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How to deal with Preterism

Harikrish
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3/12/2017 7:12:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Preterist PGA. My address to him.

My views are based on the literal interpretation of the scriptures, textual criticism, archeological discovery and historical context.

Your Preterism views are a minority view based on semantic and word association.
1. The David kingdom was a physical kingdom.
Your interpretation the future Davidic Kindgom will be of a spiritual kind.
2.The covenant was made with the People of Israel and Judah. Israel is a physical country, the Jews are a physical people.
Your interpretations the new Israel is a spiritual people.
3. Jesus's return will be a physical return. He will come in the clouds, trumpets will be heard and the dead resurrected from their graves.
Your interpretation. Jesus's return was spiritual, the people's resurrection will be spiritual.
4. 70 AD was the war between Jews and Romans. Not between forces of good and evil. The Jews lost. The Romans destroyed the temple and punished the Jews.
Your interpretation Jesus said the temple would be destroyed. But Jesus also said his body was the temple. His body temple was desecrated which brought about the abomination of desolation. But not on the Romans who desecrated both temples. Jesus and God's temple and replaced the temple with the Roman Church.

In short substituting the physical with the spiritual leaves it outside the realm of science, history, archeology and even textual criticism and leaves it to the imagination. We know more about the physical world and have experts dedicated to growing our knowledge. But very little is known about the spiritual world that Jesus spoke about. It is an utopian fantasy. There are no experts in that field and people like you and other Christians are hard pressed to understand the real world you live in and certainly not experts on the spiritual realm.

Show how your minority view has been proven true?

Prophesies talk about the re-glorification of the Davidic kingdom. There is the Kingdom of God (Heaven) and a Kingdom of David (Earth). But the Kindgon of David remains a relic of the past.jesus appears to be sitting on the right hand of God. Has God surrender his kingdom to David? David has not been resurrected yet. Lol!

The Jews have survived the Roman and other persecutions. They number around 14 million today out of which 6 million live in Israel. They still follow Judaism and the temple and priests are now replaced by Rabbis and synagogues. They are even considering rebuilding the destroyed temple.it is why God put the Jews first above the Gentiles. Such determination!!

But the only covenant made was with Israel. Every scripture points to the Jews first placed ahead of the Gentiles.

The scriptures make his return a physical event. Think how crowded it will get sharing the space with the resurrected dead, mostly Jews.

Yes the Mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant. But the ones that remain are covenants with the people of Israel.
Remember Jesus said he was only sent to save the lost sheep of Israel. Jews before Gentiles.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Testament. He preached mainly around Galilee.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

What was a Messiah expected to fulfil ?

1. Jesus did not fulfil the messianic prophecies.
2. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

Jesus did not fulfil the Messianic Prophecies:

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world " on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Why Jews don't believe in Jesus? If any one could spot a rotten Jew it had to be another Jew. But the whole Jewish people rejecting Jesus and shouting out Crucify Him! Crucify Him! They were there, they knew their prophesies, they knew Jesus. 2000 years later they still maintain Jesus was not a messiah. Any wonder God picked the Jews to be first and ahead of the Gentiles. They are an uncompromising bunch of covenant contract holders. Lol.

There was a gap over 400 years between the last prophet Malachi and Jesus. Was it because the Jews repented and there was no need for prophets?
"Answer: The 400 years of silence refers to the time between the Old Testament and New Testaments, during which God did not speak to the Jewish people. The 400 years of silence began with the warning that closed the Old Testament: "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse" (Malachi 4:5-6) and ended with the coming of John the Baptist, the Messiah"s forerunner. "

But John the Baptist was not Elijah. John was even asked if he was Elijah and John said No!
John 1:21 They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."

That alone should have ended Jesus's deluded belief that he was the messiah. There was no Elijah, the Elijah that was to come before the promised one never showed up.

From Genesis to Malachi, there are over 300 specific prophecies detailing the coming of this Anointed One. These prophesies were repeated over a period of 4000 years. Should these numbered prophesies be evidence that established Jesus was indeed the Anointed One? It actually proves they were all guesses and not prophesies. In fact Jesus himself was not sure he was the Anointed One. He asked his disciples not to tell anyone.

Matthew 16:20 - Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

That is a contradiction of scriptures. 300 prophesies spread over 4000 years from Genesis to Malachi detailing the coming of this Anointed One and when the Messiah finally arrives he tells his disciples to keep hush about it. Was Jesus afraid to admit he was the Anointed One? Was he unprepared to accept his role? That he was crucified proves the latter.

Now Daniel supposedly gave the exact date of the Messiah's arrival and death. Much has been made about the accuracy of his prediction. So why was Jesus referring to Daniels prophecy to validate his messianic presence? He had arrived and could well stand behind his own claims of being the Anointed One. Why was he asking the people to believe Malachi and Daniel so they could accept him as their Messiah? That is further proof Jesus believed the people found the prophets were more trustworthy than him and was struggling to use them to validate his claims. He failed, they saw through his delusional scheming and crucified him.
Harikrish
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3/12/2017 7:39:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from post# 1

Preterist PGA addressed by Harikrish.

We also see he was irrationally evasive and told his disciples not to tell anyone. He then wanted the people to accept John as Elijah which would then indirectly imply he was the promised One. But John denied he was Elijah and even began to doubt Jesus. And when he was asked directly at the trial if he was the Messiah.
John 18:33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Jesus claimed he was an alien from some other world which again contradicts all the prophesies. Jesus was sent to save the Jews and reestablish the Davidic Kingdom. At the trial he was claiming his kingdom was already there and was not of this world. But it turns out that was not the kingdom he established. That was the existing kingdom of God the father where he was going to, to do house cleaning.

John 14:2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

Not only did Jesus cast doubts he was the Anointed One. His failure to fulfill the Messianic prophesies was why he was crucified.

The prophesies also predicted Jesus would fail. Daniel said the Messiah would be cut off. Psalms 22 said the messiah would be brutally put to death and would feel betrayed by God. Jesus confirmed he was betrayed by God.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Yes, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD to brutally put down a Jewish rebellion.

Yes, Daniel was written for a Babylonian audience. Daniel was exiled to Babylon and never lived in Israel,or Judah.

Sacrifices could not be made without the temple. Other aspects of Judaism continued without the temple. Rabbis replaced priests and synagogues replaced the temple. Repentance and prayer (a broken and contrite heart ) was the new sacrifice and no longer animals sacrifice.

It was Romans that judged the nation of Israel. They were the rulers since 64BC before Jesus was born. God had no authority over the Romans. The Romans worshipped Caesar and their pagan God's. The Romans crucified Jesus, then to put down a Jewish rebellion destroyed their temple and as retribution punished the Jews. Their actions were not dependent on Biblical prophesies. The fact they went on to replace the temple
with the Roman Catholic Church proves God and Jesus were caught without a paddle.

God chose a bad time to send Jesus. The Jews were under Roman rule. Jesus proved powerless to deal with the Roman might. He let himself be mocked, beaten, ridiculed and crucified by the Romans. God and Jesus underestimated the might of the Romans.

The temple was destroyed before. Temples are always the target to humiliate and destroy the will of the the people by their enemies. Crucifying messiahs are rare. When the Jews saw Jesus being beaten and ridiculed, they could not accept him as their messiah. That was too much shame for them to bear. They were promised a deliverer and not some helpless retard.

John not being Elijah the Elijah that was to come was not as powerful as Elijah. He himself was jailed and beheaded. Elijah commanded an army of angels. John was no Elijah.

The Jews and Romans maintained their good relationship for decades after Jesus was crucified by the Romans. The abomination of desolation did not happen as Jesus predicted upon his death and rejection. His body temple was mocked, beaten and desecrated by the Romans. Jesus's death was insignificant.

The Jewish people did not kill their prophets. Jesus was crucified by the Romans, john was beheaded by Herod over a personal matter.

But John the Baptist was not Elijah. John was even asked if he was Elijah and John said No!

The will of the father was Jesus should fail and be put to death.

On the last day Jesus cried out.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

John 1:21 They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."

Jesus tried this line before but it didn't work because no one was impressed by his works.

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.

know if he was Elijah? John emphatically denied he was Elijah. Move on!!

John 1:21 They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."

You are quoting Jesus who was proven to be a blasphemous liar and lunatic. John even began to doubt Jesus was the promised one after denying he was Elijah.
Matthew 11:3 to ask him, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

Jesus lied again when he accused the people for killing John when everyone knew it was Herod who beheaded John over his wife's complaints.

Matthew 17:12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

Both John and Jesus were equally put to death.
First John denied he was Elijah. He also failed to turn the people towards Jesus. The Jews rejected Jesus and asked that he be crucified.

John was not Elijah in spirit or power.

Miracles in the Career of Elijah:

1) Causing the rain the cease for 3 1/2 years (1Ki 17:1)
2) Being fed by the ravens (1Ki 17:4)
3) Miracle of the barrel of meal and cruse of oil (1Ki 17:14)
4) Resurrection of the widow's son (1Ki 17:22)
5) Calling of fire from heaven on the altar (1Ki 18:38)
6) Causing it to rain (1Ki 18:45)
7) Prophecy that Ahab's sons would all be destroyed (1Ki 21:22)
8) Prophecy that Jezebel would be eaten by dogs (1Ki 21:23)
9) Prophecy that Ahaziah would die of his illness (2Ki 1:4)
10) Calling fire from heaven upon the first 50 soldiers (2Ki 1:10)
11) Calling fire from heaven upon the second 50 soldiers (2Ki 1:12)
12) Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:8)
13) Prophecy that Elisha should have a double portion of his spirit (2Ki 2:10)
14) Being caught up to heaven in a whirlwind (2Ki 2:11)

That alone should have ended Jesus's deluded belief that he was the messiah. There was no Elijah, the Elijah that was to come before the promised one never showed up.

jesus was chosen for the role, he was incoherent and clueless.

No one is questioning Daniel. He did not prophecy 500 years into the future anymore than Jesus could predict when those dreadful days would happen. There was no world catastrophe. Not even after Jesus was crucified or after the temple was destroyed or after the Jews were scattered. The Jews have regrouped. We might see a new temple and animal sacrifice. Human sacrifice after Jesus left a bitter taste.

When Jesus was asked directly at the trial if he was the Messiah.
John 18:33 Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

So why are Christians worshipping an alien (Jesus)
Harikrish
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3/12/2017 8:03:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from post #2
http://www.debate.org...

Preterist PGA addressed by Harikrish.

He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, -

Never happened. David's kingdom was an earthly kingdom.

The promise that David"s "house," "kingdom," and "throne" will be established forever is significant because it shows that the Messiah will come from the lineage of David and that He will establish a kingdom from which He will reign. The covenant is summarized by the words "house," promising a dynasty in the lineage of David; "kingdom," referring to a people who are governed by a king; "throne," emphasizing the authority of the king"s rule; and "forever," emphasizing the eternal and unconditional nature of this promise to David and Israel.

Other references to the Davidic Covenant are found in Jeremiah 23:5; 30:9; Isaiah 9:7; 11:1; Luke 1:32, 69; Acts 13:34; and Revelation 3:7."

Note the promise to David and the people of Israel an everlasting kingdom to be established by Jesus. Jesus has not established a kingdom. He is now in his fathers basement living as a house cleaner.

Read your scriptures. Jesus is living in his fathers basement. His day job preparing rooms for guests.

John 14:2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

The prophesies also predicted Jesus would fail. Daniel said the Messiah would be cut off. Psalms 22 said the messiah would be brutally put to death and would feel betrayed by God. Jesus confirmed he was betrayed by God.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Advents have occurred.

Jesus came into the world. First coming.
Jesus rose on the third day. Second coming.
Preterists say he returned. Third coming.
Armageddon calling Jesus. Fourth coming.

Why hasn't he gone blind coming that often?

Jesus was put to death for his blasphemous lies and lunacy. He was warned on two occasions but managed to slip away to safety. His death wish was answered by the Romans.

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

God chose the time to send Jesus. Daniel even predicted the exact date 500 years before the birth of Jesus. But God was not prepared fir the might of the Romans even though the people were ready to accept Jesus and shouted out Hosanna in celebration of their messiah.
Matthew 21:9 The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the highest heaven!"

But when they saw Jesus allow the Romans to mock, beat , ridicule and desecrate his body temple. The shame of seeing their messiah so badly a used was too much for them. This could not be the messiah that was expected to deliver them from their enemies. God gave them a reason to doubt and reject Jesus. It was even prophesied Jesus would fail and be cut off. Jesus true to prophecy failed and was crucified.
Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross.

John was Elijah. Jesus lied John was killed by the people. John was killed by Herod over a personal matter. John began to doubt Jesus.

The terrible day did not come because Jesus was rejected. Jesus was crucified by the Romans. The Jews and Romans continued to co-exist peacefully after Jesus. His death was insignificant.

When the Jews rebelled against the Romans, God stood idly by and watched his temple and people destroyed by the Romans.

The people never killed their prophets. They ignored them.

John was killed by Herod and not the Jewish people. The Romans crucified Jesus. The Jews had no authority to put anyone to death. Jesus falsely accused the people for killing their prophets. The Jews were not prophet killers. The priest were give authority by God to put to death false prophets. The people were not appointed as judges of prophets.

Deuteronomy 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death."

The will of the father was that Jesus should fail and be put to death. Jesus failed as was put to death.

Jesus did not fulfill the role of a Messiah. He was running around making wine from water and playing Dr. Oz casting out demons without his stethoscope.

The enemy that destroyed the temple, slaughtered the people and crucified Jesus were not the poor and sick. It was the Romans. John saw Jesus was not dealing with the real issues which was to save the people from their enemy and began to doubt Jesus.

That alone should have ended Jesus's deluded belief that he was the messiah. There was no Elijah, the Elijah that was to come before the promised one never showed up.

From Genesis to Malachi, there are over 300 specific prophecies detailing the coming of this Anointed One. These prophesies were repeated over a period of 4000 years. Should these numbered prophesies be evidence that established Jesus was indeed the Anointed One? It actually proves they were all guesses and not prophesies. In fact Jesus himself was not sure he was the Anointed One. He asked his disciples not to tell anyone.

Matthew 16:20 - Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Jesus should have known he had very little time to get the word out to the people. His ministry lasted only 1-3 years. Yet he chose to keep his identity a secret. Duh!

Jesus did not believe he was the anointed one in the beginning. That thought occurred towards the end of his ministry when it was too late.

The destruction of the temple had nothing to do with Daniel or Moses and everything to do with the Jewish rebellion against the Romans. The Romans destroyed the temple to punish the Jews for their rebellion. The Jews revolted against the mighty Romans and was at war with the Romans. They were not revolting against God or at war with God. So why would he seek to punish them. Daniels prophesied didn't apply to this generation.

The First Jewish"Roman War (66"73 CE), sometimes called the Great Revolt was the first of three major rebellions by the Jews of Judea Province (Iudaea) against the Roman Empire. The second was the Kitos War in 115"117, which took place mainly in the diaspora, and the third was Bar Kokhba's revolt of 132"136 CE. It was a culmination of the three wars that destroyed the nation of Israel. These details were not in Daniel.

Jesus was crucified by the Romans. His death was insignificant. The Jews continued to live with the Romans peacefully for decades after Jesus's crucifixion. Daniel did not prophecy the Jews rebelling against the Romans or their resulting consequences for going against the mighty Romans. Daniel spoke about their disobedience to God. There is no evidence of Jews desecrating their temple. But there is evidence of Romans desecrating the temple.

Daniel blames both the desecration of the temple and the death of the messiah on the Jews. But he was wrong. The Romans desecrated both the temple and crucified Jesus after desecrating his body temple by mocking, beating and piercing it. The abomination of desolation should have befallen on the Romans not the innocent Jews. Daniel fails again.

That was dream that the king iof Babylon had. It concerned his kingdom and had nothing to do with the Jews. Nebuchadnezzar dreams of a statue made of four different materials, identified as four kingdoms:
Harikrish
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3/12/2017 8:19:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from post#3
http://www.debate.org...

Preterist PGA addressed by Harikrish.

What you are ignoring is according to Daniel the destruction of the fourth kingdom would signal the end of times which is another failed prophecy of Daniel. The Roman Empire was destroyed in 476CE. But many more Empires followed the end of the Roman Empire. (Turkish Empire, Mongol Empire, British Empire, etc, etc.) no end times in sight, no everlasting kingdom of heaven. Daniel fails.

Jesus believed Daniel abomination of desolation. But Jesus could not tell when these things would happen or the end of the world. So he was clueless and also proven wrong. The end times never happened. There was no abomination of desolation. The Romans crucified Jesus and ruled the Jews peacefully for decades. The destruction of the temple was to punish the Jews for rebelling against the Romans and not their disobedience to their Jewish God. The Romans were pagans and could care less about Jesus or his God.

The end never came because the Romans messed his prophecy.
Jesus was a failure of the cross. He was cut off by the Romans. The Romans destroyed the temple to put down a Jewish rebellion which was not an abomination of desolation. It took three wars before the nation of Israel was destroyed. All this had nothing to do with the Jews being disobedient to God. The Jews were at war with might Rome that brought about their demise.

Daniel was speaking to the generation of Jews living in exile in Babylon 500 years before the events happened. The Jesus generation were many generations removed from that generation and were living under Roman rule. God was punishing the wrong generation blaming them for the sins of the Romans. Applying prophesies from a different time 500 years later on a different generation is absurd.

What Jesus said was either fulfilled during the generation he was addressing or it was a false prophecy. That is no different than Daniels prophesies. It cannot be applied 500 years later to a totally different generation.

No one is disputing what Daniel said. He certainly knew more than Jesus. He would have made a better Messiah.

I said Daniel never lived in Israel or Judah. At the age of 15 he was carried off to Babylon where he lived the rest of life.

Try to put things in perspective. Their temple which was a building was destroyed. They still had their faith, their God and the written Torah. The Rabbis replaced the priests and the synagogue replaced the temple. Judaism is still practiced today. Religion doesn't die because a temple or church is destroyed.

Yes they could because the Jews were written off by their prophets over 300 times in prophesies but they always rebounded. They survived 70 AD too by adapting. The only covenants that still remain are those made between God and the people of Israel. Even Jesus only preached to the Jews. His disciples were all Jews, his audience were all Jews. The Jews even welcomed him as their Messiah. But when they saw Jesus allow the Romans to mock, beat and ridicule him. They no longer believed he was their messiah sent to save them from their enemies. They began to suspect he was a helpless liar and a lunatic. Jesus let them down.

John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the king of Israel!"

Jesus did not establish the throne of David. He was crucified before he could finish his mission. God underestimated the might of the Romans who crucified Jesus. We know Jesus said he was going to live in his fathers house (basement) and take up house cleaning.

John 14:2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

The Mosaic Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestor when I took them by theur hand to lead them out of Egypt because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]" declares the Lord.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, "Know the Lord,"
because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord.
"For I will forgive their wickednes and will remember their sins no more."

That is the promise God made to Jeremiah and even though Jesus failed because of his short ministry. The Jews are still the only people God made a new covenant with.

How could the Romans judge the Jews on behalf of God when it was the Romans that crucified God's son Jesus, it was the Romans that desecrated God's Temple and destroyed it. The Jews rebelled against the Romans to protect the temple believing God would be on their side. But God stood idly by as the Romans crucified his son Jesus, destroyed his temple. Read your scriptures.

But there were many more kingdoms after the end of the Roman Empire. Daniel only went as far as 4 kingdoms. That is why prophesies no longer apply. God never expected the world would continue 2000 years after Jesus crucifixion. He forgot there were other Gods besides the God of the Bible that sustained the rest of the world which were in the majority. The Jews have always been a minority tribal group compared to the rest of the world.

Quoting Daniel and other prophesies does not change the fact Jesus did not fulfil them. Claiming they pointed to him does not make it a fact.
The scriptures are very clear what the messiah would deliver.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world " on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zecha

Only the temple was destroyed by the Romans to punish the Jews for rebelling. Daniel said the temple would be destroyed because it would be desecrated and God would punish the Jews for desecrating it. It turns out it was the Romans who were desecrating the temple. Daniel was wrong.

No, the Jews accepted Jesus as their messiah and shouted Hosanna.

Matthew 21:9 The crowds that went ahead of him and those that followed shouted, "Hosanna to the Son of David!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Hosanna in the ...

But when they saw Jesus allow the Romans to mock, beat and desecrate his body temple. They no longer believed Jesus was the messiah sent to save them. jesus couldn't even save himself. Jesus let the Jews down.

The prophesies in Psalms 22, Daniel and Isaiah all prophesied Jesus would fail, he would be rejected and he would be put to death. Prophesies are from God given to prophets. Jesus failed, he was rejected and he was crucified. Just as God to,d his prophets.
Harikrish
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3/12/2017 9:36:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from Post#4

Preterist PGA addressed by Harikrish.

I am using historical context, textual criticism, archeological discoveries and biblical scholarship. You are trapped in your Preterists interpretation.

works were not impressed. Read below.

John 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

He was making blasphemous claims and trying to fool the people with trivial magic like making wine from water. That was not enough to prove he was God.
At his trial he refused to say he was the messiah (king of the Jews) or God. He said his kingdom was not of this world. The Romans nailed him to a wooden cross and sent him packing to his alien kingdom. Aliens had no business meddling in human affairs.

The problem is your poor comprehension. Israel is still embroiled in conflict when they should be enjoying a covenant of peace. The temple God's sanctuary lies in ruins and their religion claimed by Gentiles.

Only 6 million Jews live in Israel out of the 14 million Jews in the world. There is still dispute about their land and boundaries. Jews still cannot call it their homeland when they are threatened by their neighbours. The world still doesn't accept the Lord has made his sanctuary in their midst forever :" Then the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."

Prophesies are not timeless. They are spoken to a generation who will witness its fulfillment or the prophet is a false prophet. Prophecy is foretelling of events to follow and not some timeless proclamation.

The Jews have suffered 1,500 years of persecution and expulsion. Antisemiticism is still rampant. Paradoxically all the scriptures point to Israel first before the Gentiles. jesus said he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Why don't you Christians get it?

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

1. The Jews have a priority over Gentiles as the chosen people of God
2. The Jews have a priority over Gentiles as the guardians of God's special revelation, the Old Testament Scriptures
3. The Jews have a priority over the Gentiles in that the Messiah himself, Jesus Christ, came first as a Jew to the Jews
4. The Jews have a priority over the Gentiles in that salvation is from the Jews
5. The Jews have a priority over the Gentiles in that Paul evangelized Jews first when he brought the gospel to a new place
6. The Jews have a priority over the Gentiles in final judgment and final blessing.

So when Paul says in Romans 1:16, "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek," we should call to mind these six ways that the Jews have a priority over the Gentiles.

They are the historic chosen people of God.

They are the guardians of God's special revelation, the Old Testament Scriptures.

The Messiah and Savior, Jesus, comes to the world as a Jew to Jews.

Salvation is from the Jews, since everyone who is saved is saved by being connected to the covenant with Abraham by faith.

The Jews are to be evangelized first when the gospel penetrates a new region.

The Jews will enter first into final judgment and final blessing.

The prophesies all predicted Jesus would fail. Daniel said the Messiah would be cut off. Isaiah spoke of the suffering saviour's failures. The Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross. Psalms 22 said the messiah would be brutally put to death and would feel betrayed by God. Jesus confirmed he was betrayed by God.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Pope Francis said during his whirlwind U.S. tour. "And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus ... and His life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."

Jesus was a Jew, he only preached to the Jews and he failed the Jews. No one can claim Jesus messiahship lifted the Jews or delivered them from their enemies. In fact Jesus was mocked, beaten and crucified by the Romans.

When they saw Jesus allow the Romans to mock, beat and desecrate his body temple. They no longer believed Jesus was the messiah sent to save them. jesus couldn't even save himself. Jesus let the Jews down.

70 AD was not the fulfillment of the messianic prophesies. The messiah was sent to save the Jews not leave them suffering, in more doubtful and lost. History of the Jews proves the success of the Jews today owe it to the destruction of the temple and the priesthood. It forced the Jews to concentrate of education and less on religious doctrines that was previously forced on them by their priests. Today the Jews are the most successful people despite they tragic history.
wars to destroy the nation of Israel. But the Jews regrouped and are back to rebuilding their nation. 70AD was not the end of the world for the Jews or their religious convictions.

Jesus wanted the people to believe Elijah had come because the messiah was to follow Elijah's coming and that would point to him. But John denied he was Elijah. It's in the scriptures.
Jesus accused the people for killing John/Elijah. But the scriptures tell us it was Herod who beheaded John over a personal matter. John's death had nothing to do with the people. Read your scriptures.

The Jews are still following the Torah by not offering sacrifices. . Because it was forbidden to bring sacrifices outside of the Holy Temple. Jews follow, today, the instructions taught us by King Solomon, the Prophet Hosea and the other Prophets, and we pray without bringing sacrifices.

About Isauah. Isaiah promised King Ahaz God would send him a sign a virgin mother and a child named Immanuel to reassure him that God was with him. Ahaz never found the virgin mother or a child name Immanuel.
Why do you quote failed prophets?

You make a big deal about the Jews not being able to make animal sacrifices because their temple was destroyed. That was the least of their problems. You forget God stood idly by when the Romans were mocking, beating and crucifying his son Jesus. Gid stood idly by when the Romans destroyed the temple his holy sanctuary and watched the Romans slaughter his chosen people. God failed both his son Jesus and the Jews. God has a lot more to atone for.

70AD was not the end of the world for the Jews or their religious convictions. It took 3 wars to destroy the nation of Israel. But the Jews regrouped and are back to rebuilding their nation and soon their temple.

Jesus lied again when he accused the people for killing John when everyone knew it was Herod who beheaded John over his wife's complaints.

Herod's reason for killing John was not on the bequest of the Jewish people. It was his wife that wanted John beheaded. Read your scriptures.

They all wanted to be baptized by John. No one ever asked Jesus to baptize them. John was not rejected by the people, Jesus was. It didn't help Jesus to hear John deny he was Elijah or John expressing his doubts about Jesus.

The Romans were punishing the Jews for rebelling against Roman rule. The Romans crucified their messiah Jesus and were desecrating their temple. They also started taxing the Jews heavily. The Jews revolted and the Romans brutally put down the rebellion. Why would God use the Romans who crucified his son Jesus and persecuted his chosen people to punish his chosen people? The Jews believed God would support their cause. But God betrayed them like he betrayed Jesus.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"). -
Harikrish
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3/12/2017 9:55:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from post#5

Preterist PGA addressed by Harikrish.

But the Jews were not rebelling against God, they were rebelling against the Romans who crucified their messiah Jesus and desecrated their temple.

Daniel said the temple would be destroyed because it would be desecrated and God would punish the Jews for desecrating it. It turns out it was the Romans who were desecrating the temple. Daniel was wrong.

Caligula first desecrated it by putting his bust on the alter. The Romans began to loot the temple. The Jews were trying to win their country back from a pagan ruler. You are saying God sided with the pagan Romans. You are completely lost!!

Where was Jesus who said he was given all authority over heaven and earth? Where was God? They both stood idly by as the pagan Romans destroyed God's temple and slaughtered God's chosen people after crucifying their messiah Jesus.

Jews tried to defend God's temple, but the Romans proved too powerful. They crucified God's son Jesus as a warning to God to stay out of the fight. God stood idly by and caved in.

Yes, Jesus had warned his disciples not to resist the Romans. If they could crucify the messiah they could not be challenged. Jesus proved his cowardice at his trial. He allowed the Romans to mock, beat and ridicule him before his people.

jesus and God failed the Jews. Daniel prophesied Jesus would be cut off and the desolation would fall on his people. Jesus was sent to 1) "to finish transgression," 2) "to put an end to sin," 3) "to atone for wickedness," 4) "to bring in everlasting righteousness," 5) "to seal up vision and prophecy," and 6) "to anoint the most holy."
But the Romans continued their transgression against the Jews, continued their pagan practices and disrupted God's plan by establishing the Church of Rome to replace the temple they destroyed.

Isaiah, Psalms 22, Daniel all prophesied the messiah sent by God would fail. God had predetermined Jesus's failure.
But the The Jews welcome Jesus as their messiah.
John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the king of Israel!"

But when they found out John was not Elijah, that John himself began to doubt Jesus, the lies by Jesus began mount. The final straw was seeing their messiah mocked, beaten and ridiculed by the Romans. This could not be their messiah who couldn't even defend himself against pagans. Jesus vindicated them of their doubts. Jesus confirmed he too was betrayed by God.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

You left out the reason for their disgust and departure. jesus had asked them to cannibalize him.
John 6:. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

John 6:60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

Jesus should have come prepared to be a messiah. He should have been warned he was going to have to deal with very powerful pagan Romans. He was put away after only three years and behaved like a rookie throughout his ministry. Why do you think it is taking Jesus so long to return? The thought of being crucified again is giving him second thoughts.

Jesus told his disciples after his resurrection he was given all authority over heaven and earth. But he used his powers to escape into the clouds to avoid the Romans who had just crucified him.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

He was despised and held in low esteem on his first coming.

Isaiah 53:3 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

After he was resurrected and given all authority over heaven and earth. He used his powers to ascend to his fathers house. He lives in his fathers basement and is a house cleaner in his fathers house.

John 14:2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

There are no prophets in the New Testament who prophesied Jesus's coming. No one even knew the messiah was born in a manger. It took Maggis from the east to welcome the child Jesus with gifts.

Isaiah told Ahaz God would send him a sign but no scriptures confirm Ahaz received the sign. Isaiah's prophecy was not fulfilled. Ahaz never found the virgin mother or her child named Immanuel. Matthew repeated the same failed prophecy of Isaiah.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

You lack the biblical scholarship to defend your faith and argue from ignorance.

Shalom Aleikhem,!

Read your scriptures.

John 1:21 They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."

There is no comparison between John and Elijah.

John was not Elijah in spirit or power.

Miracles by Elijah, John had none.

1) Causing the rain the cease for 3 1/2 years (1Ki 17:1)
2) Being fed by the ravens (1Ki 17:4)
3) Miracle of the barrel of meal and cruse of oil (1Ki 17:14)
4) Resurrection of the widow's son (1Ki 17:22)
5) Calling of fire from heaven on the altar (1Ki 18:38)
6) Causing it to rain (1Ki 18:45)
7) Prophecy that Ahab's sons would all be destroyed (1Ki 21:22)
8) Prophecy that Jezebel would be eaten by dogs (1Ki 21:23)
9) Prophecy that Ahaziah would die of his illness (2Ki 1:4)
10) Calling fire from heaven upon the first 50 soldiers (2Ki 1:10)
11) Calling fire from heaven upon the second 50 soldiers (2Ki 1:12)
12) Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:8)
13) Prophecy that Elisha should have

That alone should have ended Jesus's deluded belief that he was the messiah. There was no Elijah, the Elijah that was to come before the promised one never showed up.

The prophesies in Psalms 22, Daniel and Isaiah all prophesied Jesus would fail, he would be rejected and he would be put to death. Prophesies are from God given to prophets. Jesus failed, he was rejected and he was crucified. Just as God told his prophets.

The will of the father was Jesus should fail and be put to death

It all ended badly, nevertheless. On the last day Jesus cried out.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

2000 years later and the Jews still reject Jesus.

He was making blasphemous claims and trying to fool the people with trivial magic like making wine from water. That was not enough to prove he was God.

Jesus could not convince the people he was sent to save. The Jews were there and saw and heard Jesus. But were not convince after seeing him allow the Romans to mock, beat and ridicule him. That was no messiah but a flogged animal.

The Gospels give different accounts. But they all conclude he was tried, convicted and crucified.

He was before a trial with no escape route
Harikrish
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3/12/2017 10:18:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from post#6

Preterist PGA addressed by Harikrish.

The works of Josephus were forgeries according to most scholars.

The real reason for the great Revolt (66 - 70 CE)

Caligula's action radicalized even the more moderate Jews. What assurance did they have, after all, that another Roman ruler would not arise and try to defile the Temple or destroy Judaism altogether? In addition, Caligula's sudden demise might also have been interpreted as confirming the Zealots' belief that God would fight alongside the Jews if only they would have the courage to confront Rome.

In the decades after Caligula's death, Jews found their religion subject to periodic gross indignities, Roman soldiers exposing themselves in the Temple on one occasion, and burning a Torah scroll on another.

Ultimately, the combination of financial exploitation, Rome"s unbridled contempt for Judaism, and the unabashed favoritism that the Romans extended to gentiles living in Israel brought about the revolt.

In the year 66, Florus, the last Roman procurator, stole vast quantities of silver from the Temple. The outraged Jewish masses rioted and wiped out the small Roman garrison stationed in Jerusalem. Cestius Gallus, the Roman ruler in neighboring Syria, sent in a larger force of soldiers. But the Jewish insurgents routed them as well.

This was a heartening victory that had a terrible consequence: Many Jews suddenly became convinced that they could defeat Rome, and the Zealots' ranks grew geometrically. Never again, however, did the Jews achieve so decisive a victory.

When the Romans returned, they had 60,000 heavily armed and highly professional troops. They launched their first attack against the Jewish state's most radicalized area, the Galilee in the north. The Romans vanquished the Galilee, and an estimated 100,000 Jews were killed or sold into slavery.

The Jews locked themselves in their Temple believing they were safe in God's refuge. But the Romans who crucified their messiah had no respect for God's temple either. They set it on fire. They even looted the gold that melted into the walls. God stood idly by as the pagans desecrated his temple.

The Romans crucified Jesus. The Jews were under Roman rule and did not have the authority to crucify anyone.
They even shouted Hosanna and received Jesus as their messiah just as prophesied. That is not being at war with Jesus or God. Read your bible.

prophesies of Daniels 70 sevens don't add up. Nothing changed within the first 69 weeks or 483 years.

The Purpose of the 70 Weeks
The prophecy contains a statement concerning God"s six-fold purpose in bringing these events to pass. Verse 24 says this purpose is 1) to finish transgression," 2) "to put an end to sin," 3) "to atone for wickedness," 4) "to bring in everlasting righteousness," 5) "to seal up vision and prophecy," and 6) "to anoint the most holy."
But we know none of these 6 goals were achieved. Jesus was rejected not anointed.

The balance 7 years were even less dramatic. Jesus was crucified and Rome continued to grow oblivious of his absence.

Josephus was a historian and not a prophet. Most of his works are forgeries and very biased against the Jews.

2000 years have passed. Jesus is still the corpse that was nailed to a wooden cross. The crucifix adorns churches and hung around necks of wishful Christians..

Jesus was crucified by the Romans. His death was insignificant. The Jews continued to live with the Romans peacefully for decades after Jesus's crucifixion. Daniel did not prophecy the Jews rebelling against the Romans or their resulting consequences for going against the mighty Romans. Daniel spoke about their disobedience to God. There is no evidence of Jews desecrating their temple. But there is evidence of Romans desecrating the temple.

You have presented arguments from ignorance. The reason the Jews were repeatedly invaded by their neighbours and their temples sacked and destroyed was because they were not a powerful nation. The Jews were a tribal group. The stories about the patriarchs Abrahan, Moses and the kingdom of David and Solomon were just stories written to create nationalistic pride and unity. Archeology has demolished the bible. Those kingdoms were nothing but little cow towns according to Israli archeologist Israel Finkelstein.

You are old school and argue from the same failed positions that have been dismissed by archeology, history, textual criticism and biblical scholarship.

Jews still believed Jesus was their Messiah at the trial , they had just received him as their messiah shouting Hosanna. They dared the Romans to crucify him believing as a messiah Jesus would defend himself and his people against the wicked Romans. But when they saw Jesus allow the Romans to mock, beat and ridicule Jesus. They felt Jesus had lied to them and began to rejected him.
They were eyewitnesses to his humiliation and weak defence at the trial. Read your scriptures.

Yes, there were many more kingdoms and Empires following the end of the Roman Empire. Daniel was shortsighted and limited in his prophetic visions. According to him the world ended after 70 weeks or 490 years. Jesus was the other dumb person to believe Daniel. He rushed his death to fulfill the prophesies because there was only 7 years left to fulfill it. Jesus could not fulfill in three years all that Daniel listed. He has not fulfilled it 2000 years later.

It refers to the end of the wicked age and the coming of the age of righteousness . Never happened. We are as wicked as ever.

Why did God allow the Romans to destroy his Temple?

God allowed the destruction of the temple because he no longer wanted the Jews to sacrifice animals. God wanted them to start sacrificing Jews and used Jesus as an example of human sacrifice he would accept outside of the temple. Hitler a devout Christian took God seriously believing dead Jews could forgive sins.

Jesus was a failure of the cross. He was cut off by the Romans. The Romans destroyed the temple to put down a Jewish rebellion which was not an abomination of desolation. It took three wars before the nation of Israel was destroyed. All this had nothing to do with the Jews being disobedient to God. The Jews were at war with might Rome that brought about their demise.

The Jews were a weak tribal group who counted on God for their protection. God failed to defend the Jews through out their history. Read your bible.

Daniel's prophesies were debunked. Jesus was not anointed he was rejected and then crucified by the Romans. His 70 weeks prophesies produced no changes. 70 AD was outside his 70 weeks or 490 years window.

You are scripturally ignorant and your reading skill are terrible. Read the verse. John was asked two question. Are you Elijah (answer No)? Are you the prophet (answer No)?

Further down it is clear these are separate people. Messiah, Elijah and THE prophet and John is not any of them.
John 1:25 questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"

Jesus lied again when he accused the people for killing John when everyone knew it was Herod who beheaded John over his wife's complaints.

The scriptures already give us the reason why Herod has John beheaded. It was on account of his wife. Read your scriptures. Not Wiki for answers on the bible.

The scriptures tell us why Herod had John killed. It was because of his wife's grudge against John. It was over a personal matter.
Mark 6:17 For Herod himself had given orders to have John arrested, and he had him bound and put in prison. He did this because of Herodias, his brother Philip"s wife, whom he had married. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, "It is not lawful for you to have your brother"s wife." 19 So Herodias nursed a grudge against John and wanted to kill him.
Deb-8-A-Bull
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3/13/2017 12:27:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
This is exactly why I don't eat sun dried tomatoes.

Hey did I tell you I once beat a cat with a stick. ?
Harikrish
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3/13/2017 12:40:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2017 12:27:37 AM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
This is exactly why I don't eat sun dried tomatoes.

Hey did I tell you I once beat a cat with a stick. ?

Cats have nine lives. Should it come back as a lion, what is the chance you will be attacked by one?
Willows
Posts: 11,692
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3/13/2017 9:37:52 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2017 12:40:13 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/13/2017 12:27:37 AM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
This is exactly why I don't eat sun dried tomatoes.

Hey did I tell you I once beat a cat with a stick. ?

Cats have nine lives. Should it come back as a lion, what is the chance you will be attacked by one?

Now that you have gained your PhD for your paper F*** Preterism what more words of infinite wisdom await the avid reader?
Harikrish
Posts: 30,065
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3/13/2017 12:26:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2017 9:37:52 AM, Willows wrote:
At 3/13/2017 12:40:13 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/13/2017 12:27:37 AM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
This is exactly why I don't eat sun dried tomatoes.

Hey did I tell you I once beat a cat with a stick. ?

Cats have nine lives. Should it come back as a lion, what is the chance you will be attacked by one?

Now that you have gained your PhD for your paper F*** Preterism what more words of infinite wisdom await the avid reader?

Thank you for reading my posts and offering a feedback. I knew it was going to be a good experience for the reader, reading just the infinite wisdom in my replies without the clumsy awkward questions by a Preterist PGA.. The reader gets twice as much for half the time spent and he/she walks away with answers, not more questions.

Other methods I have employed to encourage spiritual and moral development.

All links can be referenced.

Most Spiritual discusses Spirituality
http://www.debate.org...

Why Muslims need a champion here.
http://www.debate.org...

Harikrish for Christian Champion
http://www.debate.org...

Pick Harikrish as your Championship
http://www.debate.org...

Jews were not prophet killers.
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

How to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses
http://www.debate.org...

How to deal with Preterism
Is Preterism partial lies or full lies.
http://www.debate.org...

Bible lacks concept of mental illness
http://www.debate.org...

Karmic justice.
http://www.debate.org...

Jesus was a liar and a lunatic.
http://www.debate.org...

Jesus was an alcoholic.
http://www.debate.org...

Jesus was a SOB (Son of a Bitch)
http://www.debate.org...

Jesus was crucified not sacrificed, duh!!
http://www.debate.org...

BOG chosen believers.
http://www.debate.org...

Davidic covenant is a literal fulfilment
http://www.debate.org...

God is the author of confusion.
http://www.debate.org...

All Hindus please sign here
http://www.debate.org...

Michael is no Jesus
http://www.debate.org...

God relinquished his authority
http://www.debate.org...

Christian paradox explained
http://www.debate.org...

How to deal with Preterism.
http://www.debate.org...

The God Gene.
http://www.debate.org...
Willows
Posts: 11,692
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3/14/2017 10:19:19 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/13/2017 12:26:24 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/13/2017 9:37:52 AM, Willows wrote:
At 3/13/2017 12:40:13 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/13/2017 12:27:37 AM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:
This is exactly why I don't eat sun dried tomatoes.

Hey did I tell you I once beat a cat with a stick. ?

Cats have nine lives. Should it come back as a lion, what is the chance you will be attacked by one?

Now that you have gained your PhD for your paper F*** Preterism what more words of infinite wisdom await the avid reader?

Thank you for reading my posts and offering a feedback. I knew it was going to be a good experience for the reader, reading just the infinite wisdom in my replies without the clumsy awkward questions by a Preterist PGA.. The reader gets twice as much for half the time spent and he/she walks away with answers, not more questions.

Other methods I have employed to encourage spiritual and moral development.

All links can be referenced.

Most Spiritual discusses Spirituality
http://www.debate.org...

Why Muslims need a champion here.
http://www.debate.org...

Harikrish for Christian Champion
http://www.debate.org...

Pick Harikrish as your Championship
http://www.debate.org...

Jews were not prophet killers.
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

How to deal with Jehovah's Witnesses
http://www.debate.org...

How to deal with Preterism
Is Preterism partial lies or full lies.
http://www.debate.org...

Bible lacks concept of mental illness
http://www.debate.org...


Karmic justice.
http://www.debate.org...

Jesus was a liar and a lunatic.
http://www.debate.org...

Jesus was an alcoholic.
http://www.debate.org...

Jesus was a SOB (Son of a Bitch)
http://www.debate.org...


Jesus was crucified not sacrificed, duh!!
http://www.debate.org...

BOG chosen believers.
http://www.debate.org...

Davidic covenant is a literal fulfilment
http://www.debate.org...

God is the author of confusion.
http://www.debate.org...

All Hindus please sign here
http://www.debate.org...

Michael is no Jesus
http://www.debate.org...

God relinquished his authority
http://www.debate.org...

Christian paradox explained
http://www.debate.org...

How to deal with Preterism.
http://www.debate.org...

The God Gene.
http://www.debate.org...

Great stuff....here's another.....
Harikrish
Posts: 30,065
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3/15/2017 3:35:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from post#7

Preterist PGA lectured by Harikrish.

He was talking about John being Elijah even after John denied he was Elijah. That proves Jesus would lie even when others knew the truth. Christians who follow Jesus are expected to do the same.

Show scriptures where the Jews killed their prophets?

Comparing Elijah's spirit and power to John prices John was not Elijah.

Miracles by Elijah, John had none. John was not Elijah in spirt or power.

1) Causing the rain the cease for 3 1/2 years (1Ki 17:1)
2) Being fed by the ravens (1Ki 17:4)
3) Miracle of the barrel of meal and cruse of oil (1Ki 17:14)
4) Resurrection of the widow's son (1Ki 17:22)
5) Calling of fire from heaven on the altar (1Ki 18:38)
6) Causing it to rain (1Ki 18:45)
7) Prophecy that Ahab's sons would all be destroyed (1Ki 21:22)
8) Prophecy that Jezebel would be eaten by dogs (1Ki 21:23)
9) Prophecy that Ahaziah would die of his illness (2Ki 1:4)
10) Calling fire from heaven upon the first 50 soldiers (2Ki 1:10)
11) Calling fire from heaven upon the second 50 soldiers (2Ki 1:12)
12) Parting of the Jordan (2Ki 2:8)
13) Prophecy that Elisha should have a double portion of his spirit (2Ki 2:10)
14) Being caught up to heaven in a whirlwind (2Ki 2:11)

That alone should have ended Jesus's deluded belief that he was the messiah. There was no Elijah, the Elijah that was to come before the promised one never showed up.

Jesus was crucified for his deluded claims which the people found blasphemous. Read your scripture.

Jesus claimed he was an alien from some other world which again contradicts all the prophesies. Jesus was sent to save the Jews and reestablish the Davidic Kingdom. At the trial he was claiming his kingdom was already there and was not of this world. But it turns out that was not the kingdom he established. That was the existing kingdom of God the father where he was going to, to do house cleaning.

http://www.debate.org...
Never happened. David's kingdom was an earthly kingdom.

God is confirming it is a physical kingdom to be built around Mount Zion. Mount Zion is the high hill on which David built a citadel. The royal palace was built there, and Zion/Jerusalem became the seat of power in Israel"s kingdom.

Israel is still waiting for the Davidic kingdom to be reestablish and the temple to be rebuilt.

The promise that David"s "house," "kingdom," and "throne" will be established forever is significant because it shows that the Messiah will come from the lineage of David and that He will establish a kingdom from which He will reign. The covenant is summarized by the words "house," promising a dynasty in the lineage of David; "kingdom," referring to a people who are governed by a king; "throne," emphasizing the authority of the king"s rule; and "forever," emphasizing the eternal and unconditional nature of this promise to David and Israel.

Jesus is not yet declared the king of Israel. He never claimed or earned that title. He even said his kingdom was not of this world, even though David's kingdom was.

Jesus is not yet declared the king of Israel. He never claimed or earned that title. He even said his kingdom was not of this world, even though David's kingdom was.

Other references to the Davidic Covenant are found in Jeremiah 23:5; 30:9; Isaiah 9:7; 11:1; Luke 1:32, 69; Acts 13:34; and Revelation 3:7."

But no everlasting kingdom of David.

That is a mute point. Jesus at the trial was asked if he was the king of the Jews. Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world. Therefore denying he was an earthly King or King of the Jews.

Note the promise to David and the people of Israel an everlasting kingdom to be established by Jesus. Jesus has not established a kingdom. He is now in his fathers basement living as a house cleaner.

That was the expectation. But we know the conclusion. Jesus now lives in his fathers basement and prepares rooms for guests. Jesus is now a house cleaner in heaven.

John 14:2 My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you.

Ultimate proof Jesus was proven to be a blasphemous liar and lunatic. jesus was crucified before the people. 2000 years later people still carry the crucifix which is the symbol of a Jewish rabbi who was crucified for his deluded and blasphemous claims.
Facts are stubborn. They just won't go away.

It is verses in scriptures that prove Jesus was wrong when he said John is Elijah. There could hardly be two persons more dissimilar than John and Elijah.

It was not fulfilled because Jesus was not anointed by the end of the period. He was rejected and crucified. Daniels 70 weeks according to you is 70 X 7 = 490 years from when the decree is issued to rebuild the temple and city until it is destroyed again.

But the temple was destroyed in 80 week or 560 year which is outside the 490 years predicted by Daniel.

Everlasting righteousness never arrived. Nothing has changed. Just because a deluded blasphemous liar said something, it doesn't make it true. In fact the Romans continued their transgressions after crucifying Jesus. They went on to destroy the temple and replaced it with their pagan churches. They destroyed the Jews and filled their churches with Gentiles.

You wrote: "Daniel's people are given 70 weeks of years or heptads to finish their transgression, a time when their sins would be put away with judgment. The period starts at a specific point in time. It speaks of the Messiah coming near the end of those 70 weeks and being cut off or killed. It speaks of all righteousness being fulfilled in the 70 weeks scope regarding these people. It speaks of another destruction of Jerusalem and its temple, of a desecration and abomination and then the end will come.

70 X 7 = 490 years from when the decree is issued to rebuild the temple and city until it is destroyed again."

We know the Jews faithfully followed the Torah. We know the Jews rebuilt the temple and Jerusalem. But the Roman Prince cut off Jesus not the Jews. The Jews continued to atone for their sins after Jesus was crucified because the temple was still there. According to Danieks 70 week (490 years) Jesus would arrive in week 69 (483 years) from the date the decree was issued. There was only 7 years left to fulfill the rest of his prophecy. Nothing happen for another 40 years. The Jewish Roman war went on till 136 AD. So 70 AD was not the end of the Jewish nation.

Arrival of Jesus according to Daniel.

Daniel indicates how long the time period leading to the arrival of "Messiah the Leader" would last. The prophecy mentions "7 weeks, also 62 weeks""a total of 69 weeks. Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years.

Historians confirm that the year 474 B.C.E. was Artaxerxes" first full year as ruler. Therefore, the 20th year of his rule was 455 B.C.E. Now we have the starting point for Daniel"s Messianic prophecy, that is, 455 B.C.E.

Now all we must do is count. If we count from 455 B.C.E., a period of 483 years takes us to the year 29 C.E. That was exactly the year when Jesus was baptized and became the Messiah!

Death of Jesus and the beginning of the abomination of desolation to be fulfilled within the remaining 7 years (490 - 483) = 7. We know jests was crucified 3 years later.

Daniel tells us when the dreadful days were to begin 3.5 years after the death of Jesus.

Daniele 12: 11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

But nothing happened after Jesus's death for another 40 years. Even then it took another 66 years after 70 AD to destroy the nation of Israel. Daniels prophesies don't add
Harikrish
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3/22/2017 5:07:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from Post#13

Preterist PGA lectured by Harikrish

Josephus and the Jesus forgeries.
https://michaelsherlockauthor.wordpress.com...

The real reason for the great Revolt (66 - 70 CE)

Ancient Jewish History: The Great Revolt (66 - 70 CE)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

the Roman Empire. But kingdoms and empires have come and gone even after the end of the Roman Empire. The Daniel 70 weeks or (70 x 7) 490 years did not achieve any of the things that would supposedly lead to the abomination of desolation.

The Jews had their first temple destroyed. It did not end Judaism. Judaism did not end after the second temple destruction either. Your minority view has been debunked.

Daniels 70 weeks stopped short of fulfilment. His math did not add up.

Arrival of Jesus (483 year from decree or 29CE) crucifixion of Jesus 32CE end of Daniel's 70 weeks 36 CE or 490 years from decree). We have gone 2000 years past his prophecy if 70 weeks.

Daniel indicates how long the time period leading to the arrival of "Messiah the Leader" would last. The prophecy mentions "7 weeks, also 62 weeks""a total of 69 weeks. Therefore, the prophetic 69 weeks amount to 69 units of 7 years each, or a total of 483 years.

Historians confirm that the year 474 B.C.E. was Artaxerxes" first full year as ruler. Therefore, the 20th year of his rule was 455 B.C.E. Now we have the starting point for Daniel"s Messianic prophecy, that is, 455 B.C.E.

Now all we must do is count. If we count from 455 B.C.E., a period of 483 years takes us to the year 29 C.E. That was exactly the year when Jesus was baptized and became the Messiah!

Death of Jesus and the beginning of the abomination of desolation to be fulfilled within the remaining 7 years (490 - 483) = 7. We know jests was crucified 3 years later.

Daniel tells us when the dreadful days were to begin 3.5 years after the death of Jesus.

Daniele 12: 11 "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

But nothing happened after Jesus's death for another 40 years. The Jewish Roman war continued for another 66 years after 70 AD to 136 CE. Daniels prophesies don't add up..

Jesus did not know it was the Romans who were going to loot, desecrate and destroy the temple. Jesus was only quoting Daniel. But we know Daniels 70 weeks ended before the temple was destroyed. It end in 36CE. The temple was destroyed to put down a Jewish rebellion 40 years later which was way past Daniels 70 weeks prophecy.

The looting of the temple was done by Romans which was how the temple was desecrated.

The Jews believing Jesus was their messiah dared the Romans to kill their messiah and suffer the consequences. It turns out Jesus was not a messiah. He did not resist or retaliate. He allowed the Romans to mock, beat and ridicule his body temple. That was when the people began to seriously doubt Jesus was a messiah.

The scriptures tell us the people received Jesus as their messiah before he was mocked, beaten and ridiculed by the Romans.
They even shouted Hosanna and received Jesus as their messiah just as prophesied. That is not being at war with Jesus or God. Read your bible.

It was prophesied in Psalms22, Isaiah and Daniel that Jesus would fail. God intended Jesus to fail. Even though the Jews shouted Hosanna and welcomed Jesus as their messiah on Palm Sunday which was also prophesied. Jesus was doomed to fail according to all the prophesies. That was God's plan. He used the Romans to carry out the crucifixion.

John 10:32
but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

Jesus was trying to fool the people to accept him as their messiah with magic. But the miracles he performed did not convince them he was a messiah. That is why they were threatening to stone him for blasphemy.

The Purpose of the 70 Weeks

The prophecy contains a statement concerning God"s six-fold purpose in bringing these events to pass. Verse 24 says this purpose is 1) to finish transgression," 2) "to put an end to sin," 3) "to atone for wickedness," 4) "to bring in everlasting righteousness," 5) "to seal up vision and prophecy," and 6) "to anoint the most holy."
But we know none of these 6 goals were achieved. Jesus was rejected not anointed, sin never ended, righteousness was not realized.

Jesus was not anointed, he was tried, convicted and crucified. His death did not put an end to sacrifice. The temple was still there open for sacrifices. The seven years left were relatively peaceful. Jesus's death was insignificant.

Where does it say Jesus gave them 40 years to repent?

Daniels prophecy end in 36CE.

Jesus's ministry only lasted 3 years. It was only a few days before he was crucified that he openly declared he was a messiah. Before that he told his disciples not to tell anyone he was a messiah. Why did the people have to repent when he never disclosed his identity to them?

The NT is talking about Jesus's failure to fulfill the messianic prophesies because of events out of God's control. I.e. The Romans.

But the end of the age did not happen. A lying lunatic (Jesus) was crucified and a temple destroyed and the Jews were temporarily scattered. How does that end an age? The Jews have regrouped, Judaism is very much alive and the covenant is still intact.

There is the end of the world as we know it. It's to end the wicked age. Never happened.

The end of the age that Jesus talks about is his departure. He was sent to save the Jews. He failed. Fortunately the Jews survived Jesus's failure. Don't you love them?

When jesus spoke of the end of the age. He was talking about the end of persecution of Israel and the coming of the everlasting Davidic kingdom with him on David's throne. David was a Jewish king. Jesus was a Jew. That can only mean a Jewish kingdom. Jesus did not owe anything to the Gentiles. The Romans crucified him and ended his ministry. His mission was to save the Jews. Now he has to return to finish the job.
There would be no point him returning if the OT age was over. That would be complete failure because he was sent to save the Jews as their Messiah.

Jesus was crucified for what he said. He must have said very dumb things.

God allowed the destruction of the temple because he no longer wanted the Jews to sacrifice animals. God wanted them to start sacrificing Jews and used Jesus as an example of human sacrifice he would accept outside of the temple. Hitler a devout Christian took God seriously believing dead Jews could forgive sins.

Nonsense. God said the new covenant would free Israel of their past inequities.

Jeremiah 31:34 "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.

The Jews were a weak tribal group who counted on God for their protection. God failed to defend the Jews through out their history. Read your bible.

God said He would send his son Jesus to be sacrificed for their sins. That was how God honoured his covenant with Israel.

That is the same flawed explanation given to Jesus's prophesies that it was not for Jesus's generation. Yet you apply it to his generation. You cannot have it both ways.

Daniels prophesies were debunked. Jesus was not anointed he was rejected and then crucified by the Romans. His 70 weeks produced no changes. 70 AD was outside his 70 weeks.

That isn't the only sad part. PGA has dedicated his life to further distorting those fictional stories. I am trying to preserve the integrity of these fictional stores since the authors are no longer here to defend their work.

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PGA
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3/27/2017 5:44:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/12/2017 7:12:47 PM, Harikrish wrote:
Preterist PGA. My address to him.

My views are based on the literal interpretation of the scriptures, textual criticism, archeological discovery and historical context.

Your Preterism views are a minority view based on semantic and word association.
1. The David kingdom was a physical kingdom.
Your interpretation the future Davidic Kindgom will be of a spiritual kind.
2.The covenant was made with the People of Israel and Judah. Israel is a physical country, the Jews are a physical people.
Your interpretations the new Israel is a spiritual people.
3. Jesus's return will be a physical return. He will come in the clouds, trumpets will be heard and the dead resurrected from their graves.
Your interpretation. Jesus's return was spiritual, the people's resurrection will be spiritual.
4. 70 AD was the war between Jews and Romans. Not between forces of good and evil. The Jews lost. The Romans destroyed the temple and punished the Jews.
Your interpretation Jesus said the temple would be destroyed. But Jesus also said his body was the temple. His body temple was desecrated which brought about the abomination of desolation. But not on the Romans who desecrated both temples. Jesus and God's temple and replaced the temple with the Roman Church.

In short substituting the physical with the spiritual leaves it outside the realm of science, history, archeology and even textual criticism and leaves it to the imagination. We know more about the physical world and have experts dedicated to growing our knowledge. But very little is known about the spiritual world that Jesus spoke about. It is an utopian fantasy. There are no experts in that field and people like you and other Christians are hard pressed to understand the real world you live in and certainly not experts on the spiritual realm.

Show how your minority view has been proven true?

Prophesies talk about the re-glorification of the Davidic kingdom. There is the Kingdom of God (Heaven) and a Kingdom of David (Earth). But the Kindgon of David remains a relic of the past.jesus appears to be sitting on the right hand of God. Has God surrender his kingdom to David? David has not been resurrected yet. Lol!

The Jews have survived the Roman and other persecutions. They number around 14 million today out of which 6 million live in Israel. They still follow Judaism and the temple and priests are now replaced by Rabbis and synagogues. They are even considering rebuilding the destroyed temple.it is why God put the Jews first above the Gentiles. Such determination!!

But the only covenant made was with Israel. Every scripture points to the Jews first placed ahead of the Gentiles.

The scriptures make his return a physical event. Think how crowded it will get sharing the space with the resurrected dead, mostly Jews.

Yes the Mosaic covenant was a conditional covenant. But the ones that remain are covenants with the people of Israel.
Remember Jesus said he was only sent to save the lost sheep of Israel. Jews before Gentiles.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Testament. He preached mainly around Galilee.
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

What was a Messiah expected to fulfil ?

1. Jesus did not fulfil the messianic prophecies.
2. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

Jesus did not fulfil the Messianic Prophecies:

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? One of the central themes of biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4, 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Specifically, the Bible says he will:

1. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
2. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
3. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
4. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world " on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Why Jews don't believe in Jesus? If any one could spot a rotten Jew it had to be another Jew. But the whole Jewish people rejecting Jesus and shouting out Crucify Him! Crucify Him! They were there, they knew their prophesies, they knew Jesus. 2000 years later they still maintain Jesus was not a messiah. Any wonder God picked the Jews to be first and ahead of the Gentiles. They are an uncompromising bunch of covenant contract holders. Lol.

There was a gap over 400 years between the last prophet Malachi and Jesus. Was it because the Jews repented and there was no need for prophets?
"Answer: The 400 years of silence refers to the time between the Old Testament and New Testaments, during which God did not speak to the Jewish people. The 400 years of silence began with the warning that closed the Old Testament: "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse" (Malachi 4:5-6) and ended with the coming of John the Baptist, the Messiah"s forerunner. "

But John the Baptist was not Elijah. John was even asked if he was Elijah and John said No!
John 1:21 They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."

That alone should have ended Jesus's deluded belief that he was the messiah. There was no Elijah, the Elijah that was to come before the promised one never showed up.

From Genesis to Malachi, there are over 300 specific prophecies detailing the coming of this Anointed One. These prophesies were repeated over a period of 4000 years. Should these numbered prophesies be evidence that established Jesus was indeed the Anointed One? It actually proves they were all guesses and not prophesies. In fact Jesus himself was not sure he was the Anointed One. He asked his disciples not to tell anyone.

Matthew 16:20 - Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

That is a contradiction of scriptures. 300 prophesies spread over 4000 years from Genesis to Malachi detailing the coming of this Anointed One and when the Messiah finally arrives he tells his disciples to keep hush about it. Was Jesus afraid to admit he was the Anointed One? Was he unprepared to accept his role? That he was crucified proves the latter.

Now Daniel supposedly gave the exact date of the Messiah's arrival and death. Much has been made about the accuracy of his prediction. So why was Jesus referring to Daniels prophecy to validate his messianic presence? He had arrived and could well stand behind his own claims of being the Anointed One. Why was he asking the people to believe Malachi and Daniel so they could accept him as their Messiah? That is further proof Jesus believed the people found the prophets were more trustworthy than him and was struggling to use them to validate his claims. He failed, they saw through his delusional scheming and crucified him.

Address some of these issues after my debate.

Peter
Harikrish
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3/30/2017 10:14:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Continued from post #14

Preterist PGA lectured by Harikrish.

Archaeological Evidence for the Bible is Non-Existent!"

"The Archaeological Evidence for the Bible is scarce. In fact, it is non-existent. After 200 years of Christian archaeologists digging up the whole Middle East, they haven"t found any proof of the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt, Hebrew Slaves or the Ten Plagues. NONE!!! And this from a nation of people who wrote EVERYTHING down in stone!! And Sinai has no proof of any large group of people travelling through it EVER!!! The first evidence correlating to the biblical story doesn"t appear in Canaan archaeology until around 100 years before the Babylonian Captivity (around 600 BC).

This lack of evidence includes persons such as David and Solomon who should be recorded in other nations and supposedly lived relatively close to those who wrote the Bible in the Babylonian Captivity around 500 B.C.

https://www.probe.org...

Now Daniel supposedly gave the exact date of the Messiah's arrival and death. Much has been made about the accuracy of his prediction. So why was Jesus referring to Daniels prophecy to validate his messianic presence? He had arrived and could well stand behind his own claims of being the Anointed One. Why was he asking the people to believe Malachi and Daniel so they could accept him as their Messiah? That is further proof Jesus believed the people found the prophets were more trustworthy than him and was struggling to use them to validate his claims. He failed, they saw through his delusional scheming and crucified him.

24""Seventy weeks have been decreed [1] for your people and your holy city, [2] to finish the transgression, [3] to make an end of sin, [4] to make atonement for iniquity, [5] to bring in everlasting righteousness, [6] to seal up vision and prophecy and [7] to anoint the most holy place.

It was not fulfilled because Jesus was not anointed by the end of the period. He was rejected and crucified. Daniels 70 weeks according to you is 70 X 7 = 490 years from when the decree is issued to rebuild the temple and city until it is destroyed again. That ended in 39 CE.

Daniel 7:13-14 was just a dream. Revelations was written after Jesus died. Both don't even have the word anointed in them. Lol!

John 19:40. Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.

Proof Jesus was buried like a commoner an average Jew. Jesus was crucified and not anointed.

Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous claims. No one would have dared to kill him if he was truly a messiah/son of God/God. He even denied he was the king of the Jews. He said his kingdom was not of this world. The Romans nailed Jesus to a wooden

Daniels 490 years ended in 36 CE. Read your scriptures. The 70 weeks was cakculated after the decree in Jeremaih. The holy city was not destroyed within that seventy weeks.

All that was to happen in the remaining 7 years after the sixty-two week when the messiah was to be cut off. After the crucifixion of Jesus 3.5 years remained. Nothing happened!! Jesus's death was insignificant.

Jesus did not pronounce any judgement. He did not even announce he was a messiah till the end. And when he did, he was arrested , tried, convicted and crucified by the Romans.

The city and temple were not destroyed because Jesus was crucified. The two events are not even related and happened 40 years apart.

Jews continued to follow the Torah. It forbid them to make sacrifices outside the temple. So They stopped making sacrifices. That is obeying the Torah.

God ended animal sacrifices by using the Romans to destroy the temple and introduced human sacrifice of Jews by sacrificing Jesus a Jew claiming dead Jews could forgive sins. Hitler took God seriously, he too believed dead Jews could forgive sins.

No flood was sent. The temple burnt to the grown. It might have been saved if there was a flood.

Same repeated ranting. The truth is Jesus said he did not know when these thing would happen. But he said he would return before his disciples tasted death. But that never hppened!!!

For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

Jesus even lied at his trial to the priest.

The priest said to Him, "I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."" (Matthew 26: 63, 64)

Jesus tells the high priest that he would see him returning on the clouds.

Jesus said John is Elijah, the Elijah that was to come. But they did not recognize him when he came and killed him.

Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

Matthew 17:12 , But I tell you Elijah has already come,and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.

But John was not Elijah and he was not killed by the people. John was killed by Herod on count of his wife.

John 1:21 They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" He answered, "No."

That is why Preterism is a minority viewpoint. It distorts scriptures beyond recognition.

It was not fulfilled because Jesus was not anointed by the end of the period. He was rejected and crucified. Daniels 70 weeks according to you is 70 X 7 = 490 years from when the decree is issued to rebuild the temple and city until it is destroyed again.

Jesus was never anointed as King. He even denied he was king of the Jews at his trial.
John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Daniel 7:13-14 was just a dream. Revelations was written after Jesus died. Both don't even have the word anointed in them. Lol!

It could be argued that Jesus was anointed long before this heavenly setting:

Jesus was an alien. He said so himself. In fact he only began to believe he was a messiah days before his crucifixion. He was so uncertain about his identity that he asked his disciples for their opinion.

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

Then was too afraid and wanted it kept a secret.

Matthew 16:20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

And at the trial even denied he was their messiah.

John 18:36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Mark 14:1-3 And Luke 4:1-9 are the same. A leper woman poured oil on Jesus. is that the only anointment that Daniel was talking about? Lol!!

All the high priests were also anointed. Pretty common ritual. Jesus was not among them.

The high priests that were anointed were custodians to Gods laws and sacrifices. Jesus was a carpenter's son, unemployed and ranted on delusionally for three years before he was crucified for blasphemy.

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PGA
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4/2/2017 6:04:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/30/2017 10:14:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I want the same number of posts uninterrupted when I take to responding to these posts.

Peter
Harikrish
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4/2/2017 2:36:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2017 6:04:32 AM, PGA wrote:
At 3/30/2017 10:14:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I want the same number of posts uninterrupted when I take to responding to these posts.

Peter

The OP is How to deal with Preterism. If you want to promote Preterism you should create your own OP and list all the points that support Preterism just like I wanted all the arguments against Preterism in one place. Then maybe we can merge the two with a Q&A format.addressing each point in each other's list.

The main reasons for keeping it separate is obvious. My biblical scholarship versus your minority view of Scriptures. My literary presentation versus your dull repetitive clumsy denial. When John said he was not Elijah. There is no other interpretation for such a direct statement. When John began to doubt Jesus was the promised one it was the start of the slippery slope downhill which ended in the crucifuxion of the blasphemous liar Jesus. All prophesies point to Jesus failing. Jesus failed which is how he fulfilled the prophesies.

Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross:

"And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus" and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."
PGA
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4/2/2017 4:43:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2017 2:36:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/2/2017 6:04:32 AM, PGA wrote:
At 3/30/2017 10:14:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I want the same number of posts uninterrupted when I take to responding to these posts.

The OP is How to deal with Preterism. If you want to promote Preterism you should create your own OP and list all the points that support Preterism just like I wanted all the arguments against Preterism in one place. Then maybe we can merge the two with a Q&A format.addressing each point in each other's list.

No, the OP is how to misrepresent Preterism by a stupid literal interpretation (per your first post).

"My views are based on the literal interpretation of the scriptures, textual criticism, archeological discovery and historical context." - Hari

Scripture has to be interpreted by the rules of hermeneutics governed by the context of the passage and type of language otherwise eisegesis takes place instead of exegesis.

The main reasons for keeping it separate is obvious. My biblical scholarship versus your minority view of Scriptures. My literary presentation versus your dull repetitive clumsy denial. When John said he was not Elijah. There is no other interpretation for such a direct statement. When John began to doubt Jesus was the promised one it was the start of the slippery slope downhill which ended in the crucifuxion of the blasphemous liar Jesus. All prophesies point to Jesus failing. Jesus failed which is how he fulfilled the prophesies.

You are no Bible scholar. Your views most often run contrary to mainline biblical scholarship.

You also make the cardinal error of thinking that just because a view is in the minority it is wrong, and if you want to get technical then your view of Scripture is definitely in the minority. You just make it up as you go. It does not represent the major view throughout the centuries. It's bazaar. The church throughout the ages has viewed Jesus as both God and man. The doctrine of His deity was developed to counter false teachings by applying the teachings of the Bible to Jesus.

Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross:

You take the Pope out of context.

"And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus" and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."

As seen from a human perspective, one could say these things, but when you combine the teachings of the Pope and RC church then you see what is being taught is not the failure of Jesus but His success.

Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


What you, Harikrish, write misrepresents Preterism and what I believe can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree to be a correct biblical interpretation. So, I will address it if I want to and on this post for the very reasons I have stated. It just depends on whether I want to take the time to do it. You keep spewing forth this utter garbage showing you are a false teacher who cannot see truth and refuse to come to the truth because you are too proud to turn from your error.

Peter
Harikrish
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4/2/2017 10:02:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2017 4:43:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 2:36:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/2/2017 6:04:32 AM, PGA wrote:
At 3/30/2017 10:14:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:

I want the same number of posts uninterrupted when I take to responding to these posts.

The OP is How to deal with Preterism. If you want to promote Preterism you should create your own OP and list all the points that support Preterism just like I wanted all the arguments against Preterism in one place. Then maybe we can merge the two with a Q&A format.addressing each point in each other's list.

No, the OP is how to misrepresent Preterism by a stupid literal interpretation (per your first post).

"My views are based on the literal interpretation of the scriptures, textual criticism, archeological discovery and historical context." - Hari

Scripture has to be interpreted by the rules of hermeneutics governed by the context of the passage and type of language otherwise eisegesis takes place instead of exegesis.

All prophesies point to Jesus failing. Jesus failed and by his failure fulfilled the prophesies. The Pope was right to declare Jesus was a failure of the cross.

The main reasons for keeping it separate is obvious. My biblical scholarship versus your minority view of Scriptures. My literary presentation versus your dull repetitive clumsy denial. When John said he was not Elijah. There is no other interpretation for such a direct statement. When John began to doubt Jesus was the promised one it was the start of the slippery slope downhill which ended in the crucifuxion of the blasphemous liar Jesus. All prophesies point to Jesus failing. Jesus failed which is how he fulfilled the prophesies.

You are no Bible scholar. Your views most often run contrary to mainline biblical scholarship.

I just got the Pope who is the leader of a billion Christians to agree with my position that Jesus was a failure. The Jews whose religion it was also agree Jesus failed to fulfill the messiah's role. The majority of Christians are still waiting for the second coming of Christ thereby dismissing Preterism.

You also make the cardinal error of thinking that just because a view is in the minority it is wrong, and if you want to get technical then your view of Scripture is definitely in the minority. You just make it up as you go. It does not represent the major view throughout the centuries. It's bazaar. The church throughout the ages has viewed Jesus as both God and man. The doctrine of His deity was developed to counter false teachings by applying the teachings of the Bible to Jesus.

I just got the Pope who is the leader of a billion Christians to agree with my position that Jesus was a failure. The Jews whose religion it was also agree Jesus failed to fulfill the messiah's role. The majority of Christians are still waiting for the second coming of Christ thereby dismissing Preterism.

Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross:

You take the Pope out of context.

"And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus" and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."

As seen from a human perspective, one could say these things, but when you combine the teachings of the Pope and RC church then you see what is being taught is not the failure of Jesus but His success.

The link agrees Jesus failed.
"In Jesus" day, people expected the Messiah to lead a triumphant rebellion against the Romans, restore political independence to Israel, and reign in Jerusalem as a Davidic king.

Jesus didn"t do any of those things.

Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

From the perspective of most people of the day, based on their expectations of what the Messiah would do, he looked like a failed political revolutionary."

From Jesus perspective God failed him.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

According to the Pope Jesus was a failure of the cross.

"And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus" and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."

According to your link from God's perspective Jesus did exactly what he was sent to do.
But we know that God did not intend the Gentiles to crucify his son, destroy his temple and destroy the nation of Israel. Jesus gave the reason he was sent by God.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


How can you be save if Jesus only saved the generation he was talking to according to Preterism?

What you, Harikrish, write misrepresents Preterism and what I believe can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree to be a correct biblical interpretation. So, I will address it if I want to and on this post for the very reasons I have stated. It just depends on whether I want to take the time to do it. You keep spewing forth this utter garbage showing you are a false teacher who cannot see truth and refuse to come to the truth because you are too proud to turn from your error.

You are struggling to defend Preterism because you are using arguments that have been debunked. Substituting physical with spiritual makes all those prophesies of physical occurances mute because spiritual events cannot be seen and must be imagined.

In short substituting the physical with the spiritual leaves it outside the realm of science, history, archeology and even textual criticism and leaves it to the imagination. We know more about the physical world and have experts dedicated to growing our knowledge. But very little is known about the spiritual world that Jesus spoke about. It is an utopian fantasy. There are no experts in that field and people like you and other Christians are hard pressed to understand the real world you live in and certainly not experts in the spiritual realm.
PGA
Posts: 5,112
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4/3/2017 12:51:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/2/2017 10:02:45 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/2/2017 4:43:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 2:36:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
Deleted your nonsense on the Pope.

"In Jesus" day, people expected the Messiah to lead a triumphant rebellion against the Romans, restore political independence to Israel, and reign in Jerusalem as a Davidic king.

Jesus didn"t do any of those things.

That is not the reason He came.

Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

From the perspective of most people of the day, based on their expectations of what the Messiah would do, he looked like a failed political revolutionary."

What they thought He would do.

From Jesus perspective God failed him.

No, you again are guilty of selective Scriptures.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."


According to your link from God's perspective Jesus did exactly what he was sent to do.

Yes, He did.

But we know that God did not intend the Gentiles to crucify his son, destroy his temple and destroy the nation of Israel. Jesus gave the reason he was sent by God.

Yes, He did.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


How can you be save if Jesus only saved the generation he was talking to according to Preterism?

He did not only save that generation. All who believe in Him are saved. The wrath prophesied in the OT to an OT people was filled up in that generation.

What you, Harikrish, write misrepresents Preterism and what I believe can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree to be a correct biblical interpretation. So, I will address it if I want to and on this post for the very reasons I have stated. It just depends on whether I want to take the time to do it. You keep spewing forth this utter garbage showing you are a false teacher who cannot see truth and refuse to come to the truth because you are too proud to turn from your error.

You are struggling to defend Preterism because you are using arguments that have been debunked. Substituting physical with spiritual makes all those prophesies of physical occurances mute because spiritual events cannot be seen and must be imagined.

I'm not struggling to defend it. You keep twisting Scripture. I can and have demonstrated this.

The problem is that you are not accountable for what you write. You can't justify it.

In short substituting the physical with the spiritual leaves it outside the realm of science, history, archeology and even textual criticism and leaves it to the imagination.

I only interpret it as figurative when the text suggests as much. I don't woodenly interpret everything as literal as you claim you do. No one can do that without making a fool of themselves.

We know more about the physical world and have experts dedicated to growing our knowledge. But very little is known about the spiritual world that Jesus spoke about. It is an utopian fantasy. There are no experts in that field and people like you and other Christians are hard pressed to understand the real world you live in and certainly not experts in the spiritual realm.

Thanks for your opinion. I know enough to hold my own.

Peter
Harikrish
Posts: 30,065
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4/3/2017 2:44:41 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2017 12:51:25 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 10:02:45 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/2/2017 4:43:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 2:36:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
Deleted your nonsense on the Pope.

The Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross. Why is it nonsense when all the prophesies said Jesus would fail. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies.

"In Jesus" day, people expected the Messiah to lead a triumphant rebellion against the Romans, restore political independence to Israel, and reign in Jerusalem as a Davidic king.

Jesus didn"t do any of those things.

That is not the reason He came.

That is what your link says.

Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

Yes it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected and crucified. The Romans rejected him and crucified him.

From the perspective of most people of the day, based on their expectations of what the Messiah would do, he looked like a failed political revolutionary."

What they thought He would do.

Before he did anything he was talking about his second coming because he ran out of time to do anything.

From Jesus perspective God failed him.

No, you again are guilty of selective Scriptures.

Those were Jesus's last words.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."


He wanted God to take away the cup he was drinking from because it turned him into an alcoholic.

According to your link from God's perspective Jesus did exactly what he was sent to do.

Yes, He did.

He failed exactly as it was prophesied.

But we know that God did not intend the Gentiles to crucify his son, destroy his temple and destroy the nation of Israel. Jesus gave the reason he was sent by God.

Yes, He did.

So God intended Jesus to fail which Jesus did.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:

Daniel said they would anoint Jesus not reject Jesus.. Read your scriptures.

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


How can you be save if Jesus only saved the generation he was talking to according to Preterism?

He did not only save that generation. All who believe in Him are saved. The wrath prophesied in the OT to an OT people was filled up in that generation.

Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Romans.

What you, Harikrish, write misrepresents Preterism and what I believe can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree to be a correct biblical interpretation. So, I will address it if I want to and on this post for the very reasons I have stated. It just depends on whether I want to take the time to do it. You keep spewing forth this utter garbage showing you are a false teacher who cannot see truth and refuse to come to the truth because you are too proud to turn from your error.

You are struggling to defend Preterism because you are using arguments that have been debunked. Substituting physical with spiritual makes all those prophesies of physical occurances mute because spiritual events cannot be seen and must be imagined.

I'm not struggling to defend it. You keep twisting Scripture. I can and have demonstrated this.

The problem is that you are not accountable for what you write. You can't justify it.

In short substituting the physical with the spiritual leaves it outside the realm of science, history, archeology and even textual criticism and leaves it to the imagination.

I only interpret it as figurative when the text suggests as much. I don't woodenly interpret everything as literal as you claim you do. No one can do that without making a fool of themselves.

We know more about the physical world and have experts dedicated to growing our knowledge. But very little is known about the spiritual world that Jesus spoke about. It is an utopian fantasy. There are no experts in that field and people like you and other Christians are hard pressed to understand the real world you live in and certainly not experts in the spiritual realm.

Thanks for your opinion. I know enough to hold my own.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world at his trial. It had to be a physical kingdom because he was still alive when he was describing his kingdom at his trial. He did not say it was a spiritual kingdom.
PGA
Posts: 5,112
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4/3/2017 4:43:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2017 2:44:41 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/3/2017 12:51:25 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 10:02:45 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/2/2017 4:43:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 2:36:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
Deleted your nonsense on the Pope.

The Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross. Why is it nonsense when all the prophesies said Jesus would fail. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies.

No, he said in the eyes of mankind Jesus was seen as a failure, not in the plans of God.

You continually spout your nonsense that the context of the Pope's statement shows your faulty interpretation. And I have come to realize that I can't reason with you. You are not reasonable. This is futile to discuss this with you (to put it kindly).

"In Jesus" day, people expected the Messiah to lead a triumphant rebellion against the Romans, restore political independence to Israel, and reign in Jerusalem as a Davidic king.

Jesus didn"t do any of those things.

That is not the reason He came.

That is what your link says.

Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

Yes it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected and crucified. The Romans rejected him and crucified him.

Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12....

From the perspective of most people of the day, based on their expectations of what the Messiah would do, he looked like a failed political revolutionary."

What they thought He would do.

Before he did anything he was talking about his second coming because he ran out of time to do anything.

From Jesus perspective God failed him.

No, you again are guilty of selective Scriptures.

Those were Jesus's last words.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."


He wanted God to take away the cup he was drinking from because it turned him into an alcoholic.

According to your link from God's perspective Jesus did exactly what he was sent to do.

Yes, He did.

He failed exactly as it was prophesied.

But we know that God did not intend the Gentiles to crucify his son, destroy his temple and destroy the nation of Israel. Jesus gave the reason he was sent by God.

Yes, He did.

So God intended Jesus to fail which Jesus did.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:

Daniel said they would anoint Jesus not reject Jesus.. Read your scriptures.

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


How can you be save if Jesus only saved the generation he was talking to according to Preterism?

He did not only save that generation. All who believe in Him are saved. The wrath prophesied in the OT to an OT people was filled up in that generation.

Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Romans.

What you, Harikrish, write misrepresents Preterism and what I believe can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree to be a correct biblical interpretation. So, I will address it if I want to and on this post for the very reasons I have stated. It just depends on whether I want to take the time to do it. You keep spewing forth this utter garbage showing you are a false teacher who cannot see truth and refuse to come to the truth because you are too proud to turn from your error.

You are struggling to defend Preterism because you are using arguments that have been debunked. Substituting physical with spiritual makes all those prophesies of physical occurances mute because spiritual events cannot be seen and must be imagined.

I'm not struggling to defend it. You keep twisting Scripture. I can and have demonstrated this.

The problem is that you are not accountable for what you write. You can't justify it.

In short substituting the physical with the spiritual leaves it outside the realm of science, history, archeology and even textual criticism and leaves it to the imagination.

I only interpret it as figurative when the text suggests as much. I don't woodenly interpret everything as literal as you claim you do. No one can do that without making a fool of themselves.

We know more about the physical world and have experts dedicated to growing our knowledge. But very little is known about the spiritual world that Jesus spoke about. It is an utopian fantasy. There are no experts in that field and people like you and other Christians are hard pressed to understand the real world you live in and certainly not experts in the spiritual realm.

Thanks for your opinion. I know enough to hold my own.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world at his trial. It had to be a physical kingdom because he was still alive when he was describing his kingdom at his trial. He did not say it was a spiritual kingdom.

Peter
Harikrish
Posts: 30,065
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4/3/2017 1:36:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2017 4:43:36 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/3/2017 2:44:41 AM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/3/2017 12:51:25 AM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 10:02:45 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/2/2017 4:43:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/2/2017 2:36:28 PM, Harikrish wrote:
Deleted your nonsense on the Pope.

The Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross. Why is it nonsense when all the prophesies said Jesus would fail. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies.

No, he said in the eyes of mankind Jesus was seen as a failure, not in the plans of God.

The plans of God are revealed in prophesies. Prophesies all point to Jesus failing. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies.

You continually spout your nonsense that the context of the Pope's statement shows your faulty interpretation. And I have come to realize that I can't reason with you. You are not reasonable. This is futile to discuss this with you (to put it kindly).

The Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross. The cross is a symbol of the deluded beliefs of a Jewish Rabbi named Jesus who was crucified for his blasphemous claims which explains why Jesus ended in failure and ended on the cross and why the Pope said Jesus was a failure of the cross.

"And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus" and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."

"In Jesus" day, people expected the Messiah to lead a triumphant rebellion against the Romans, restore political independence to Israel, and reign in Jerusalem as a Davidic king.

Jesus didn"t do any of those things.

That is not the reason He came.

That is what your link says.

Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

Yes it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected and crucified. The Romans rejected him and crucified him.

Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12....

From the perspective of most people of the day, based on their expectations of what the Messiah would do, he looked like a failed political revolutionary."

What they thought He would do.

Before he did anything he was talking about his second coming because he ran out of time to do anything.

From Jesus perspective God failed him.

No, you again are guilty of selective Scriptures.

Those were Jesus's last words.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."


He wanted God to take away the cup he was drinking from because it turned him into an alcoholic.

According to your link from God's perspective Jesus did exactly what he was sent to do.

Yes, He did.

He failed exactly as it was prophesied.

But we know that God did not intend the Gentiles to crucify his son, destroy his temple and destroy the nation of Israel. Jesus gave the reason he was sent by God.

Yes, He did.

So God intended Jesus to fail which Jesus did.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:

Daniel said they would anoint Jesus not reject Jesus.. Read your scriptures.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens"[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

But Jesus was cut off by the Roman Prince before he could be anointed.

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


How can you be save if Jesus only saved the generation he was talking to according to Preterism?

He did not only save that generation. All who believe in Him are saved. The wrath prophesied in the OT to an OT people was filled up in that generation.

Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Romans.
Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Jews.

What you, Harikrish, write misrepresents Preterism and what I believe can be demonstrated to a reasonable degree to be a correct biblical interpretation. So, I will address it if I want to and on this post for the very reasons I have stated. It just depends on whether I want to take the time to do it. You keep spewing forth this utter garbage showing you are a false teacher who cannot see truth and refuse to come to the truth because you are too proud to turn from your error.

You are struggling to defend Preterism because you are using arguments that have been debunked. Substituting physical with spiritual makes all those prophesies of physical occurances mute because spiritual events cannot be seen and must be imagined.

I'm not struggling to defend it. You keep twisting Scripture. I can and have demonstrated this.

The problem is that you are not accountable for what you write. You can't justify it.

In short substituting the physical with the spiritual leaves it outside the realm of science, history, archeology and even textual criticism and leaves it to the imagination.

I only interpret it as figurative when the text suggests as much. I don't woodenly interpret everything as literal as you claim you do. No one can do that without making a fool of themselves.

We know more about the physical world and have experts dedicated to growing our knowledge. But very little is known about the spiritual world that Jesus spoke about. It is an utopian fantasy. There are no experts in that field and people like you and other Christians are hard pressed to understand the real world you live in and certainly not experts in the spiritual realm.

Thanks for your opinion. I know enough to hold my own.

Jesus said his kingdom was not of this world at his trial. It had to be a physical kingdom because he was still alive when he was describing his kingdom at his trial. He did not say it was a spiritual kingdom.

Peter
PGA
Posts: 5,112
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4/4/2017 10:47:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/3/2017 1:36:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/3/2017 4:43:36 AM, PGA wrote:
Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

Yes it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected and crucified. The Romans rejected him and crucified him.

The Jews rejected Him. They were the ones who cried "Crucify Him" and asked for Barabbas' release over His. They were the ones who handed Him over to the Romans and falsely charged Him. They were the ones prophesied to reject Him (Zechariah 12:10). The time when this was to happen was during the Roman Empire. Daniel said He was to be cut off (murdered).

Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12....

Again, very dishonest of you. I provided you with three scriptural verses that back up my claims and you ignored all three with your assertions.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:

Daniel said they would anoint Jesus not reject Jesus.. Read your scriptures.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens"[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

The very next verse says:

Daniel 9:26
26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


But Jesus was cut off by the Roman Prince before he could be anointed.

Everything written would be fulfilled within the seventy weeks and it was. Seventy weeks was given this people before the end of their covenant age.

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


How can you be save if Jesus only saved the generation he was talking to according to Preterism?

He did not only save that generation. All who believe in Him are saved. The wrath prophesied in the OT to an OT people was filled up in that generation.

Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Romans.
Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Jews.

He was anointed by God and the anointing in verse 9:24 can be interpreted in two ways, either way fits within the seventy weeks.

Peter
Harikrish
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4/5/2017 1:25:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 4/4/2017 10:47:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/3/2017 1:36:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/3/2017 4:43:36 AM, PGA wrote:
Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

Yes it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected and crucified. The Romans rejected him and crucified him.

The Jews rejected Him. They were the ones who cried "Crucify Him" and asked for Barabbas' release over His. They were the ones who handed Him over to the Romans and falsely charged Him. They were the ones prophesied to reject Him (Zechariah 12:10). The time when this was to happen was during the Roman Empire. Daniel said He was to be cut off (murdered).

The Jews were daring the Romans to crucify their Messiah so the Romans would feel the wrath of God on them. Such was their faith in their God and Messiah. But we know God betrayed Jesus.
Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12....

All those prophesies speak of Jesus failing. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies. Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross.

The Pope said: "And if at times our efforts and works seem to fail and produce no fruit, we need to remember that we are followers of Jesus" and his life, humanly speaking, ended in failure, the failure of the cross."

Again, very dishonest of you. I provided you with three scriptural verses that back up my claims and you ignored all three with your assertions.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:

Jesus hid his identity from the people. They did not know what Jesus till he was publicly mocked, ridiculed and beaten, then crucified.

Matthew 16:20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Daniel said they would anoint Jesus not reject Jesus.. Read your scriptures.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens"[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

The very next verse says:

Daniel 9:26
26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


But Jesus was cut off by the Roman Prince before he could be anointed. That is what Daniel prophesied. Jesus would be cut off by the Prince and the people of the Prince (Romans) would come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. Jesus was crucified by the Romans before the jews could anoint him. The Romans went on to destroy the city and sanctuary.


Everything written would be fulfilled within the seventy weeks and it was. Seventy weeks was given this people before the end of their covenant age.

Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


The Romans fulfilled the prophesies. They pierced Jesus's body.

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Anyone wanting to check this out and see Harikrish in his duplicity please read the following article:

https://www.catholic.com...

This is just another example of how warped and radical Harikrish is in his theology. He is what the Bible labels a fool. He does not comprehend the wisdom of Scripture, the spiritual message.

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ Crucified Is God"s Power and Wisdom ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.


How can you be save if Jesus only saved the generation he was talking to according to Preterism?

He did not only save that generation. All who believe in Him are saved. The wrath prophesied in the OT to an OT people was filled up in that generation.

Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Romans.
Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Jews.

He was anointed by God and the anointing in verse 9:24 can be interpreted in two ways, either way fits within the seventy weeks.

Why don't you read the chronology of events to occur before the anointment of the Most Holy.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens"[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish[d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.[e]

Daniel said visions and prophesies would be sealed off before the anointment of the Most Holy.
That was not fulfilled. Paul saw visions and so did John who even wrote Revelations which was a book of prophesies.

Scriptures tell us when Jesus was asked if he was the king of the Jews. He was silent then replied his kingdom was not of this world. Even Jesus refused to acknowledge he was the king of the Jews or even a king.

Read how Jesus deflected a simple question by Pilate. Here is the Son of God/Messiah/Most Holy refusing to say a simple Yes! to the question Are you the king of the Jews?

John 18:Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"

35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate.

Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

Any wonder Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous claims. The Romans emboldened they dismissed the Son of God so easily went on to destroy his fathers house the Temple and the holy city of Jerusalem.

The Jews lost everything because Jesus lied to them he was their Messiah, but failed to stand up to the Romans who mocked, beat, ridiculed a crucified Jesus.
Jesus felt betrayed by God on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
PGA
Posts: 5,112
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4/6/2017 4:01:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/5/2017 1:25:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/4/2017 10:47:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/3/2017 1:36:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/3/2017 4:43:36 AM, PGA wrote:
Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

Yes it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected and crucified. The Romans rejected him and crucified him.

The Jews rejected Him. They were the ones who cried "Crucify Him" and asked for Barabbas' release over His. They were the ones who handed Him over to the Romans and falsely charged Him. They were the ones prophesied to reject Him (Zechariah 12:10). The time when this was to happen was during the Roman Empire. Daniel said He was to be cut off (murdered).

The Jews were daring the Romans to crucify their Messiah so the Romans would feel the wrath of God on them. Such was their faith in their God and Messiah. But we know God betrayed Jesus.

The Jews were daring the Romans so the Romans would feel the wrath of God??? Where do you come up with this stuff??? Where in the text do you read this? You don't. You just make it up as you go.

God was using the Romans to being judgment upon these people for their disobedience to the covenant:

Deuteronomy 28:15-68
[ Curses for Disobedience ] However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. ...


Why, the very chapter in Daniel that speaks of seventy weeks also speaks of Daniel's plea before God for his people.

Daniel 9
3"So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.
4"I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:
"Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5"we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws. 6"We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes and our ancestors, and to all the people of the land...
9"The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him; 10"we have not obeyed the Lord our God or kept the laws he gave us through his servants the prophets. 11"All Israel has transgressed your law and turned away, refusing to obey you.
"Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. 12"You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing on us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. 13"Just as it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come on us, yet we have not sought the favor of the Lord our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth. 14"The Lord did not hesitate to bring the disaster on us, for the Lord our God is righteous in everything he does; yet we have not obeyed him.


And in verses 24 God gives the people 70 years of sevens before He again brings judgment upon these people.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

And how many times during a post do you repeat this verse? Twice in this post and in about every other post. This just shows the meagerness of your argument.

Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12....

All those prophesies speak of Jesus failing. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies. Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross.

No, they speak of Him doing what was needed in order to restore man to God. In Isaiah 53 it says,

"10"
Yet it was the Lord"s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
""""and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
""""and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11"
After he has suffered,
""""he will see the light of life and be satisfied
;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
""""and he will bear their iniquities.
12"
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
""""and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
""""and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
""""and made intercession for the transgressors.


Even though He gave His life it was prophesied that He would resurrect from the dead and see the light of life. It was God's plan from before the creation of the world.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:

Jesus hid his identity from the people. They did not know what Jesus till he was publicly mocked, ridiculed and beaten, then crucified.

Matthew 16:20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Because the time for this revealing had not yet met its completion.

Daniel said they would anoint Jesus not reject Jesus.. Read your scriptures.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens" are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
The very next verse says:

Daniel 9:26
26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


But Jesus was cut off by the Roman Prince before he could be anointed. That is what Daniel prophesied. Jesus would be cut off by the Prince and the people of the Prince (Romans) would come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. Jesus was crucified by the Romans before the jews could anoint him. The Romans went on to destroy the city and sanctuary.

God anointed Him.

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Matthew 3:16-17
16"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."


God's approval was upon Him at His baptism!

Again and again you make up groundless accusations that are counter to Scripture showing how you continually manipulate it and make it say exactly the opposite of what it says and teaches. That is the sign of a false teacher. My prayer is that God will cut the ground from under you and show others your deceitfulness.

Peter
PGA
Posts: 5,112
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4/6/2017 5:13:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/5/2017 1:25:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/4/2017 10:47:49 PM, PGA wrote:
Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


The Romans fulfilled the prophesies. They pierced Jesus's body.

Again, you twist Scripture to your purposes, and you have this in common with all cults and false teachers.

Zechariah 12:10 above identifies who are the ones who pierce Jesus. I underlined the significant identifiers above. You are incapable of reading the passage without reading all kinds of things into it that it does not disclose. The passage is speaking to "the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" and continually goes back to this subject matter in the use of the term "they."

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

The Jews used the Romans to bring about the piercing and crucifixion of Jesus. They handed Him over to be crucified. They were responsible. They could have released Him over Barabbas. They handed over an innocent man.

Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Romans.
Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Jews.

He was anointed by God and the anointing in verse 9:24 can be interpreted in two ways, either way fits within the seventy weeks.

Why don't you read the chronology of events to occur before the anointment of the Most Holy.

Verse 24 speaks of the Most Holy Place. Some translations have taken this to be either Most Holy Place or Most Holy One. Either way, His anointing happens within the seventy weeks.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens" are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Daniel said visions and prophesies would be sealed off before the anointment of the Most Holy.

Seventy weeks to, and, and,...

That was not fulfilled. Paul saw visions and so did John who even wrote Revelations which was a book of prophesies.

Revelation is the prophetic judgment and curses spoken of in Deuteronomy 28 concerning these OT people. Everything was fulfilled by A.D. 70. Again, I offered to debate you on this issue and you put your tail between your legs and ran.

Scriptures tell us when Jesus was asked if he was the king of the Jews. He was silent then replied his kingdom was not of this world. Even Jesus refused to acknowledge he was the king of the Jews or even a king.

He acknowledged it many times during His ministry, even giving hint of it in the passage you speak of.

Matthew 27:11
[ Jesus Before Pilate ] Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "You have said so," Jesus replied.


Read how Jesus deflected a simple question by Pilate. Here is the Son of God/Messiah/Most Holy refusing to say a simple Yes! to the question Are you the king of the Jews?

Jesus did not deny it, He put the onus back on Pilate.

John 18:Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"

35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

True, the kingdom that the OT conditionally pointed to and was not understood by these OT people for the most part.

37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate.

Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

Here Jesus agrees with Pilate. He says for this reason, being king, He came into the world. Everyone on the side of truth listens to Him!

Again, you twist this truth to suit your warped worldview position. Any fool can understand that He did not deny being King, in fact, Pilate put on the cross the sign, "King of the Jews."

Over and over in the NT it is revealed that the people understood Jesus to be their king and He never denied it"

Over and over you mangle Scripture and commit eisegesis because it seems you are incapable of proper hermeneutics.

https://www.biblegateway.com...

Any wonder Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous claims. The Romans emboldened they dismissed the Son of God so easily went on to destroy his fathers house the Temple and the holy city of Jerusalem.

He wasn't blaspheming, you are. You falsely teach the opposite of Scripture. To detail all your false claims would take one hell of a long time.

The Jews lost everything because Jesus lied to them he was their Messiah, but failed to stand up to the Romans who mocked, beat, ridiculed a crucified Jesus.
Jesus felt betrayed by God on the cross.

The OT reveals both a conquering king and a suffering servant. Both you and the Jews of that time and today fail to separate the distinctions.

Peter
Harikrish
Posts: 30,065
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4/6/2017 5:37:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/6/2017 4:01:45 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/5/2017 1:25:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/4/2017 10:47:49 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/3/2017 1:36:04 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/3/2017 4:43:36 AM, PGA wrote:
Instead, the Romans killed him, and they did so in a particularly painful and humiliating way. His followers were scattered and took to meeting in secret after his crucifixion.

As prophesied.

Yes it was prophesied Jesus would be rejected and crucified. The Romans rejected him and crucified him.

The Jews rejected Him. They were the ones who cried "Crucify Him" and asked for Barabbas' release over His. They were the ones who handed Him over to the Romans and falsely charged Him. They were the ones prophesied to reject Him (Zechariah 12:10). The time when this was to happen was during the Roman Empire. Daniel said He was to be cut off (murdered).

The Jews were daring the Romans to crucify their Messiah so the Romans would feel the wrath of God on them. Such was their faith in their God and Messiah. But we know God betrayed Jesus.

The Jews were daring the Romans so the Romans would feel the wrath of God??? Where do you come up with this stuff??? Where in the text do you read this? You don't. You just make it up as you go.

The people shouted crucify him! to the Romans daring them to kill their messiah and suffer the consequences.

Luke 23:21 But they kept shouting, "Crucify him! Crucify him!" -

God was using the Romans to being judgment upon these people for their disobedience to the covenant:

Deuteronomy 28:15-68
[ Curses for Disobedience ] However, if you do not obey the Lord your God and do not carefully follow all his commands and decrees I am giving you today, all these curses will come on you and overtake you: You will be cursed in the city and cursed in the country. Your basket and your kneading trough will be cursed. ...


That cures were put on a generation in 1446 BC. They were all dead before Jesus arrived. You are getting your timelines confused. The Jews were prepared to accept Jesu. They even shouted Hosanna to welcome Jesus

John 12:13 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the king of Israel!"

Why, the very chapter in Daniel that speaks of seventy weeks also speaks of Daniel's plea before God for his people.

Daniel 9
3"So I turned to the Lord God and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes.
4"I prayed to the Lord my God and confessed:
"Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps his covenant of love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5"we have sinned and done wrong. We have been wicked and have rebelled; we have turned away from your commands and laws.

That is why Daniel gave the Jews 6 conditions to meet before God would sent the Messiah. All conditions were met and Jesus arrived. But Jesus was cut off by the Roman Prince before he could be anointed by the Jews.

And in verses 24 God gives the people 70 years of sevens before He again brings judgment upon these people.

Daniel said the Prince would cut off Jesus and the rulers people would destroy Jerusalem and the sanctuary. According to Daniel Jesus was doomed to fail. Jesus failed exactly as Daniel prophesied.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12....

All those prophesies speak of Jesus failing. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies. Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross.

No, they speak of Him doing what was needed in order to restore man to God. In Isaiah 53 it says,

Jesus did everything so he would fail and by his failure fulfill the prophesies. Even the Pope declared Jesus was a failure of the cross.

Even though He gave His life it was prophesied that He would resurrect from the dead and see the light of life. It was God's plan from before the creation of the world.

His resurrection had no significance. The Romans reigned supreme. The Roman Catholic Church replaced the temple and the pagans won.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

The Romans ignored Jesus and crucified him.
True, they had to reject Him first, per Scripture:
Jesus hid his identity from the people. They did not know what Jesus was till he was publicly mocked, ridiculed and beaten, then crucified. After that loser came to mind.

Matthew 16:20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Because the time for this revealing had not yet met its completion.

Daniel said they would anoint Jesus not reject Jesus.. Read your scriptures.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens" are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
The very next verse says:

Daniel 9:26
26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.


But Jesus was cut off by the Roman Prince before he could be anointed. That is what Daniel prophesied. Jesus would be cut off by the Prince and the people of the Prince (Romans) would come and destroy the city and the sanctuary. Jesus was crucified by the Romans before the jews could anoint him. The Romans went on to destroy the city and sanctuary.

God anointed Him.

Luke 4:18
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,

Luke was not a disciple of Jesus. What he wrote was hearsay.

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Luke was not a disciple of Jesus. What he wrote was hearsay.

Matthew 3:16-17
16"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."


Matthew was not yet a disciple of Jesus when John baptized Jesus. So this is not an eyewitness account by Matthew, but pure hearsay.

God's approval was upon Him at His baptism!

God picked Jesus to fail. Jesus failed. Jesus even blamed God for betraying him.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

Again and again you make up groundless accusations that are counter to Scripture showing how you continually manipulate it and make it say exactly the opposite of what it says and teaches. That is the sign of a false teacher.

You will not accept that Jesus failed even though it was prophesied that Jesus would fail. Jesus failed and by failing fulfilled the prophesies. Don't listen to me, listen to the Pope. The Pope declare Jesus was a failure of the cross. The world heard the Pope.
Harikrish
Posts: 30,065
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4/6/2017 7:09:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/6/2017 5:13:54 PM, PGA wrote:
At 4/5/2017 1:25:08 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 4/4/2017 10:47:49 PM, PGA wrote:
Zechariah 12:10
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10""And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.


The Romans fulfilled the prophesies. They pierced Jesus's body.

Again, you twist Scripture to your purposes, and you have this in common with all cults and false teachers.

It says in the scriptures the Romans pierced Jesus's body..
John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Zechariah 12:10 above identifies who are the ones who pierce Jesus. I underlined the significant identifiers above. You are incapable of reading the passage without reading all kinds of things into it that it does not disclose. The passage is speaking to "the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem" and continually goes back to this subject matter in the use of the term "they."

But the Roman who piece Jesus's body were not from the house of David, they were Romans.

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

The Jews used the Romans to bring about the piercing and crucifixion of Jesus. They handed Him over to be crucified. They were responsible. They could have released Him over Barabbas. They handed over an innocent man.

You are confused. The Romans ruled over the Jews. Jesus was tried by Romans. The Jews had no authority to try anyone. Read your scriptures.

John 18:31 So Pilate said to them, "Take Him yourselves, and judge Him according to your law." The Jews said to him, "We are not permitted to put anyone to death,"

Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Romans.
Jesus was cut off before he could be anointed by the Jews.

He was anointed by God and the anointing in verse 9:24 can be interpreted in two ways, either way fits within the seventy weeks.

Why don't you read the chronology of events to occur before the anointment of the Most Holy.

Verse 24 speaks of the Most Holy Place. Some translations have taken this to be either Most Holy Place or Most Holy One. Either way, His anointing happens within the seventy weeks.

Daniel 9:24 "Seventy "sevens" are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Daniel said visions and prophesies would be sealed off before the anointment of the Most Holy.

Seventy weeks to, and, and,...

That was not fulfilled. Paul saw visions and so did John who even wrote Revelations which was a book of prophesies.

Revelation is the prophetic judgment and curses spoken of in Deuteronomy 28 concerning these OT people. Everything was fulfilled by A.D. 70. Again, I offered to debate you on this issue and you put your tail between your legs and ran.

You are confused. You are quoting Moses (Deuteronomy 28) when the scriptures point to the great success the Jews had after Moses and under Joshua who came after Moses. God promised the jews great properity if they followed the Lord (Deuteronomy 30) .

Scriptures tell us when Jesus was asked if he was the king of the Jews. He was silent then replied his kingdom was not of this world. Even Jesus refused to acknowledge he was the king of the Jews or even a king.

He acknowledged it many times during His ministry, even giving hint of it in the passage you speak of.

Matthew 27:11
[ Jesus Before Pilate ] Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "You have said so," Jesus replied.


Read how Jesus deflected a simple question by Pilate. Here is the Son of God/Messiah/Most Holy refusing to say a simple Yes! to the question Are you the king of the Jews?

Jesus did not deny it, He put the onus back on Pilate.

By not acknowledging he was king with a simple YES!! Jesus created room for doubt and that got him crucified.

John 18:Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

34 "Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"

35 "Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "Your own people and chief priests handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

True, the kingdom that the OT conditionally pointed to and was not understood by these OT people for the most part.

Why tell them things they did not understand. He was on trial about to be sentenced to death. His deception failed. Jesus was mocked, beaten, ridiculed and crucified for his blasphemous claims.
37 "You are a king, then!" said Pilate.

Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

Here Jesus agrees with Pilate. He says for this reason, being king, He came into the world. Everyone on the side of truth listens to Him!

Jesus said he said was born and came into the world to testify to the truth. Pilate scoffed and said What is truth? He obviously did not take Jesus answer as Yes! He was king and crucified him.

Again, you twist this truth to suit your warped worldview position. Any fool can understand that He did not deny being King, in fact, Pilate put on the cross the sign, "King of the Jews."

That was done to mock Jesus. Even the Jew protested.

Matthew 27:29 and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. "Hail, king of the Jews!" they said.

Over and over in the NT it is revealed that the people understood Jesus to be their king and He never denied it"

So you now accept it was the Romans who cut off Jesus not the Jews. The Jews accepted jesus as their Messiah and was expecting Jesus to retaliate against the Romans. But when they saw Jesus allow himself to be mocked, beaten and ridiculed by the Romans, they could no longer believe his claims.


Any wonder Jesus was crucified for his blasphemous claims. The Romans emboldened they dismissed the Son of God so easily went on to destroy his fathers house the Temple and the holy city of Jerusalem.

He wasn't blaspheming, you are. You falsely teach the opposite of Scripture. To detail all your false claims would take one hell of a long time.

The Jews lost everything because Jesus lied to them he was their Messiah, but failed to stand up to the Romans who mocked, beat, ridiculed and crucified Jesus.

Even Jesus felt betrayed by God on the cross.

Matthew 27:46 About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").

The OT reveals both a conquering king and a suffering servant. Both you and the Jews of that time and today fail to separate the distinctions.

The Jews saw Jesus as a blasphemous liar mocked, beaten, ridiculed and crucified by the Romans.

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