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Are Saudi women really oppressed?

Varrack
Posts: 2,688
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4/5/2018 10:58:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
When we think of oppression, we think of the unjust treatment of certain groups. However, one of the definitions of oppression is "the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc." [http://www.dictionary.com...]

Interestingly, this mental distress doesn't seem to really exist. A poll conducted to over 8,000 Saudi women found that 90% support the system of male guardianship [http://www.jpost.com...]. Another poll found that 86% of women oppose the female driving ban being lifted [https://www.theguardian.com...]. Gallup found that less than a majority of Saudi women agreed they should be able to hold political office [http://news.gallup.com...].

If most Saudi women are in favor of traditional gender roles and restrictions, then how much weight does the assertion that they are being oppressed hold? If support for the reforms was much larger, then then I would agree that change should occur...but shouldn't the right to self-determination extend to Saudi Arabia as well?
Athias
Posts: 323
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4/5/2018 11:35:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/5/2018 10:58:12 PM, Varrack wrote:
When we think of oppression, we think of the unjust treatment of certain groups. However, one of the definitions of oppression is "the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc." [http://www.dictionary.com...]

Interestingly, this mental distress doesn't seem to really exist. A poll conducted to over 8,000 Saudi women found that 90% support the system of male guardianship [http://www.jpost.com...]. Another poll found that 86% of women oppose the female driving ban being lifted [https://www.theguardian.com...]. Gallup found that less than a majority of Saudi women agreed they should be able to hold political office [http://news.gallup.com...].

If most Saudi women are in favor of traditional gender roles and restrictions, then how much weight does the assertion that they are being oppressed hold? If support for the reforms was much larger, then then I would agree that change should occur...but shouldn't the right to self-determination extend to Saudi Arabia as well?

Their being oppressed is a Westernized, globalist narrative. Ask children whether or not they truly feel oppressed by their parents despite their parents having plenary authority over their person and behavior. Gender roles are a manifestation of gender based divisions of labor. Saudi women understand what comes with male guardianship, i.e. protection, duty, and care--not a perverted notion of male authority which feminists would have you believe.
Wizofoz
Posts: 3,374
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4/6/2018 12:28:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/5/2018 10:58:12 PM, Varrack wrote:
When we think of oppression, we think of the unjust treatment of certain groups. However, one of the definitions of oppression is "the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc." [http://www.dictionary.com...]

Interestingly, this mental distress doesn't seem to really exist. A poll conducted to over 8,000 Saudi women found that 90% support the system of male guardianship [http://www.jpost.com...]. Another poll found that 86% of women oppose the female driving ban being lifted [https://www.theguardian.com...]. Gallup found that less than a majority of Saudi women agreed they should be able to hold political office [http://news.gallup.com...].

If most Saudi women are in favor of traditional gender roles and restrictions, then how much weight does the assertion that they are being oppressed hold? If support for the reforms was much larger, then then I would agree that change should occur...but shouldn't the right to self-determination extend to Saudi Arabia as well?

You hit it on the head with "self-determination".

Even a woman in the west can acquiesce to male guardianship and elect not to drive- many (mostly Muslim) Women in the west do.

When it is mandated by Government, it is oppression.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 25,031
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4/6/2018 2:16:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/5/2018 10:58:12 PM, Varrack wrote:
When we think of oppression, we think of the unjust treatment of certain groups. However, one of the definitions of oppression is "the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc." [http://www.dictionary.com...]

Interestingly, this mental distress doesn't seem to really exist. A poll conducted to over 8,000 Saudi women found that 90% support the system of male guardianship [http://www.jpost.com...]. Another poll found that 86% of women oppose the female driving ban being lifted [https://www.theguardian.com...]. Gallup found that less than a majority of Saudi women agreed they should be able to hold political office [http://news.gallup.com...].

If most Saudi women are in favor of traditional gender roles and restrictions, then how much weight does the assertion that they are being oppressed hold? If support for the reforms was much larger, then then I would agree that change should occur...but shouldn't the right to self-determination extend to Saudi Arabia as well?

I would think that most oppressed people, especially in areas of little exposure to an outside world, are not likely to think they are oppressed. And, of course, outside cultures will always insert their beliefs onto others, influencing the culture they are observing.

I would think that, unless something is egregious, which I don't think treatment of women in the Middle East is (with exception of rural areas and extraordinary examples....just like in the USA), the outside world should offer information, and let the people make an informed decision.

Forcing a change is a great way to cause problems.
At least the noble sheep provides us warm sweaters. All your hides would provide are coward pants. - Dick Solomon

"I call albatross!" - seventhprofessor
Varrack
Posts: 2,688
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4/6/2018 4:16:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/5/2018 11:35:33 PM, Athias wrote:
At 4/5/2018 10:58:12 PM, Varrack wrote:
When we think of oppression, we think of the unjust treatment of certain groups. However, one of the definitions of oppression is "the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, anxiety, etc." [http://www.dictionary.com...]

Interestingly, this mental distress doesn't seem to really exist. A poll conducted to over 8,000 Saudi women found that 90% support the system of male guardianship [http://www.jpost.com...]. Another poll found that 86% of women oppose the female driving ban being lifted [https://www.theguardian.com...]. Gallup found that less than a majority of Saudi women agreed they should be able to hold political office [http://news.gallup.com...].

If most Saudi women are in favor of traditional gender roles and restrictions, then how much weight does the assertion that they are being oppressed hold? If support for the reforms was much larger, then then I would agree that change should occur...but shouldn't the right to self-determination extend to Saudi Arabia as well?

Their being oppressed is a Westernized, globalist narrative. Ask children whether or not they truly feel oppressed by their parents despite their parents having plenary authority over their person and behavior. Gender roles are a manifestation of gender based divisions of labor. Saudi women understand what comes with male guardianship, i.e. protection, duty, and care--not a perverted notion of male authority which feminists would have you believe.

I do think there are some instances where that could be detrimental though. I did read an account of a Saudi women who was injured in a taxi accident and couldn't be served by the ambulance until her male guardian came, which led to her losing a lot of blood.

Most cases probably aren't like that though, so I wouldn't oppose it in general.
Varrack
Posts: 2,688
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4/7/2018 5:37:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/7/2018 4:40:57 AM, revenant_a wrote:
Why should subjective criteria determine what is and isn't objectionable?

Criteria for what?

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