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SolonKR
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10/27/2017 6:05:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 10/27/2017 12:59:30 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/27/2017 12:09:02 AM, SolonKR wrote:
At 10/3/2017 11:29:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
Everyone involved in giving hormone blockers to "trans" 8 year olds should be put to death

I realize you're hyperbolic here

I'm not being hyperbolic. Doctors who destroy the endocrine system of a child to socially signal should die--and publicly

Geez, did you cheer when Dr. Tiller was killed for providing abortions?

but out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on this article: http://www.goodhousekeeping.com...


"With all of that, when Kai turned 4, I finally let her transition. "

Yeah, if you can read that sentence without a sinking sensation of horror in your stomach I don't see the point in having this discussion with you. The article is seriously contending that a f*cking two year old, who can't even conceive of the concept of gender, is fit to make a life altering decision contrary to his nature.

She pushed for it from age two, transitioned (which I read as socially transitioned) at four, and is now six. I realize that's not any older, but you're downplaying how long she's identified with femininity.

Also, the article, from what I see, has nothing to do with medical transition. If it did, I'd have more reservations.

Note what the article doesn't discuss: what happens when the cruel hand of reality shatters the illusion? This child is objectively a boy and, unless drastic changes are made, the child will become a man. His brain his a male brain. His genitals are male. Again, because this bears repeating, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT A FOUR YEAR OLD. Unless this parent repents and changes course a grim fate awaits this child. Best case scenario he grows up to be a man, mentally scarred by the actions of deluded mother raising him as a girl. More likely his story does not end that happily.

Obviously, she's biologically male. Presumably at that time, that's when they'll start talking about hormone blockers and the like. Most of this is emotionally-charged, so I don't know how to respond.

You saying you're "not familiar" with the science is a cop out--you don't have to be a scientist to realize that blocking puberty, a natural and necessary process the body MUST go through, is a bad idea. Raising your child in a way that directly contradicts objective reality is a bad idea. The child's life is a lie.

It's not a cop out when that's not what the damn article is about in the first place. Jesus, this isn't a battle to the death; we're having a discussion.

As for "objective reality", I hold the proposition that gender and sex are different things. One can be biologically male and still identify with the female gender.

As for nature: I mean, humans naturally and necessarily die, but I don't think immortality is a bad thing. From what I've read, the known side effect of suppressing puberty is reduced bone density, which is a problem, and that's balanced against the emotional anguish a transgender individual is suffering as a result of puberty. In any case, this argument was bad when it was used against gay people ("it's unnatural!"), and I don't find it any more convincing here.

The entire article, to the extent we can even trust the mom's account of things, is clearly the rationalization of a parent who failed to do her job. Consider the following:

"I did everything I could think of to cut off that kind of talk. There were time-outs, so many time-outs. There were spankings and yelling matches and endless prayers."

The parent tried disciplinary methods (including "yelling matches" with a toddler?) that clearly did not work and caused the child to double down on the undesired behavior. Eventually the mother got tired of this and decided to just go along with it. Now it is she who is doubling down, as she tries to avoid the obvious conclusion that her child, raised as a "girl" from his earliest memory, is going to be traumatized when he realizes that he has a penis and that only men have penises.

The yelling matches thing is off-putting, but I also think you're being a bit unfair to her. What would you have done in this situation? And what, do you think her mother has never TOLD her she has a penis in desperation?

In any case, there's probably always an element of rationalization in anything a parent does for their child. What I find more important is reducing the suffering of the child. I don't know how you would reduce that in another way.

This article DID change my opinion. I didn't realize that they were pushing this on literal toddlers nor did I realize that otherwise rational people would consider this to be anything but an extreme moral horror.

Who's pushing anything?

Also, I think my stance is being misconstrued, so let me iterate:
I'm not saying 4-year olds should medically transition. When it comes to puberty hitting, I'm more torn because puberty presents an immediate emotional issue to the child.
I disagree with you about whether younger people can be "really" transgender, and I have a more "live and let live" philosophy when it comes to how we deal with an issue like that. I think that trying to force transgender kids to live according to the dictates of their biological sex will only cause mental anguish.
Bailey <3

"For often evil men are rich, and good men poor;
But we will not exchange with them
Our virtue for their wealth, since one abides always,
While riches change their owners every day." - Solon, Plutarch's "Life of Solon"
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,762
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10/27/2017 6:28:40 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 10/27/2017 1:36:25 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 10/27/2017 12:59:30 AM, thett3 wrote:

The parent tried disciplinary methods (including "yelling matches" with a toddler?) that clearly did not work and caused the child to double down on the undesired behavior. Eventually the mother got tired of this and decided to just go along with it. Now it is she who is doubling down, as she tries to avoid the obvious conclusion that her child, raised as a "girl" from his earliest memory, is going to be traumatized when he realizes that he has a penis and that only men have penises.

This article DID change my opinion. I didn't realize that they were pushing this on literal toddlers nor did I realize that otherwise rational people would consider this to be anything but an extreme moral horror.

The whole trans thing has a dash of Maoism to it; the idea that a FVCKING TODDLER overrules an adult on matters of basic concept; why? What is the justification for this? If I toddler says 'I want to touch that stove', we don't let them, because we know that they are not at the stage where they can understand that it is bad. So the toddler says 'I want to be a girl' and we say 'sure, honey, lets radically alter your physiology to fit your probably fleeting delusion!'. I honestly feel bad for the mom; she's someone who had a child with a mild problem, tried to tamp it down in unsuccessful ways, and then was preyed upon by some ideologues and made to think that putting her child down a path of ultimate self-mutilation is morally justifiable. What is this woman's internal life going to be like a decade down the road? She will never be able to correct course without coming to terms with the fact that she was duped into being an accessory to her child's abuse, so unless she is an extremely strong person she will go on justifying every excess, every horror to herself in order to avoid that crushing realization. It really is horrific.

Trans stuff is also, in a way, the ultimate dead end of consumerism and materialism. Wise and mature societies, when someone is unhappy, tells them to accept the things that they cannot change and then work on reforming their own soul. Only in a late capitalist waste land would a child who is mildly unhappy (not really, even, just a little bit confused) be sold a cocktail of drugs and staggered plastic surgeries as the solution to their problems. Every setback must have a purchasable, well-marketed solution; God forbid a person stop and engage in critical introspection, or be told by society what their own limits are.

+99999999999

'To subdue one's self and return to propriety, is perfect virtue.' (Analects 12.1)
I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens. - keithprosser

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 9,649
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10/27/2017 11:49:09 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 10/27/2017 6:28:40 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:

+99999999999

'To subdue one's self and return to propriety, is perfect virtue.' (Analects 12.1)

On another tangent, in the West modern Chinese people are often seen as stereotypical organized, soulless, and efficient. This is extrapolated backwards into the bast, to see them as a sort of 'beehive civilization' from the beginning. I think that this is innacurate after exposure to Chinese cultural history; I think that industrialization + the Cultural revolution hurt them immensely and I hope that they can grapple back some of their traditional crafts and culture. The Catholic agrarian/personalist Peter Maurin wrote a short bit on his conversation with a Chinese man pre-WWII (great depression, so 1930s) and it makes me immensely sad to read it today, knowing what happens later:

A Chinese says:
"I thought I had become Westernized but now I am becoming repatriated. The material progress of America had dazzled me. I wished while there to transplant what I saw to China. But now that I am home again I see that our two civilizations have irreconcilable differences. Yours is a machine civilization; ours is a handicraft civilization. Your people work in factories; our people work in shops. Your people produce quantity things that are alike; our people produce quality things that are different. What would Western industrialism do to us? Our people would become robots. Our cultural traditions would be destroyed."

The fact is that industrial/capitalist/individualist society is eminently portable; it can infect any society of sufficient collective intelligence, and immediately begins burning the delicate, hard-to-replace cultural ecosystem that sustains a society for short-term material gains. The 'Faustian spirit' the Spengler criticized as a uniquely Western weakness is a more universal human one (that certainly originated in the West), and if it works its way through all of the human fuel that the world has to offer then the only healthy societies will also be the most savage ones. I really do think that this is the nature of the Fermi paradox: that in order to advance this far technologically, a culture must destroy its capacity to self-propagate and will subsequently be subsumed by a less advanced but more robust competitor.
"Partout ou vous verrez un autel, la se trouve la civilisation."
- Joseph de Maistre -

"Woe that I live in bitter days,
As God is setting like a sun
And in his place, as lord and slave,
Man raises forth his heinous throne."
- Translation of 'Rhyfel', by Hedd Wyn -

Virtutem videant intabescantque relicta
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,762
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10/29/2017 7:39:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 10/27/2017 11:49:09 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 10/27/2017 6:28:40 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:

+99999999999

'To subdue one's self and return to propriety, is perfect virtue.' (Analects 12.1)

On another tangent, in the West modern Chinese people are often seen as stereotypical organized, soulless, and efficient. This is extrapolated backwards into the bast, to see them as a sort of 'beehive civilization' from the beginning. I think that this is innacurate after exposure to Chinese cultural history; I think that industrialization + the Cultural revolution hurt them immensely and I hope that they can grapple back some of their traditional crafts and culture.
I think you're spot on. Really, this sort of stereotype bears very little resemblance to the Chinese culture that I know and grew up with. One of the standard texts we study in high school states throughout that Chinese culture is a culture of qing '(interpersonal) sentiments';

There was a strand of philosophical thought in the Zhou Dynasty, Mohism, that does suit the description - they are said to be the world's first consequentialist philosophers, and valued three consequences in particular: a sizeable population (zhong - seen as a desirable outcome and not a problem at the time), wealth (fu), and order (zhi). They were very popular at the beginning, and were some of the best engineers when they started, but have all but disappeared by the Han Dynasty, when Confucianism became the orthodox school of thought. (By contrast, Daoism, one of whose doctrines is a deep scepticism of machinery, survived very well and thrived in some ages.)

The Catholic agrarian/personalist Peter Maurin wrote a short bit on his conversation with a Chinese man pre-WWII (great depression, so 1930s) and it makes me immensely sad to read it today, knowing what happens later:

A Chinese says:
"I thought I had become Westernized but now I am becoming repatriated. The material progress of America had dazzled me. I wished while there to transplant what I saw to China. But now that I am home again I see that our two civilizations have irreconcilable differences. Yours is a machine civilization; ours is a handicraft civilization. Your people work in factories; our people work in shops. Your people produce quantity things that are alike; our people produce quality things that are different. What would Western industrialism do to us? Our people would become robots. Our cultural traditions would be destroyed."
To this day, industrialisation is still thought of a Western import (Mao's slogan 'surpass Britain and catch up with America' remains popular to this day), and we do lament the loss of traditional crafts and its replacement by modern commercial products. I don't think most people still harbour these extreme conservative sentiments to this day, though. My parents were children/teens around the time of industrialisation, and they had pretty romantic memories of those days of rapid economic development (which has slowed down now), especially my mum.

The fact is that industrial/capitalist/individualist society is eminently portable; it can infect any society of sufficient collective intelligence, and immediately begins burning the delicate, hard-to-replace cultural ecosystem that sustains a society for short-term material gains. The 'Faustian spirit' the Spengler criticized as a uniquely Western weakness is a more universal human one (that certainly originated in the West), and if it works its way through all of the human fuel that the world has to offer then the only healthy societies will also be the most savage ones. I really do think that this is the nature of the Fermi paradox: that in order to advance this far technologically, a culture must destroy its capacity to self-propagate and will subsequently be subsumed by a less advanced but more robust competitor.
I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens. - keithprosser

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,762
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10/29/2017 7:53:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I'm just here to vent about something. I don't want to post this on Facebook as I don't want to pick fights with feminists/leftists/whatever that I know IRL.

The decision of the student's union of my school to temporarily transform certain toilets into 'all-gender' toilets is stupid. It is wrongheaded in its intention, inane in its execution, and may lead to disastrous results if the school responds to their calls.

I've never been a big fan of the Student's Union, which for the last couple of years has been championing an ideology that is neither feasible nor desirable (independence). But at least, their support for independence isn't something they can actually concretely act upon, unlike the Catalans. What they're doing now, however, stands a chance to be backed by school authorities in the future, which I find very disturbing. (Equally concerning was their questionnaire, which was filled with loaded questions.)

Our school is very strong in terms of accessibility, thanks to the efforts of the equal opportunities unit; there are a plenty of toilets for the disabled. If a person does not wish to enter a restroom intended for his/her own sex, he/she has a plenty of choices. There is absolutely no reason to open 'genderless' toilets to cater for a tiny minority of students with confused identities.
I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens. - keithprosser

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,762
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10/29/2017 7:56:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Really, if they really want to do something about this, they can change the names of disabled toilets so that they also include trans people in their description. This is what I've seen certain malls do these days. I still don't think it's the best idea because it gives explicit recognition to transsexual people, but at least it's much more reasonable than converting normal toilets to 'all-gender' ones or wasting space to construct new 'all-gender' toilets.
I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens. - keithprosser

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Swagnarok
Posts: 1,991
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11/1/2017 4:06:16 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Harambe did literally nothing wrong.
The link below will take you to a Site that's just like DDO in almost every respect:
https://www.debateart.com...

It still has a few bugs, but I think these can be fixed. I'd advise maintaining a presence both here and there.
Sui_Generis
Posts: 4,650
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11/1/2017 3:40:10 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 7/28/2017 7:30:37 PM, Danielle wrote:
I found a portrait of you

https://www.instagram.com...-/
"How true it is that words are but vague shadows of the volumes we mean. Little audible links they are, chaining together great inaudible feelings and purposes."

"Nobody wants to be in your sig." ~Emilrose
Sui_Generis
Posts: 4,650
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11/2/2017 4:25:35 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 7/28/2017 7:30:37 PM, Danielle wrote:
I found a portrait of you

https://www.instagram.com...-/
"How true it is that words are but vague shadows of the volumes we mean. Little audible links they are, chaining together great inaudible feelings and purposes."

"Nobody wants to be in your sig." ~Emilrose
Devilry
Posts: 5,093
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11/2/2017 6:53:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 11/2/2017 6:43:37 PM, warren42 wrote:
Rape is a far more heinous crime than murder.

Only because women are high-strung af.

Why isn't rape just like receiving a beating, only half way through the dude decides he just wants to squirt you with some sticky gunky sh*t?
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Devilry
Posts: 5,093
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11/2/2017 7:00:45 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
I mean, not that it ain't an awful thing. But rape is just the monster looking at you.

There's a lot worse that he'll do to be having nightmares about.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
YYW
Posts: 44,673
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11/7/2017 4:39:59 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
The American trade deficit with China is good for the United States' economy.

America benefits more from China than China benefits from America.

Chinese steel is better than Russian steel.

Canadian lumber is better than Russian lumber.
GrimlyF
Posts: 1,305
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11/7/2017 6:02:22 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 10/27/2017 3:07:48 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/27/2017 2:50:57 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/27/2017 1:47:19 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/27/2017 1:39:35 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/3/2017 9:56:34 PM, thett3 wrote:
Anti-white sentiment is the only thing unifying the modern left

FTFY, I assume you made a typo bc your OP was literally retarded.

edited it back, and please dont use the "R" word

sorry, what do you people prefer to call yourselves?

A different R word:

"Right"

"Rong".
Sui_Generis
Posts: 4,650
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11/7/2017 2:46:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 11/2/2017 6:53:24 PM, Devilry wrote:
At 11/2/2017 6:43:37 PM, warren42 wrote:
Rape is a far more heinous crime than murder.

Only because women are high-strung af.

Why isn't rape just like receiving a beating, only half way through the dude decides he just wants to squirt you with some sticky gunky sh*t?

I literally just discussed THIS VERY CONCEPT at a social salon.
"How true it is that words are but vague shadows of the volumes we mean. Little audible links they are, chaining together great inaudible feelings and purposes."

"Nobody wants to be in your sig." ~Emilrose
Chaos88
Posts: 4,097
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11/7/2017 3:29:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 11/7/2017 2:46:48 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:

I literally just discussed THIS VERY CONCEPT at a social salon.

What is a social salon?
thett3
Posts: 15,370
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11/7/2017 5:54:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 11/7/2017 6:02:22 AM, GrimlyF wrote:
At 10/27/2017 3:07:48 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/27/2017 2:50:57 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/27/2017 1:47:19 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/27/2017 1:39:35 AM, Raisor wrote:
At 10/3/2017 9:56:34 PM, thett3 wrote:
Anti-white sentiment is the only thing unifying the modern left

FTFY, I assume you made a typo bc your OP was literally retarded.

edited it back, and please dont use the "R" word

sorry, what do you people prefer to call yourselves?

A different R word:

"Right"

"Rong".

Well meme'd my friend!
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Mharman
Posts: 5,030
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11/7/2017 6:44:10 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
1500 nac
Rest in Peace, Lannan13. You will be missed.

"I didn't spend much time talking to Lannan, and I wish I had. He was a chill guy. Really kind, too. Not once did I ever see him get angry. Lannan and Anger were polar opposites, never coming in contact." -Mharman
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Sui_Generis
Posts: 4,650
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11/8/2017 8:57:45 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 11/7/2017 3:29:03 PM, Chaos88 wrote:
At 11/7/2017 2:46:48 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:
I literally just discussed THIS VERY CONCEPT at a social salon.
What is a social salon?
https://en.wikipedia.org...
"How true it is that words are but vague shadows of the volumes we mean. Little audible links they are, chaining together great inaudible feelings and purposes."

"Nobody wants to be in your sig." ~Emilrose
Sui_Generis
Posts: 4,650
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11/8/2017 8:58:14 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 11/8/2017 8:57:45 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:
At 11/7/2017 3:29:03 PM, Chaos88 wrote:
At 11/7/2017 2:46:48 PM, Sui_Generis wrote:
I literally just discussed THIS VERY CONCEPT at a social salon.
What is a social salon?
https://en.wikipedia.org...
pretty proud of my URL hacking abilities to get this URL to render correctly lol.. unlike this

https://en.wikipedia.org...(gathering)
"How true it is that words are but vague shadows of the volumes we mean. Little audible links they are, chaining together great inaudible feelings and purposes."

"Nobody wants to be in your sig." ~Emilrose
Mharman
Posts: 5,030
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11/9/2017 10:20:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Roblox isn't as bad as some say it is.
Rest in Peace, Lannan13. You will be missed.

"I didn't spend much time talking to Lannan, and I wish I had. He was a chill guy. Really kind, too. Not once did I ever see him get angry. Lannan and Anger were polar opposites, never coming in contact." -Mharman
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A category 7 hurricane of spam has struck DDO. It is advised to go to the nearest nuclear bomb shelter. The outside threads have been decimated.