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Dark Matter and Dark Energy

keithprosser
Posts: 8,122
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1/30/2017 5:33:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
My understanding is that there are two unexplained phenomena:

1 - the rotation curve of galaxies, ie according to current theory they should fly apart like a catherine wheel, but cleary they don't fall apart.

2 - the universe's expansion is getting faster but prima facie gravity should be
slowing it down.

1 is the 'dark matter' problem and 2 is the 'dark energy' problem. Critics of science mock this as an example of scientists just making stuff up to shore up their threadbare and incorrect theories.

That is sort of true, but it's not really fair! As I say, 1 and 2 are genuine problems where theory and measurements don't match up. If we call them 'the rotation curve problem' and the 'accelerating expansion' problem then 'dark X' is more like a label for whatever it is that is putting the calculations off.

The label 'dark matter' stuck because the most popular - and arguably most likely - reason the measured rotration of galaxies doesn't match calculation is that there is a lot of of mass in a galaxy that we can't see in telescopes. Because see can't see it, it got called 'dark' and because it has mass we call it 'matter'. But that doesn't mean that science invented 'dark matter' out of nothing. Quite the opposite, because once someone has had the idea 'hey, I've worked out the rotation of galaxies works out properly if there is invisible mass in galaxies' then the hunt is on to see if that idea is right.

So whether dark matter is the correct solution to the 'rotation curve problem' will be revealed fairly soon, but the problem might due to something else entirely and there is no such thing as dark matter - some people are still working on 'Modified gravity' based theories.

So to say the science just makes stuff up is not really fair. Of course the same sort of thing goes for dark energy.

I hope I'm just preaching to the converted - but it's good to get things off your chest sometimes, isn't it?
Unterseeboot
Posts: 202
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1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, so long as you admit that science now has no freaking idea what 90% of the Known Universe is Comprised of, we agree. And yo also gotta know that, in truth, neither Dark Matter or Dark Energy (the latter of which is far more troublesome for Cosmology to explain) have really been "discovered." Rather, the cosmological effects they generate have been observed. Science still knows NOT what either DM or DE are made of. And those terms are simply throw-away catch-all generic names for their effects. And thos names will indeed change to more accurate ones if and when science discerns what they really are.
But right now, the term "Dark Energy" is like, before gravity was discovered and proven, you just called it "falling down energy." LOL
Hmm...btw, we stil cannot even explain what medium, or what the force of gravity explains. The much-touted Higgs Boson discovery, that was supposed to tie-in QM and Gravity to from a Grand Unified Theory, never really answered much, did it.
The only conclusion to be drawn from all of the above is that over the past couple of decades science may have actually discovered they no less about things than they thought.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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1/30/2017 6:27:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
Well, so long as you admit that science now has no freaking idea what 90% of the Known Universe is Comprised of, we agree. And yo also gotta know that, in truth, neither Dark Matter or Dark Energy (the latter of which is far more troublesome for Cosmology to explain) have really been "discovered." Rather, the cosmological effects they generate have been observed. Science still knows NOT what either DM or DE are made of. And those terms are simply throw-away catch-all generic names for their effects. And thos names will indeed change to more accurate ones if and when science discerns what they really are.
But right now, the term "Dark Energy" is like, before gravity was discovered and proven, you just called it "falling down energy." LOL
Hmm...btw, we stil cannot even explain what medium, or what the force of gravity explains. The much-touted Higgs Boson discovery, that was supposed to tie-in QM and Gravity to from a Grand Unified Theory, never really answered much, did it.
The only conclusion to be drawn from all of the above is that over the past couple of decades science may have actually discovered they no less about things than they thought.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.

Oh yeah, that's the ticket. God is revealing himself. Idiot.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Unterseeboot
Posts: 202
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1/30/2017 11:17:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2017 6:27:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
Well, so long as you admit that science now has no freaking idea what 90% of the Known Universe is Comprised of, we agree. And yo also gotta know that, in truth, neither Dark Matter or Dark Energy (the latter of which is far more troublesome for Cosmology to explain) have really been "discovered." Rather, the cosmological effects they generate have been observed. Science still knows NOT what either DM or DE are made of. And those terms are simply throw-away catch-all generic names for their effects. And thos names will indeed change to more accurate ones if and when science discerns what they really are.
But right now, the term "Dark Energy" is like, before gravity was discovered and proven, you just called it "falling down energy." LOL
Hmm...btw, we stil cannot even explain what medium, or what the force of gravity explains. The much-touted Higgs Boson discovery, that was supposed to tie-in QM and Gravity to from a Grand Unified Theory, never really answered much, did it.
The only conclusion to be drawn from all of the above is that over the past couple of decades science may have actually discovered they no less about things than they thought.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.

Oh yeah, that's the ticket. God is revealing himself. Idiot.

Ticket indeed.

Btw...I just reported your post for personal attacks. I will not have it, especially from somebody intellectually inferior to myself.
dee-em
Posts: 10,593
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1/31/2017 1:03:25 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:

Well, so long as you admit that science now has no freaking idea what 90% of the Known Universe is Comprised of, we agree.

Certainly. And the problem is? Did science ever claim omniscience?

And yo also gotta know that, in truth, neither Dark Matter or Dark Energy (the latter of which is far more troublesome for Cosmology to explain) have really been "discovered." Rather, the cosmological effects they generate have been observed. Science still knows NOT what either DM or DE are made of. And those terms are simply throw-away catch-all generic names for their effects. And thos names will indeed change to more accurate ones if and when science discerns what they really are.

I'm fairly sure that was what the OP was stating. Why belabour the obvious?

But right now, the term "Dark Energy" is like, before gravity was discovered and proven, you just called it "falling down energy." LOL

Hilarious. What do you find funny exactly?

Hmm...btw, we stil cannot even explain what medium, or what the force of gravity explains. The much-touted Higgs Boson discovery, that was supposed to tie-in QM and Gravity to from a Grand Unified Theory, never really answered much, did it.

It was confirmation of a prediction of the standard model and served to further strengthen it. What more did you expect? It had nothing directly to do with a GUT per se. That is you displaying your ignorance.

The only conclusion to be drawn from all of the above is that over the past couple of decades science may have actually discovered they no less about things than they thought.

You mean knowledge has gone backwards? Perhaps yours has. Lol.

If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.

If you equate God with the universe then yes, science is discovering more about God. Why then do you seek to bad-mouth science every chance you get? That would be idiotic, right?

LOL

Small minds are easily amused I guess. They can laugh at nothing in particular.
Lying and/or abusive trolls on permanent ignore: ethang5, skipsaweirdo, dsjpk5, Polytheist_Witch, Studio-B, TKDB, Factseeker, graceofgod.
MagicAintReal
Posts: 1,241
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1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?
Annnaxim
Posts: 435
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1/31/2017 5:18:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?
By "Gravity"?
MagicAintReal
Posts: 1,241
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1/31/2017 5:29:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 5:18:01 PM, Annnaxim wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?
By "Gravity"?

The distortion of space by mass is god revealing himself?
Care to elaborate?
Ramshutu
Posts: 5,445
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1/31/2017 6:30:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/30/2017 5:33:46 PM, keithprosser wrote:
My understanding is that there are two unexplained phenomena:

1 - the rotation curve of galaxies, ie according to current theory they should fly apart like a catherine wheel, but cleary they don't fall apart.

2 - the universe's expansion is getting faster but prima facie gravity should be
slowing it down.

1 is the 'dark matter' problem and 2 is the 'dark energy' problem. Critics of science mock this as an example of scientists just making stuff up to shore up their threadbare and incorrect theories.

That is sort of true, but it's not really fair! As I say, 1 and 2 are genuine problems where theory and measurements don't match up. If we call them 'the rotation curve problem' and the 'accelerating expansion' problem then 'dark X' is more like a label for whatever it is that is putting the calculations off.

The label 'dark matter' stuck because the most popular - and arguably most likely - reason the measured rotration of galaxies doesn't match calculation is that there is a lot of of mass in a galaxy that we can't see in telescopes. Because see can't see it, it got called 'dark' and because it has mass we call it 'matter'. But that doesn't mean that science invented 'dark matter' out of nothing. Quite the opposite, because once someone has had the idea 'hey, I've worked out the rotation of galaxies works out properly if there is invisible mass in galaxies' then the hunt is on to see if that idea is right.

So whether dark matter is the correct solution to the 'rotation curve problem' will be revealed fairly soon, but the problem might due to something else entirely and there is no such thing as dark matter - some people are still working on 'Modified gravity' based theories.

So to say the science just makes stuff up is not really fair. Of course the same sort of thing goes for dark energy.

I hope I'm just preaching to the converted - but it's good to get things off your chest sometimes, isn't it?

I would point out that the biggest argument for Dark Matter, is gravitational lensing caused by distance galaxies being FAR FAR greater than the observable mass of those galaxies could account for.

While the rotation of the galaxies could be off because of some unknown flaw in our theoretical physics, the lensing factor is far more indicative of there actually being something there.

The same goes for Dark Energy; topography measurements of the universe from the CMB indicate that the universe is flat, meaning the energy density is effectively zero. There isn't nearly enough matter (or dark matter) in the universe to make that so.

The remaining "dark" energy required to make a 0 energy density universe, is almost exactly the same amount of dark energy as measured by the increasing expansion of the universe.

This is not to say what you said is wrong, but incomplete. Rotational curves of galaxies wouldn't in itself be enough, imo, to be able to make a claim about dark matter; and still may not be. There's just a little more to the sciences invocation that there is "something" there than what you've included.
Unterseeboot
Posts: 202
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1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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1/31/2017 6:51:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

So, your own personal, biased version of God is revealing himself and that the rest of the world can't help but see your God, even though you're the only one who can. In other words, you are completely alone in this worldview, or should I say, bubble.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
MagicAintReal
Posts: 1,241
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1/31/2017 6:55:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
There is only one God.

Oh, by assertion?

And due to all the other fake manmade gods

Which somehow your god isn't a part of...

But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe.

How?
What mechanism did "it" use to create the universe?

Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker.

Sounds like an amazing blowjob.

Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al.

Ok...

The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

Random, but ok.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself.

So god is the natural universe?
That's just you labeling something that exists with "god."
Why should we accept this label?

You do not have to look far to see it.

*slowly puts telescope away*

In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

I'm an integral part of god?
How holy!
Unterseeboot
Posts: 202
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1/31/2017 11:37:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 6:51:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

So, your own personal, biased version of God is revealing himself and that the rest of the world can't help but see your God, even though you're the only one who can. In other words, you are completely alone in this worldview, or should I say, bubble.

Everybody's version of God or the lack thereof is biased, amigo. And last I checked, this was a debate site. You know, voicing opinions and all that. Sigh.

But I am far far from the only person who believes as I do. Millions others out there know about the God, The Way, the Taoist calls it. And what's better yet is that this Intelligent Sustaining Force can be tapped into which can help one real optimal efficacy in one's life's endeavors. Thanks.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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2/1/2017 12:13:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 11:37:26 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:51:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

So, your own personal, biased version of God is revealing himself and that the rest of the world can't help but see your God, even though you're the only one who can. In other words, you are completely alone in this worldview, or should I say, bubble.

Everybody's version of God or the lack thereof is biased, amigo. And last I checked, this was a debate site. You know, voicing opinions and all that. Sigh.

But I am far far from the only person who believes as I do. Millions others out there know about the God, The Way, the Taoist calls it. And what's better yet is that this Intelligent Sustaining Force can be tapped into which can help one real optimal efficacy in one's life's endeavors. Thanks.

Sorry, but no such force or god or whatever you wish to imagine have never been shown to exist.

And, you certainly are free to offer your uninformed, delusional opinion, no problem.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Unterseeboot
Posts: 202
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2/1/2017 5:48:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/1/2017 12:13:22 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 11:37:26 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:51:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

So, your own personal, biased version of God is revealing himself and that the rest of the world can't help but see your God, even though you're the only one who can. In other words, you are completely alone in this worldview, or should I say, bubble.

Everybody's version of God or the lack thereof is biased, amigo. And last I checked, this was a debate site. You know, voicing opinions and all that. Sigh.

But I am far far from the only person who believes as I do. Millions others out there know about the God, The Way, the Taoist calls it. And what's better yet is that this Intelligent Sustaining Force can be tapped into which can help one real optimal efficacy in one's life's endeavors. Thanks.

Sorry, but no such force or god or whatever you wish to imagine have never been shown to exist.

And, you certainly are free to offer your uninformed, delusional opinion, no problem.

Argument fallacy from Ignorance..........just because something has never been proven to exist does not mean it does not or cannot. Thanks for reaffirming what the primary problem with the religion of Scientism is.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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2/1/2017 5:56:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/1/2017 5:48:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 2/1/2017 12:13:22 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 11:37:26 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:51:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

So, your own personal, biased version of God is revealing himself and that the rest of the world can't help but see your God, even though you're the only one who can. In other words, you are completely alone in this worldview, or should I say, bubble.

Everybody's version of God or the lack thereof is biased, amigo. And last I checked, this was a debate site. You know, voicing opinions and all that. Sigh.

But I am far far from the only person who believes as I do. Millions others out there know about the God, The Way, the Taoist calls it. And what's better yet is that this Intelligent Sustaining Force can be tapped into which can help one real optimal efficacy in one's life's endeavors. Thanks.

Sorry, but no such force or god or whatever you wish to imagine have never been shown to exist.

And, you certainly are free to offer your uninformed, delusional opinion, no problem.

Argument fallacy from Ignorance..........just because something has never been proven to exist does not mean it does not or cannot.

Yet, when claims for things that allegedly exist have no evidence whatsoever are dismissed. You don't seem to understand the concept of burden of proof.

Thanks for reaffirming what the primary problem with the religion of Scientism is.

You appear to be a staunch follower of Scientism, making assertions without evidence, assuming we should take your assertion seriously when all it appears to be is another empty claim.

You are just another believer here who has no understanding of science, yet wish to pretend that you do.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 2,625
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2/4/2017 3:22:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 6:30:05 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/30/2017 5:33:46 PM, keithprosser wrote:
My understanding is that there are two unexplained phenomena:

1 - the rotation curve of galaxies, ie according to current theory they should fly apart like a catherine wheel, but cleary they don't fall apart.

2 - the universe's expansion is getting faster but prima facie gravity should be
slowing it down.

1 is the 'dark matter' problem and 2 is the 'dark energy' problem. Critics of science mock this as an example of scientists just making stuff up to shore up their threadbare and incorrect theories.

That is sort of true, but it's not really fair! As I say, 1 and 2 are genuine problems where theory and measurements don't match up. If we call them 'the rotation curve problem' and the 'accelerating expansion' problem then 'dark X' is more like a label for whatever it is that is putting the calculations off.

The label 'dark matter' stuck because the most popular - and arguably most likely - reason the measured rotration of galaxies doesn't match calculation is that there is a lot of of mass in a galaxy that we can't see in telescopes. Because see can't see it, it got called 'dark' and because it has mass we call it 'matter'. But that doesn't mean that science invented 'dark matter' out of nothing. Quite the opposite, because once someone has had the idea 'hey, I've worked out the rotation of galaxies works out properly if there is invisible mass in galaxies' then the hunt is on to see if that idea is right.

So whether dark matter is the correct solution to the 'rotation curve problem' will be revealed fairly soon, but the problem might due to something else entirely and there is no such thing as dark matter - some people are still working on 'Modified gravity' based theories.

So to say the science just makes stuff up is not really fair. Of course the same sort of thing goes for dark energy.

I hope I'm just preaching to the converted - but it's good to get things off your chest sometimes, isn't it?

I would point out that the biggest argument for Dark Matter, is gravitational lensing caused by distance galaxies being FAR FAR greater than the observable mass of those galaxies could account for.

While the rotation of the galaxies could be off because of some unknown flaw in our theoretical physics, the lensing factor is far more indicative of there actually being something there.

Any unexpected observation could be due to a flaw in the theory, lensing too, for all you know a theory able to explain spiral galaxy kinematics may also end up explaining the lensing effect.

The same goes for Dark Energy; topography measurements of the universe from the CMB indicate that the universe is flat, meaning the energy density is effectively zero. There isn't nearly enough matter (or dark matter) in the universe to make that so.

The remaining "dark" energy required to make a 0 energy density universe, is almost exactly the same amount of dark energy as measured by the increasing expansion of the universe.


This is not to say what you said is wrong, but incomplete. Rotational curves of galaxies wouldn't in itself be enough, imo, to be able to make a claim about dark matter; and still may not be. There's just a little more to the sciences invocation that there is "something" there than what you've included.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 2,625
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2/4/2017 3:39:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 1/31/2017 6:51:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

So, your own personal, biased version of God is revealing himself and that the rest of the world can't help but see your God, even though you're the only one who can. In other words, you are completely alone in this worldview, or should I say, bubble.

Well this is a science forum but since you delight in your atheism I must point out that God does indeed reveal himself whether you acknowledge it is your own choice.

Your ignorance of this subject is huge, the New Testament shouldn't exist, the things written in it should not have been written IF we extrapolate what we know about history. There is NO way a Jew in those times would have acted or spoke as Christ did, it is so far outside of normality it's unreal.

There is also NO way such a Jew would have garnered followers (disciples) by advocating submission, love of enemies etc when all the while the community had been anticipating a physical, powerful ruler.

There is NO way such followers would insist they saw Christ alive, there is NO way they'd suffer capture, imprisonment, torture and death as they did IF this were not true.

Your perception of religion, God, Christ is hugely influenced by the modern world and not on the original historic documents.

There is a huge amount of material in the New Testament that is bizarre, completely at odds with the then prevailing beliefs, so bizarre that it makes no real sense unless it were in fact true.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

These kinds of remarks - scattered throughout the NT - indicate that Christ revealed profound knowledge to his disciples, in the NT and various epistles are snippets of knowledge that were given to them, Christ taught these disciples, he explained stuff to them that nobody had ever understood before, right after his appearance after the resurrection:

"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

He had to explain because unless God wishes it, no human will understand, unless God calls us we will never understand, acknowledge etc.

You need to read some history my friend and stop seeing everything Biblical through the smoke of 2,000 years of human foolishness.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 13,644
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2/4/2017 4:47:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2017 3:39:05 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:51:13 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:41:00 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:
At 1/31/2017 5:11:17 PM, MagicAintReal wrote:
At 1/30/2017 6:03:02 PM, Unterseeboot wrote:.
If this was not a Science Forum, and I did not respect the rules of it, I would now take the opportunity to surmise that the reason for that last fact is that God is revealing Himself.
Ooops.

LOL

So which god and by what mechanism is this god revealing himself?

There is only one God. And due to all the other fake manmade gods out there I hesitate to use that name. But He (It) is an Intelligent and non-personal Entity that created and sustains the Universe. Perhaps "God Head" is a better moniker. Mind you this is a Deistic and NOT a theistic personal god along the lines of a Yahweh or a Allah or a Krishna, et al. The closest religion out there to really understanding this True Creator God is probably Daoism. As well as the Jewish idea of Tikkun.

And the very daily actions of nature and the Universe are indeed this God revealing himself. You do not have to look far to see it. In fact, you cannot help but see it, and like it or not you are an integral part of it.

So, your own personal, biased version of God is revealing himself and that the rest of the world can't help but see your God, even though you're the only one who can. In other words, you are completely alone in this worldview, or should I say, bubble.

Well this is a science forum but since you delight in your atheism I must point out that God does indeed reveal himself whether you acknowledge it is your own choice.

Wow, now you sound just like MadCornishBiker. LOL.

Your ignorance of this subject is huge, the New Testament shouldn't exist, the things written in it should not have been written IF we extrapolate what we know about history. There is NO way a Jew in those times would have acted or spoke as Christ did, it is so far outside of normality it's unreal.

Personal incredulity fallacy.

There is also NO way such a Jew would have garnered followers (disciples) by advocating submission, love of enemies etc when all the while the community had been anticipating a physical, powerful ruler.

Personal incredulity fallacy.

There is NO way such followers would insist they saw Christ alive, there is NO way they'd suffer capture, imprisonment, torture and death as they did IF this were not true.

Personal incredulity fallacy.

Your perception of religion, God, Christ is hugely influenced by the modern world and not on the original historic documents.

My perception of religion is just like others, based on the one and only book you all have, the Bible, and the atrocious behavior of it's followers.

There is a huge amount of material in the New Testament that is bizarre, completely at odds with the then prevailing beliefs, so bizarre that it makes no real sense unless it were in fact true.

Personal incredulity fallacy.

"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

These kinds of remarks - scattered throughout the NT - indicate that Christ revealed profound knowledge to his disciples, in the NT and various epistles are snippets of knowledge that were given to them, Christ taught these disciples, he explained stuff to them that nobody had ever understood before, right after his appearance after the resurrection:

"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself."

He had to explain because unless God wishes it, no human will understand, unless God calls us we will never understand, acknowledge etc.

Now, you sound like Muslims talking about Muhammad. LOL.

You need to read some history my friend and stop seeing everything Biblical through the smoke of 2,000 years of human foolishness.

And yet, the followers of the Bible have offered us nothing more than foolishness, just like you're doing.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
There would be peace if you obeyed us.~Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Ramshutu
Posts: 5,445
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2/4/2017 6:39:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/4/2017 3:22:21 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/31/2017 6:30:05 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/30/2017 5:33:46 PM, keithprosser wrote:
My understanding is that there are two unexplained phenomena:

1 - the rotation curve of galaxies, ie according to current theory they should fly apart like a catherine wheel, but cleary they don't fall apart.

2 - the universe's expansion is getting faster but prima facie gravity should be
slowing it down.

1 is the 'dark matter' problem and 2 is the 'dark energy' problem. Critics of science mock this as an example of scientists just making stuff up to shore up their threadbare and incorrect theories.

That is sort of true, but it's not really fair! As I say, 1 and 2 are genuine problems where theory and measurements don't match up. If we call them 'the rotation curve problem' and the 'accelerating expansion' problem then 'dark X' is more like a label for whatever it is that is putting the calculations off.

The label 'dark matter' stuck because the most popular - and arguably most likely - reason the measured rotration of galaxies doesn't match calculation is that there is a lot of of mass in a galaxy that we can't see in telescopes. Because see can't see it, it got called 'dark' and because it has mass we call it 'matter'. But that doesn't mean that science invented 'dark matter' out of nothing. Quite the opposite, because once someone has had the idea 'hey, I've worked out the rotation of galaxies works out properly if there is invisible mass in galaxies' then the hunt is on to see if that idea is right.

So whether dark matter is the correct solution to the 'rotation curve problem' will be revealed fairly soon, but the problem might due to something else entirely and there is no such thing as dark matter - some people are still working on 'Modified gravity' based theories.

So to say the science just makes stuff up is not really fair. Of course the same sort of thing goes for dark energy.

I hope I'm just preaching to the converted - but it's good to get things off your chest sometimes, isn't it?

I would point out that the biggest argument for Dark Matter, is gravitational lensing caused by distance galaxies being FAR FAR greater than the observable mass of those galaxies could account for.

While the rotation of the galaxies could be off because of some unknown flaw in our theoretical physics, the lensing factor is far more indicative of there actually being something there.

Any unexpected observation could be due to a flaw in the theory, lensing too, for all you know a theory able to explain spiral galaxy kinematics may also end up explaining the lensing effect.

Of course, it could be something completely weird.

However, you would need evidence that it is. Thus far, the only thing that could lense light in the way it is, is something gravitational; unseen gravitational force equally explains galaxy kinematics in a way that explains both equally well. The force and mass estimates from lensing also fills a specific energy gap that would otherwise be missing when calculating the energy density of the universe when compared to other methods of measurement.

So, while it's possible it's something else non-gravitational; there is no evidence that it is, and plenty of corroborating lines of evidence that indicates it is.

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