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Female Sexuality

Danielle
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2/5/2017 5:27:48 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Now as much as I'm a feminist, as much as I value women and as much as I rally against the status quo treatment of women in various avenues of society, the fact is that we (people in society) are animals. And while I expect humans to behave in a way that is civilized and respectful, we are largely driven by sexual instincts as part of our evolutionary psychology and physiology. Thus while I find sexual assault to be inexcusable, and outward flirtation to be inappropriate out of context (say in a professional setting) I do think it's unrealistic to expect men, or all of us really, to abandon our innate sexual urges and desires - which often includes objectifying the sex we're attracted to.

This is something that women have to endure far more-so than men both in terms of volume and harmful backlash. Guys may get checked out on the street, but they are often not harassed and almost never feel threatened. There are a lot of aspects about being a woman that just suck or are unfair and this is one of them. However, we get to give birth and perpetuate the human race which men cannot do - so there's that. And there are other benefits and advantages to being a woman as well.

One of them is that women, more-so than men, have the ability to use their sexuality to their advantage. One of my exes used to do it all the time, whether it was getting free drinks, rides, entry to clubs, parties, help with something, weed, favors, etc. She was always flirting, subconsciously or not, and definitely using her body for attention. It frustrated me, but from her perspective, I could see why she thought it was fine (uh, more so if she were single) because she was getting something out of it for her/us, and using her femininity and sexuality as a form of empowerment and to her advantage.

So I was talking about this with my friend the other night, and thought about a recent thread where YYW commented that he didn't like most women, because they often tried to flirt with him to get him to do things for them. I could see that happening and being annoying, but I understand why women do it and I don't fault them for it. In my perspective, if women just have to accept the way things are insofar as their femininity/sexuality being a detriment in many cases, then it is perfectly fair game and in fact smart (and evolutionarily prudent) to exploit that to their advantage whenever possible. Considering it can also be a threat and a detriment, I think using it to get ahead is fine since in many cases it can be used to oppress you, suppress you, harm you or leave you behind. Does that make sense?

Discuss: Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage? Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment? Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom? Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?
Hayd
Posts: 4,407
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2/5/2017 5:45:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I agree with you completely until you talk about women using sexuality to their advantage.

I would fault women for using their sexuality to their advantage. It is simply annoying and immature. Every popular kid at my high school that I dislike is hollow inside and the girls use their sexuality to further pursue their plastic wants. Any person that I can think of that would use sexuality to their advantage would be in that group, and I do fault them for it.

The argument that women can use it to get ahead does not work, as there should be no need to get ahead. Women should not have to be enpowered by using sexuality to their advantage in the first place.

The question of sexual roles is very interesting though. At first glance, women ought to be subordinate sexually to men because of the intrinsic physical inferiority of women, and their sexual wants. But then, what even is gender? Its merely a social role attatched to those of a certain sex, what bond makes us have to follow traditional sexual roles?
Devilry
Posts: 5,099
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2/5/2017 8:35:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage?

No.

Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment?

I don't think there will ever be "gender equality."

Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom?

No, I think for the first time in history women aren't existing just to be dominated. I think sexual attractiveness is more or less just a game dreamt up by males to be played between each other under these new, supposedly "civilised" conditions to living. That is, female "attractiveness" is little more than another way in which a male asserts his dominance.

Of course the greater game of it has changed quite a bit. It's a queer sort of dominance that a man takes power in his looks, for instance. And women are now afforded a game in it too. But those are its conceptions. Attractiveness is arbitrary. Interestingly, if you'll spend any time on fitness boards you'll find a bunch of "High T" fellows claiming that the "High T" makes for attraction to heavier women. Delusion, of course. But, as I said, it's just a game.

Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?

No, not really.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Mr.Wonderful
Posts: 114
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2/5/2017 10:37:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 8:35:31 AM, Devilry wrote:
Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage?

No.

Of course not, but what women don't understand is that their advantage goes away with time... and then they fail to understand why no one is interested and are left without the skill sets to be self-sustaining creating a parasitic and co-dependent reliance on men to get them through life. When that fails they are forced to rely on social safety nets like welfare to carry them through creating an just burden for the rest of society that never held these women accountable for their own actions... but the pendulum is starting to swing.


Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment?

I don't think there will ever be "gender equality."

Genders by definition are different and therefore not equal. I do think that all individuals need to be held accountable for their actions and that in our society the impetus for accountability falls squarely on the shoulders of men who are brutalized by the court system and treated as expendable commodities.


Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom?

No, I think for the first time in history women aren't existing just to be dominated. I think sexual attractiveness is more or less just a game dreamt up by males to be played between each other under these new, supposedly "civilised" conditions to living. That is, female "attractiveness" is little more than another way in which a male asserts his dominance.

I think that ultimately no one wants to bang a fat ugly chick or a fat, ugly dude unless there is some reason to do it... usually money. The issue is men place a lower value on money and therefore do not care about this portion of the female population. Being attractive and financially stable (or at least upwardly mobile) are personal responsibilities. For my part, I refuse to be with a woman that does not meet both criteria longer than a one-night stand and why should I? Its not my fault that some women cant step up to the bar.


Of course the greater game of it has changed quite a bit. It's a queer sort of dominance that a man takes power in his looks, for instance. And women are now afforded a game in it too. But those are its conceptions. Attractiveness is arbitrary. Interestingly, if you'll spend any time on fitness boards you'll find a bunch of "High T" fellows claiming that the "High T" makes for attraction to heavier women. Delusion, of course. But, as I said, it's just a game.

Well I think being fit is important... not just personally, but for a mate as well. How is your mate going to be successful and provide for children if all they can do is rely on others. All "high T" does is make one more aggressive and assertive which obviously does help you get women. If you don't go for it, you don't get it. Women don't need to search too hard for guys willing to sleep with them... lots of guys out there playing the field. The challenge for women and men is finding a guy/girl who will actually stick by them and that's the ones you want to keep. Honestly, as a man if all I want is sex there are places and people that sell it up front and more men are looking there as it avoids most of the headaches and endless pandering associated with female hypergamy... and I can guarantee those women usually have a lot more money in their pocket than the cluster of chicks trying to score with the guy with the Lamborghini... save up like $600 and try renting one for a weekend, you'll bang so many dumb chicks its hilarious and you can look like Fester from the Adams family. Its cheaper than the VIP per chick you'll bang.


Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?

No, not really.

I expect men to behave better... Its almost impossible to hold women to any standards at this point. I actually think monkeys that throw feces at each other are better behaved and slightly more interesting company for the most part. Finding a good woman worth investing in and having a future with is much harder than it is for a woman to find a man... though women don't really look so they think its impossible.
sdavio
Posts: 2,085
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2/5/2017 3:27:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 5:27:48 AM, Danielle wrote:
Discuss: Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage? Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment? Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom? Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?

The question seems basically to mean, if you know someone is attracted to you, and so pretend to be attracted to them back, only in order to get money or some other service from them, is this "unfair?" A word that comes more readily to mind would be narcissistic / sociopathic.

Traits of a sociopath: lying, lack of empathy, ability to calmly navigate social situations without emotional involvement, manipulative, lack of shame.

This kind of worldview might be deemed "liberated" or "empowering" in a very broad sense, in the same way that the sociopath might find themselves "liberated" from the bounds of reason and ethics. For more information, see Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment. This is, to my mind, an example of how concepts such as "empowerment" are bad metaphors to organize our views on ethics, if the goal is to deconstruct political monopolies which create friction against natural tendencies (e.g., regulating gender expression and so on). The question should be one of responsibility, and I will consider feminism a success when it can promote a view of women as responsible adults. The reframing of all questions into questions of "empowerment" seem to be derivations of a Foucaultian counter-enlightenment revolt which views all human interactions as power games, and makes rational and ethical responsibility into mere exercises in manipulation.
Raisor
Posts: 5,055
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2/5/2017 4:42:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Men do all sorts of social manipulation- they use their size to intimidate, use charm to persuade, are overly loud and assertive, box people out of conversations, bully, flatter, etc etc. I don't see how women being "flirty" is a special form of social tactic. I think men get especially annoyed by women being flirty mostly due to their own sexual frustration and the ways in which they view women as objects for their use- but that's just my armchair philosophy. FWIW I know men who are also flirty all the time in ways that shape social situations to their benefit. People view it as an asset in men.

YYW's post was crazy misogynistic. I'm not going to analyze it, I'm kind of surprised it is being legitimized... There are lots of obnoxious people of both genders, that post was just gross and stupid.
We gonna pull up like the ice cream truck
FourTrouble
Posts: 16,245
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2/5/2017 6:12:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 5:27:48 AM, Danielle wrote:
Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage?

The answer to this depends. Using your sexuality is fine, as long as you're honest about it. But I have no tolerance for anyone, man or woman, intentionally deceiving others via sex, for their advantage, and at the detriment of others. That's the sort of thing that perpetuates gender inequality, and generally makes interacting with the opposite sex less enjoyable, fun, and/or meaningful.

Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment?

Again, depends how women use their sexuality. It absolutely empowers them. And I'm all about people empowering themselves, within reasonable limits of course. The issue arises when women, or anyone else, abuse their sexuality. That's when you get unfair results, and eventually the sort of backlash you see with MRA-type folks, which is counterproductive to gender equality.

Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom? Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?

Yes, I expect humans to behave much better than animals. Even if evolution designed us a particular way, we're past that now.
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FourTrouble
Posts: 16,245
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2/5/2017 6:28:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 4:42:14 PM, Raisor wrote:
Men do all sorts of social manipulation- they use their size to intimidate, use charm to persuade, are overly loud and assertive, box people out of conversations, bully, flatter, etc etc. I don't see how women being "flirty" is a special form of social tactic. I think men get especially annoyed by women being flirty mostly due to their own sexual frustration and the ways in which they view women as objects for their use- but that's just my armchair philosophy. FWIW I know men who are also flirty all the time in ways that shape social situations to their benefit. People view it as an asset in men.

I have no problem with "flirting." Most "flirting" is fun. And most guys who find it annoying are just sexually frustrated.

But not all "flirting" is cool. I don't condone pretending to like someone to take advantage of them. Dishonest flirting of that sort is basically fraud. It distorts sexual intent and undermines consent.

YYW's post was crazy misogynistic. I'm not going to analyze it, I'm kind of surprised it is being legitimized... There are lots of obnoxious people of both genders, that post was just gross and stupid.

I didn't see his post. Where is it?
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Raisor
Posts: 5,055
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2/5/2017 6:38:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 6:28:37 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/5/2017 4:42:14 PM, Raisor wrote:
Men do all sorts of social manipulation- they use their size to intimidate, use charm to persuade, are overly loud and assertive, box people out of conversations, bully, flatter, etc etc. I don't see how women being "flirty" is a special form of social tactic. I think men get especially annoyed by women being flirty mostly due to their own sexual frustration and the ways in which they view women as objects for their use- but that's just my armchair philosophy. FWIW I know men who are also flirty all the time in ways that shape social situations to their benefit. People view it as an asset in men.

I have no problem with "flirting." Most "flirting" is fun. And most guys who find it annoying are just sexually frustrated.

But not all "flirting" is cool. I don't condone pretending to like someone to take advantage of them. Dishonest flirting of that sort is basically fraud. It distorts sexual intent and undermines consent.


I agree with that. If you are trying to take advantage of someone by misleading them about your romantic feelings- yes that is wrong.

I do admit that I have mixed feelings about low level behavior along these lines, eg flirting with guys for free drinks. I sort of think if you are a guy who has the view that you need to pay for women's time and is dumb enough to fall for that you deserve it. Plus the stakes are low- being manipulated out of 5 bucks is not the end of the world. Plus there is sort of a lower moral bar for nightlife behavior.

But yeah if you are leading your boss on as part of politicking for a promotion- that is wrong. I also thing the number of women who do that is vanishingly small.

YYW's post was crazy misogynistic. I'm not going to analyze it, I'm kind of surprised it is being legitimized... There are lots of obnoxious people of both genders, that post was just gross and stupid.

I didn't see his post. Where is it?
We gonna pull up like the ice cream truck
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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2/5/2017 6:43:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 4:42:14 PM, Raisor wrote:
Men do all sorts of social manipulation- they use their size to intimidate, use charm to persuade, are overly loud and assertive, box people out of conversations, bully, flatter, etc etc. I don't see how women being "flirty" is a special form of social tactic. I think men get especially annoyed by women being flirty mostly due to their own sexual frustration and the ways in which they view women as objects for their use- but that's just my armchair philosophy. FWIW I know men who are also flirty all the time in ways that shape social situations to their benefit. People view it as an asset in men.

Indeed.

YYW's post was crazy misogynistic. I'm not going to analyze it, I'm kind of surprised it is being legitimized... There are lots of obnoxious people of both genders, that post was just gross and stupid.

Of course. I was not legitimizing the entirety of YYW's post. I don't remember the details, but I remember that it was misogynistic albeit honest and I can appreciate the honesty even if I don't respect it. I recall something about him not respecting women professionally, and that is kind of my point. There are people who share his views and even more who share them to a lesser, more subtle degree. So if women still have to endure sexism in this way, then isn't it fair game for them to use their femininity to their advantage if it is also seen as a detriment in many cases? Just something I was thinking about.
Devilry
Posts: 5,099
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2/5/2017 6:52:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The post was pure cringe bullsh*t, as is everything he posts pretty much.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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2/5/2017 6:52:04 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 6:12:17 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
It absolutely empowers them. And I'm all about people empowering themselves, within reasonable limits of course. The issue arises when women, or anyone else, abuse their sexuality.

What do you think the reasonable limits are? What does "abusing" qualify as? I think I understand your point, but elaboration is good for discussion ;) And also I'm kind of specifically asking about somewhat more deceitful uses, which you seem to think is not permissible.

As a blonde with big boobs and a certain demeanor, style of dress, voice, or variety of other factors both within and outside of her control, some women might get dismissed or be pre-judged based on appearance or physical traits. They might experience discrimination and bias that is detrimental. So if a woman flirts or acts coy with men she has no interest in, because they might say give her a ride or offer her something else (a favor or something) then is it wrong or morally impermissible?

IOWs is it okay for women to sort of rectify this "imbalance" in nature/society (of sexism and physical inferiority) by using certain things to their advantage in a strategic way? I'm sure most people feel only a certain level of manipulation is tolerable. Like, minimal flirting or something.

Yes, I expect humans to behave much better than animals. Even if evolution designed us a particular way, we're past that now.

Yeah, agree. It's interesting to think about where the line should be drawn though.
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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2/5/2017 6:59:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 6:28:37 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
I didn't see his post. Where is it?

Don't remember. I think it was some thread about gender or sex. He was talking about how he doesn't respect women unless they are in the medical profession. Also something about how he dislikes women because he thinks they are all trying to get something out of him.

It was definitely sexist, but I understand it even if I don't appreciate it. It's biased af but understandable from a gay perspective. For instance people complain that it's annoying how women lament over male attention and flattery, UNLESS the guy flattering them is attractive or appealing to them (in which case they're going for attention from those guys, right?). But say to a lesbian, she's never going to want attention from any guy, so all flirting is annoying - unwanted or in some cases even intimidating. Similarly to a gay man, a woman flirting and being all coy and playing dumb or timid or helpless, especially in trying to get something out of you, is always going to be annoying. It's never going to be appealing. So I can understand his overall frustration (based on his experience) even though I can acknowledge it was sexist as hell.
Udel2
Posts: 500
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2/5/2017 7:18:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 5:27:48 AM, Danielle wrote:

Discuss: Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage? Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment? Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom? Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?

I don't think it's unreasonable at all for exactly the reasons you've mentioned. Women have to endure different things men don't, like spending a lot of time on their appearance, having their appearance affect their level of respect, and a lot of other hassles, so what if they use their sexuality to their advantage? Sometimes they can't even help it, if a girl is hot then her sexuality is going to be an asset whether she likes it or not, similar to how if a guy is tall, that works to his advantage in many respects and they don't have control over it.

I think humans behave just like the animal kingdom in the way we look to attract mates. Guys are on social media flashing money, nice clothes, flashy cars, and other indications that they are doing well or can provide, and women are on there highlighting their beauty, posing in ways that emphasize desirable physical features (a$s, boobs, whatever) because at the end of the day we are going to be looking for certain things in a mate. Women have evolved to have their beauty be a key aspect in attracting others so if they have to put in the effort to deal with beauty standard bs then I can see why they would seek to use it to their advantage where possible. Everyone should be taught to be respectful and smart.
Devilry
Posts: 5,099
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2/5/2017 7:25:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 7:18:31 PM, Udel2 wrote:
At 2/5/2017 5:27:48 AM, Danielle wrote:

Discuss: Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage? Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment? Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom? Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?

I don't think it's unreasonable at all for exactly the reasons you've mentioned. Women have to endure different things men don't, like spending a lot of time on their appearance, having their appearance affect their level of respect, and a lot of other hassles, so what if they use their sexuality to their advantage? Sometimes they can't even help it, if a girl is hot then her sexuality is going to be an asset whether she likes it or not, similar to how if a guy is tall, that works to his advantage in many respects and they don't have control over it.

I think humans behave just like the animal kingdom in the way we look to attract mates. Guys are on social media flashing money, nice clothes, flashy cars, and other indications that they are doing well or can provide, and women are on there highlighting their beauty, posing in ways that emphasize desirable physical features (a$s, boobs, whatever) because at the end of the day we are going to be looking for certain things in a mate. Women have evolved to have their beauty be a key aspect in attracting others so if they have to put in the effort to deal with beauty standard bs then I can see why they would seek to use it to their advantage where possible. Everyone should be taught to be respectful and smart.

Did you also see this gif on reddit recently? http://i.imgur.com...
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
FourTrouble
Posts: 16,245
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2/5/2017 8:23:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 6:52:04 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/5/2017 6:12:17 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
It absolutely empowers them. And I'm all about people empowering themselves, within reasonable limits of course. The issue arises when women, or anyone else, abuse their sexuality.

What do you think the reasonable limits are? What does "abusing" qualify as?

There's nothing wrong with expressing your sexuality. If you want to show off your body, go for it. If a guy wants to buy you a drink because he thinks you're hot, cool. If your boss promotes you because he wants to fvck you, awesome.

The problem is intentional deception. For example, as I mentioned to Raisor, dishonest flirting. Using your sexuality dishonestly, to take advantage of someone, is abuse. That's where I draw the line in terms of reasonable limits. You're free to use your sexuality how you see fit, and to empower yourself through it, up until the point where you're lying to people about your sexual intentions. Again, as I said to Raisor, that sort of thing isn't just fraud, but it also undermines consent. It's dangerous.

As a blonde with big boobs and a certain demeanor, style of dress, voice, or variety of other factors both within and outside of her control, some women might get dismissed or be pre-judged based on appearance or physical traits. They might experience discrimination and bias that is detrimental.

This happens, for sure. But we're trying to change that, so that people don't discriminate for these sorts of things.

So if a woman flirts or acts coy with men she has no interest in, because they might say give her a ride or offer her something else (a favor or something) then is it wrong or morally impermissible?

If the person knows you're "flirting" or "acting coy" solely to get a favor, there's nothing wrong about it. Take sugar daddies, for example. I recently went on a date with a girl who has only ever dated sugar daddies (she was 24, and apparently I was her first "legit" date). I was intrigued, so we spent most of the night talking about that. The men she dated were typically married, and were interested solely in her body. Meanwhile, she was interested solely in the monthly allowances they provided, and in the constant wining/dining. There was no dishonesty; it was clear how each side felt about the other. I think that sort of honesty legitimizes any use of your sexuality.

IOWs is it okay for women to sort of rectify this "imbalance" in nature/society (of sexism and physical inferiority) by using certain things to their advantage in a strategic way? I'm sure most people feel only a certain level of manipulation is tolerable. Like, minimal flirting or something.

I don't think there are inherent "imbalances" between men/women. Yes, sexism exists, but it's not specific to women; both genders are hurt by it. In terms of "physical inferiority," that's entirely irrelevant in modern society. Men can't use physical force to rape or enslave women.
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Danielle
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2/5/2017 8:32:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 8:23:23 PM, FourTrouble wrote:

Interesting. So you seem to be saying that any use of sexuality for manipulative purposes is fair game, so long as it's not deceptive. I can buy that.

As an interesting aside for conversation: the ex I'm referring to utilized her sexuality to her advantage all the time, but almost all of us "victims" were aware. It was very frustrating. There were times she would do something so inconsiderate or so inappropriate and I would be pissed, but she knew (we both knew) that all she had to do was bat her little eyelashes and flirt and strip for me... literally just strip for me in one of her stupid little helpless, effeminate ways... and I would cave. I didn't stand a chance. She could pretty much do anything and yet no matter how mad I was, the second I confronted her she would just look at me, almost roll her eyes and just start undressing at which point I would groan (in frustration, not pleasure) because I knew that she would be able to use her sexuality to get her out of any type of accountability at all. She could just climb on top of me and immediately my sexual instinct would dominate reason/other emotions.

Now this wasn't true for most girls, but it was true for her. She was a master manipulator of her sexuality. She was able to seduce me away from an extremely powerful relationship (without trying much) and without having pretty much anything going for her BUT her sexuality... there were times I would genuinely wonder if I was breaking some type of law by sleeping with her, because she was just so fundamentally retarded. But she was hot. And she didn't just do this with me; she did this with everybody (I noticed) and ESPECIALLY with men. She's bi for reference. So I guess like men I have a high sex drive and can be persuaded via sexual temptation pretty easily (I am not proud). I was talking to my friend about her the other night, and commenting that I think this was actually brilliant on her part. Take for example The Walking Dead. There's that character that can't fight and won't kill, so instead to survive he makes other people feel sorry for him and take pity on him to protect him. I could see how using sexuality to advance yourself and your interests is a survival skill and instinct that may not be blameworthy. This particular person didn't have much else to win people over or to keep people interested, so I honestly believe a part of this was just... the way things are, and not necessarily mean spirited. Just straight up fair game amongst grown people who make conscious decisions. So yeah, I could see how the honesty bit is important like you're saying.
FourTrouble
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2/5/2017 8:34:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 6:59:57 PM, Danielle wrote:
For instance people complain that it's annoying how women lament over male attention and flattery, UNLESS the guy flattering them is attractive or appealing to them (in which case they're going for attention from those guys, right?). But say to a lesbian, she's never going to want attention from any guy, so all flirting is annoying - unwanted or in some cases even intimidating. Similarly to a gay man, a woman flirting and being all coy and playing dumb or timid or helpless, especially in trying to get something out of you, is always going to be annoying. It's never going to be appealing. So I can understand his overall frustration (based on his experience) even though I can acknowledge it was sexist as hell.

There's an interesting topic lurking here -- the sexual shaming in our society. That's what I see the above as. There's this socially enforced shaming of people who express sexual interest in others, as if somehow that's a bad thing (it's not). It shouldn't annoy you. It shouldn't frustrate you. It's an entirely normal aspect of life. It's how humans connect with each other. So, I'd take issue with the people who complain about that sort of thing. That, to me, is a problem. And, it's especially obvious as a problem when you compare the US to places like Spain or Italy, where literally nobody complains about sexual expressions, and in fact, it's seen as entirely normal.
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FourTrouble
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2/5/2017 8:38:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 8:32:33 PM, Danielle wrote:
Interesting. So you seem to be saying that any use of sexuality for manipulative purposes is fair game, so long as it's not deceptive. I can buy that.

Yeah, exactly.

As an interesting aside for conversation: the ex I'm referring to utilized her sexuality to her advantage all the time, but almost all of us "victims" were aware. It was very frustrating. There were times she would do something so inconsiderate or so inappropriate and I would be pissed, but she knew (we both knew) that all she had to do was bat her little eyelashes and flirt and strip for me... literally just strip for me in one of her stupid little helpless, effeminate ways... and I would cave. I didn't stand a chance. She could pretty much do anything and yet no matter how mad I was, the second I confronted her she would just look at me, almost roll her eyes and just start undressing at which point I would groan (in frustration, not pleasure) because I knew that she would be able to use her sexuality to get her out of any type of accountability at all. She could just climb on top of me and immediately my sexual instinct would dominate reason/other emotions.

Exactly. Women don't need to lie to empower themselves with their sexuality, because so many men/women are still going to cave.

Now this wasn't true for most girls, but it was true for her. She was a master manipulator of her sexuality. She was able to seduce me away from an extremely powerful relationship (without trying much) and without having pretty much anything going for her BUT her sexuality... there were times I would genuinely wonder if I was breaking some type of law by sleeping with her, because she was just so fundamentally retarded. But she was hot. And she didn't just do this with me; she did this with everybody (I noticed) and ESPECIALLY with men. She's bi for reference. So I guess like men I have a high sex drive and can be persuaded via sexual temptation pretty easily (I am not proud). I was talking to my friend about her the other night, and commenting that I think this was actually brilliant on her part. Take for example The Walking Dead. There's that character that can't fight and won't kill, so instead to survive he makes other people feel sorry for him and take pity on him to protect him. I could see how using sexuality to advance yourself and your interests is a survival skill and instinct that may not be blameworthy. This particular person didn't have much else to win people over or to keep people interested, so I honestly believe a part of this was just... the way things are, and not necessarily mean spirited. Just straight up fair game amongst grown people who make conscious decisions. So yeah, I could see how the honesty bit is important like you're saying.
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Raisor
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2/5/2017 9:15:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 8:23:23 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 2/5/2017 6:52:04 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/5/2017 6:12:17 PM, FourTrouble wrote:
It absolutely empowers them. And I'm all about people empowering themselves, within reasonable limits of course. The issue arises when women, or anyone else, abuse their sexuality.

What do you think the reasonable limits are? What does "abusing" qualify as?

There's nothing wrong with expressing your sexuality. If you want to show off your body, go for it. If a guy wants to buy you a drink because he thinks you're hot, cool. If your boss promotes you because he wants to fvck you, awesome.

The problem is intentional deception. For example, as I mentioned to Raisor, dishonest flirting. Using your sexuality dishonestly, to take advantage of someone, is abuse. That's where I draw the line in terms of reasonable limits. You're free to use your sexuality how you see fit, and to empower yourself through it, up until the point where you're lying to people about your sexual intentions. Again, as I said to Raisor, that sort of thing isn't just fraud, but it also undermines consent. It's dangerous.

As a blonde with big boobs and a certain demeanor, style of dress, voice, or variety of other factors both within and outside of her control, some women might get dismissed or be pre-judged based on appearance or physical traits. They might experience discrimination and bias that is detrimental.

This happens, for sure. But we're trying to change that, so that people don't discriminate for these sorts of things.

So if a woman flirts or acts coy with men she has no interest in, because they might say give her a ride or offer her something else (a favor or something) then is it wrong or morally impermissible?

If the person knows you're "flirting" or "acting coy" solely to get a favor, there's nothing wrong about it. Take sugar daddies, for example. I recently went on a date with a girl who has only ever dated sugar daddies (she was 24, and apparently I was her first "legit" date). I was intrigued, so we spent most of the night talking about that. The men she dated were typically married, and were interested solely in her body. Meanwhile, she was interested solely in the monthly allowances they provided, and in the constant wining/dining. There was no dishonesty; it was clear how each side felt about the other. I think that sort of honesty legitimizes any use of your sexuality.

IOWs is it okay for women to sort of rectify this "imbalance" in nature/society (of sexism and physical inferiority) by using certain things to their advantage in a strategic way? I'm sure most people feel only a certain level of manipulation is tolerable. Like, minimal flirting or something.

I don't think there are inherent "imbalances" between men/women. Yes, sexism exists, but it's not specific to women; both genders are hurt by it. In terms of "physical inferiority," that's entirely irrelevant in modern society. Men can't use physical force to rape or enslave women.

I would love to hear more about that sugar daddy girl. I've heard there are people who do that, never met anyone who did. I mean that's basically prostitution right? Is that how she supported herself or was it more of a thing she did to make her life a little more interesting?
We gonna pull up like the ice cream truck
Danielle
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2/5/2017 9:30:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 9:15:57 PM, Raisor wrote:
I would love to hear more about that sugar daddy girl. I've heard there are people who do that, never met anyone who did. I mean that's basically prostitution right? Is that how she supported herself or was it more of a thing she did to make her life a little more interesting?

Same. And I know a couple of girls who do it. They're very hush hush about it (I can see why). Two of my friends claim there are guys that give them things for being mean and bossing them around on webcam. They'll say things like "Send me this purse" or "Get me these concert tickets now" (I'm sure they throw in a 'daddy' at the end, amirite?) and the guys will. Apparently the guys like to be told what to do and get off on being sugar daddies; maybe it makes them feel powerful or wanted by younger, pretty women. Another girl I know dances on a webcam for money and apparently makes decent cash. She's also an attorney for a huge bank so it's not like she needs the money or is uneducated. Interesting.
Raisor
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2/5/2017 9:47:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 9:30:09 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/5/2017 9:15:57 PM, Raisor wrote:
I would love to hear more about that sugar daddy girl. I've heard there are people who do that, never met anyone who did. I mean that's basically prostitution right? Is that how she supported herself or was it more of a thing she did to make her life a little more interesting?

Same. And I know a couple of girls who do it. They're very hush hush about it (I can see why). Two of my friends claim there are guys that give them things for being mean and bossing them around on webcam. They'll say things like "Send me this purse" or "Get me these concert tickets now" (I'm sure they throw in a 'daddy' at the end, amirite?) and the guys will. Apparently the guys like to be told what to do and get off on being sugar daddies; maybe it makes them feel powerful or wanted by younger, pretty women. Another girl I know dances on a webcam for money and apparently makes decent cash. She's also an attorney for a huge bank so it's not like she needs the money or is uneducated. Interesting.

There would be so much risk doing that for your attorney friend. Like you've spent years building your career and it could all be undone by somehow getting doxxed.

There was a good Love and Radio episode about a woman who is an Internet dominatrix. She does those sorts of humiliation stuff and had a really down to earth view on it as a business. More power to you if you can do that work sustainably. she got into it accidentally- when she was a teenager guys in chat rooms would ask her to send them stuff. She figured out she could make a lot of money mailing random garbage to strangers and basically grew a brand. People don't think about it, but if you are smart you can make a lot of money.
We gonna pull up like the ice cream truck
RonPaulConservative
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2/5/2017 9:50:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 5:27:48 AM, Danielle wrote:
Now as much as I'm a feminist, as much as I value women and as much as I rally against the status quo treatment of women in various avenues of society, the fact is that we (people in society) are animals. And while I expect humans to behave in a way that is civilized and respectful, we are largely driven by sexual instincts as part of our evolutionary psychology and physiology. Thus while I find sexual assault to be inexcusable, and outward flirtation to be inappropriate out of context (say in a professional setting) I do think it's unrealistic to expect men, or all of us really, to abandon our innate sexual urges and desires - which often includes objectifying the sex we're attracted to.

What's the problem with objectification? It isn't morally wrong as you aren't harming anyone. If a woman saw me as an object I would just ignore it- as long as she doesn't violate my liberties by say attacking me or something.

This is something that women have to endure far more-so than men both in terms of volume and harmful backlash. Guys may get checked out on the street, but they are often not harassed and almost never feel threatened. There are a lot of aspects about being a woman that just suck or are unfair and this is one of them. However, we get to give birth and perpetuate the human race which men cannot do - so there's that. And there are other benefits and advantages to being a woman as well.

Endured? Unless a man is doing something to you you aren't enduring anything. You are just getting offended over something that is of no consequence. If a man DOES harass you, it is well within your rights to warn him, and, if he doesn't stop, pepper spray him. Better yet just show him your gun and he'll never bother you again.

One of them is that women, more-so than men, have the ability to use their sexuality to their advantage. One of my exes used to do it all the time, whether it was getting free drinks, rides, entry to clubs, parties, help with something, weed, favors, etc. She was always flirting, subconsciously or not, and definitely using her body for attention. It frustrated me, but from her perspective, I could see why she thought it was fine (uh, more so if she were single) because she was getting something out of it for her/us, and using her femininity and sexuality as a form of empowerment and to her advantage.

More like being a con-woman, I don't respect con artists.

So I was talking about this with my friend the other night, and thought about a recent thread where YYW commented that he didn't like most women, because they often tried to flirt with him to get him to do things for them. I could see that happening and being annoying, but I understand why women do it and I don't fault them for it. In my perspective, if women just have to accept the way things are insofar as their femininity/sexuality being a detriment in many cases, then it is perfectly fair game and in fact smart (and evolutionarily prudent) to exploit that to their advantage whenever possible. Considering it can also be a threat and a detriment, I think using it to get ahead is fine since in many cases it can be used to oppress you, suppress you, harm you or leave you behind. Does that make sense?

Again, I don't date cons

Discuss: Do you think it's unfair or unreasonable for women to use their sexuality to their advantage? Do you think it diminishes their push for gender equality, or do you think it's a form of female empowerment? Do you think evolution designed women to be able to use their sexual prowess the way males use physical prowess (to exhibit dominance) in the animal kingdom? Do you expect more from humans than to behave like the animal kingdom?

Yes- why is it that this is rigged for women. Women are given blatant privilege in sexuality! Think about it, if a woman demands sex from a man, he is likely to give it to her with a smile on his face, but just switch the genders around and the woman would likely refuse just because he demanded.

Men have to ask women out on a date, men pay for the food and drink, men have to propose, to buy engagement rings, his family has to pay for the wedding and he is likely to be the breadwinner and work all day to find the woman's existence.

I'm done with the oppression and I am done with the matriarchy! Men are basically women's slaves and that's why I am joining the men's liberation movement.
"In the name of welfare and equality, the twentieth-century liberal has come to favor a revival of the very policies of state intervention and paternalism against which classical liberalism fought. In the very act of turning back the clock to seventeenth-century mercantilism, he is fond of castigating true liberals as reactionary [opposing progress]!" - Capitalism and Freedom, by Milton Friedman, Introduction.
RonPaulConservative
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2/5/2017 9:53:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 5:45:45 AM, Hayd wrote:
I agree with you completely until you talk about women using sexuality to their advantage.

I would fault women for using their sexuality to their advantage. It is simply annoying and immature. Every popular kid at my high school that I dislike is hollow inside and the girls use their sexuality to further pursue their plastic wants. Any person that I can think of that would use sexuality to their advantage would be in that group, and I do fault them for it.

The argument that women can use it to get ahead does not work, as there should be no need to get ahead. Women should not have to be enpowered by using sexuality to their advantage in the first place.

The question of sexual roles is very interesting though. At first glance, women ought to be subordinate sexually to men because of the intrinsic physical inferiority of women, and their sexual wants. But then, what even is gender? Its merely a social role attatched to those of a certain sex, what bond makes us have to follow traditional sexual roles?

Yes! Gender roles are stupid and make no sense. That's shyiNg a masculinist and support the men's liberation movement. Traditional Gender roles set us up to be women's slaves- we are expected to work all day and to sacrifice for women. It's all matriarchy propaganda shnoz. I am a free man!
"In the name of welfare and equality, the twentieth-century liberal has come to favor a revival of the very policies of state intervention and paternalism against which classical liberalism fought. In the very act of turning back the clock to seventeenth-century mercantilism, he is fond of castigating true liberals as reactionary [opposing progress]!" - Capitalism and Freedom, by Milton Friedman, Introduction.
Danielle
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2/5/2017 11:16:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 9:50:29 PM, RonPaulConservative wrote:

While I agree with you that physical endangerment should be the only thing legislated against, I completely disagree with you that there is not harm in sexism and hyper-sexualization. If you read the rest of the thread, you will see that a fellow member admitted to not being able to respect women professionally. I'm not going to analyze his post (especially because I don't remember the details), but women, on balance, experience more harmful sexism than men. Studies show that people implicitly trust men more or consider men to be inherently more competent. Moreover, men don't endure the same fears when it comes to sexual assault; women have to be vigilant against attack whereas men do not feel threatened and do not have to be as guarded as women.

The problem with objectification can be that one is regarded or dismissed based solely or largely on physical, sexual prowess, rather than one's competence or character. It makes people feel devalued and degraded. However, I've acknowledged that some level of objectification is natural and therefore not blameworthy. How you act on it matters though. You said you aren't "enduring" anything unless someone is attacking you, but people have to endure being stared at, being spoken to in a disrespectful way, not getting promoted or hired based on sexual expectations or stereotypes, etc.

I also find it interesting that you refer to women who flirt with men as "con artists" even though they aren't physically attacking anyone. What is so bad that people have to ENDURE by a little harmless, casual flirting? Similarly men don't have to pay for dates. That is social conservatism that is perpetuated by people with antiquated values and outdated social expectations - people you probably largely identify with.
RonPaulConservative
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2/5/2017 11:34:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 11:16:11 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/5/2017 9:50:29 PM, RonPaulConservative wrote:

While I agree with you that physical endangerment should be the only thing legislated against, I completely disagree with you that there is not harm in sexism and hyper-sexualization. If you read the rest of the thread, you will see that a fellow member admitted to not being able to respect women professionally. I'm not going to analyze his post (especially because I don't remember the details), but women, on balance, experience more harmful sexism than men. Studies show that people implicitly trust men more or consider men to be inherently more competent. Moreover, men don't endure the same fears when it comes to sexual assault; women have to be vigilant against attack whereas men do not feel threatened and do not have to be as guarded as women.

First of all, if women use their sexuality to get free stuff and go about sexualizing and objectifying THEMSELVES, then obviously I am going to be unable to respect such women.
Second of all, men are actually raped more often than women, it's just far less reported than women rapes.

The problem with objectification can be that one is regarded or dismissed based solely or largely on physical, sexual prowess, rather than one's competence or character. It makes people feel devalued and degraded. However, I've acknowledged that some level of objectification is natural and therefore not blameworthy. How you act on it matters though. You said you aren't "enduring" anything unless someone is attacking you, but people have to endure being stared at, being spoken to in a disrespectful way, not getting promoted or hired based on sexual expectations or stereotypes, etc.

Girls stare at me all the time, it doesn't bother me.

I also find it interesting that you refer to women who flirt with men as "con artists" even though they aren't physically attacking anyone. What is so bad that people have to ENDURE by a little harmless, casual flirting? Similarly men don't have to pay for dates. That is social conservatism that is perpetuated by people with antiquated values and outdated social expectations - people you probably largely identify with.

Not flirt, I said women who use their sexuality to get free stuff are con artists. Sure men aren't forced to pay for dates, but it's always the person who invites the other to a date that pays, and women never ask men out to dates. Con woman is defined as:
"a woman swindler who uses a confidence game to cheat or defraud people."
"In the name of welfare and equality, the twentieth-century liberal has come to favor a revival of the very policies of state intervention and paternalism against which classical liberalism fought. In the very act of turning back the clock to seventeenth-century mercantilism, he is fond of castigating true liberals as reactionary [opposing progress]!" - Capitalism and Freedom, by Milton Friedman, Introduction.
FourTrouble
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2/5/2017 11:47:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 9:15:57 PM, Raisor wrote:
I would love to hear more about that sugar daddy girl. I've heard there are people who do that, never met anyone who did. I mean that's basically prostitution right? Is that how she supported herself or was it more of a thing she did to make her life a little more interesting?

Yeah, it's prostitution. Which I don't have a problem with.

She did it to support herself, while she was in college, and a couple years after. She said it was addictive, and that it was a struggle to stop. She paid off her college loans, and that was the big motivation to break it off. In terms of what the guys gave her, it was what'd you imagine. He paid for whatever they did together, bought her sh!t (like a nice TV, or whatever), and gave her a weekly or monthly allowance. It's very much a "daddy" role, as the term implies.

I've met a few different girls who've done this sort of thing over the years. When I lived in Miami, there was another girl, in a similar type of relationship, the guy had put her up in a fancy apartment, gave her a massive allowance, for a non-sexual, non-romantic, "father-daughter relationship." They had found each other online, on one of those sugar daddy websites.

It's definitely an interesting phenomenon.
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FourTrouble
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2/5/2017 11:49:51 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 2/5/2017 9:47:16 PM, Raisor wrote:
There would be so much risk doing that for your attorney friend. Like you've spent years building your career and it could all be undone by somehow getting doxxed.

There was a good Love and Radio episode about a woman who is an Internet dominatrix. She does those sorts of humiliation stuff and had a really down to earth view on it as a business. More power to you if you can do that work sustainably. she got into it accidentally- when she was a teenager guys in chat rooms would ask her to send them stuff. She figured out she could make a lot of money mailing random garbage to strangers and basically grew a brand. People don't think about it, but if you are smart you can make a lot of money.

Yeah, I've always thought that'd be a great way to make enough money to retire really fvcking young and live out your days in leisure.
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