Total Posts:52|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Watson and Crick Were Thieves

royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 9:40:37 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Rosalind Elsie Franklin (25 July 1920 – 16 April 1958)[1] was a British biophysicist and X-ray crystallographer who made critical contributions to the understanding of the fine molecular structures of DNA, RNA, viruses, coal and graphite.[2] The DNA work achieved the most fame because DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) plays essential roles in cell metabolism and genetics, and the discovery of its structure helped scientists understand how genetic information is passed from parents to children.

Franklin is best known for her work on the X-ray diffraction images of DNA which led to discovery of DNA double helix. Her data, according to Francis Crick, was "the data we actually used"[3] to formulate Crick and Watson's 1953 hypothesis regarding the structure of DNA.[4] Franklin's X-ray diffraction images confirming the helical structure of DNA were shown to Watson without her approval or knowledge. Though this image and her accurate interpretation of the data provided valuable insight into the DNA structure, Franklin's scientific contributions to the discovery of the double helix are often overlooked. Unpublished drafts of her papers (written just as she was arranging to leave King's College London) show that she had independently determined the overall B-form of the DNA helix and the location of the phosphate groups on the outside of the structure. However, her work was published third, in the series of three DNA Nature articles, led by the paper of Watson and Crick which only hinted at her contribution to their hypothesis.[5]


Although during their years in Randall's laboratory at King's College Rosalind Franklin and Maurice Wilkins often behaved like enemies, twelve years after Franklin's death Wilkins in effect apologized for passing on her photographs and data to Watson without her permission: 24

It [the DNA research] was all here [at King's]. They [Watson and Crick] were working at Cambridge along certain lines, and we were working along certain lines [at King's]. It was a question of time. They could not have gone on to their model, their correct model, without the data [Rosalind] developed here. They had that—I blame myself, I was naïve—and they moved ahead.79

Unfortunately for Franklin, she never lived to hear his words of regret. But Wilkins' words support the objective argument that he was wrong to secretly take Rosalind Franklin's work, that James Watson was wrong to encourage and benefit from the unauthorized taking, and that at the very least Watson and Wilkins should have properly credited Franklin's part in the discovery of the structure of the DNA molecule.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 9:45:25 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
The best part is that they explicitly went behind her back to steal her data. They knew that she had solved the problem and they asked her if she wanted to collaborate (i.e. give them her data), and she refused. Watson went and whined to Wilkins, who stole her work and gave it to the people who went on to wrongfully win the Nobel Prize.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 12:02:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 11:07:30 AM, Maikuru wrote:
This is fairly common knowledge.

^
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 12:18:35 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 11:07:30 AM, Maikuru wrote:
This is fairly common knowledge.

It was not taught at my high school . . .

Shame on them for accepting the Nobel Prize.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 12:22:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 12:18:35 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/24/2012 11:07:30 AM, Maikuru wrote:
This is fairly common knowledge.

It was not taught at my high school . . .

Shame on them for accepting the Nobel Prize.

My science teacher went on a rant about how women are misrepresented in science and how Watson and Crick were as$holes.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
Frederick53
Posts: 1,037
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 12:56:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 12:22:39 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/24/2012 12:18:35 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/24/2012 11:07:30 AM, Maikuru wrote:
This is fairly common knowledge.

It was not taught at my high school . . .

Shame on them for accepting the Nobel Prize.

My science teacher went on a rant about how women are misrepresented in science and how Watson and Crick were as$holes.

So did mine, which was surprising because he was a hardcore conservative. He usually ranted about the nonexistence of global warming and how animal rights organizations were stupid.

He was an awesome teacher though.
In 1975, the Second Vietnam War began -1Historygenius

Like no wonder that indian dude rejected you.- Darkkermit to royalpaladin

Social Darwinism is a justification- 1Historygenius

Equal opportunity exists, so there is no problem- EvanK
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 3:51:08 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 9:40:37 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
Rosalind Elsie Franklin (25 July 1920 – 16 April 1958)[1] was a British biophysicist and X-ray crystallographer who made critical contributions to the understanding of the fine molecular structures of DNA, RNA, viruses, coal and graphite.[2] The DNA work achieved the most fame because DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid) plays essential roles in cell metabolism and genetics, and the discovery of its structure helped scientists understand how genetic information is passed from parents to children.

Franklin is best known for her work on the X-ray diffraction images of DNA which led to discovery of DNA double helix. Her data, according to Francis Crick, was "the data we actually used"[3] to formulate Crick and Watson's 1953 hypothesis regarding the structure of DNA.[4] Franklin's X-ray diffraction images confirming the helical structure of DNA were shown to Watson without her approval or knowledge. Though this image and her accurate interpretation of the data provided valuable insight into the DNA structure, Franklin's scientific contributions to the discovery of the double helix are often overlooked. Unpublished drafts of her papers (written just as she was arranging to leave King's College London) show that she had independently determined the overall B-form of the DNA helix and the location of the phosphate groups on the outside of the structure. However, her work was published third, in the series of three DNA Nature articles, led by the paper of Watson and Crick which only hinted at her contribution to their hypothesis.[5]


Although during their years in Randall's laboratory at King's College Rosalind Franklin and Maurice Wilkins often behaved like enemies, twelve years after Franklin's death Wilkins in effect apologized for passing on her photographs and data to Watson without her permission: 24

It [the DNA research] was all here [at King's]. They [Watson and Crick] were working at Cambridge along certain lines, and we were working along certain lines [at King's]. It was a question of time. They could not have gone on to their model, their correct model, without the data [Rosalind] developed here. They had that—I blame myself, I was naïve—and they moved ahead.79


Unfortunately for Franklin, she never lived to hear his words of regret. But Wilkins' words support the objective argument that he was wrong to secretly take Rosalind Franklin's work, that James Watson was wrong to encourage and benefit from the unauthorized taking, and that at the very least Watson and Wilkins should have properly credited Franklin's part in the discovery of the structure of the DNA molecule.

I read 'DNA: The Secret of life' few years ago. As far as I remember, Watson discusses the rivalry with Franklin in detail. I guess it must have been hard on her - losing out in the race to unlock DNA pattern, while her own data contributed in part to the discovery. However I don't think it is correct to consider her a hapless victim. Crick and Watson did crack the DNA structures themselves.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
baggins
Posts: 855
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 3:53:41 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 9:45:25 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
The best part is that they explicitly went behind her back to steal her data. They knew that she had solved the problem ...

Wrong. She had not solved it completely. The last part was actually done by Crick and Watson.

... and they asked her if she wanted to collaborate (i.e. give them her data), and she refused. Watson went and whined to Wilkins, who stole her work and gave it to the people who went on to wrongfully win the Nobel Prize.
The Holy Quran 29:19-20

See they not how Allah originates creation, then repeats it: truly that is easy for Allah.

Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 3:55:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 3:53:41 PM, baggins wrote:
At 8/24/2012 9:45:25 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
The best part is that they explicitly went behind her back to steal her data. They knew that she had solved the problem ...

Wrong. She had not solved it completely. The last part was actually done by Crick and Watson.

She had the beta form done and she was just about to finish the alpha form. Unpublished manuscripts prove this.
... and they asked her if she wanted to collaborate (i.e. give them her data), and she refused. Watson went and whined to Wilkins, who stole her work and gave it to the people who went on to wrongfully win the Nobel Prize.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 4:00:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 3:55:29 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
She had the beta form done and she was just about to finish the alpha form. Unpublished manuscripts prove this.

How's it their fault if the woman was too slow? o.O

hee hee hee..
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 4:19:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 4:00:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/24/2012 3:55:29 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
She had the beta form done and she was just about to finish the alpha form. Unpublished manuscripts prove this.

How's it their fault if the woman was too slow? o.O

It was intellectual property theft . . .
DirkBergurk
Posts: 32
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/24/2012 10:26:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 9:45:25 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
The best part is that they explicitly went behind her back to steal her data. They knew that she had solved the problem and they asked her if she wanted to collaborate (i.e. give them her data), and she refused. Watson went and whined to Wilkins, who stole her work and gave it to the people who went on to wrongfully win the Nobel Prize.

All four of them deserved the Nobel prize. She would have received it as well had she not passed away before it was awarded.
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 3:16:55 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 4:19:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/24/2012 4:00:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 8/24/2012 3:55:29 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
She had the beta form done and she was just about to finish the alpha form. Unpublished manuscripts prove this.

How's it their fault if the woman was too slow? o.O

It was intellectual property theft . . .

Yup, Ms. Pirate.
#StandWithBossy

#TheMadmanWasUnbanned
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,730
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 6:48:38 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/24/2012 9:45:25 AM, royalpaladin wrote:
The best part is that they explicitly went behind her back to steal her data. They knew that she had solved the problem and they asked her if she wanted to collaborate (i.e. give them her data), and she refused. Watson went and whined to Wilkins, who stole her work and gave it to the people who went on to wrongfully win the Nobel Prize.

I'm not sure it's "they explicitly went behind her back", most who knew him say that wasn't something Crick would do. Watson on the other hand, was exactly the type, aside from being brilliant, he didn't have a lot of redeeming qualities. He was known to be rude, self absorbed and arrogant, a proponent of eugenics who advocated eliminating undesirables such as homosexuals, racist, misogynistic, candidly prejudiced against overweight people, apparently the only people skill he really had was a knack for associating with older scientists like Crick who could help him advance his career.

Based on the elementary principle of "miserable excuse for a human being", I say we blame Watson.
It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
OberHerr
Posts: 12,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 4:08:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 4:05:45 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
My education, however, will not occur anyways.

Well thats debatable.

And, there is possibility that her may not have gotten the publicity it could have, or couldn't have gone through.

So, no, it might not have gone through anyways.

And yours could continue anyways by you earning the money, or asking to borrow from your parents.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 4:22:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 4:08:50 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 8/25/2012 4:05:45 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
My education, however, will not occur anyways.

Well thats debatable.

And, there is possibility that her may not have gotten the publicity it could have, or couldn't have gone through.

So, no, it might not have gone through anyways.

You need to read history. Her paper was published third. The only reason that Watson and Crick knew about her data in the first place was that it was generating excitement due to lectures given by her boss. So yes, it would have gone through.
And yours could continue anyways by you earning the money
I've applied to 41 jobs this summer. I've been hired by a total of 0 people. A bunch of old people and people who were fired from their jobs are taking the work that I should be getting.
, or asking to borrow from your parents.
I wish I didn't have to do this. I'm not going to explain why, however.
OberHerr
Posts: 12,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 4:56:45 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 4:22:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/25/2012 4:08:50 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 8/25/2012 4:05:45 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
My education, however, will not occur anyways.

Well thats debatable.

And, there is possibility that her may not have gotten the publicity it could have, or couldn't have gone through.

So, no, it might not have gone through anyways.

You need to read history. Her paper was published third. The only reason that Watson and Crick knew about her data in the first place was that it was generating excitement due to lectures given by her boss. So yes, it would have gone through.

Not necessarily, stuff happens.

Still, I think they were thieves, and I'm glad we give her the credit today. Trust me, everyone in my school knows how she was stolen from and stuff.

But you can't call what they did bad while stealing from someone else at the same time. It's hypocritical, and I love how you try to justify it.

And yours could continue anyways by you earning the money
I've applied to 41 jobs this summer. I've been hired by a total of 0 people. A bunch of old people and people who were fired from their jobs are taking the work that I should be getting.

So, now your entitled to a job? And, maybe you need to apply for more. I dunno, but that doesn't justify stealing.

, or asking to borrow from your parents.
I wish I didn't have to do this. I'm not going to explain why, however.

I know you have issues with your parents. But, still you should use every alternative before stealing, and even then, not stealing is still better.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 5:00:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 4:56:45 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 8/25/2012 4:22:47 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/25/2012 4:08:50 PM, OberHerr wrote:
At 8/25/2012 4:05:45 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
My education, however, will not occur anyways.

Well thats debatable.

And, there is possibility that her may not have gotten the publicity it could have, or couldn't have gone through.

So, no, it might not have gone through anyways.

You need to read history. Her paper was published third. The only reason that Watson and Crick knew about her data in the first place was that it was generating excitement due to lectures given by her boss. So yes, it would have gone through.

Not necessarily, stuff happens.

Still, I think they were thieves, and I'm glad we give her the credit today. Trust me, everyone in my school knows how she was stolen from and stuff.

But you can't call what they did bad while stealing from someone else at the same time. It's hypocritical, and I love how you try to justify it.

And yours could continue anyways by you earning the money
I've applied to 41 jobs this summer. I've been hired by a total of 0 people. A bunch of old people and people who were fired from their jobs are taking the work that I should be getting.

So, now your entitled to a job?
Absolutely. How else am I supposed to live? I can't live off my parents forever.
And, maybe you need to apply for more.
After applying to 41 jobs and receiving no replies except for from 5 people who reject you, you give up :/ "Keep applying" doesn't solve my problems. I'm lucky my parents are supporting me right now. What if they weren't? I would be starving to death.

It's clear that I can't get low-end jobs. I need education to get the higher-end ones.
I dunno, but that doesn't justify stealing.

, or asking to borrow from your parents.
I wish I didn't have to do this. I'm not going to explain why, however.

I know you have issues with your parents. But, still you should use every alternative before stealing, and even then, not stealing is still better.

If I had to choose between not stealing and dying and stealing and living, I would contend that it would be more moral to steal.
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 5:03:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 5:00:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote
If I had to choose between not stealing and dying and stealing and living, I would contend that it would be more moral to steal.

So property rights only apply when you are the one with the property, amiright?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
OberHerr
Posts: 12,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 5:05:27 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Go to a charity, get a loan, welfare.

Starving, in this country, rarely if ever happens, for those that make an effort.

And, no your not entitled to a job. Someone else got it, boo hoo, look for more. Sounds rough, but it's what you gotta do. Babysitting perhaps?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 5:09:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 5:03:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/25/2012 5:00:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote
If I had to choose between not stealing and dying and stealing and living, I would contend that it would be more moral to steal.

So property rights only apply when you are the one with the property, amiright?

Nope. It's more moral from my perspective. It doesn't mean it is actually moral.
OberHerr
Posts: 12,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 5:12:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
And before you bring this up as an example, I would have no problem if you borrowed books from someone. I would have an issue if they copied their books, and gave them to you.
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 5:14:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 5:09:10 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/25/2012 5:03:18 PM, Lordknukle wrote:
At 8/25/2012 5:00:38 PM, royalpaladin wrote
If I had to choose between not stealing and dying and stealing and living, I would contend that it would be more moral to steal.

So property rights only apply when you are the one with the property, amiright?

Nope. It's more moral from my perspective. It doesn't mean it is actually moral.

No... You're violating other people's property rights and calling that justified but calling it not justified when other people violate your property rights. If you take property rights as objective, which I'm sure you do given your fanatic devotion to them, then they are applicable across all circumstances.
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."
DetectableNinja
Posts: 6,072
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 5:15:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
This is common knowledge, and taught in high school.

But furthermore, the ethics in science seem to follow a trend of open-sourcehood; the common sharing and publishing of data for use by everyone freely. The goal of "doing science" is to achieve a better understanding of the universe overall. I'm not saying passing data off as their own was RIGHT, but fame and fortune are not the end goals of research.
I've been waiting for my whole life to grow old,
and now we never will, never will.

- CHVRCHES, "Graffiti"
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,448
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 7:49:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
"I've applied to 41 jobs this summer. I've been hired by a total of 0 people. A bunch of old people and people who were fired from their jobs are taking the work that I should be getting."

THE STUPIDITY IS OVERWHELMING!!!!
#StandWithBossy

#TheMadmanWasUnbanned
royalpaladin
Posts: 22,357
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 7:55:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 7:49:11 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
"I've applied to 41 jobs this summer. I've been hired by a total of 0 people. A bunch of old people and people who were fired from their jobs are taking the work that I should be getting."

THE STUPIDITY IS OVERWHELMING!!!!

How is what I said stupid? I can provide evidence that this is happening through statistical data.
OberHerr
Posts: 12,955
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 8:11:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 7:55:55 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/25/2012 7:49:11 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
"I've applied to 41 jobs this summer. I've been hired by a total of 0 people. A bunch of old people and people who were fired from their jobs are taking the work that I should be getting."

THE STUPIDITY IS OVERWHELMING!!!!

How is what I said stupid? I can provide evidence that this is happening through statistical data.

The fact that you think you deserve the work their getting is one thing.

Another is you think that somehow, people that were laid off or fired should be put below you.

Did you apply for everything? McDonalds? Stuff like that?
-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-OBERHERR'S SIGNATURE-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-

Official Enforcer for the DDO Elite(if they existed).

"Cases are anti-town." - FourTrouble

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
Lordknukle
Posts: 12,788
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
8/25/2012 8:16:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 8/25/2012 7:55:55 PM, royalpaladin wrote:
At 8/25/2012 7:49:11 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
"I've applied to 41 jobs this summer. I've been hired by a total of 0 people. A bunch of old people and people who were fired from their jobs are taking the work that I should be getting."

THE STUPIDITY IS OVERWHELMING!!!!

How is what I said stupid? I can provide evidence that this is happening through statistical data.

Didn't you graduate from Columbia?
"Easy is the descent to Avernus, for the door to the Underworld lies upon both day and night. But to retrace your steps and return to the breezes above- that's the task, that's the toil."

By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use.