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Agnostic-Theism revisted

Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.
keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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3/26/2017 11:31:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Or just maybe the way that matter and energy inter-reacts and self-organises iteself via natural processes is more complicated and subtle than it might appear.
Hiu
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3/26/2017 11:33:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2017 11:31:24 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Or just maybe the way that matter and energy inter-reacts and self-organises iteself via natural processes is more complicated and subtle than it might appear.

What does that have to do with the philosophical belief of God via Agnostic-Theism?
keithprosser
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3/26/2017 11:43:12 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2017 11:33:59 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:31:24 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Or just maybe the way that matter and energy inter-reacts and self-organises iteself via natural processes is more complicated and subtle than it might appear.

What does that have to do with the philosophical belief of God via Agnostic-Theism?

My mistake - I should have quoted " there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe."

I was expressing my version of atheism, that's all.

As I see it what you describe is not agnosticism but straight-up theism. You seem in little doubt that there is a god - you seem to doubt only that the mainstream religions have got it right.
Hiu
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3/27/2017 12:58:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2017 11:43:12 PM, keithprosser wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:33:59 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:31:24 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Or just maybe the way that matter and energy inter-reacts and self-organises iteself via natural processes is more complicated and subtle than it might appear.

What does that have to do with the philosophical belief of God via Agnostic-Theism?

My mistake - I should have quoted " there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe."

I was expressing my version of atheism, that's all.

As I see it what you describe is not agnosticism but straight-up theism. You seem in little doubt that there is a god - you seem to doubt only that the mainstream religions have got it right.

Of course it is theism however I have no definition as to the properties of God. For example, I do not know if God is personal or impersonal.

"After all, even though a person might claim to know for sure that their god exists, that doesn"t mean that they can also claim to know everything there is to know about their god. Indeed, a great many things about this god may be hidden from the believer " how many Christians have stated that their god "works in mysterious ways"? If we allow the definition of agnosticism to become rather broad and include a lack of knowledge about a god, then this is a sort of situation where agnosticism is playing a role in someone"s theism. It is not, however, an example of agnostic theism."

Source:https://www.thoughtco.com...
Stronn
Posts: 683
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3/27/2017 1:05:24 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.

I would call your belief deism.
Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/27/2017 1:14:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 1:05:24 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.

I would call your belief deism.

You may be right, however as someone who works in the medical field I've seen things and experience things myself that maybe God may be personal in times where situations are out of the human beings control. However, I've seen things where I would assume a divine being would intervene but does not.
Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/27/2017 1:31:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Let me rephrase some points regarding agnostic-theism from my perspective since I think I may be throwing some individuals off. When I refer to my own agnostic-theism, I"m referring to the philosophical (and perhaps spiritual) believe in the existence of God. When referencing God, I"m referring to a "higher power" a designer, a force that exists that is incomprehensible. Now, I"m sure critics would state "if such a deity is incomprehensible, then how does one know that such a deity exists?" That would be a fair question and I think this where we get into the realm of faith. Perhaps I believe in a singular causality to which all things emanate from. But when referring to God, I cannot explain nor confirm any and all "properties" of God although I contradicted this notion by affirming that "God sees all." I take upon the philosophical principle of Averroes to which he stated that all things emanate from the divine and I think since all living things come from divine providence, perhaps within all living and non-living things perhaps God sees through them. Then again when I say see I"m not referring to actual sight but knowledge of things if this makes sense. Now with respect to interfering in the affairs of humans that is where I"m conflicted because I"m not sure whether God is personal or impersonal. The logical side of me thinks God allows nature to take its course and not interfere (although he/she/it could) such as saving my mother from cancer. The spiritual side of me which has seem some things says that in times where things are out of a human beings control God does intervene. The thing is I do not know which is where my agnosticism lies.
Ludofl3x
Posts: 2,283
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3/27/2017 12:15:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 1:14:58 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/27/2017 1:05:24 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.

I would call your belief deism.

You may be right, however as someone who works in the medical field I've seen things and experience things myself that maybe God may be personal in times where situations are out of the human beings control. However, I've seen things where I would assume a divine being would intervene but does not.

Why are believers always so precious with these "things" and "personal experiences" whenever they bring them up? Like "I understand god because I've seen some things, man!" If they were so convincing and so certainly divine, why not share the specifics? I know you'd be risking having those things torn down in front of you, but if they were truly divinity, wouldn't they be impervious?
NHN
Posts: 1,219
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3/27/2017 1:17:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable.
Your agnostic position is representative of the realist's perspective. That is, there is a reality beyond our senses as well as beyond our capacity for thought. This reality is unattainable and unrelated to us, yet unfolds in the phenomenal world and lingers as a potentiality.

For the same reason, the most objectionable position for any realist is that of gnosticism, of claiming knowledge of the seat of the divine or the Real rather than investigating the path. We can develop spiritual techniques--from meditation to lucid dreaming to tantric exercises--which toggle and enrich our sensations, the causes of which will remain radically unknown in their essence.

When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God.
In Islam, God is creator and principle of Oneness and the All, as well as the driving force of history. With this in mind, it regards a metaphysics close to the materialism of Newton or the correlationism of Hume, depending on how far one goes to reject the illusion of semblance and multitude.

But that would be the secular interpretation. Because, as in Judaism, submission to God--following not the spirit of the law but by the letter--is the fundamental act of faith. Christians, by contrast, possess a fragmented and decentered conception of God, faith, and history--with love as the guiding principle (Galatians 5:14).

I go into some detail as to what separates Christianity from the other Abrahamic faiths in this post (http://www.debate.org...).
I am fascinated by the idea that our civilization is like a thin layer of ice upon a deep ocean of chaos and darkness.
--Werner Herzog
PureX
Posts: 4,075
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3/27/2017 8:34:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2017 11:31:24 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Or just maybe the way that matter and energy inter-reacts and self-organises iteself via natural processes is more complicated and subtle than it might appear.

The metaphysical questions regarding those "natural processes" will still remain, regardless of their complexity. And I suspect that complexity, itself, is a somewhat illusory characteristic, in that the closer we look into the phenomena of existence, the more complexity it will present to us. The questions about why these processes are as they are, and what they intend for us, remain, however. And how should we respond to them?

What I find particularly fascinating is that how we respond to these unanswerable questions defines who we are, and who we are becoming. We are creating ourselves through our own ignorance, and how we react to it: with religious dogmas, anti-religious dogmas, passive agnosticism, aggressive agnosticism, whatever. Whatever response we choose, we are defining ourselves through our choices.

Our ignorance becomes an amazing creative opportunity. And most of us never even see it.
Outplayz
Posts: 3,398
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3/27/2017 8:47:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.

I gave a little name to my belief, Agnospirism. Basically it combines Agnostic, Atheist, and Spiritual. Agnostic bc i can't know for sure or am not 100% certain of anything in regards to my supernatural belief, Atheist because i am certain no one religion has the truth, and spiritual bc i don't think a higher intelligence(s) has been discounted or disproved to a level not to believe it is a possibility. I am actually more certain then not some kind of "spiritual" realm or situation exists.

Now that you know where i stand... my question to you and your belief, why "one" god? And why is this one god an observer of what we do? I ask bc there are reason why i don't think there is just "one" god.
"For me, insanity is super sanity. The normal is psychotic. Normal means lack of imagination, lack of creativity." --- Jean Dubuffet
Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/27/2017 11:55:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 12:15:17 PM, Ludofl3x wrote:
At 3/27/2017 1:14:58 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/27/2017 1:05:24 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.

I would call your belief deism.

You may be right, however as someone who works in the medical field I've seen things and experience things myself that maybe God may be personal in times where situations are out of the human beings control. However, I've seen things where I would assume a divine being would intervene but does not.

Why are believers always so precious with these "things" and "personal experiences" whenever they bring them up? Like "I understand god because I've seen some things, man!" If they were so convincing and so certainly divine, why not share the specifics? I know you'd be risking having those things torn down in front of you, but if they were truly divinity, wouldn't they be impervious?

I'm sorry if I used the wrong vernacular for your particular liking but unless you work in emergency medicine, I would hardly think you'd understand where I'm coming from.
Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/28/2017 12:02:08 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 1:17:46 PM, NHN wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable.
Your agnostic position is representative of the realist's perspective. That is, there is a reality beyond our senses as well as beyond our capacity for thought. This reality is unattainable and unrelated to us, yet unfolds in the phenomenal world and lingers as a potentiality.

For the same reason, the most objectionable position for any realist is that of gnosticism, of claiming knowledge of the seat of the divine or the Real rather than investigating the path. We can develop spiritual techniques--from meditation to lucid dreaming to tantric exercises--which toggle and enrich our sensations, the causes of which will remain radically unknown in their essence.

When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God.
In Islam, God is creator and principle of Oneness and the All, as well as the driving force of history. With this in mind, it regards a metaphysics close to the materialism of Newton or the correlationism of Hume, depending on how far one goes to reject the illusion of semblance and multitude.

But that would be the secular interpretation. Because, as in Judaism, submission to God--following not the spirit of the law but by the letter--is the fundamental act of faith. Christians, by contrast, possess a fragmented and decentered conception of God, faith, and history--with love as the guiding principle (Galatians 5:14).

I go into some detail as to what separates Christianity from the other Abrahamic faiths in this post (http://www.debate.org...).

I think you have my belief in a nutshell in this post. I believe the agnostic's position regarding God is we do not know what lies beyond the senses except that which what we have already--these senses. I do not know whether God is personal or impersonal, but I do know I experience and see things with my senses and part of me believes that he is, but a part of me believes that he isn't. But with respect to your understanding of Islamic theology, you are correct.
Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/28/2017 12:11:36 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 8:47:19 PM, Outplayz wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.

I gave a little name to my belief, Agnospirism. Basically it combines Agnostic, Atheist, and Spiritual. Agnostic bc i can't know for sure or am not 100% certain of anything in regards to my supernatural belief, Atheist because i am certain no one religion has the truth, and spiritual bc i don't think a higher intelligence(s) has been discounted or disproved to a level not to believe it is a possibility. I am actually more certain then not some kind of "spiritual" realm or situation exists.

Now that you know where i stand... my question to you and your belief, why "one" god? And why is this one god an observer of what we do? I ask bc there are reason why i don't think there is just "one" god.

Very good question! Averroes once said (and I imperfectly quote):

"If there were several kings/queens with different minds and they were all sovereign, there would be eventual conflict among them."

Of course that is the medieval idea of why one would reject polytheism, but from my vantage point I believe there is one causation that sparked a multitude of causes. I guess you can say the "unmoved mover" of sorts. Now, one could argue that there could be several gods that act in unison but then one could also argue how do we differentiate the several from the one if that would be the case? Perhaps you can take my words on faith that there is one mind, one overseer, one intellect that inspires all that exists.
Ludofl3x
Posts: 2,283
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3/28/2017 12:43:21 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/27/2017 11:55:51 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/27/2017 12:15:17 PM, Ludofl3x wrote:
At 3/27/2017 1:14:58 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/27/2017 1:05:24 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/26/2017 11:16:32 PM, Hiu wrote:
I think some of you may know that I made a post some months back regarding me considering myself as an agnostic-theist. for some that does not know what agnostic-theism is, it is the philosophical belief that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. "An agnostic theist believes in the existence of a god or God, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable." I affirm that the properties of God are unknowable, although my philosophical belief leads me to believe in one higher ruler, I find such properties of God as unknowable. When it comes to certain metaphysical principles, I am somewhat in love with some Islamic ideas concerning God. For example for the agnostic-theist we can affirm the following verse which I believe to be true:

In the name of God, the most merciful, the compassionate

Surah 6:103

"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

I take this particular verse as an accumulation of what I believe to what God is, something I cannot comprehend although I believe there is "something" that exist that is above us all and that sees all in the entire universe. I do not think any scripture, not even the Qur'an, Bible, Torah, Bhagavad Gita nor any human text that can correctly contain divine truth as I believe any truth that comes from divine providence cannot be contained by any human language. This is why I refuse to discount any truths that any religion on earth has to say about humanity because I think all perceptions of truth are subjective to those who espouse them. The similitude of this is like a baby perceiving the world in relation to itself and interacting with the world in accordance to the little knowledge it has.

I would call your belief deism.

You may be right, however as someone who works in the medical field I've seen things and experience things myself that maybe God may be personal in times where situations are out of the human beings control. However, I've seen things where I would assume a divine being would intervene but does not.

Why are believers always so precious with these "things" and "personal experiences" whenever they bring them up? Like "I understand god because I've seen some things, man!" If they were so convincing and so certainly divine, why not share the specifics? I know you'd be risking having those things torn down in front of you, but if they were truly divinity, wouldn't they be impervious?

I'm sorry if I used the wrong vernacular for your particular liking but unless you work in emergency medicine, I would hardly think you'd understand where I'm coming from.

Try us.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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3/28/2017 5:39:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2017 12:11:36 AM, Hiu wrote:
"If there were several kings/queens with different minds and they were all sovereign, there would be eventual conflict among them."
But these gods are not kings and queens, why couldn't the all powerful creator of all be whatever s/he is?
I understand that humans created all gods and that is why humans must continually attempt to define them, to make them fit into the box the human has need that they fit.The problem with that is that it simply proves that they only exist in the imagination of humans.
Hiu
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3/28/2017 7:00:03 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2017 5:39:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 12:11:36 AM, Hiu wrote:
"If there were several kings/queens with different minds and they were all sovereign, there would be eventual conflict among them."
But these gods are not kings and queens, why couldn't the all powerful creator of all be whatever s/he is?
I understand that humans created all gods and that is why humans must continually attempt to define them, to make them fit into the box the human has need that they fit.The problem with that is that it simply proves that they only exist in the imagination of humans.

Well, given that Averroes lived in a time of feudalism so that is how he verbalized his analogy. With respect to creating gods/goddesses I ask, who inspired mankind to create such intricate and complex deities and stories to go along with them? If you look at the Qur'an concerning embryology I find that to be scientifically extraordinary for its time considering the desert people weren't scientifically advanced.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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3/28/2017 7:05:33 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2017 7:00:03 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/28/2017 5:39:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 12:11:36 AM, Hiu wrote:
"If there were several kings/queens with different minds and they were all sovereign, there would be eventual conflict among them."
But these gods are not kings and queens, why couldn't the all powerful creator of all be whatever s/he is?
I understand that humans created all gods and that is why humans must continually attempt to define them, to make them fit into the box the human has need that they fit.The problem with that is that it simply proves that they only exist in the imagination of humans.

Well, given that Averroes lived in a time of feudalism so that is how he verbalized his analogy. With respect to creating gods/goddesses I ask, who inspired mankind to create such intricate and complex deities and stories to go along with them? If you look at the Qur'an concerning embryology I find that to be scientifically extraordinary for its time considering the desert people weren't scientifically advanced.
You are easily impressed, wait till you see Dr Who.
Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/28/2017 11:49:58 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2017 7:05:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 7:00:03 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/28/2017 5:39:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 12:11:36 AM, Hiu wrote:
"If there were several kings/queens with different minds and they were all sovereign, there would be eventual conflict among them."
But these gods are not kings and queens, why couldn't the all powerful creator of all be whatever s/he is?
I understand that humans created all gods and that is why humans must continually attempt to define them, to make them fit into the box the human has need that they fit.The problem with that is that it simply proves that they only exist in the imagination of humans.

Well, given that Averroes lived in a time of feudalism so that is how he verbalized his analogy. With respect to creating gods/goddesses I ask, who inspired mankind to create such intricate and complex deities and stories to go along with them? If you look at the Qur'an concerning embryology I find that to be scientifically extraordinary for its time considering the desert people weren't scientifically advanced.
You are easily impressed, wait till you see Dr Who.

I'm not easily impressed but its not really proof that gods/goddesses are the result of human imagination. I know perhaps an elaboration that seems grandiose, would make one think that it is of the imagination but I find believing in God hardly the result of my own mind, at least I think so.
bulproof
Posts: 36,669
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3/29/2017 12:41:50 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/28/2017 11:49:58 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/28/2017 7:05:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 7:00:03 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/28/2017 5:39:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 12:11:36 AM, Hiu wrote:
"If there were several kings/queens with different minds and they were all sovereign, there would be eventual conflict among them."
But these gods are not kings and queens, why couldn't the all powerful creator of all be whatever s/he is?
I understand that humans created all gods and that is why humans must continually attempt to define them, to make them fit into the box the human has need that they fit.The problem with that is that it simply proves that they only exist in the imagination of humans.

Well, given that Averroes lived in a time of feudalism so that is how he verbalized his analogy. With respect to creating gods/goddesses I ask, who inspired mankind to create such intricate and complex deities and stories to go along with them? If you look at the Qur'an concerning embryology I find that to be scientifically extraordinary for its time considering the desert people weren't scientifically advanced.
You are easily impressed, wait till you see Dr Who.


I'm not easily impressed but its not really proof that gods/goddesses are the result of human imagination. I know perhaps an elaboration that seems grandiose, would make one think that it is of the imagination but I find believing in God hardly the result of my own mind, at least I think so.
So are you like the madman and use god's mind to do your thinking? If not who's mind do you use?
Hiu
Posts: 1,610
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3/29/2017 12:58:28 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 3/29/2017 12:41:50 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 11:49:58 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/28/2017 7:05:33 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 7:00:03 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 3/28/2017 5:39:39 AM, bulproof wrote:
At 3/28/2017 12:11:36 AM, Hiu wrote:
"If there were several kings/queens with different minds and they were all sovereign, there would be eventual conflict among them."
But these gods are not kings and queens, why couldn't the all powerful creator of all be whatever s/he is?
I understand that humans created all gods and that is why humans must continually attempt to define them, to make them fit into the box the human has need that they fit.The problem with that is that it simply proves that they only exist in the imagination of humans.

Well, given that Averroes lived in a time of feudalism so that is how he verbalized his analogy. With respect to creating gods/goddesses I ask, who inspired mankind to create such intricate and complex deities and stories to go along with them? If you look at the Qur'an concerning embryology I find that to be scientifically extraordinary for its time considering the desert people weren't scientifically advanced.
You are easily impressed, wait till you see Dr Who.


I'm not easily impressed but its not really proof that gods/goddesses are the result of human imagination. I know perhaps an elaboration that seems grandiose, would make one think that it is of the imagination but I find believing in God hardly the result of my own mind, at least I think so.
So are you like the madman and use god's mind to do your thinking? If not who's mind do you use?

huh? Pretend I am 8 years-old and explain this again

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