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Overwatch Mafia Endgame

TUF
Posts: 23,816
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1/31/2017 4:20:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Thanks everyone for playing! TOWN WINS!

All night actions: https://docs.google.com...

All Roles: https://docs.google.com...

Funny quotes from DP1 and 2: https://docs.google.com...

MVP's: Yraelz, FourTrouble, Smithereens, F-16 (for town), Danielle, TheFlex.

Great game everyone! I'll have more comments later.
TUF
Posts: 23,816
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1/31/2017 4:26:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 4:23:24 AM, Yraelz wrote:
Mafia PM!

It's gonna take me a minute to find a way to upload that. and i'll fix the privacy.
Yraelz
Posts: 5,300
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1/31/2017 4:31:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 4:26:21 AM, warren42 wrote:
Anyone wanna help me out with my play?

As a townie your thought process should never be, "what could I do right now to make myself look more townie?" If someone asks you for reads, and you aren't that certain of 75% of the players, then just say that you're not that certain about them.

There have been countless games where someone goes, "Yraelz, post your complete reads list" and I post something like:

Yraelz Says
Player A + B - Leaning scum for reasons
Player C - Probably town for reasons
Players D through J - I don't have a good feel for right now.

Your goal as a townie should be to strive for transparency, not towniness.
warren42
Posts: 4,456
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1/31/2017 4:38:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 4:31:30 AM, Yraelz wrote:
At 1/31/2017 4:26:21 AM, warren42 wrote:
Anyone wanna help me out with my play?

As a townie your thought process should never be, "what could I do right now to make myself look more townie?"

Why not?

If someone asks you for reads, and you aren't that certain of 75% of the players, then just say that you're not that certain about them.

Is this about VoT or F16/Fire? Because I wanted what I've learned is called a "policy lynch" on fire, and genuinely made a mistake on F16. VoT that makes sense


There have been countless games where someone goes, "Yraelz, post your complete reads list" and I post something like:

Yraelz Says
Player A + B - Leaning scum for reasons
Player C - Probably town for reasons
Players D through J - I don't have a good feel for right now.

Your goal as a townie should be to strive for transparency, not towniness.

Don't they go hand in hand?
TUF
Posts: 23,816
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1/31/2017 4:39:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 4:37:34 AM, Yraelz wrote:
At 1/31/2017 4:36:19 AM, TUF wrote:
Find me a site that can take my full screen upload plz

Chrome extension: https://chrome.google.com...

I have a screenshot of it. Need a website that will take the upload, and let you zoom in on it to actually see it
Yraelz
Posts: 5,300
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1/31/2017 4:41:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 4:39:28 AM, TUF wrote:
I have a screenshot of it. Need a website that will take the upload, and let you zoom in on it to actually see it

Probably works: https://postimage.io...
warren42
Posts: 4,456
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1/31/2017 4:45:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 4:36:19 AM, TUF wrote:
At 1/31/2017 4:23:24 AM, Yraelz wrote:
Mafia PM!

Find me a site that can take my full screen upload plz

I really like what Think did with Equilibrium Mafia, he used QuickTopic so he could make it public afterward
Vaarka
Posts: 13,073
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1/31/2017 2:41:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yay
Beginner Series Mafia Mod. PM if interested***
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"I bet you're thinking right now 'haha I'm a genius'. well you're not" - Valkrin

"You're too young to be so wise, mate. Tone it down a little." - Devilry

*puffs bubble pipe*
FourTrouble
Posts: 16,245
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1/31/2017 5:47:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 4:20:18 AM, TUF wrote:
MVP's: Yraelz, FourTrouble, Smithereens, F-16 (for town), Danielle, TheFlex.

I know that a lot of people have given F-16 sh!t for leaving, but the reality is, he did the mafia a favor.

Every recent game I've played with him, he was scum. He stuck it out. And he was a detriment to the team. I think he knew that, and he knew that replacing out gave his team a better shot at winning the game.

And, Danielle survived a long time. She made smart decisions (e.g. framing Warren/Smith). I think, overall, F-16 isn't an MVP, for either team. He did a service to his team by allowing a better player to take his place, and it paid off, overall. It's pretty harsh to call his replace-out a town-MVP worthy move.
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Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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1/31/2017 7:49:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
One thing I wanted to comment on was how role blocking works, either in this game or in general. The mason recruiter was supposed to be 2-shot. We only had the role blocker for 2 nights (which was a huge detriment for the mafia) thanks to Rosalie's god-awful play... I actually agree with Flex that it seemed outright traitorous. She literally went out of her way to sabotage us.

Anyway, we role blocked the mason recruiter one night successfully. That should have been a wasted shot as far as I know. Of course every mod does it differently, and I guess that's ultimately what it comes down to, but I thought that was pretty bastard to be honest. The whole point of being X-shot is that you only get a limited number of times to TRY and successfully use your role, no? So if the scum team strategically blocks a X-shot whatever, I don't think they should have another chance to effectively use their role. But I dunno, maybe you guys disagree.
Vaarka
Posts: 13,073
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1/31/2017 7:58:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 7:49:09 PM, Danielle wrote:
One thing I wanted to comment on was how role blocking works, either in this game or in general. The mason recruiter was supposed to be 2-shot. We only had the role blocker for 2 nights (which was a huge detriment for the mafia) thanks to Rosalie's god-awful play... I actually agree with Flex that it seemed outright traitorous. She literally went out of her way to sabotage us.

Anyway, we role blocked the mason recruiter one night successfully. That should have been a wasted shot as far as I know. Of course every mod does it differently, and I guess that's ultimately what it comes down to, but I thought that was pretty bastard to be honest. The whole point of being X-shot is that you only get a limited number of times to TRY and successfully use your role, no? So if the scum team strategically blocks a X-shot whatever, I don't think they should have another chance to effectively use their role. But I dunno, maybe you guys disagree.

That's how it would work in the beginner series, and it confused me at first in the game when he still had his two shots
Beginner Series Mafia Mod. PM if interested***
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"I bet you're thinking right now 'haha I'm a genius'. well you're not" - Valkrin

"You're too young to be so wise, mate. Tone it down a little." - Devilry

*puffs bubble pipe*
ThinkBig
Posts: 2,215
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1/31/2017 8:01:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 7:49:09 PM, Danielle wrote:
Anyway, we role blocked the mason recruiter one night successfully. That should have been a wasted shot as far as I know. Of course every mod does it differently, and I guess that's ultimately what it comes down to, but I thought that was pretty bastard to be honest. The whole point of being X-shot is that you only get a limited number of times to TRY and successfully use your role, no? So if the scum team strategically blocks a X-shot whatever, I don't think they should have another chance to effectively use their role. But I dunno, maybe you guys disagree.

I have to agree with you. Some mods do it differently, but failed X-shots should NOT be refunded.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Posts: 18,337
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1/31/2017 8:47:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Good game guys. Sorry I replaced out. I was really busy the day the game started and when I came back home, there were hundreds of posts, mostly stuff that was a bit painful to read - like YYW's posts. I didn't want to spend that night and several more nights slogging through him telling us that we absolutely needed to lynch some player he didn't like.

Just wanted to clarify since there seem to be rumors that I left because I drew scum. That's not why I replaced out. I don't like playing scum but if I had time, I'd give it my best shot anyways. And had I drew town here, I would still have replaced out. I wasn't going to make my replace out decision based on what alignment I drew.

FT should know better since he saw me play the last few times I drew scum as opposed to replacing out. It just sucks that people suspected Danielle for the wrong reasons but winded up being right anyways.
Smithereens
Posts: 8,358
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1/31/2017 11:40:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 7:49:09 PM, Danielle wrote:
Anyway, we role blocked the mason recruiter one night successfully. That should have been a wasted shot as far as I know. Of course every mod does it differently, and I guess that's ultimately what it comes down to, but I thought that was pretty bastard to be honest. The whole point of being X-shot is that you only get a limited number of times to TRY and successfully use your role, no? So if the scum team strategically blocks a X-shot whatever, I don't think they should have another chance to effectively use their role. But I dunno, maybe you guys disagree.

A role blocker can prevent an action from being used or it can cause the action to fail. It's completely up to the mod how the mechanic works. In this game, the roleblocker prevented the action from being used.

To be clear though, this game was massively unbalanced in favour of scum, so it's really not a big deal if the mod processes a mafia role in a way that doesn't optimise the power of that mafia role. The effect of the roleblocker -to block the action- was successful, and all else are trivial details up to the discretion of the mod.

in terms of balance, you can't balance a 5 player scum team against any reasonable number of town. MS calculators stop at 30 town size, and a 5 scum vs 30 town mountainous set up has an expected win rate for town at 22.97%. This game pitted 5 scum against 13 town, with an expected town win rate at 3.97%. On top of that, the mafia were all given power roles and were allowed to use those roles in conjunction with the NK. Considering that mafia had three dedicated disinformation roles to the town's two information roles, it's a surprise only Warren was mislynched. Especially when town only have 3 mislynches before a MYLO/LYLO situation, that really removes the ability for town to play.

Regardless, the mafia lost, and it's not the roles that caused it.
"Your signature should not have the name of other players in the game, nor should it have the words VTL, Vote, or Unvote."
~Yraelz, 2017

Debate challenge 'Solipsism is false:' http://www.debate.org...
If God were real... http://www.debate.org...
Smithereens
Posts: 8,358
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1/31/2017 11:48:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 8:47:46 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
FT should know better since he saw me play the last few times I drew scum as opposed to replacing out. It just sucks that people suspected Danielle for the wrong reasons but winded up being right anyways.

Townies throughout the Dp's didn't bring up FT's speculation, I don't remember anyone but FT mentioning it. Danielle kept bringing it up during conversations that weren't in any way related to it however. If she ignored it or didn't reply to it that would've been fine. Instead she said: "Tuf was smart enough to not make F-16 scum" which is quite obviously not what a self-aware Dani would resort to. Next we had an argument over this and other things like the artificiality of the entry, but Dani kept going back to reiterate that FT's logic was invalid.

Imo Dani would've joined the town pile if she ignored FT and began scum hunting. But I have sympathy for her position due to how it must have looked from her PoV.
"Your signature should not have the name of other players in the game, nor should it have the words VTL, Vote, or Unvote."
~Yraelz, 2017

Debate challenge 'Solipsism is false:' http://www.debate.org...
If God were real... http://www.debate.org...
Yraelz
Posts: 5,300
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2/1/2017 12:42:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Jesus, someone give me the scum p.m.

Just share me the raw file via google drive and I'll figure out a way to host it here.
Yraelz
Posts: 5,300
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2/1/2017 12:44:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 11:48:15 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Imo Dani would've joined the town pile if she ignored FT and began scum hunting. But I have sympathy for her position due to how it must have looked from her PoV.

A comical part about these interactions was that I had tried to convince town that Dani was town based on Warren's post #333. However, later on, Dani wrote a wall of text about how Warren's post #333 didn't mean she was scum and how I was lying/incorrect about the whole situation.
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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2/1/2017 3:54:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/31/2017 11:40:32 PM, Smithereens wrote:
in terms of balance, you can't balance a 5 player scum team against any reasonable number of town. MS calculators stop at 30 town size, and a 5 scum vs 30 town mountainous set up has an expected win rate for town at 22.97%. This game pitted 5 scum against 13 town, with an expected town win rate at 3.97%. On top of that, the mafia were all given power roles and were allowed to use those roles in conjunction with the NK. Considering that mafia had three dedicated disinformation roles to the town's two information roles, it's a surprise only Warren was mislynched. Especially when town only have 3 mislynches before a MYLO/LYLO situation, that really removes the ability for town to play.

I disagree with this analysis on balance, but I think it's best I wait to explain why.
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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2/1/2017 3:56:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I do think the balance was a bit favored toward mafia in this game though. To say it's near impossible to win with the ratio however is clearly wrong; we lost pretty handedly. If Flex weren't as good as he was, we would have lost sooner.
Vaarka
Posts: 13,073
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2/1/2017 4:47:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2017 3:56:28 PM, Danielle wrote:
I do think the balance was a bit favored toward mafia in this game though. To say it's near impossible to win with the ratio however is clearly wrong; we lost pretty handedly. If Flex weren't as good as he was, we would have lost sooner.

The way I looked at it was we have 9 players in the beginner series, and two are scum. Multiply that by two, you have 18 players and 4 scum. What cost mafia the game for the most part started with behavior (YYW, Rose, Dani), then night results (Rose, Zaradi?), and finally inactivity (Zaradi). I never saw what happened with YWY, because I never got there. Rose, however, I for some reason scum read early DP1, and my results simply confirmed it. Zaradi was inactive, almost constantly. Danielle was mostly lynched due to a smaller focus on hunt scum and a larger focus on defense. Sure, in your case it was justified, but when it was all you ever did, repeatedly over and over and over, people caught on.

Flex, I got nothing. Honestly I wouldn't have really scum read him until DP7 or DP8, because "why is this guy still alive?", but otherwise I didn't suspect you at all.
Beginner Series Mafia Mod. PM if interested***
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"I bet you're thinking right now 'haha I'm a genius'. well you're not" - Valkrin

"You're too young to be so wise, mate. Tone it down a little." - Devilry

*puffs bubble pipe*
Danielle
Posts: 26,599
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2/1/2017 6:28:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2017 4:47:32 PM, Vaarka wrote:
The way I looked at it was we have 9 players in the beginner series, and two are scum. Multiply that by two, you have 18 players and 4 scum.

When I learned Mafia, I was taught the scum should be 1/3 to 1/5 of the players depending on the balance of the game. That means a game with 15 players can have 3-5 scum depending on set up. If there were a lot of vanilla or passive roles, perhaps 3 scum. If there are a bunch of power roles, then 5 scum. Another thing to consider is team balance. If there are a bunch of strong players in the town, maybe 5 mafia. If the best players are on the scum team, the mod might make only 3 or 4 scum. There are a lot of ways to balance a game IMO.
Vaarka
Posts: 13,073
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2/1/2017 6:43:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/1/2017 6:28:15 PM, Danielle wrote:
At 2/1/2017 4:47:32 PM, Vaarka wrote:
The way I looked at it was we have 9 players in the beginner series, and two are scum. Multiply that by two, you have 18 players and 4 scum.

When I learned Mafia, I was taught the scum should be 1/3 to 1/5 of the players depending on the balance of the game. That means a game with 15 players can have 3-5 scum depending on set up. If there were a lot of vanilla or passive roles, perhaps 3 scum. If there are a bunch of power roles, then 5 scum. Another thing to consider is team balance. If there are a bunch of strong players in the town, maybe 5 mafia. If the best players are on the scum team, the mod might make only 3 or 4 scum. There are a lot of ways to balance a game IMO.

if you ask me, for every 4 players, the first 3 are town, and the 4th is mafia. You do that for however many players there are. If there are more players than the last multiple of 4, then you count anyway. For example, if you have 18 players, you take 4 players, and make three town, and the fourth mafia, and do that until 16. Then, you'd continue that as if there were 20, but since there are only 18, it stops at #2 of the next set. Therefore, 14 town, 4 scum.

ofc I'm not the best to consult for balance, I'm just coming up with a way to justify how it seems to work.
Beginner Series Mafia Mod. PM if interested***
-
"I bet you're thinking right now 'haha I'm a genius'. well you're not" - Valkrin

"You're too young to be so wise, mate. Tone it down a little." - Devilry

*puffs bubble pipe*
Discipulus_Didicit
Posts: 4,489
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2/1/2017 7:26:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Chaos: I'm going to link to some posts where DD calls Rosalie 100% scum and claim that he is defending Rosalie in those posts.

(Nobody says anything or seems to care)

DD: I'm going to claim vanilla because that's what I am.

(Everyone rages, even after his flip, that DD lied about his role)
Reporting a scumbag to the mods of DDO:

https://youtu.be...

Peace is good, war is bad. "Peace at any price", however... that way of thinking is simply evil.