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Indoctrination

cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/14/2017 1:19:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
One of the things that turned me off to religion, especially Christianity, was that most of my peers, when I was young, claimed to be Christian but few really acted like the character that they claimed was a real life example of correct living. I didn't understand this so I reckoned that no God/Jesus really existed.
I've heard all of the arguments of the "no true Christians" and "the narrow path" however I have a different idea of what is happening. All religions seem to rely on the indoctrination of the young to perpetuate . Most people gain their faith from their parents and culture. They don't come by the faith through true contemplation when able to comprehend the ramifications of giving one's soul and life to a deity. We in this society do not let children decide on whether to drink alcohol or whether to carry a gun yet these things are trivial compared to where one may spend eternity and how one governs one's life until death. It is deemed perfectly okay for a child, who has little to no understanding of these concepts, to decide to take up the faith they are spoon feed.
My theory is that if children were not taught religion (yes you can teach morality without a specific deity) until they were old enough to understand the concepts and they were given a choice of what faith to follow with out social pressure then two things would happen.
A) there would be less religious. (win for the atheist)
B) those who did choose a faith would be much more likely to follow it correctly and be good examples of their chosen faith. (win for the religious)
All religions seem to need Indoctrination and social pressure to continue. It appears then that faith is an "in" club instead of a spiritual path. This does not speak well of a real deity. It does tell very clearly of man made gods though.
In this parenting model I feel that it would either eliminate theist if god only existed as a human force or eliminate atheist by showing only certain paths lead to truly spiritual people.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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2/14/2017 2:24:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
You're asking parents to withhold what they consider to be the truth, from their children.

That's not going to happen.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,687
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2/14/2017 4:23:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 1:19:19 PM, cedertree wrote:
One of the things that turned me off to religion, especially Christianity, was that most of my peers, when I was young, claimed to be Christian but few really acted like the character that they claimed was a real life example of correct living. I didn't understand this so I reckoned that no God/Jesus really existed.
I've heard all of the arguments of the "no true Christians" and "the narrow path" however I have a different idea of what is happening. All religions seem to rely on the indoctrination of the young to perpetuate . Most people gain their faith from their parents and culture. They don't come by the faith through true contemplation when able to comprehend the ramifications of giving one's soul and life to a deity. We in this society do not let children decide on whether to drink alcohol or whether to carry a gun yet these things are trivial compared to where one may spend eternity and how one governs one's life until death. It is deemed perfectly okay for a child, who has little to no understanding of these concepts, to decide to take up the faith they are spoon feed.
My theory is that if children were not taught religion (yes you can teach morality without a specific deity) until they were old enough to understand the concepts and they were given a choice of what faith to follow with out social pressure then two things would happen.
A) there would be less religious. (win for the atheist)
B) those who did choose a faith would be much more likely to follow it correctly and be good examples of their chosen faith. (win for the religious)
All religions seem to need Indoctrination and social pressure to continue. It appears then that faith is an "in" club instead of a spiritual path. This does not speak well of a real deity. It does tell very clearly of man made gods though.
In this parenting model I feel that it would either eliminate theist if god only existed as a human force or eliminate atheist by showing only certain paths lead to truly spiritual people.

Indoctrination is something we all live through from cradle to grave, it is just that some of us are more fussy than others which bits of the indoctrination we accept and which we do not.

I happily and willingly accept all the indoctrination provided in scripture, but very little else, unless it fits into the same pattern as scripture. However I was always a rebel and refused the majority of the indoctrination that I was offered by my parents, in school, and in Sunday school.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Harikrish
Posts: 34,138
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2/14/2017 5:12:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 4:23:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/14/2017 1:19:19 PM, cedertree wrote:
One of the things that turned me off to religion, especially Christianity, was that most of my peers, when I was young, claimed to be Christian but few really acted like the character that they claimed was a real life example of correct living. I didn't understand this so I reckoned that no God/Jesus really existed.
I've heard all of the arguments of the "no true Christians" and "the narrow path" however I have a different idea of what is happening. All religions seem to rely on the indoctrination of the young to perpetuate . Most people gain their faith from their parents and culture. They don't come by the faith through true contemplation when able to comprehend the ramifications of giving one's soul and life to a deity. We in this society do not let children decide on whether to drink alcohol or whether to carry a gun yet these things are trivial compared to where one may spend eternity and how one governs one's life until death. It is deemed perfectly okay for a child, who has little to no understanding of these concepts, to decide to take up the faith they are spoon feed.
My theory is that if children were not taught religion (yes you can teach morality without a specific deity) until they were old enough to understand the concepts and they were given a choice of what faith to follow with out social pressure then two things would happen.
A) there would be less religious. (win for the atheist)
B) those who did choose a faith would be much more likely to follow it correctly and be good examples of their chosen faith. (win for the religious)
All religions seem to need Indoctrination and social pressure to continue. It appears then that faith is an "in" club instead of a spiritual path. This does not speak well of a real deity. It does tell very clearly of man made gods though.
In this parenting model I feel that it would either eliminate theist if god only existed as a human force or eliminate atheist by showing only certain paths lead to truly spiritual people.

Indoctrination is something we all live through from cradle to grave, it is just that some of us are more fussy than others which bits of the indoctrination we accept and which we do not.

I happily and willingly accept all the indoctrination provided in scripture, but very little else, unless it fits into the same pattern as scripture. However I was always a rebel and refused the majority of the indoctrination that I was offered by my parents, in school, and in Sunday school.

You claim you rebelled against your parents and school but accepted the indoctrination provided in scriptures. How did that lead to your disfellowshipped and shunning by Jehovah's earthly organization? You were baptized in 1984. But you ran away from your 3 children and their mother after you committed to Jehovah. In short you went against Jehovah, his earthly organization and your 3 children and their mother as an adult father of 3. That was long past your rebellion against your school and parents. You were a grownup father with 3 children of your own and not some immature juvenile. Have you caught up with your real age which is 68? You seem to be stuck in your past and making excuses like some delinquent juvenile when most of your mistakes were made when you were an adult father of 3 children.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 5,316
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2/14/2017 5:19:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 4:23:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/14/2017 1:19:19 PM, cedertree wrote:
One of the things that turned me off to religion, especially Christianity, was that most of my peers, when I was young, claimed to be Christian but few really acted like the character that they claimed was a real life example of correct living. I didn't understand this so I reckoned that no God/Jesus really existed.
I've heard all of the arguments of the "no true Christians" and "the narrow path" however I have a different idea of what is happening. All religions seem to rely on the indoctrination of the young to perpetuate . Most people gain their faith from their parents and culture. They don't come by the faith through true contemplation when able to comprehend the ramifications of giving one's soul and life to a deity. We in this society do not let children decide on whether to drink alcohol or whether to carry a gun yet these things are trivial compared to where one may spend eternity and how one governs one's life until death. It is deemed perfectly okay for a child, who has little to no understanding of these concepts, to decide to take up the faith they are spoon feed.
My theory is that if children were not taught religion (yes you can teach morality without a specific deity) until they were old enough to understand the concepts and they were given a choice of what faith to follow with out social pressure then two things would happen.
A) there would be less religious. (win for the atheist)
B) those who did choose a faith would be much more likely to follow it correctly and be good examples of their chosen faith. (win for the religious)
All religions seem to need Indoctrination and social pressure to continue. It appears then that faith is an "in" club instead of a spiritual path. This does not speak well of a real deity. It does tell very clearly of man made gods though.
In this parenting model I feel that it would either eliminate theist if god only existed as a human force or eliminate atheist by showing only certain paths lead to truly spiritual people.

Indoctrination is something we all live through from cradle to grave, it is just that some of us are more fussy than others which bits of the indoctrination we accept and which we do not.

I happily and willingly accept all the indoctrination provided in scripture, but very little else, unless it fits into the same pattern as scripture. However I was always a rebel and refused the majority of the indoctrination that I was offered by my parents, in school, and in Sunday school.

Before ya know it , Sunday school turns into full blown church.
It's knowing that time.
The change from making macaroni jewelry for mum , and painting fridge quality pictures every week, to sitting in the big building with the adults.
I cringe when I see a sharp dressed 6 year old running around the church playground on a Sunday. BMX should be more important then learning about um. Well . Crap.
( I think ) .
I wish you could all have non over the top religious devoted parents.
Having 2 Mommies or 2 Daddys would ( I think) seem more normal.

I'm going to look into the stats on
Two Christians having, a Muslim baby.
I'll get back to you.
Deb-8-A-Bull
Posts: 5,316
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2/14/2017 5:24:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 4:23:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/14/2017 1:19:19 PM, cedertree wrote:
One of the things that turned me off to religion, especially Christianity, was that most of my peers, when I was young, claimed to be Christian but few really acted like the character that they claimed was a real life example of correct living. I didn't understand this so I reckoned that no God/Jesus really existed.
I've heard all of the arguments of the "no true Christians" and "the narrow path" however I have a different idea of what is happening. All religions seem to rely on the indoctrination of the young to perpetuate . Most people gain their faith from their parents and culture. They don't come by the faith through true contemplation when able to comprehend the ramifications of giving one's soul and life to a deity. We in this society do not let children decide on whether to drink alcohol or whether to carry a gun yet these things are trivial compared to where one may spend eternity and how one governs one's life until death. It is deemed perfectly okay for a child, who has little to no understanding of these concepts, to decide to take up the faith they are spoon feed.
My theory is that if children were not taught religion (yes you can teach morality without a specific deity) until they were old enough to understand the concepts and they were given a choice of what faith to follow with out social pressure then two things would happen.
A) there would be less religious. (win for the atheist)
B) those who did choose a faith would be much more likely to follow it correctly and be good examples of their chosen faith. (win for the religious)
All religions seem to need Indoctrination and social pressure to continue. It appears then that faith is an "in" club instead of a spiritual path. This does not speak well of a real deity. It does tell very clearly of man made gods though.
In this parenting model I feel that it would either eliminate theist if god only existed as a human force or eliminate atheist by showing only certain paths lead to truly spiritual people.

Indoctrination is something we all live through from cradle to grave, it is just that some of us are more fussy than others which bits of the indoctrination we accept and which we do not.

I happily and willingly accept all the indoctrination provided in scripture, but very little else, unless it fits into the same pattern as scripture. However I was always a rebel and refused the majority of the indoctrination that I was offered by my parents, in school, and in Sunday school.

Hey mad. Mad .
How are you mate. Good I hope . Keep up the series of your post you have been doing.
Have a good day man.
loveymore
Posts: 130
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2/14/2017 9:05:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I remember when I was too atheist, than I started to realize God can be trusted in everything.

He can turn lives of whomever he chooses into something meaningful.
loveymore
Posts: 130
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2/14/2017 9:32:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
But It's sad some people laugh at what do they not know.

Happy is the man who does not walk according to the advice of the wicked
And does not stand on the path of sinners And does not sit in the seat of scoffers.

Through whom we also have obtained access by faith into this undeserved kindness
in which we now stand; and let us rejoice, based on hope of the glory of God.
TheChristWithin
Posts: 977
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2/14/2017 10:19:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The mind is society's dumping ground. If they work enough on you, they will make you believe just about anything - and indeed, many people believe very absurd things.

The concept is simple - in numerology, equations are developed in order to be able to calculate and make predictions of particular outcomes. This ability to make predictions grants control; if one can predict an outcome, they can benefit from it.

It is precisely in the same way that indoctrination works upon the mind. It creates large masses of people who share a common collective mindset. These masses respond to certain stimulus under certain conditions which forms the basis of just about any form of control, including governance through political or religious means.

Whenever you can predict someone's behavior, you can control them. Entire operations can be (and are) undertaken based on this knowledge. Religion is particularly devastating because it has such a powerful hold over people - believing in the unknown. It exploits the ignorance of masses who have accepted a particular account to be true, because any one particular belief system is able to bring rise to calculated "incidents" when provoked properly. This is exactly how governments use power and we see it manifest in such "events" as terror attacks, refugee crises, foreign policy legislation and invasion etc. People are so indoctrinated into their own particular niche that they don't see how they are being played in the larger scale. This type of control has been going on for thousands of years, as it always will until humans learn to take ownership of their own destiny and stop exporting it into the unknown.

Any indoctrination, religious or otherwise, even if it seems like a harmless (and/or beneficial) way of living will always impose limitations on the self while giving power to the other. Those systems which contain the most "believers" are so far over the edge they have completely lost what it means to be "human" as they have exported this life into the hands of the unknown in "preparation" for the next. They do it willingly, without realizing what they are giving up.

One particular belief (as an example) is that this life is a "test". Imagine someone being convinced that their entire conduct is being evaluated, and in order to pass this evaluation you have to follow x, y, and z. That's such an obvious and deranged form of totalitarian control, and people believe it willingly (or unwillingly in some cases) out of fear. It's quite literally insanity. Then again, nobody said a majority of humans had to be sane - quite the contrary, if all belief systems were man-made and false, the natural outcome would be widespread insanity, because everything everyone believes in are falsities disguised as truth - much in the same way religion is bondage disguised as virtue.
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cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/15/2017 2:56:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 2:24:16 PM, PureX wrote:
You're asking parents to withhold what they consider to be the truth, from their children.

That's not going to happen.
I'm not saying to never tell them about religion. I am saying to wait until their minds can comprehend it. For example; we dont go straight into teaching our kindergardners about the quadradic formula or about the details of how babies are made. yet babies just days out of their mothers are taken to church. I'm trying to convey that children should be introduced to faiths when they are ready to understand. Then the other part of the idea is to let them have a choice and NOT punish the child for not following the parents ideas on religion.
Too many times a teen is punished in some way for not taking up the faith. If this is not considered wrong in a religiously free country then Then shame on the religious.
Again this speaks volumes of the "truth" of a faith if it takes indoctrination and social punishment to keep alive.
As well it seems to make less true christians and more "in the club" christians. Therefor making bad examples of christians (and other religious) and making more atheists.
cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/15/2017 2:57:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 4:23:39 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/14/2017 1:19:19 PM, cedertree wrote:
One of the things that turned me off to religion, especially Christianity, was that most of my peers, when I was young, claimed to be Christian but few really acted like the character that they claimed was a real life example of correct living. I didn't understand this so I reckoned that no God/Jesus really existed.
I've heard all of the arguments of the "no true Christians" and "the narrow path" however I have a different idea of what is happening. All religions seem to rely on the indoctrination of the young to perpetuate . Most people gain their faith from their parents and culture. They don't come by the faith through true contemplation when able to comprehend the ramifications of giving one's soul and life to a deity. We in this society do not let children decide on whether to drink alcohol or whether to carry a gun yet these things are trivial compared to where one may spend eternity and how one governs one's life until death. It is deemed perfectly okay for a child, who has little to no understanding of these concepts, to decide to take up the faith they are spoon feed.
My theory is that if children were not taught religion (yes you can teach morality without a specific deity) until they were old enough to understand the concepts and they were given a choice of what faith to follow with out social pressure then two things would happen.
A) there would be less religious. (win for the atheist)
B) those who did choose a faith would be much more likely to follow it correctly and be good examples of their chosen faith. (win for the religious)
All religions seem to need Indoctrination and social pressure to continue. It appears then that faith is an "in" club instead of a spiritual path. This does not speak well of a real deity. It does tell very clearly of man made gods though.
In this parenting model I feel that it would either eliminate theist if god only existed as a human force or eliminate atheist by showing only certain paths lead to truly spiritual people.

Indoctrination is something we all live through from cradle to grave, it is just that some of us are more fussy than others which bits of the indoctrination we accept and which we do not.

I happily and willingly accept all the indoctrination provided in scripture, but very little else, unless it fits into the same pattern as scripture. However I was always a rebel and refused the majority of the indoctrination that I was offered by my parents, in school, and in Sunday school.
just because it is something we live with doesn't make it right. We as humans are notorius for changing our lives for what we feel is better. For the most part it seems to have worked too.
cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/15/2017 2:59:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 9:05:16 PM, loveymore wrote:
I remember when I was too atheist, than I started to realize God can be trusted in everything.

He can turn lives of whomever he chooses into something meaningful.
were you raised with the choice or did you just have a crisis of faith?
cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/15/2017 3:01:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 9:32:13 PM, loveymore wrote:
But It's sad some people laugh at what do they not know.

Happy is the man who does not walk according to the advice of the wicked
And does not stand on the path of sinners And does not sit in the seat of scoffers.

Through whom we also have obtained access by faith into this undeserved kindness
in which we now stand; and let us rejoice, based on hope of the glory of God.
I'm sorry. What does this have to do with indoctrination and social pressure?
cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/15/2017 3:02:05 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 10:19:37 PM, TheChristWithin wrote:
The mind is society's dumping ground. If they work enough on you, they will make you believe just about anything - and indeed, many people believe very absurd things.

The concept is simple - in numerology, equations are developed in order to be able to calculate and make predictions of particular outcomes. This ability to make predictions grants control; if one can predict an outcome, they can benefit from it.

It is precisely in the same way that indoctrination works upon the mind. It creates large masses of people who share a common collective mindset. These masses respond to certain stimulus under certain conditions which forms the basis of just about any form of control, including governance through political or religious means.

Whenever you can predict someone's behavior, you can control them. Entire operations can be (and are) undertaken based on this knowledge. Religion is particularly devastating because it has such a powerful hold over people - believing in the unknown. It exploits the ignorance of masses who have accepted a particular account to be true, because any one particular belief system is able to bring rise to calculated "incidents" when provoked properly. This is exactly how governments use power and we see it manifest in such "events" as terror attacks, refugee crises, foreign policy legislation and invasion etc. People are so indoctrinated into their own particular niche that they don't see how they are being played in the larger scale. This type of control has been going on for thousands of years, as it always will until humans learn to take ownership of their own destiny and stop exporting it into the unknown.

Any indoctrination, religious or otherwise, even if it seems like a harmless (and/or beneficial) way of living will always impose limitations on the self while giving power to the other. Those systems which contain the most "believers" are so far over the edge they have completely lost what it means to be "human" as they have exported this life into the hands of the unknown in "preparation" for the next. They do it willingly, without realizing what they are giving up.

One particular belief (as an example) is that this life is a "test". Imagine someone being convinced that their entire conduct is being evaluated, and in order to pass this evaluation you have to follow x, y, and z. That's such an obvious and deranged form of totalitarian control, and people believe it willingly (or unwillingly in some cases) out of fear. It's quite literally insanity. Then again, nobody said a majority of humans had to be sane - quite the contrary, if all belief systems were man-made and false, the natural outcome would be widespread insanity, because everything everyone believes in are falsities disguised as truth - much in the same way religion is bondage disguised as virtue.
This is quite a lot to consider,
cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/15/2017 3:06:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 11:40:43 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
You are talking about a liberal dream that goes against our very nature.
true what religion would dare to let their children have the freedom to choose? What a terrible concept free will is. Disgusting is the thought of the dream of unfettered minds.
Willows
Posts: 11,692
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2/15/2017 7:59:23 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/14/2017 2:24:16 PM, PureX wrote:
You're asking parents to withhold what they consider to be the truth, from their children.

That's not going to happen.

It will happen.
And I certainly look forward to the day when child abuse by parents and authorities is legislated against.
Some parents need to be told that what they consider to be the truth is outright abuse and if it takes legislation to get it through their deluded heads, so be it.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 3,202
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2/15/2017 8:00:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 3:06:18 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 11:40:43 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
You are talking about a liberal dream that goes against our very nature.
true what religion would dare to let their children have the freedom to choose? What a terrible concept free will is. Disgusting is the thought of the dream of unfettered minds.

Nothing about raising your children religiously takes away their freedom of choice.

Free will isn't a thing but it's irrelevant here.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
Looncall
Posts: 707
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2/15/2017 8:15:40 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 8:00:48 AM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 2/15/2017 3:06:18 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 11:40:43 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
You are talking about a liberal dream that goes against our very nature.
true what religion would dare to let their children have the freedom to choose? What a terrible concept free will is. Disgusting is the thought of the dream of unfettered minds.

Nothing about raising your children religiously takes away their freedom of choice.

Free will isn't a thing but it's irrelevant here.

Instilling the morbid guilt that religion thrives on into the innocent minds of children can indeed take away their freedom and cause untold psychological harm as well.

Remember, it's all about clergy gaining power over people.
The metaphysicist has no laboratory.
SarcasticIndeed
Posts: 3,202
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2/15/2017 10:14:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 8:15:40 AM, Looncall wrote:
At 2/15/2017 8:00:48 AM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
At 2/15/2017 3:06:18 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 11:40:43 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
You are talking about a liberal dream that goes against our very nature.
true what religion would dare to let their children have the freedom to choose? What a terrible concept free will is. Disgusting is the thought of the dream of unfettered minds.

Nothing about raising your children religiously takes away their freedom of choice.

Free will isn't a thing but it's irrelevant here.

Instilling the morbid guilt that religion thrives on into the innocent minds of children can indeed take away their freedom and cause untold psychological harm as well.

There's a skillful and an unskillful way to raise your child. Guit-tripping them obviously falls into the later category and is a sign of some very questionable religious beliefs. Sadly, that is what Christianity has turned into, but you cannot generalize it to all religions

Remember, it's all about clergy gaining power over people.

Okay.
<SIGNATURE CENSORED> nac
cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/15/2017 1:34:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Many of you are forgetting some of the main points in my post
A) any idea that takes indoctrination and social pressure should not be considered true
B)Children SHOULD be taught philosophical and religious views but only when they are ready.
C)The child SHOULd be given a choice as that will lead to better sincerity.
D)Truth will win out if the choice is there.
I raise my son and I tell him (when he asks) how I feel about current faiths and philosophies. However, I always end with "don't just take my word for it. Look for yourself" Were as the religious parent will dole out their faith as truth with out question whether the child asks for it or not. Yes I know this to be true most of the time. I was one of those kids and have seen many others in the same situation in my 47 years of life.
My challenge is this, give the child a choice and see what happens. If a faith is undeniably true then they too will come to that consensus. If it's not then the faith was never true to begin with.
I think the religious know this and so will fight tooth and nail to keep indoctrination and social pressure as tools to keep their faith alive.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,687
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2/15/2017 1:51:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 1:34:03 PM, cedertree wrote:
Many of you are forgetting some of the main points in my post
A) any idea that takes indoctrination and social pressure should not be considered true
B)Children SHOULD be taught philosophical and religious views but only when they are ready.
C)The child SHOULd be given a choice as that will lead to better sincerity.
D)Truth will win out if the choice is there.
I raise my son and I tell him (when he asks) how I feel about current faiths and philosophies. However, I always end with "don't just take my word for it. Look for yourself" Were as the religious parent will dole out their faith as truth with out question whether the child asks for it or not. Yes I know this to be true most of the time. I was one of those kids and have seen many others in the same situation in my 47 years of life.
My challenge is this, give the child a choice and see what happens. If a faith is undeniably true then they too will come to that consensus. If it's not then the faith was never true to begin with.
I think the religious know this and so will fight tooth and nail to keep indoctrination and social pressure as tools to keep their faith alive.

Every child brought up by Jehovah's Witnesses has a choice, just as we all do.

Jehovah gives us all a choice and no-one has the right to take that option to choose away from us.

He gives us a choice because he only wants willing servants, willing worshippers, who have taken the trouble to learn about him and then decide to love him and obey him, or not as their choice may go.

The fact that Jehovah's Hotness children are given the choice is proven by the fact that all too many of them fall away, my own 3 amongst them to my cost.

Some eventually come back, some do not, but no-one can make the choice for them.

True faith, real scriptural faith, is very personal, in that you have to make the effort to build it up yourself by study and research.

You cannot successfully simply borrow a faith from your parents or society around you, as so many do. That sort of faith, like the tower built on sand of Jesus illustration, gets washed away in a storm of opposition.

If your faith is built on a solid foundation of facts you have tested and proven for yourself, by your own choice, that faith will withstand anything Satan throws at it.

However, even a real faith like that needs maintenance, constant checking to ensure that it is solidly built from reliable, good quality "materials". Neglect it and it will crumble.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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2/15/2017 1:52:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 2:56:02 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 2:24:16 PM, PureX wrote:
You're asking parents to withhold what they consider to be the truth, from their children.

That's not going to happen.
I'm not saying to never tell them about religion. I am saying to wait until their minds can comprehend it. Parents believe they can comprehend "right" and "wrong" from an early age, and that it is their obligation to teach them. To atheist parents 'right" means there is no god. While to religious parents "right" means there is. And even if they don't explicitly says so, they will inevitably imply it by their speech and actions, and the children will pick it up, anyway.

I think what you're suggesting is an ideal that's imply impossible to actualize among real humans.

Too many times a teen is punished in some way for not taking up the faith. If this is not considered wrong in a religiously free country then shame on the religious.

They are punished for not learning their quadratic equations, too. But you don't seem to find this to be an affront to their freedom.

Again this speaks volumes of the "truth" of a faith if it takes indoctrination and social punishment to keep alive.

All human thought and behavioral modification requires "indoctrination" and social punishment to keep alive. It's a necessity, however, if we are to live together as a cooperative species.

As well it seems to make less true christians and more "in the club" christians. Therefor making bad examples of christians (and other religious) and making more atheists.

Or perhaps you are just biased against religious indoctrination, as opposed to the many other ways in which we indoctrinate our children.
MadCornishBiker
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2/15/2017 1:56:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 3:06:18 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 11:40:43 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
You are talking about a liberal dream that goes against our very nature.
true what religion would dare to let their children have the freedom to choose? What a terrible concept free will is. Disgusting is the thought of the dream of unfettered minds.

Jehovah's Witnesses do, they cannot stop it, it simply isn't allowed.

The proof of that is in the number of JW children who do fall away, though admittedly some eventually come back years, or even decades later. But the were raised to choose, in the hope they would choose right, and choose they did.

Their children are the same as their students, the choice is always, and will always remain, theirs. They don't have to accept the beliefs, they can always drop out if they choose. Which is why so many do.

At least so far more come in than drop out, just.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
bulproof
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2/15/2017 2:01:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 1:56:14 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 2/15/2017 3:06:18 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 11:40:43 PM, SarcasticIndeed wrote:
You are talking about a liberal dream that goes against our very nature.
true what religion would dare to let their children have the freedom to choose? What a terrible concept free will is. Disgusting is the thought of the dream of unfettered minds.

Jehovah's Witnesses do, they cannot stop it, it simply isn't allowed.

The proof of that is in the number of JW children who do fall away, though admittedly some eventually come back years, or even decades later. But the were raised to choose, in the hope they would choose right, and choose they did.

Their children are the same as their students, the choice is always, and will always remain, theirs. They don't have to accept the beliefs, they can always drop out if they choose. Which is why so many do.

At least so far more come in than drop out, just.
The madman is so proud of his inability to learn that he wears it as his most prized possession and the reason his idiot god loves him so much.
His god loves idiots because they are his KIND.
loveymore
Posts: 130
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2/15/2017 10:42:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 2:59:20 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 9:05:16 PM, loveymore wrote:
I remember when I was too atheist, than I started to realize God can be trusted in everything.

He can turn lives of whomever he chooses into something meaningful.
were you raised with the choice or did you just have a crisis of faith?

I was raised with a choice.

Talking about my pre, or early school world view.
Many things were new and I felt a need to find out, what it is about. I shared lots of views with others.

Seen Bible more as a practical law, a moral code. I was not looking for more clues. Most of that was somehow hidden, like if it was not even there.

I've seen benefits of faith, but it was gradual thing to realize, real benefits of it.

Overall it was a great change, which I think would could not be possible,
if Bible was not written under God's inspiration.
cedertree
Posts: 238
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2/16/2017 1:55:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 1:52:25 PM, PureX wrote:
At 2/15/2017 2:56:02 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 2:24:16 PM, PureX wrote:
You're asking parents to withhold what they consider to be the truth, from their children.

That's not going to happen.
I'm not saying to never tell them about religion. I am saying to wait until their minds can comprehend it. Parents believe they can comprehend "right" and "wrong" from an early age, and that it is their obligation to teach them. To atheist parents 'right" means there is no god. While to religious parents "right" means there is. And even if they don't explicitly says so, they will inevitably imply it by their speech and actions, and the children will pick it up, anyway.

I think what you're suggesting is an ideal that's imply impossible to actualize among real humans.

Too many times a teen is punished in some way for not taking up the faith. If this is not considered wrong in a religiously free country then shame on the religious.

They are punished for not learning their quadratic equations, too. But you don't seem to find this to be an affront to their freedom.

Again this speaks volumes of the "truth" of a faith if it takes indoctrination and social punishment to keep alive.

All human thought and behavioral modification requires "indoctrination" and social punishment to keep alive. It's a necessity, however, if we are to live together as a cooperative species.

As well it seems to make less true christians and more "in the club" christians. Therefor making bad examples of christians (and other religious) and making more atheists.

Or perhaps you are just biased against religious indoctrination, as opposed to the many other ways in which we indoctrinate our children.
it's always good to be challenged on one's ideas and views. This is something that I feel the atheist is ready for. Indeed I did look at my views. this is what I found.
I looked up the punishments for not learning the quadratic formula and found nothing. my guess is that maybe you would have to go back to a general math class and you would not get that scholorship.
On the other hand I looked up what happens when a child does not take up with the parents view of religion. As you might guess there were 100s if not 1000s of entries but this one took my attention most.
https://www.reddit.com...
Now i want you too look at these not just gloss over and scoff but look at these stories and tell me you can compare the devastation of failing the algebra class ( a proven tool that works.) and the devastation that happens when a teen decides that the religion he/she was raised in is not for him/her (even though no proof exists for which religion is the correct one).
While it is true that i am particularly biased against religion I fail to see the harm in teaching children true life skills over unproven faith and often detrimental scriptures when they are too young to apply critical thinking.
Again if the child is given the opportunity to investigate and choose for themselves WITHOUT the punishment for choosing different than their community, then all good says I. As you can see this is not always the case. As I said this is not just my biased. It does happen. It should not.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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2/16/2017 2:22:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/15/2017 10:42:24 PM, loveymore wrote:
Seen Bible more as a practical law, a moral code.
Where the god commits genocide and infanticide and claims that it is moral.
Are you insane?
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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2/16/2017 4:04:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2017 1:55:27 PM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/15/2017 1:52:25 PM, PureX wrote:
At 2/15/2017 2:56:02 AM, cedertree wrote:
At 2/14/2017 2:24:16 PM, PureX wrote:
You're asking parents to withhold what they consider to be the truth, from their children.

That's not going to happen.
I'm not saying to never tell them about religion. I am saying to wait until their minds can comprehend it. Parents believe they can comprehend "right" and "wrong" from an early age, and that it is their obligation to teach them. To atheist parents 'right" means there is no god. While to religious parents "right" means there is. And even if they don't explicitly says so, they will inevitably imply it by their speech and actions, and the children will pick it up, anyway.

I think what you're suggesting is an ideal that's imply impossible to actualize among real humans.

Too many times a teen is punished in some way for not taking up the faith. If this is not considered wrong in a religiously free country then shame on the religious.

They are punished for not learning their quadratic equations, too. But you don't seem to find this to be an affront to their freedom.

Again this speaks volumes of the "truth" of a faith if it takes indoctrination and social punishment to keep alive.

All human thought and behavioral modification requires "indoctrination" and social punishment to keep alive. It's a necessity, however, if we are to live together as a cooperative species.

As well it seems to make less true christians and more "in the club" christians. Therefor making bad examples of christians (and other religious) and making more atheists.

Or perhaps you are just biased against religious indoctrination, as opposed to the many other ways in which we indoctrinate our children.
it's always good to be challenged on one's ideas and views. This is something that I feel the atheist is ready for. Indeed I did look at my views. this is what I found.
I looked up the punishments for not learning the quadratic formula and found nothing. my guess is that maybe you would have to go back to a general math class and you would not get that scholorship.

Well, clearly you were not looking very hard. First of all, my comment was not meant to be taken specifically about 'quadratic equations'. I simply used that term because you did. It was about mathematics in general. And the punishment is both severe and systemic for those children who do not learn what they are required to learn, by society, regarding mathematics. And the punishment will continue on in life as they will have been marked as failures by an educational system that insists on everyone accepting mathematics as an ideology, and learning how to apply it in their lives.

On the other hand I looked up what happens when a child does not take up with the parents view of religion. As you might guess there were 100s if not 1000s of entries but this one took my attention most.

There are 340 million people living in the United States. We can find multiple examples within a group this large, of almost any form of child abuse based on almost any reasoning that one could imagine. So your minuscule group of victims don't amount to significant evidence that religious parents commonly abuse their children for not accepting the parent's religious ideologies. And keep in mind that punishments for general disobedience can't be included as evidence, as every parent has to punish their children for general disobedience.

So on the math side we have severe systematic and universal punishments and humiliation for any child refusing to accept and regurgitate the "required dictums" of mathematics as determined by the state. While on the religious side we have a very small number of anecdotal examples of severe punishment and humiliation of children who do not accept the ideological dictates of their parents religion or church.

Now i want you too look at these not just gloss over and scoff but look at these stories and tell me you can compare the devastation of failing the algebra class ( a proven tool that works.) and the devastation that happens when a teen decides that the religion he/she was raised in is not for him/her (even though no proof exists for which religion is the correct one).

The devastation of failing a math class, and having to repeat it in summer school is signifiant to those children who have experienced it. But the devastation of being "held back" and having to repeat a grade is far worse. And it often leads to older children quitting school all together. And even if they don't quit, if they still refuse to accept and regurgitate the required mathematical dictums, they will be denied HS certification, anyway. And will suffer the quite severe consequences of this for the rest of their lives.

While the teenager that rejects his parent's religion, whatever the immediate consequence, will soon become an adult and be free both of the "stigma" and the consequences of having done so (within general society).

So I have to say that the 'punishment' for rejecting mathematical indoctrination is far more systemic, universal, long term, and debilitating than the punishment for rejecting one's parental religion.

While it is true that i am particularly biased against religion I fail to see the harm in teaching children true life skills over unproven faith and often detrimental scriptures when they are too young to apply critical thinking.

It is your bias that assumes that mathematics is a "true life skill" while religious belief and practice is not. And I have to say, that's a 'whopper' of a bias. Because clearly a strong case can be made to assert that religions offer people of all ages "true life skills". And if your bias is blinding you to that fact, it's a very pronounced bias.

Again if the child is given the opportunity to investigate and choose for themselves WITHOUT the punishment for choosing different than their community, then all good says I.

The child IS given exactly that opportunity the moment he/she becomes an adult in our society. Not so, however, for the child that failed to accept and regurgitate mathematical beliefs and practices.

As you can see this is not always the case. As I said this is not just my bias. It does happen. It should not.

Children suffer all kinds of abuse that they should not have to suffer. Ideological indoctrination, however, is quite rare. Especially compared to other forms of abuse like violent physical, verbal, sexual, and psychological abuse.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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2/16/2017 4:18:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/16/2017 4:04:18 PM, PureX wrote:

Children suffer all kinds of abuse that they should not have to suffer. Ideological indoctrination, however, is quite rare. Especially compared to other forms of abuse like violent physical, verbal, sexual, and psychological abuse.
You fell out of the stupid tree and hit every branch on the way down.

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