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the usa has a gun problem

linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...
dylancatlow
Posts: 13,530
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7/28/2018 5:35:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...

If the USA has a gun problem because guns are responsible for its high murder rate, then by the same logic wouldn't that mean it also has a black person problem?
Heterodox
Posts: 430
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7/29/2018 1:41:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...

Manipulating stats or portraying them in a manipulative way isn't a very good argument. You cannot remove guns from the stats and then use that to portray a scenario of there being no guns. There were guns and people still opted to use other methods for their murders. And you certainly cannot say that without guns those people wouldn't have murdered. That's ignoring whether the numbers are even accurate.
Double_R
Posts: 5,040
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7/29/2018 1:52:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/28/2018 5:35:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...

If the USA has a gun problem because guns are responsible for its high murder rate, then by the same logic wouldn't that mean it also has a black person problem?

Yes, a problem that the US created from slavery to segregation.
FungusOfHam
Posts: 2,360
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7/29/2018 3:07:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
the usa has a gun problem

Right. We need more. Then the elitists will never get the shock collars around our necks...
linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/29/2018 3:27:08 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/28/2018 5:35:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...

If the USA has a gun problem because guns are responsible for its high murder rate, then by the same logic wouldn't that mean it also has a black person problem?

yep
dylancatlow
Posts: 13,530
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7/29/2018 7:33:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/29/2018 3:27:08 AM, linate wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:35:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...

If the USA has a gun problem because guns are responsible for its high murder rate, then by the same logic wouldn't that mean it also has a black person problem?

yep

And what should we do about it, Mr. racist gun control advocate? I'm interested in your hipster solutions.
linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/29/2018 2:06:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/29/2018 7:33:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/29/2018 3:27:08 AM, linate wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:35:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...

If the USA has a gun problem because guns are responsible for its high murder rate, then by the same logic wouldn't that mean it also has a black person problem?

yep

And what should we do about it, Mr. racist gun control advocate? I'm interested in your hipster solutions.

that weebly link has some examples, but experts say the following is a good start...
https://www.nytimes.com...;
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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7/29/2018 3:09:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/29/2018 2:06:51 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/29/2018 7:33:10 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/29/2018 3:27:08 AM, linate wrote:
At 7/28/2018 5:35:13 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.

That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."

https://www.theatlantic.com...

for more on gun science and policy, read here....
http://guneducationalinformation.weebly.com...

If the USA has a gun problem because guns are responsible for its high murder rate, then by the same logic wouldn't that mean it also has a black person problem?

yep

And what should we do about it, Mr. racist gun control advocate? I'm interested in your hipster solutions.

that weebly link has some examples, but experts say the following is a good start...
https://www.nytimes.com...;

You do realize in many shootings that the government fails to follow through on any of these checks...right?

Why must the only solution only involve a failing, bloated government?
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 25,031
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7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.
At least the noble sheep provides us warm sweaters. All your hides would provide are coward pants. - Dick Solomon

"I call albatross!" - seventhprofessor
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 25,031
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7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)
At least the noble sheep provides us warm sweaters. All your hides would provide are coward pants. - Dick Solomon

"I call albatross!" - seventhprofessor
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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7/29/2018 7:40:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/29/2018 3:07:31 AM, FungusOfHam wrote:
the usa has a gun problem

Right. We need more. Then the elitists will never get the shock collars around our necks...

http://www.finfacts.com...
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/30/2018 12:28:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

the same thing would happen to other countries.... if you assumed some of those gun murders would happen even without guns, a proportion would occur to non-usa countries too. a good guess as to what would happen is to look at nongun murder rates and assume there's a relation to gun murders..... if you do that we would assume the usa would be worse even without guns, but nowhere as bad as it is now.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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7/30/2018 12:51:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)

sounds like you are trying to blame people instead of inanimate objects. Democrats flame him with baseless accusations and falsehoods!!!! my guns obey their curfew and don't sneak out by themselves to do lord knows what. If I'm not mistaken the number of people owning guns seems to be rather steady so the number of guns can't be the problem, I wonder what else it might be.....
https://www.statista.com...
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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7/30/2018 3:52:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 12:28:14 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

the same thing would happen to other countries.... if you assumed some of those gun murders would happen even without guns, a proportion would occur to non-usa countries too. a good guess as to what would happen is to look at nongun murder rates and assume there's a relation to gun murders..... if you do that we would assume the usa would be worse even without guns, but nowhere as bad as it is now.

America is violent because it has become tribalistic, just like Africa is violent. Removing guns won't remove the tribes.
http://www.youtube.com...
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,562
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7/30/2018 4:09:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 3:52:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

America is violent because it has become tribalistic, just like Africa is violent. Removing guns won't remove the tribes.

This is true, but I would pose that domestic tribalism faded because of the World Wars and USSR, which just stoked another form of tribalism. Humanity is as tribalistic as ever in practice
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Greyparrot
Posts: 21,953
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7/30/2018 4:25:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 4:09:07 PM, Buddamoose wrote:
At 7/30/2018 3:52:13 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

America is violent because it has become tribalistic, just like Africa is violent. Removing guns won't remove the tribes.

This is true, but I would pose that domestic tribalism faded because of the World Wars and USSR, which just stoked another form of tribalism. Humanity is as tribalistic as ever in practice

It's sad but if you look at the collapse of the Roman Empire...it dissolved into squabbling petty factions because there was no unifying principle anymore. Nobody agrees on what it means to be American anymore. Removing guns won't fix this.
The extinction of the species is worse than the extinction of the nation, which is worse than the extinction of the tribe, which is worse than the extinction of the family, which is worse than the extinction of the individual. The second he reverses that list of priorities, he becomes a coward, and would be summarily disposed of by any civilized society that values its own survival.
Buddamoose
Posts: 19,562
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7/30/2018 5:01:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 4:25:00 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

It's sad but if you look at the collapse of the Roman Empire...it dissolved into squabbling petty factions because there was no unifying principle anymore. Nobody agrees on what it means to be American anymore. Removing guns won't fix this.

People crave a unifying principle. Democracies, Republics, are inherently vulnerable to this inherent weakness. It still dissolves into the squabbles and polarization of Democracy. But, as much as current US power is like a castle on thin ice, we've tried so incorporate as much of the world into our castle as possible. Again, still tribalism, and taking others down with you is still spiteful in nature.

Increased global connectivity to me, is creating a false sense of "togetherness" not to ones nation, but the rest of the world. People have conflated sovereign Self-interest, and nationalism, with being evil. Mainly due to the heavily nationalistic totalitarianism that pervaded the 20th century. People dont care how the game is played, they don't care about why it is, they just care about how it makes them feel, even if that means choosing paths to destruction :(
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 12:51:30 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)

sounds like you are trying to blame people instead of inanimate objects. Democrats flame him with baseless accusations and falsehoods!!!! my guns obey their curfew and don't sneak out by themselves to do lord knows what. If I'm not mistaken the number of people owning guns seems to be rather steady so the number of guns can't be the problem, I wonder what else it might be.....
https://www.statista.com...

the number of people owning guns has decreased over the last decades, that's a better barometer than the number of guns out there. and, over that time the number of murders has gone down. that is the trend over various regions, state country etc. that weebly link in the opening post has more on that, and a ton more on gun control science. the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science. it's also basic common sense.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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7/30/2018 6:35:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:51:30 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)

sounds like you are trying to blame people instead of inanimate objects. Democrats flame him with baseless accusations and falsehoods!!!! my guns obey their curfew and don't sneak out by themselves to do lord knows what. If I'm not mistaken the number of people owning guns seems to be rather steady so the number of guns can't be the problem, I wonder what else it might be.....
https://www.statista.com...

the number of people owning guns has decreased over the last decades, that's a better barometer than the number of guns out there. and, over that time the number of murders has gone down. that is the trend over various regions, state country etc. that weebly link in the opening post has more on that, and a ton more on gun control science. the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science. it's also basic common sense.

ownership has pretty much remained the same if you look at the graph, yet rates have been going down.
wow! just giving someone a gun will make them commit murder, astonishing science right there bro.
https://thefederalistpapers.org...
https://www.cnsnews.com...
Heterodox
Posts: 430
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7/30/2018 6:38:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM, linate wrote:
...the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science...

What evidence shows that? The logical fallacy kind?
linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/30/2018 6:47:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 6:38:44 PM, Heterodox wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM, linate wrote:
...the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science...

What evidence shows that? The logical fallacy kind?

you dont know human nature if you don't realize simply having a gun will cause some people to be more likely to kill someone

another big example is women are five times more likely to die in domestic violence if her partner has a gun

why don't you try arguing science and facts instead of running your mouth like a fool. the science is overwhelming there, you're just too stupid to understand it
linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/30/2018 6:53:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 6:35:09 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:51:30 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)

sounds like you are trying to blame people instead of inanimate objects. Democrats flame him with baseless accusations and falsehoods!!!! my guns obey their curfew and don't sneak out by themselves to do lord knows what. If I'm not mistaken the number of people owning guns seems to be rather steady so the number of guns can't be the problem, I wonder what else it might be.....
https://www.statista.com...

the number of people owning guns has decreased over the last decades, that's a better barometer than the number of guns out there. and, over that time the number of murders has gone down. that is the trend over various regions, state country etc. that weebly link in the opening post has more on that, and a ton more on gun control science. the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science. it's also basic common sense.

ownership has pretty much remained the same if you look at the graph, yet rates have been going down.
wow! just giving someone a gun will make them commit murder, astonishing science right there bro.
https://thefederalistpapers.org...
https://www.cnsnews.com...

the second link looks at the total number of guns, so that's moot. over that time frame the number of people owning them has gone down, while the amount they own has gone up.
the first link is just one measure. if you look historically overall, it shows a different picture, as i said. also, if you break it down by various regions instead of just one snap shot, you will see what i said too. and, finally, and probably more importaly, if you control for things like poverty and that sort of thing, it becomes clear. that's why there is a consensus on science about the point. it's not because scientists are too stupid to compare ownership rates and compare them to murder rates.
linate
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7/30/2018 6:57:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"i read a story about a boy who got a gun out of his house to shoot some bullies who followed him home. they were challenging him. he admits he wouldn't have did this if he didn't have access to a gun. ive seen with my own eyes an adult do in a pretty exactly the same situation... it's not just limited to kids. remember again that men are five times more likely to kill their significant other if they have a gun. guns cause escalation when the situation otherwise wouldn't. a gun is critical."
linate
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7/30/2018 7:02:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
GUN SCIENCE
-where there is more gun control, there is less murder. this is the scientific consensus, as shown with the literature review. being a literature review makes this a lot more informing than just being a single study; we see the consensus forming. also included is a link to a poll of scientists but a literature review itself makes the claims even stronger.
https://www.vox.com...
http://www.latimes.com...
-where there are more guns, there is more murder, across geographic regions from localities and larger. this is also a lot more informing because it a literature review of lots of studies. what's more, people are shown not to kill with other weopons instead of guns, as is often argued, because if they did there would be no correlation here.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu...
-women are five times more likely to be killed if their significant other has a gun. this is a practical point in illustration of the guns v murders correlation. same in individual lives as general trends
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
-you are more likely to be murdered if you have a gun, as well as those close to you
https://academic.oup.com...
-only around two hundred and fifty killings are done in the name of self defense per year. people like to pretend defense is such a huge thing, but the odds of being murdered is is closer to forty times higher.
-we have half the worlds guns in the usa but a small percent of the worlds population
-Police are more likely to kill unjustifiably in low gun control and high gun areas due to their increased fear, and police are more likely to be shot themselves in those areas.
http://justicenotjails.org...
https://www.nbcnews.com...;
-Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the United States' gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher.
https://www.cbsnews.com...
-High school kids in the USA are eighty two times more likely to be shot than the same kids in other developed countries.
https://www.healthaffairs.org...
-it is claimed that most murders are gang related, but this looks to be factually incorrect in the link. even if higher numbers floating around on the internet are true, our murder problem still there if you take out the gang murders from consideration. the numbers here can be arrived at with basic math.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com...
-the idea that guns cause problems for society is not just consensus within science, but also the news. here are two links.... the first controls for mental health capacity and other factors in the usa v other countries and concludes it isn't our mental health but rather the fact that we have so many guns. we don't have more people with mental health problems.... just more people with guns. the second link controls for crime and concludes we dont have more crime than the rest of the world, just a lot more people getting shot and killed. you aren't more likely to be mugged here, for instance, but you are more likely to be mugged and shot in the process. again a gun problem. showing it's not just deviants being deviants as some suggest but an emphasis on the gun problem.
https://www.nytimes.com...
https://www.vox.com...
-You can tell this is a gun problem, not just a bad person problem as the gun lobby says, also by comparing non-gun homicides of similar countries as the USA, and then adding guns to the mix...
'As for Friedman"s claim that keeping a gun out of someone"s hands won"t disincline them to commit murder, Cukier said, "The evidence doesn"t support that. Look at the numbers." She went on to analyze homicide statistics from 2016: "If you look at the rate of murders not caused by guns and you compare Canada, the U.S., the U.K., and Australia, what you see is that it"s roughly the same in all four countries, although the U.S. rate is slightly higher," Cukier said. In other words, in a scenario without guns, the four populations exhibit roughly similar rates of homicidal behavior.
That changes when you look at the rate of murders that were caused by guns. "As soon as you add guns into the mix, you see that the U.S. has six times the rate of gun murders as Canada has. And Canada has 15 times the rate of gun murders as the U.K., and four times the rate of Australia. It"s very clear that the difference in the murder rates between those countries is a function of the availability of firearms, period."
https://www.theatlantic.com...
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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7/30/2018 7:04:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 6:53:16 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:35:09 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:51:30 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)

sounds like you are trying to blame people instead of inanimate objects. Democrats flame him with baseless accusations and falsehoods!!!! my guns obey their curfew and don't sneak out by themselves to do lord knows what. If I'm not mistaken the number of people owning guns seems to be rather steady so the number of guns can't be the problem, I wonder what else it might be.....
https://www.statista.com...

the number of people owning guns has decreased over the last decades, that's a better barometer than the number of guns out there. and, over that time the number of murders has gone down. that is the trend over various regions, state country etc. that weebly link in the opening post has more on that, and a ton more on gun control science. the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science. it's also basic common sense.

ownership has pretty much remained the same if you look at the graph, yet rates have been going down.
wow! just giving someone a gun will make them commit murder, astonishing science right there bro.
https://thefederalistpapers.org...
https://www.cnsnews.com...

the second link looks at the total number of guns, so that's moot. over that time frame the number of people owning them has gone down, while the amount they own has gone up.
nope look at the graphs, everything fluctuates, but it's pretty stable.
the first link is just one measure. if you look historically overall, it shows a different picture, as i said. also, if you break it down by various regions instead of just one snap shot, you will see what i said too. and, finally, and probably more importaly, if you control for things like poverty and that sort of thing, it becomes clear. that's why there is a consensus on science about the point. it's not because scientists are too stupid to compare ownership rates and compare them to murder rates.

not sure what control for poverty means, except poor people commit crimes and shouldn't have guns. You've ignored the graph I showed you that shows individual gun ownership is pretty stagnant, though the number of guns people own has gone up, regardless gun murders have gone down quite dramatically, absent of any new rules or regulations and continues to go down. Since the goal is to reduce murders, is seems that goal is being met w/o and new laws.
"Scientists" have bias and agendas, they don't need to be stupid to ignore facts and stats that don't fit their narrative.
if you look at individual states, this "science" totally falls apart.
linate
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7/30/2018 7:10:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 7:04:52 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:53:16 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:35:09 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:51:30 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)

sounds like you are trying to blame people instead of inanimate objects. Democrats flame him with baseless accusations and falsehoods!!!! my guns obey their curfew and don't sneak out by themselves to do lord knows what. If I'm not mistaken the number of people owning guns seems to be rather steady so the number of guns can't be the problem, I wonder what else it might be.....
https://www.statista.com...

the number of people owning guns has decreased over the last decades, that's a better barometer than the number of guns out there. and, over that time the number of murders has gone down. that is the trend over various regions, state country etc. that weebly link in the opening post has more on that, and a ton more on gun control science. the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science. it's also basic common sense.

ownership has pretty much remained the same if you look at the graph, yet rates have been going down.
wow! just giving someone a gun will make them commit murder, astonishing science right there bro.
https://thefederalistpapers.org...
https://www.cnsnews.com...

the second link looks at the total number of guns, so that's moot. over that time frame the number of people owning them has gone down, while the amount they own has gone up.
nope look at the graphs, everything fluctuates, but it's pretty stable.
the first link is just one measure. if you look historically overall, it shows a different picture, as i said. also, if you break it down by various regions instead of just one snap shot, you will see what i said too. and, finally, and probably more importaly, if you control for things like poverty and that sort of thing, it becomes clear. that's why there is a consensus on science about the point. it's not because scientists are too stupid to compare ownership rates and compare them to murder rates.

not sure what control for poverty means, except poor people commit crimes and shouldn't have guns. You've ignored the graph I showed you that shows individual gun ownership is pretty stagnant, though the number of guns people own has gone up, regardless gun murders have gone down quite dramatically, absent of any new rules or regulations and continues to go down. Since the goal is to reduce murders, is seems that goal is being met w/o and new laws.
"Scientists" have bias and agendas, they don't need to be stupid to ignore facts and stats that don't fit their narrative.
if you look at individual states, this "science" totally falls apart.

what i mean by control for poverty. there are a lot of things that can cause an area to be violent, not just the amount of guns or things like that. things like poverty can contribute since poor people are more likely to be violent. so, scientists have methods for looking at various factors while holding this one or that one constant.
i guess i just trust scientists more than you do. i think if this was too mushy of a concept then there wouldn't be such a settled issue here within science.

you say i'm ignoring your graph, but i'm not. you're ignoring what i said.... if you compare state's gun rates v murders that is just one measure. you can also measure it historically, or by various regions, like by country or by region etc. when australia did a gun buy back, for instance, their murder rate went almost in half, and their mass shootings almost compltely stopped when they were having about one per year before that. these are just anomolies.
thedreadpirateroberts
Posts: 421
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7/30/2018 7:13:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 6:57:13 PM, linate wrote:
"i read a story about a boy who got a gun out of his house to shoot some bullies who followed him home. they were challenging him. he admits he wouldn't have did this if he didn't have access to a gun. ive seen with my own eyes an adult do in a pretty exactly the same situation... it's not just limited to kids. remember again that men are five times more likely to kill their significant other if they have a gun. guns cause escalation when the situation otherwise wouldn't. a gun is critical."

ROFL he admitted he wouldn't have done this had he been raised properly, the gun secured properly if he wasn't mentally disturbed, oh wait, it's the fault of the gun, it just jumped right into his hand already loaded and not locked up, just magically materialized, what an amazing sight it would have been to see.
how can you know if an event would have or would not have occurred if a fact is changed? are you some kind of wizard?
schrodinger's cat are you familiar? kind of the same thing, you can't say some psychopath wouldn't still kill his girlfriend or wife w/o a gun, how many of those are violent felons already who has the gun illegally? Oh wait you mean the law doesn't stop criminals? how can that be?
We've had this argument several times before, you have not brought anything new to the table, if you actually do find something new, add it to one of the many old threads so we don't have to keep repeating the same thing, it's rather boring.
linate
Posts: 1,137
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7/30/2018 7:14:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/30/2018 7:04:52 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:53:16 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:35:09 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/30/2018 6:04:52 PM, linate wrote:
At 7/30/2018 12:51:30 PM, thedreadpirateroberts wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:20:35 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/29/2018 6:18:25 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/28/2018 3:38:53 PM, linate wrote:
here is the latest evidence ive read, that it's not just a bad person problem, it's a gun problem....

This assumes that the wildly high number of gun homicide murders that are committed would not be committed at all, if guns were gone. If only 10% of gun murders were to occur sans gun, our rate would be even higher than it is already, compared to the other countries.

In other words, unless the gun murders literally would not happen but for the gun, his argument falls apart, and it is a people issue (guns don't help the matter, but ignoring the cause and focusing on the symptom is not the best long term course of action)

sounds like you are trying to blame people instead of inanimate objects. Democrats flame him with baseless accusations and falsehoods!!!! my guns obey their curfew and don't sneak out by themselves to do lord knows what. If I'm not mistaken the number of people owning guns seems to be rather steady so the number of guns can't be the problem, I wonder what else it might be.....
https://www.statista.com...

the number of people owning guns has decreased over the last decades, that's a better barometer than the number of guns out there. and, over that time the number of murders has gone down. that is the trend over various regions, state country etc. that weebly link in the opening post has more on that, and a ton more on gun control science. the evidence that if you give someone a gun, they are more likely to kill someone, is overwhelming in science. it's also basic common sense.

ownership has pretty much remained the same if you look at the graph, yet rates have been going down.
wow! just giving someone a gun will make them commit murder, astonishing science right there bro.
https://thefederalistpapers.org...
https://www.cnsnews.com...

the second link looks at the total number of guns, so that's moot. over that time frame the number of people owning them has gone down, while the amount they own has gone up.
nope look at the graphs, everything fluctuates, but it's pretty stable.
the first link is just one measure. if you look historically overall, it shows a different picture, as i said. also, if you break it down by various regions instead of just one snap shot, you will see what i said too. and, finally, and probably more importaly, if you control for things like poverty and that sort of thing, it becomes clear. that's why there is a consensus on science about the point. it's not because scientists are too stupid to compare ownership rates and compare them to murder rates.

not sure what control for poverty means, except poor people commit crimes and shouldn't have guns. You've ignored the graph I showed you that shows individual gun ownership is pretty stagnant, though the number of guns people own has gone up, regardless gun murders have gone down quite dramatically, absent of any new rules or regulations and continues to go down. Since the goal is to reduce murders, is seems that goal is being met w/o and new laws.
"Scientists" have bias and agendas, they don't need to be stupid to ignore facts and stats that don't fit their narrative.
if you look at individual states, this "science" totally falls apart.

the following also make my point that availability of guns is a problem, how do you respond?

-women are five times more likely to be killed if their significant other has a gun. this is a practical point in illustration of the guns v murders correlation. same in individual lives as general trends
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
-Police are more likely to kill unjustifiably in low gun control and high gun areas due to their increased fear, and police are more likely to be shot themselves in those areas.
http://justicenotjails.org...
https://www.nbcnews.com...;
..... you aren't more likely to be mugged here, for instance, but you are more likely to be mugged and shot in the process. again a gun problem. showing it's not just deviants being deviants as some suggest but an emphasis on the gun problem.
https://www.nytimes.com...
https://www.vox.com...

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