how people get punished. But while we are dead, who cares about that? It's nonsense. Hell seems to be a way to detere people from committing sins. Unless it's something simbolic, I don't know.

I also feel the pointlessness of punishing after death, so I might not be the one to answer that. But Jesus also used the Greek name for Jerusalem's garbage dump to refer to hell, so that's another way to see it. What is to be done with the people who refuse to be put back in orbit, that is the question.

God has a bit of a conundrum: He doesn't want to force anyone to be a Christian, but on the other hand, there is no viable alternative.
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bulproof
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1/24/2017 2:32:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/24/2017 2:26:00 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:42:57 AM, Archaholic wrote:
At 1/23/2017 9:26:46 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
...

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid.

It's only stupid if you think you earn salvation somehow. It's either works or it's not. If it's not works, then time-before-death is irrelevant. If the fireman hears you 20 seconds before you die, he still drags you out, right? That's the way saving (salvation) works.

Yes, I've also thought that. But I don't think any person who says yes to christianity just before dying can be saved. I mean, there should be something more.

The 'more' is that Jesus died for us. God himself suffered the results of man's rebellion so he could have the ethical right to forgive those that rebelled. That's a very non-religious jargon way to think of it. God gave man free will, suffered the consequences of free will.
How does an omnipotent god suffer?
When did man rebel?
Who provided this ethical right?
What are the consequences of free will and how did they make your god suffer?
v3nesl
Posts: 6,821
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1/24/2017 2:37:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/24/2017 2:32:24 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/24/2017 2:26:00 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:42:57 AM, Archaholic wrote:
At 1/23/2017 9:26:46 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
...

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid.

It's only stupid if you think you earn salvation somehow. It's either works or it's not. If it's not works, then time-before-death is irrelevant. If the fireman hears you 20 seconds before you die, he still drags you out, right? That's the way saving (salvation) works.

Yes, I've also thought that. But I don't think any person who says yes to christianity just before dying can be saved. I mean, there should be something more.

The 'more' is that Jesus died for us. God himself suffered the results of man's rebellion so he could have the ethical right to forgive those that rebelled. That's a very non-religious jargon way to think of it. God gave man free will, suffered the consequences of free will.
How does an omnipotent god suffer?

First tell me why you don't want to know the answer to any of your questions? Why have YOU turned against God? I can't answer unless you first are honest about where you're coming from.

Were you abused by a religious authority figure? Did you lose a loved one? Do you just think you're smarter than the average bear? What's your story...
This space for rent.
bulproof
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1/24/2017 2:42:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/24/2017 2:37:04 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/24/2017 2:32:24 PM, bulproof wrote:
At 1/24/2017 2:26:00 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:42:57 AM, Archaholic wrote:
At 1/23/2017 9:26:46 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
...

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid.

It's only stupid if you think you earn salvation somehow. It's either works or it's not. If it's not works, then time-before-death is irrelevant. If the fireman hears you 20 seconds before you die, he still drags you out, right? That's the way saving (salvation) works.

Yes, I've also thought that. But I don't think any person who says yes to christianity just before dying can be saved. I mean, there should be something more.

The 'more' is that Jesus died for us. God himself suffered the results of man's rebellion so he could have the ethical right to forgive those that rebelled. That's a very non-religious jargon way to think of it. God gave man free will, suffered the consequences of free will.
How does an omnipotent god suffer?

First tell me why you don't want to know the answer to any of your questions? Why have YOU turned against God? I can't answer unless you first are honest about where you're coming from.

Were you abused by a religious authority figure? Did you lose a loved one? Do you just think you're smarter than the average bear? What's your story...
Why do you make all these claims and when questioned about them you run and hide?
Is it because you know they are lies?
Is your fear of your god so great that you can't even bring yourself to confront these questions?
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
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1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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1/24/2017 4:30:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.

The problem with your over-the-top examples is that they all equate non-belief in your God to drug overdoses, wayward children and wasted lives. It's a sad state of affairs if you are compelled to not only set up false premises that lead to specious conclusions, you also have to use over-the-top examples of deathbeds and drug overdoses to sell your religion. Such a religion is not worthy of consideration.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Archaholic
Posts: 1,875
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1/25/2017 2:05:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

Or maybe it's up to the nature of each person. Perhaps this thief that Jesus saved had a "good heart" and ended up being a thief and crucified due to the fault of his fate. I can't find another explanation. I think we as human beings are determined mostly by our nature. And my experience makes me truly believe that there are evil people who were born this way, and I see impossible they could be christians because christians are meant for people with "good heart".

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

I'm sorry, I have to disent. Not everyone is a potential christian. As I said, there are people who were born evil, that are meant to hurt others. No matter how much effort they put into good deeds, it's in their nature to be evil. Think about a psycopath, they always end up hurting someone.

On the other hand, these people with "good heart" might probably be living a wrong life. As you said, they can fall into drug abuse, prostitution, or whatever inmoral act is, but in the end it's not their fault, so it's quite possible for them to change. Not all, because not everyone was born with "good heart". For example, let's say Mr. Dannejerusse deep down is a good guy and he's just confused by atheism. We can say he's a potential christian, but maybe he needs more time to realize about it. lol.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

That's OK, but you've got to take into consideration that in the bible it's always suggested that you can always find a" Judas" in a group. Or you can always find a "Cain" in a family. So, not everybody are meant to be saved.

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.
Ok, I've got it. But my point is that it depends on the nature of each person, someones were born to be the wheat, and others to be the weed. Think about Judas, Jesus always knew he was going to betray him because evil was part of Judas' nature.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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1/25/2017 4:13:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/25/2017 2:05:42 AM, Archaholic wrote:
For example, let's say Mr. Dannejerusse deep down is a good guy and he's just confused by atheism.
Only godists like you are confused by atheism, atheists aren't especially not Dann.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
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1/25/2017 3:13:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/25/2017 2:05:42 AM, Archaholic wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:


BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

Or maybe it's up to the nature of each person. Perhaps this thief that Jesus saved had a "good heart" and ended up being a thief and crucified due to the fault of his fate. I can't find another explanation. I think we as human beings are determined mostly by our nature. And my experience makes me truly believe that there are evil people who were born this way, and I see impossible they could be christians because christians are meant for people with "good heart".

The Christian perspective is everyone, without exception, is born sinful.
I do not think this equates with everyone is evil.
The idea of "born evil" is dubious, has no scientific support that I have heard of. The nature/nurture debate has been around for a century or so. There was a time when prevailing thought was that it is mostly nurture. We see more and more nature as the years go by, but nurture is still very critical.
It may be true that due to DNA, selfish self-interest actions are easy, but the importance of the first six years of our life is often underrated.
I do not see evidence that from conception, some individuals will be evil. Sinful, in a secular sense, yes, probably true for everyone.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

I'm sorry, I have to disent. Not everyone is a potential christian. As I said, there are people who were born evil, that are meant to hurt others. No matter how much effort they put into good deeds, it's in their nature to be evil. Think about a psycopath, they always end up hurting someone.

Well, we disagree. Psychopaths are made, not born, is what I would say.
At some point, there are probably some people who can not turn their life around I would agree with that. However, there is a potential for each individual. Nothing in our DNA precludes us from becoming a 'good person'. A 'Scrooge conversion'.

On the other hand, these people with "good heart" might probably be living a wrong life. As you said, they can fall into drug abuse, prostitution, or whatever inmoral act is, but in the end it's not their fault, so it's quite possible for them to change. Not all, because not everyone was born with "good heart". For example, let's say Mr. Dannejerusse deep down is a good guy and he's just confused by atheism. We can say he's a potential christian, but maybe he needs more time to realize about it. lol.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

That's OK, but you've got to take into consideration that in the bible it's always suggested that you can always find a" Judas" in a group. Or you can always find a "Cain" in a family. So, not everybody are meant to be saved.

Everyone is a potential winner of the lottery. Just because not everyone wins does not change the fact that each individual could have been a winner.
Not everyone will be saved, but everyone could be saved. That is the main line Christian perspective. Calvinists excluded.

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.
Ok, I've got it. But my point is that it depends on the nature of each person, someones were born to be the wheat, and others to be the weed. Think about Judas, Jesus always knew he was going to betray him because evil was part of Judas' nature.

Judas was a zealot, who believed he could push Jesus into being the sword welding saviour he wanted.
That is the common belief among biblical scholars.
He did not want Jesus dead. He wanted Jesus to rise up and be the conquering hero. We can be confident he and Jesus had conversations about this, and Jesus told him that was not his path. He was a man of peace, Judas wanted a different sort of saviour.
Like Christians who insist "the Jews" killed Jesus, most say Judas was evil.
No Judas, no crucifixion. He had a key role in the passion play.

Jesus does not want any person to be evil. If he believed Judas was evil, he had the power to change that, if we believe the Christian narrative. If we reject the Christian narrative, Jesus had the power to advise his disciples, and they could have delt with them.
We do not have to believe Jesus was divine to believe he was a good man, who did not want Judas to have the guilt that caused him to take his own life.
Evil individuals do not become overcome with guilt and take their own life.
Judas had good intentions, but allowed his selfish interests to lead him to make bad choices.
Jesus believed Judas was part of the divine plan.
I believe he was repentant in the moments before his death, and Jesus knew this, and forgave him, because what he did was God's will.

JMHO
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
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1/25/2017 3:16:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/24/2017 4:30:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.

The problem with your over-the-top examples is that they all equate non-belief in your God to drug overdoses, wayward children and wasted lives. It's a sad state of affairs if you are compelled to not only set up false premises that lead to specious conclusions, you also have to use over-the-top examples of deathbeds and drug overdoses to sell your religion. Such a religion is not worthy of consideration.

As you have been told before, I have no religion to sell.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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1/25/2017 6:48:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/25/2017 3:16:50 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/24/2017 4:30:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.

The problem with your over-the-top examples is that they all equate non-belief in your God to drug overdoses, wayward children and wasted lives. It's a sad state of affairs if you are compelled to not only set up false premises that lead to specious conclusions, you also have to use over-the-top examples of deathbeds and drug overdoses to sell your religion. Such a religion is not worthy of consideration.

As you have been told before, I have no religion to sell.

Of course, you're trying to sell a religion, if you weren't, then you have no need to fabricate lies about atheism, much like a snake-oil salesman would do.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
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1/25/2017 7:45:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/25/2017 6:48:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/25/2017 3:16:50 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/24/2017 4:30:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.

The problem with your over-the-top examples is that they all equate non-belief in your God to drug overdoses, wayward children and wasted lives. It's a sad state of affairs if you are compelled to not only set up false premises that lead to specious conclusions, you also have to use over-the-top examples of deathbeds and drug overdoses to sell your religion. Such a religion is not worthy of consideration.

As you have been told before, I have no religion to sell.

Of course, you're trying to sell a religion, if you weren't, then you have no need to fabricate lies about atheism, much like a snake-oil salesman would do.

Your logic is.....worthless.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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1/25/2017 7:49:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/25/2017 7:45:31 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/25/2017 6:48:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/25/2017 3:16:50 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/24/2017 4:30:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.

The problem with your over-the-top examples is that they all equate non-belief in your God to drug overdoses, wayward children and wasted lives. It's a sad state of affairs if you are compelled to not only set up false premises that lead to specious conclusions, you also have to use over-the-top examples of deathbeds and drug overdoses to sell your religion. Such a religion is not worthy of consideration.

As you have been told before, I have no religion to sell.

Of course, you're trying to sell a religion, if you weren't, then you have no need to fabricate lies about atheism, much like a snake-oil salesman would do.

Your logic is.....worthless.

Logic, reason and rationale are all worthless to the religious believer, that's nothing new.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,678
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1/25/2017 8:28:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/25/2017 7:49:23 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/25/2017 7:45:31 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/25/2017 6:48:46 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/25/2017 3:16:50 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/24/2017 4:30:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/24/2017 3:24:45 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 1/23/2017 7:53:58 PM, Archaholic wrote:
I understand, according to christianity, that good works is the consequence of being a christian, and not a cause or requirement to get into the heaven. So, christians don't do good things expecting something in return, they just do so naturally, as a consequence of having accepted Jesus, God, or whatever it is. There are even some christian churches in which good deeds are not a priority, they don't teach about that, because they know it's something that christians are expected to do without being asked.

However, there are some christian doctrines that I don't fully understand, as the one that says that if you become a christian just minutes before you die, then you're forgiven and rewarded with heaven. That's silly, almost stupid. I think that is why catholic church introduced the concept of purgatory, in order to make justice or to make sense to that nonsense. The same could be said about hell, it's insane.

BR

The thief on the cross beside Jesus recognized his innocence, knew Jesus was did not deserve to die, and asked to be remembered when Jesus came to power in hevean. Jesus promised him that he would be in heaven, despite his criminal background.
Death bed confession leads to salvation.
In reality, it is unlikely a person would refuse to ask for salvation (and live accordingly), then after many years suddenly change their mind just before death.
Insincere comes to mind. Not acceptable.
"Scrooge conversions" are more common. A long life of selfish greed, and sin, sudden realization with only a few years left, and good works to make amends.

To help understand this look at the slippery slope alternatives.
How much time before death would be fair?
Do you have to think you have many years ahead, or forgiveness is not possible?
Do you have to accept the calling the very first time, or it doesn't count?
If you try a rational approach, as an outsider, what other system makes sense?
It may not seem 'fair' to give someone salvation to someone who was a career criminal and avowed atheist for 50 years, but what system is more 'fair'?

Everyone is a potential prodigal son to Jesus.
What parent would refuse to welcome a child back, no matter how long they had been astray, living a wasteful life, denying all wishes of the parent.
Your child is a drug addict, who stole from you and others. You arrive just after they took a lethal dose. They look into your eye with obvious remorse, tell you they are sorry, and ask forgiveness. Does the parent tell them they waited too long, or tell them they are loved and forgiven.

As an outsider it is easy to see God as this distantly removed judge.
Make it more personal.
Think of it as the parent of a child who has wasted their life, turned their back on friends and family, then has a deathbed realization that that is exactly what they have done, wasted their life. They now want forgiveness, and the love of a parent, a love they refused time and again for many years.
Does the just parent refuse them, to teach them a lesson?

There is a parable Jesus told.
A wealthy land owner had fields of crops that unexpectedly had to be harvested.
He sent his foreman out to find workers, promising them a certain wage if they helped harvest the crops. Many started working immediately. The foreman was still enlisting workers by mid day, so those workers did not work nearly as long.
At the end of the day the master paid all of the workers, and the late comers got paid the same as those who worked all day. The ones who worked all day complained, this did not seem fair.
The master told them they had nothingness by to complain about, they agreed to a certain wage for certain work and that is what they got. If he chose to be more generous to other workers that was his business, not theirs.
Fair does not always mean equal.

The problem with your over-the-top examples is that they all equate non-belief in your God to drug overdoses, wayward children and wasted lives. It's a sad state of affairs if you are compelled to not only set up false premises that lead to specious conclusions, you also have to use over-the-top examples of deathbeds and drug overdoses to sell your religion. Such a religion is not worthy of consideration.

As you have been told before, I have no religion to sell.

Of course, you're trying to sell a religion, if you weren't, then you have no need to fabricate lies about atheism, much like a snake-oil salesman would do.

Your logic is.....worthless.

Logic, reason and rationale are all worthless to the religious believer, that's nothing new.
So you do not understand the use of possessive pronouns.
I am not surprised.

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