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Praying To the Saints?

annanicole
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1/17/2013 1:05:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Suqua You asked.. So how does that fit into Mary's, being in heaven with Jesus? Fled into the wilderness?
&
He does honor his mother, thats one of the 2 commands. The bible never says that she is in heaven right now dogknox. You made that up! Nice touch, but not Biblically correct

I reply Simply: there is ZERO about "Fled into the wilderness!!!" Do you read, "Fled into the wilderness?"!!!! (Below)
The bible does say Mary is in heaven.. Open your eyes.. read (below)

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Looks as if you are sucking slew water... Making stuff up!
Scriptures... A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman...

Clearly Mary is in heaven!!!!

Dogknox

Dogknox, Rev 12: 1 has no reference at all to Mary - not even an indirect one. In Rev 12: 1, " a woman" has reference to the church, not to Mary, as even the New Catholic Answer Bible Commentary states: "the woman adorned with the sun, the moon , and the stars (images taken from Gn 37, 9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament."

As usual, you throw the verse out here, handle it wrecklessly, make a couple of assertions, then conclude, "Clearly Mary is in heaven" when the verse itself is highly figurative and does not even mention Mary.
Dogknox
Posts: 6,484
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1/17/2013 2:23:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/17/2013 1:05:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Suqua You asked.. So how does that fit into Mary's, being in heaven with Jesus? Fled into the wilderness?
&
He does honor his mother, thats one of the 2 commands. The bible never says that she is in heaven right now dogknox. You made that up! Nice touch, but not Biblically correct

I reply Simply: there is ZERO about "Fled into the wilderness!!!" Do you read, "Fled into the wilderness?"!!!! (Below)
The bible does say Mary is in heaven.. Open your eyes.. read (below)

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Looks as if you are sucking slew water... Making stuff up!
Scriptures... A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman...

Clearly Mary is in heaven!!!!

Dogknox

Dogknox, Rev 12: 1 has no reference at all to Mary - not even an indirect one. In Rev 12: 1, " a woman" has reference to the church, not to Mary, as even the New Catholic Answer Bible Commentary states: "the woman adorned with the sun, the moon , and the stars (images taken from Gn 37, 9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament."

As usual, you throw the verse out here, handle it wrecklessly, make a couple of assertions, then conclude, "Clearly Mary is in heaven" when the verse itself is highly figurative and does not even mention Mary.

annanicole I hope all is well, I have not heard from you for some time..

I reply... WAIT.. Hold your horse... Where does it say "CHURCH"!
It says "Woman" and it continues....2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
It can only be Mary!! NADA.. Nothing about Church!

I can't believe you would even mention Church.. Are you saying the Holy Catholic Church is crowned with stars!?
IF
annanicole If it was to mean "CHURCH", it can't mean any protestant man made churches (like yours) now could it??! There was no man made churches when Rev was written and besides Jesus' CHURCH would be the only CHURCH.. crowned! I suppose you want to think>> your Church <<would trump Jesus' one church and your church is the one crowned over Jesus'!?? I THINK NOT!

Jesus formed the Holy Catholic CHURCH... Thus it would be the CHURCH that is crowned with stars!
annanicole I think by declaring it means CHURCH, you dig yourself a hole you can't get out of!!

Dogknox
annanicole
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1/17/2013 5:50:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/17/2013 2:23:52 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/17/2013 1:05:02 PM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Suqua You asked.. So how does that fit into Mary's, being in heaven with Jesus? Fled into the wilderness?
&
He does honor his mother, thats one of the 2 commands. The bible never says that she is in heaven right now dogknox. You made that up! Nice touch, but not Biblically correct

I reply Simply: there is ZERO about "Fled into the wilderness!!!" Do you read, "Fled into the wilderness?"!!!! (Below)
The bible does say Mary is in heaven.. Open your eyes.. read (below)

Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Looks as if you are sucking slew water... Making stuff up!
Scriptures... A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman...

Clearly Mary is in heaven!!!!

Dogknox

Dogknox, Rev 12: 1 has no reference at all to Mary - not even an indirect one. In Rev 12: 1, " a woman" has reference to the church, not to Mary, as even the New Catholic Answer Bible Commentary states: "the woman adorned with the sun, the moon , and the stars (images taken from Gn 37, 9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament."

As usual, you throw the verse out here, handle it wrecklessly, make a couple of assertions, then conclude, "Clearly Mary is in heaven" when the verse itself is highly figurative and does not even mention Mary.

annanicole I hope all is well, I have not heard from you for some time..

I reply... WAIT.. Hold your horse... Where does it say "CHURCH"!
It says "Woman" and it continues....2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
It can only be Mary!! NADA.. Nothing about Church!

I can't believe you would even mention Church..

Why not? The New Catholic Answer Bible Commentary did: "the woman adorned with the sun, the moon , and the stars (images taken from Gn 37, 9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament." It says, Dogknox, that "the woman" in Rev 12 represents "God's people" - not Mary. Take it up with them.

Are you saying the Holy Catholic Church is crowned with stars!?

I'm saying that the "woman" depicted figuratively in Rev 12 refers to God's people .... the church of God.

IF
annanicole If it was to mean "CHURCH", it can't mean any protestant man made churches (like yours) now could it??!

I'm not Protestant. Nor am I a Roman Catholic or a Greek Catholic or any one of the dozens of other sects of Catholics. So no, the passage has no reference to any Protestant man-made churches.

There was no man made churches when Rev was written and besides Jesus' CHURCH would be the only CHURCH.. crowned! I suppose you want to think>> your Church <<would trump Jesus' one church

Umm ... I do not have a church. Jesus Christ does.

and your church is the one crowned over Jesus'!?? I THINK NOT!

....anddddddddd..... you aren't gettin paid to think, are you?

Jesus formed the Holy Catholic CHURCH... Thus it would be the CHURCH that is crowned with stars!

Then why did every New Testament writer fail to CALL it that?

annanicole I think by declaring it means CHURCH, you dig yourself a hole you can't get out of!!

Then I'll worry about that when I find myself there. Why do all the Romish SCHOLARS say "the woman" is the CHURCH, and all the Romish APOLOGISTS (and wannabe's) try to pawn off "the woman" as Mary? Looks like they'd get together, and get an infallible decision on it.

There is but one church. It is known by various names throughout the New Testament. Unfortunately, one of them is NOT the "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" or "Holy Catholic Church" or whatever you call it. You'll do much better to call Bible things by Bible names - stay away from man-made names.
Dogknox
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1/17/2013 8:56:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
annanicole you said.. Why not? The New Catholic Answer Bible Commentary did: "the woman adorned with the sun, the moon , and the stars (images taken from Gn 37, 9-10) symbolizes God's people in the Old and the New Testament." It says, Dogknox, that "the woman" in Rev 12 represents "God's people" - not Mary. Take it up with them.

I reply: Mary is the MOTHER of the CHURCH.. God' Children! Of course Rev 12:1-2 Represents or Symbolizes CHURCH! Mary is a SYMBOL of God' Children!
Mary is a SYMBOL of the Holy Catholic Church.. The Body of Jesus!
You can't win.... The CHURCH is in Heaven and Mary is the MOTHER of the CHURCH!!!
Thus Mary is in Heaven!! As revelations tells you!!!
Jesus honors Mary his mother, he crowns her with stars!

REVELATIONS
Then God"s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a severe hailstorm. A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Clearly Mary is an "ARK" she carried God! She is the WOMAN (SIGN) appearing in heaven.. The ARK can't be anything BUT Mary!
ARK = Mary!

You say: I'm saying that the "woman" depicted figuratively in Rev 12 refers to God's people .... the church of God.
I am saying it is MARY ... She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
annanicole You reject Jesus' holy Church.. thus you reject Jesus! It is just this simple, you are forced to reject Mary because; Mary is the MOTHER of Jesus' Church!

You say.. I'm not Protestant. Nor am I a Roman Catholic or a Greek Catholic or any one of the dozens of other sects of Catholics. So no, the passage has no reference to any Protestant man-made churches.

I reply You are protestant!
You reject the AUTHORITY of The Pope!
You believe the protestant teaching of "Scriptures ALONE!"
You believe the protestant teaching of "Faith ALONE"!
You are NOT CATHOLIC! To be Catholic you must be in the Body of Jesus! OR IF you were IN the Body of Jesus you would be Catholic. You reject the Body of Jesus because you PROTEST against Jesus' Holy Catholic Body!
annanicole If it looks as a duck, walks as a duck, quacks as a duck THEN it is a DUCK!

You place the salvation of your soul in a man made church with man made teachings, that reject the scriptures!
Jesus is very clear.. "He will never leave his Church, he is ALWAYS with his Church to the very end of the world!"
Jesus sent his Paraclete to guide the only Church he formed to be FOREVER WITH, The ONLY Church Jesus formed! The Paraclete is FOREVER guiding the ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed, which can only be, the Holy Catholic Church!! There was no others until the great "De-formation" sixteen hundred years after Jesus formed the Holy Catholic Church placing Peter as the first Shepherd!

You asked.. Then why did every New Testament writer fail to CALL it that? (Catholic)

I reply you are wrong!!
The Early Church Fathers named their Church "Catholic"!
Ignatius of Antioch Is a BISHOP.. he was instructed by the Apostle JOHN!
He said..
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans"8:2 [A.D. 110])."

In 110 A.D. Ignatius is telling you.. Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church"

Clearly; Ignatius is not naming the Church, he is writing as if his reader already knew the Church was named "CATHOLIC"!

The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church!
The first Christians were all Catholic's!
The Catholic Church made the Bible, the Bible is a book of the Catholic Church! The Pope closed the Canon in 400 A.D!
The Pope is CATHOLIC!

You said.. There is but one church. It is known by various names throughout the New Testament. Unfortunately, one of them is NOT the "Roman Catholic Church" or "Holy Roman Church" or "Holy Catholic Church" or whatever you call it. You'll do much better to call Bible things by Bible names - stay away from man-made names.
There is NO church named in the new testament!
Jesus formed ONE CHURCH not "Churches"!
Jesus Church was not named by Jesus, it was not named after Christ!

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word that came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

Polycarp is a BISHOP in the Catholic Church!
annanicole Jesus' Church had Bishops as it still does today! Timothy is a BISHOP as Polycarp is BISHOP in the Catholic Church!
1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Clearly Titus and Timothy are BISHOPS in the Holy Catholic Church!
Clearly the text below is telling you the Apostle Paul is CATHOLIC!

The Muratorian Canon
Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others that cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).

No early Church Father's calls the Church formed by Jesus as "Plural" churches!
All name the Church "CATHOLIC!"
Augustine Is a BISHOP in the Holy Catholic CHURCH!
He said.. Christians are CATHOLIC!

We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name, which the whole world employs in her regard (The True Religion 7:12 [A.D. 390]).

Dogknox
annanicole
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1/17/2013 11:48:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/17/2013 8:56:46 PM, Dogknox wrote:

I reply: Mary is the MOTHER of the CHURCH.. God' Children!

No, she's not. You're so caught up on Mary that you have her being the Mother of God, Mother of the Church, and Mother of everything in between.

Of course Rev 12:1-2 Represents or Symbolizes CHURCH!

Yep

Mary is a SYMBOL of God' Children!

So now she's Mother of God, Mother of the Church, and a symbol of God's children. I think you have your symbolism kinda confused. The church is the bride of Christ - yet, in your Mariolitry, you now have Jesus wedded to his own sister, yet the NT condemns incest.

Mary is a SYMBOL of the Holy Catholic Church.. The Body of Jesus!

Well, at least Mary is mentioned in the Bible. The so-called "Holy Catholic Church" is not.

You can't win.... The CHURCH is in Heaven and Mary is the MOTHER of the CHURCH!!!

Ummm.... you make up a far-fetched and unscriptural (and incestuous) relationship between Jesus and the church and Mary - then say I can't win? If the church is in heaven, exactly what is that mess we have over in Rome now?

Thus Mary is in Heaven!! As revelations tells you!!!
Jesus honors Mary his mother, he crowns her with stars!

Clearly Mary is an "ARK" she carried God! She is the WOMAN (SIGN) appearing in heaven..

The passage refers to the ark of the covenant - not Noah's ark.

I am saying it is MARY ... She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.

Huh? How do you know?

annanicole You reject Jesus' holy Church.. thus you reject Jesus! It is just this simple, you are forced to reject Mary because; Mary is the MOTHER of Jesus' Church!

Yeah, and you have Jesus marrying his own sister with your silly popish fabrications.

I reply You are protestant!

No, I can't be. There were no Protestants when Jesus built His church. There weren't any Catholics, either.

You reject the AUTHORITY of The Pope!

Maybe because the Bible never mentions any pope.

You believe the protestant teaching of "Faith ALONE"!

No, I do not.

You are NOT CATHOLIC! To be Catholic you must be in the Body of Jesus!

No, to be "Catholic", one must be very gullible.

You place the salvation of your soul in a man made church with man made teachings,

Man-made teachings such as the infallibility of the pope, the assumption of Mary, etc. Those man-made teachings?

Jesus is very clear.. "He will never leave his Church, he is ALWAYS with his Church to the very end of the world!"

Ummm ... he was with His church in the bestowal of miraculous gifts until the end of the age. The "age" ended, officially and conclusively, in AD 70.

Jesus sent his Paraclete to guide the only Church he formed to be FOREVER WITH, The ONLY Church Jesus formed!

The Spirit guides through the word.

The Paraclete is FOREVER guiding the ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed,

Yeah, through the word.

which can only be, the Holy Catholic Church!!

Nahhh, there was only the church ... the church of God ... the church of Christ for several hundred years. Then the apostacies came, we wound up with two "churches" - the church, plus an apostate body headquartered over in Rome.

There was no others until the great "De-formation" sixteen hundred years after Jesus formed the Holy Catholic Church placing Peter as the first Shepherd!

When Luther came along, he added to the mess: then we had the church, the Roman Catholic church, and the Lutheran church. All Luther did was take it from 2 to 3.

You asked.. Then why did every New Testament writer fail to CALL it that? (Catholic)

I reply you are wrong!!

Then why don't you quote something from the New Testament and prove me wrong?

The Early Church Fathers named their Church "Catholic"!
Ignatius of Antioch Is a BISHOP.. he was instructed by the Apostle JOHN!

Who cares? You can't find it in the Bible, can you?
annanicole
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1/17/2013 11:58:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago

Clearly; Ignatius is not naming the Church, he is writing as if his reader already knew the Church was named "CATHOLIC"!

I could care less. I said, "Why don't you call Bible things by Bible names - and quit makin' stuff up?"

The Pope is the head of the Catholic Church!

You got that right. You're dead-on there. Jesus Christ is the head of the church of Christ, and the pope is the head of the Roman Catholic church.

The first Christians were all Catholic's!

Then why does the Bible fail to record it? They were all Christians - nothing more, nothing less. And not a one of 'em ever heard of any pope. What's more, they SURE never heard of 'papal infallibility'.

The Catholic Church made the Bible, the Bible is a book of the Catholic Church! The Pope closed the Canon in 400 A.D!

Pffffffffffffffft.

The Pope is CATHOLIC!

Yep, he is. So was Innocent III. Nice company, eh?

There is NO church named in the new testament!

Romans 16: 16, "...the churches of Christ salute you." How's that? Suits me! How about "the church of God"? That'll be fine.

Jesus formed ONE CHURCH not "Churches"!

Yep

Jesus Church was not named by Jesus, it was not named after Christ!

Nobody said Jesus named it. But Paul called congregations "churches of Christ" in Romans 16. It is repeatedly called "the church of God" in the NT - yet you run around trying to quote Ignasius.

Polycarp is a BISHOP in the Catholic Church!

He might have been a bishop or elder or presbyter, but Polycarp never heard of any "Holy Catholic Church" or any "pope."

annanicole Jesus' Church had Bishops as it still does today! Timothy is a BISHOP as Polycarp is BISHOP in the Catholic Church!

You never took the Bible and proved Timothy was a bishop of anything. And you can't.

No early Church Father's calls the Church formed by Jesus as "Plural" churches!

Paul called the church "the church of God" and local congregations were "churches of Christ" (Rom 16: 16). I'll stick with Paul.

Y'all notice that Dogknox, when it comes to any names for the church, has no more use for the Bible than he does a dictionary. In fact, he has more use for the dictionary because at least he can find "Catholic Church" in it.

"..... the churches of Christ salute you ...." (Rom 16: 16)
Dogknox
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1/18/2013 9:52:09 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
annanicole
You said.. No, she's not. You're so caught up on Mary that you have her being the Mother of God, Mother of the Church, and Mother of everything in between.

I reply: You are wrong... I believe the scriptures! I believe what CHRISTIANS have always taught..
Irenaeus Is CATHOLIC, he is Christian!
Irenaeus Is not a member of "Churches of Christ" there was no "churches of Christ" until.. In 1906, the U.S. Religious Census listed the Christian Churches and the Churches of Christ as separate and distinct groups for the first time.

annanicole The "churches of Christ" is a child of Alexander Campbell an off shoot of "Disciples of Christ"!!
They are "WANNA BEE" Christians!
They are a man made CHURCH.. trying to imitate Christians of the first century!!
The ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed is the Holy Catholic Church.. All the early Christians are CATHOLICS, all accept the authority of the pope!

Irenaeus the CHRISTIAN said..
"The Virgin Mary, being obedient to his word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God" (Against Heresies, 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Mary is the "Mother of God!" she would bear God
Irenaeus would call you "HERETIC!"

Hippolytus is CHRISTIAN.. Christians believe Mary is the mother of God! Christians believe Jesus is God!
He said..
"[T]o all generations they [the prophets] have pictured forth the grandest subjects for contemplation and for action. Thus, too, they preached of the advent of God in the flesh to the world, his advent by the spotless and God-bearing (theotokos) Mary in the way of birth and growth, and the manner of his life and conversation with men, and his manifestation by baptism, and the new birth that was to be to all men, and the regeneration by the laver [of baptism]" (Discourse on the End of the World 1 [A.D. 217]).

46 And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me"
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.


Clearly from God' word.. "Mary has a FAMILY" Marys Family started at this PROPHESY.. From now on all generations will call me blessed!!

Mary's Generations are in Mary's family!
All of Mary' family honor Mary as MOTHER!
All of Mary's children are God' Children!
All of Mary's Children call Jesus BROTHER!

The Early Church Fathers named their Church "Catholic"!
Ignatius of Antioch Is a BISHOP.. he was instructed by the Apostle JOHN!
He said..
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans"8:2 [A.D. 110])."

In 110 A.D. Ignatius is telling you.. "Just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church"

Dogknox
annanicole
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1/18/2013 11:06:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Hahahaha .... this nut thinks I care what Iraneus, Hippolytus, and Ignatius had to say. Why, Dogknox, the so-called church fathers never heard of any "pope". What did Ignatius ever say about the pope? Nada. Not one word. How about Iraneus? Nothing. As such, did any of them ever hear of papal infallibility? Of course not. They disagreed and contradicted themselves and one another all the time, but one thing's for sure: they never heard of any pope of papal infallibility.
Dogknox
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1/18/2013 3:33:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/18/2013 11:06:24 AM, annanicole wrote:
Hahahaha .... this nut thinks I care what Iraneus, Hippolytus, and Ignatius had to say. Why, Dogknox, the so-called church fathers never heard of any "pope". What did Ignatius ever say about the pope? Nada. Not one word. How about Iraneus? Nothing. As such, did any of them ever hear of papal infallibility? Of course not. They disagreed and contradicted themselves and one another all the time, but one thing's for sure: they never heard of any pope of papal infallibility.
annanicole You ask about the authority of the Pope?

In reply: I Simply point you to the Scriptures....
Only Peter was given the keys to heaven.. KEYS mean authority!
Only Peter was made God' SHEPHERD!
Only Peter walks on water!
Only Peter raises the Dead!
Only Peter had his name Changed, by God!
God changed Peter's name to Cephas" (which, when translated, is ROCK)
Jesus formed his Church (Singular) on Peter, the rock!
Only Peter speaks for Jesus.. In Jesus' name with authority of Jesus!!

The Early Christians named Jesus' Church: CATHOLIC!

Acts 10:46
For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.


annanicole Clearly Jesus wanted them baptized with water! (above)
Peter would not have ordered them to be baptized with water if Jesus did not want them baptized with water!
Peter orders them to baptized in the Name of Jesus!
Speaking for Jesus, with Jesus' AUTHORITY, Peter orders them..
And guess what...?! They listen to Peter because he has the AUTHORITY to command men! Peter is Shepherd of God' Flock; SHEPHERD: The man in charge!
Peter represented Jesus and he spoke for Jesus, COMMANDING men as if Jesus himself was speaking.. "Baptize them with water!"

In also reply: to your question Of Why the so-called church fathers never heard of any "pope".
By pointing you to the Early Church..

**Clement of Alexandria is CHRISTIAN!!
Christians accepted the authority of Peter!
annanicole Clement is NOT in your churches!!
He said..
"[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3"5 [A.D. 200]).

Peter is honored as.. blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples,!!
annanicole The Early Church honored Peter as "CHOSEN by God!"

Clement of Alexandria
Tertullian
The Letter of Clement
Augustine
Iraneus
Hippolytus
Ignatius
annanicole All these CHRISTIANS (above) were all CATHOLICS!!!!
Not one, no not even one of these early CHRISTIANS was a member of; "Your restored churches of Christ"!
Should this FACT not ring alarm bells for you!? You fight against CHRISTIANS!!

**Tertullian tells you CHRISTIANS believe the scriptures, he points to you saying, you reject the words of God!
He said..
"For though you think that heaven is still shut up, remember that the Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church, which keys everyone will carry with him if he has been questioned and made a confession [of faith]" (Antidote Against the Scorpion 10 [A.D. 211]).

Clearly "THE CHURCH" Tertullian is telling you about must be the Holy Catholic Church! The Lord left the keys of it to Peter here, and through him to the Church,

**The Letter of Clement to James
He tells you...
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Did you see it??? Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church,
annanicole the early Church tells you Peter is the first of the apostles;!!! (above)

**Augustine is CHRISTIAN!!
He said..
"Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven"" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

Augustine Tells you Peter represents the CHURCH!!!!
annanicole Clearly The Church, can't be your churches!!!

annanicole Your church is trying to RESTORE Jesus' church!
Your churches believe Jesus was overpowered that Satan took Jesus' church from Jesus!
You do NOT need to restore Jesus church, because Jesus never left his Church!!
Jesus is ALWAYS WITH His church to the very end of the world!
annanicole to be in your man made churches you must reject Jesus and his scriptures! You must reject what CHRISTIANS have always taught and believed!

Dogknox
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1/18/2013 6:01:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
The bible does say Mary is in heaven.. Open your eyes.. read (below)

No it does NOT!

Story book Proofs it does not -

At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Revelation 12:1
A great sign appeared in heaven:

Figurative speech and this woman didn't appear ' in heaven ' but ' a sign appeared '!

Meaning a symbol / figurative representing some thing else!

Meaning also that this ' heaven ' is also figurative / symbolism and signifies something else altogether (way beyond your comprehension due to your miniscule catholic intellect)

At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.

Again symbolism / figurative; not literal!

At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.


Story book Mary wasn't ' pregnant in heaven ' and didn't ' give birth in heaven ' you dimwit!

At 1/16/2013 11:39:31 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Looks as if you are sucking slew water... Making stuff up!
Scriptures... A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman...

Clearly Mary is in heaven!!!!

Clearly you are a raving lunatic!

Your vindicated mentor, 50 year successful Cult busting personal successful literal Saviour, moi!
annanicole
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1/18/2013 6:36:38 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Dogknox: "Your churches believe Jesus was overpowered that Satan took Jesus' church from Jesus!"

Nobody said anything about Satan "overpowering" Jesus (other than you), and nobody said anything about Satan taking the church from Jesus (other than you). Has it occurred to you that you make alot of this stuff up?
Dogknox
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1/18/2013 6:43:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
John 14:15
"If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever" 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

help you and be with you forever

annanicole Clearly from Jesus' mouth...The Advocate "The Holy Spirit" is ALWAYS with Jesus' Church.. FOREVER WITH and IN Jesus' holy Church!

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

The Church Jesus formed did not fall away or the Holy Spirit is not perfect!
You believe the Holy Spirit ERRED that the Holy Spirit, God himself guided Jesus' Church into error!

You said.. Ummm ... he was with His church in the bestowal of miraculous gifts until the end of the age. The "age" ended, officially and conclusively, in AD 70.

If the Church Jesus formed fall away in 70 A.D. then Jesus lied.
annanicole If the Church Jesus formed fall away in 70 A.D. then you reject the scriptures!
If the Church Jesus is ALWAYS with to the end of the world is a lie then the Holy Spirit guided wrong!!
Jesus is ALWAYS WITH His Church!

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."

even unto the end of the world.

Matthew 28:20
Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
20 teaching them to keep all things, whatever things I have commanded to you; and lo! I am with you in all days, into the end of the world.

Matthew 28:20
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
20 Teach them to do all the things I have told you to do. I am with you always, even to the end of time.'

Jesus is ALWAYS WITH His Church to the END OF TIME!!!

annanicole clearly there is no need to restore Jesus' Church!!
Jesus.. (& The HOLY SPIRIT) tells you in his word>> "Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his Church to the End of TIME, to the End Of The WORLD!

Matthew 28:20
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
20 Teach them to obey everything I have commanded you. And you can be sure that I am always with you, to the very end."

Clearly Jesus will never leave his Church, he with his Church to the very END!

Matthew 28:20
New Century Version (NCV)
20 Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you, and I will be with you always, even until the end of this age."

Matthew 28:20
Knox Bible (KNOX)
20 teaching them to observe all the commandments which I have given you. And behold I am with you all through the days that are coming, until the consummation of the world.

annanicole Jesus is ALWAYS WITH His Church to the very consummation of the world!!!!

The Church Jesus formed did not fall away.. Jesus' Church does NOT NEED to be restored!!!

Matthew 28:20
J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
20 Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you and, remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the world."

Clearly the end of the age must be the "End of the world", the "consummation of the world", even to the end of time!!

The AGE can only be the "Church Age"!
The New Testament points to a growing Church, a Church with the AUTHORITY of Jesus to TEACH all nations! NOT a church that falls away!

1 Timothy 5:22
New International Version (NIV)
22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

annanicole Timothy is BISHOP.. Bishops "Lay hands" on those they appoint as priest, deacon!

The Church Jesus formed had BISHOPS with the authority to command and TEACH Men!
annanicole Timothy commanded and Taught men!

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God"s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

annanicole Scriptures are clear (above).. CHURCH.. SINGULAR!!! Jesus formed one CHURCH, not Churches (Plural)!
The CHURCH Jesus is ALWAYS WITH to the end of the world.. The CHURCH Jesus is ALWAYS WITH to the end of the world is the TRUTH!!

annanicole The Gates of hell will NOT prevail against the ONLY Church Jesus is always with!
Clearly from the scriptures there is NO NEED to restore Jesus' Church!!

Mark 3:24
"If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand."

"A (meaning only one) house divided against itself"?
Jesus formed ONE CHURCH.. "A" Church!
annanicole There are thousands of man made churches (Plural) including your CHURCHES!!!
Your churches will never stand, they are formed by MEN in the nineteenth century!!!
annanicole There was NO CHURCHES Of Christ until Restorationist Movement.

Clearly your church was named by these PEOPLE living during this Restorationist Movement, until then there was NO such thing as "churches of Christ"!
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Other terms have been recognized as scriptural, based on their use in the New Testament: "church of God", "church of the Lord", "churches of Christ", "church of the first-born", "church of the living God", "the house of God", and "the people of God".While recognized as scriptural, terms such as Church of God and Christian Church are avoided to avoid confusion or identification with other groups that use those designations.[25][26][34] As a practical matter, use of a common term is seen as a way to help individual Christians find congregations with a similar approach to the scriptures.[25][35] Members understand that a scriptural name can be used in a "denominational" or "sectarian" way.[25]:83"94,134"136[26]:31[33] Trying to use the term "Church of Christ" exclusively has been criticized as identifying a denomination.[25]:83"94,134"136[26]:31[33] Many congregations and individuals do not capitalize the word "church" in the phrases "church of Christ" and "churches of Christ".[36]:382[37] This is based on the understanding that the term "church of Christ" is used in the New Testament as a descriptive phrase, indicating that the church belongs to Christ, rather than as a proper name.[25]:91
annanicole Looks as if they considered a whack of names before deciding on "churches of Christ!"??????

The LDS... Name their church.. "Church of Jesus Christ"! Looks like you are not alone in naming your church after scripture!!! ahah

Dogknox
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1/18/2013 8:46:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
So whom / what do catholics claim is governing = ruling this earth at the moment Dogknox?

Is it your Story book alleged Satan or Story book jebus?
Dogknox
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1/18/2013 11:12:50 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/18/2013 6:36:38 PM,annanicol wrote:
Dogknox: "Your churches believe Jesus was overpowered that Satan took Jesus' church from Jesus!"

Nobody said anything about Satan "overpowering" Jesus (other than you), and nobody said anything about Satan taking the church from Jesus (other than you). Has it occurred to you that you make alot of this stuff up?

annanicole QUESTION... "Do you believe the Church Jesus formed fell away"? YES or NO!!!

annanicole Do you believe, the Restorationist Movement of the nineteenth century named your church!?
annanicole Do you believe, Jesus' Church needed to be restored!!!!

Do you believe the scriptures?
Matthew 28:20
Knox Bible (KNOX)
teaching them to observe all the commandments which I have given you. And behold I am with you all through the days that are coming, until the consummation of the world.

Matthew 28:20
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
Teach them to do all the things I have told you to do. I am with you always, even to the end of time.'

Clearly if Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his church, then he is still with his church today and his church does NOT need to be restored!
Clearly it is the same Church of the Early Church Father.. CATHOLIC every one!

Dogknox
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1/19/2013 12:16:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/18/2013 11:12:50 PM, Dogknox wrote:
Clearly it is the same Church of the Early Church Father.. CATHOLIC every one!

The Early fathers even according to catholic sources state they were NOT TRINITARIANS Unlike your Johnny Come Lately corrupt Cult now & they call you trinitarian catholics frauds, deceivers & liars!

"The formulation "One God in three Persons" was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.... Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. 14, p. 299).
annanicole
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1/20/2013 12:09:54 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/18/2013 11:12:50 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/18/2013 6:36:38 PM,annanicol wrote:
Dogknox: "Your churches believe Jesus was overpowered that Satan took Jesus' church from Jesus!"

Nobody said anything about Satan "overpowering" Jesus (other than you), and nobody said anything about Satan taking the church from Jesus (other than you). Has it occurred to you that you make alot of this stuff up?

annanicole QUESTION... "Do you believe the Church Jesus formed fell away"? YES or NO!!!

The overwhelming majority of it, YES!!! Satan didn't "overpower" it. Jesus didn't "leave" it. They left Jesus willingly.

annanicole Do you believe, the Restorationist Movement of the nineteenth century named your church!?

Not unless you think Paul was a 19th century restorationist. " ... the churches of Christ salute you ..." All I ever asked you to do in that regard is, "In a religious discussion, call Bible things by Bible names -and do not stray out of the Bible". I'd rather try to keep a colored woman at a cross-burning than try to keep you in the Bible.

annanicole Do you believe, Jesus' Church needed to be restored!!!!

Obviously, since I believe it walked away, gradually, from practically every teaching of the New Testament on a given subject.

Do you believe the scriptures?

Certainly. The question is, "Do you?"

Matthew 28:20
Knox Bible (KNOX)
teaching them to observe all the commandments which I have given you. And behold I am with you all through the days that are coming, until the consummation of the world.

Matthew 28:20
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
Teach them to do all the things I have told you to do. I am with you always, even to the end of time.'

Clearly if Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his church, then he is still with his church today and his church does NOT need to be restored!

The passage means: "Lo, I am with you always (for the specified period of time) even until the consummation of the age." You know that - and you know that "always" and "eternal" and "everlasting" do frequently do not mean "ceaseless" and "endless". If you don't, I'll take popish scholars and prove it to you.

Clearly it is the same Church of the Early Church Father.. CATHOLIC every one!

Not one of them ever heard of any "Catholic Church" - not a Greek one, a Roman one or any of the Poor Clares, Jesuits, Benedictines, Franciscans, Carmalites.

See? I answered your questions, without batting an eyebrow. Why don't you take a lesson, and do the same? I've asked you many times why you repeatedly tried to claim Peter is the Rock in Matt 16: 18, in plain defiance of the teachings and writings of Saint Augustine? You never have explained why you and Augustine differed so much - you just quit saying Peter is the Rock. Nobody's seen you blurt that one out lately.
Dogknox
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1/20/2013 9:13:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/20/2013 12:09:54 AM, annanicole wrote:
At 1/18/2013 11:12:50 PM, Dogknox wrote:
At 1/18/2013 6:36:38 PM,annanicol wrote:
Dogknox: "Your churches believe Jesus was overpowered that Satan took Jesus' church from Jesus!"

Nobody said anything about Satan "overpowering" Jesus (other than you), and nobody said anything about Satan taking the church from Jesus (other than you). Has it occurred to you that you make alot of this stuff up?

annanicole QUESTION... "Do you believe the Church Jesus formed fell away"? YES or NO!!!

The overwhelming majority of it, YES!!! Satan didn't "overpower" it. Jesus didn't "leave" it. They left Jesus willingly.

annanicole Do you believe, the Restorationist Movement of the nineteenth century named your church!?

Not unless you think Paul was a 19th century restorationist. " ... the churches of Christ salute you ..." All I ever asked you to do in that regard is, "In a religious discussion, call Bible things by Bible names -and do not stray out of the Bible". I'd rather try to keep a colored woman at a cross-burning than try to keep you in the Bible.

annanicole Do you believe, Jesus' Church needed to be restored!!!!

Obviously, since I believe it walked away, gradually, from practically every teaching of the New Testament on a given subject.

Do you believe the scriptures?

Certainly. The question is, "Do you?"

Matthew 28:20
Knox Bible (KNOX)
teaching them to observe all the commandments which I have given you. And behold I am with you all through the days that are coming, until the consummation of the world.

Matthew 28:20
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
Teach them to do all the things I have told you to do. I am with you always, even to the end of time.'

Clearly if Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his church, then he is still with his church today and his church does NOT need to be restored!

The passage means: "Lo, I am with you always (for the specified period of time) even until the consummation of the age." You know that - and you know that "always" and "eternal" and "everlasting" do frequently do not mean "ceaseless" and "endless". If you don't, I'll take popish scholars and prove it to you.

Clearly it is the same Church of the Early Church Father.. CATHOLIC every one!

Not one of them ever heard of any "Catholic Church" - not a Greek one, a Roman one or any of the Poor Clares, Jesuits, Benedictines, Franciscans, Carmalites.

See? I answered your questions, without batting an eyebrow. Why don't you take a lesson, and do the same? I've asked you many times why you repeatedly tried to claim Peter is the Rock in Matt 16: 18, in plain defiance of the teachings and writings of Saint Augustine? You never have explained why you and Augustine differed so much - you just quit saying Peter is the Rock. Nobody's seen you blurt that one out lately.

DID JESUS LEAVE HIS CHURCH?
You said.. The overwhelming majority of it, YES!!! Satan didn't "overpower" it. Jesus didn't "leave" it. They left Jesus willingly.

I reply: Last I talked to you.. YOUR WORDS..."Jesus left at the end of the age"!!

Now you admit: Jesus did not leave his CHURCH....
Jesus is still with his CHURCH today!!!

annanicole So the Church Jesus is ALWAYS WITH does not need to be restored!

The Church Jesus build on Peter.. is still around today!
The Church Jesus made Peter Shepherd of.. is still around today!
The Church that the Gates of hell will never prevail against.. is still around today!
The Church being Guided into all truth... is still around today!
The Church Jesus died for.. is still around today!
The Church that is without stain, HOLY and BLAMELESS..is still around today!
The Church Jesus loved.. is still around today!
The BRIDE of Jesus.. is still around today!

The Church Martin Luther came out of.. is still around today!
The Church that condemned Martin Luther..as heretic.. is still around today!
The Church that rejected "Faith & Scriptures ALONE"..is still around today!

The Church that eats the flesh of Jesus, in the form of bread.. is still around today!
The Church that drinks the blood of Jesus, in the form of wine.. is still around today!
1 Corinthians 11:24
took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord"s death until he comes.
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.


I asked.. Do you believe, the Restorationist Movement of the nineteenth century named your church!?
You said.. Not unless you think Paul was a 19th century restorationist. " ... the churches of Christ salute you ..." All I ever asked you to do in that regard is, "In a religious discussion, call Bible things by Bible names -and do not stray out of the Bible". I'd rather try to keep a colored woman at a cross-burning than try to keep you in the Bible.

I reply until the Restoration Movement there was NO church called "churches of Christ"!
annanicole The first time a church with the name "churches of Christ" appeared was in the nineteenth century!
Same with the LDS church, "Church of Jesus Christ"!
Same with the church named, "church of God".
Same with the church named, "church of the Lord".
Same with the church named, "church of the first-born".
Same with the church named, "church of the living God".
Same with the church named, "the house of God".
Same with the church named, "the people of God".

annanicole All churches are made by men except Jesus' One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church! ONLY ONE Church has traceable ROOTS going back two thousand years.. and it is not the man made church named "churches of Christ"!

annanicole Your argument is with God and HISTORY!!
Your church was made by men, trying to RESTORE Jesus' Church!! Men who rejected Jesus words.."I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the world"!

annanicole "Jesus remained with his Church, to the end of the world!" Jesus' church was not named "churches (plural) of Christ"! It was named "CATHOLIC" by Christians including Paul!

Historical FACTS:
1774, Theophilus Lindley started Unitarians.
1789, Samuel Seabury started Episcopalians.
1793-1809, Churches of Christ had four separate founders.
1830, Joseph Smith founded the Mormons in Palmyra New York.
1860, William Miller, a farmer, started the Adventists.
1863, Ellen Gould White started the Seventh-Day Adventists.
1865, William Booth started the Salvation Army.
1875, New Age was started by Helena Blavatsky. *COL 2:8
1879, Mary Baker Eddy started Christian Scientists.
1879, Charles Russell started the Jehovah's
annanicole
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1/20/2013 11:33:34 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Dogknox: "I reply: Last I talked to you.. YOUR WORDS..."Jesus left at the end of the age"!!"

Reply: I said Jesus "left" in the sense that He was with them at that time. Matthew 28:18-20 ".... until the consummation or completion of the age" refers to the miraculous age. The miraculous age was the period in which they were speaking in tongues, raising the dead, etc., and it last until around AD70. Jesus left the church in THAT sense: when the building - the completion of the inspired word of God - was completed, the scaffolding was removed. The OT prophets had foretold that the age would last about 30 years, and so it did: Jesus turned water into wine (His first miracle) in about AD 30.

I was later referring to the apostacy of the majority of the church.

Dogknox: "Now you admit: Jesus did not leave his CHURCH....
Jesus is still with his CHURCH today!!!"

Reply: I don't know where you got that. I said Jesus LEFT the early church in the sense that miracles ended in approx AD70 AD. He departed in that sense. The "age" was over. The word was confirmed.

After that, the church willingly walked away from Jesus - it abandoned practically everything: organization, teachings, worship, name, EVERYTHING. I never said Jesus left. I said the church left.

The Church Jesus build on Peter.. is still around today!
The Church Jesus made Peter Shepherd of.. is still around today!
The Church that the Gates of hell will never prevail against.. is still around today!

Dogknox, those are just your bare assertions, and they make no sense. I never said the "gates of Hades will never prevail agains the church". I said the gates of Hades did not prevail against the BUILDING of the church in Acts 2. The rest of your "still around today" business is nothing more than rhetoric and assertions, and thus meaningless.

Dogknox: "The Church that condemned Martin Luther..as heretic.. is still around today!"

Reply: Yeah, the same church that condemned Pope Honorius as a heretic? The one that was guided by an infalliable heretic for years? Sure, Dogknox. Explain that for us. Exactly how can a condemned heretic rise to be the infallible vicar of Christ on earth.

Dogknox: "I reply until the Restoration Movement there was NO church called "churches of Christ"!"

Reply: Who was that in Romans 16: 16? "... the churches of Christ salute you"? It looks to me like churches of Christ were around in the 1st century.

Dogknox: "annanicole The first time a church with the name "churches of Christ" appeared was in the nineteenth century!"

Was Romans 16: 16 written in the 19th century?

Dogknox: "annanicole "Jesus remained with his Church, to the end of the world!"

Reply: I've already told you that Jesus remained WITH HIS CHURCH in a miraculous form for about 40 years - until the end of the age.

Dogknox: "Men who rejected Jesus words.."I am with you ALWAYS to the very end of the world"!"

Reply: How could we reject it? I've told you what it meant. Look at your predicament! God wasn't GUIDING a bunch of idiots who appointed the heretic Honorius. God wasn't GUIDING the lunatics who imprisoned Galileo for simply telling the truth. It's hilarious that the pope NOW believes exactly what a prior pope imprisoned Galileo for! God isn't GUIDING people who told us for years and years that the "Apostolic Constitutions" were genuine - and quoted them, and used them as authoritative, yet NOW admits that they are forgeries.

So now you can explain:

(1) Why did God allow a condemned heretic to occupy Peter's chair? Honorius was condemned forty years after he died as a heretic. LOL @ the pope being a heretic. Anyway, explain it.

(2) Why did the Roman Catholic church cite, quote, utilize and indeed justify some doctrines based upon Apostolic Constitutions for hundreds of years, and dozens of citations - yet now tells us the whole thing was a fraud? Don't they know any better?

(3) Exactly why did the Pope have an Inquistional Hearing and condemn and inprison Galileo for believing and teaching the SAME THING that the pope now believes? Is that infallible guidance?

I'll await your answers, even though we all know the Catholic record on here for answering anything that's not convenient. AlwaysMoreThanYou was the only one that ever tried it. You never did. You won't answer anything that casts a bad light on Catholicism - you just ramble about "Jesus never leaving His church", and trying to convince us that THAT means "Jesus will never leave the Roman Catholic church." LOL

Anyway, you got 3 simple questions. Well, 4. I previously asked this one, and of course, you failed to explain it - as usual:

"I've asked you many times why you repeatedly tried to claim Peter is the Rock in Matt 16: 18, in plain defiance of the teachings and writings of Saint Augustine? You never have explained why you and Augustine differed so much - you just quit saying Peter is the Rock. Nobody's seen you blurt that one out lately."

So that's four little questions. I answered yours. Let's see how you do.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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1/21/2013 2:28:51 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/20/2013 11:33:34 PM, annanicole wrote:
AlwaysMoreThanYou was the only one that ever tried it.

Ohai. Maybe I'll try again.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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1/21/2013 2:59:15 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/20/2013 11:33:34 PM, annanicole wrote:
(1) Why did God allow a condemned heretic to occupy Peter's chair? Honorius was condemned forty years after he died as a heretic. LOL @ the pope being a heretic. Anyway, explain it.

As far as I know, Honorius' posthumous condemnation was because 'he permitted the immaculate faith to be subverted.', according to Pope Leo II.

Similarly, Wikipedia puts forth:

'Leo took great pains to make it clear that in condemning Honorius, he did so not because Honorius taught heresy, but because he was not active enough in opposing it.'

Until you provide further information, I will let my response stand.

(2) Why did the Roman Catholic church cite, quote, utilize and indeed justify some doctrines based upon Apostolic Constitutions for hundreds of years, and dozens of citations - yet now tells us the whole thing was a fraud? Don't they know any better?

I have no idea what the Apostolic Constitutions are. Please stand by.

(3) Exactly why did the Pope have an Inquistional Hearing and condemn and inprison Galileo for believing and teaching the SAME THING that the pope now believes? Is that infallible guidance?

Was Galileo condemned for believing and teaching the 'SAME THING' that the Pope now believes?

Please show what Galileo was condemned/imprisoned for.

As far as I know, neither the Pope nor a Council condemned Galileo; he was condemned by a fallible tribune primarily for disciplinary purposes.

I'll await your answers, even though we all know the Catholic record on here for answering anything that's not convenient. AlwaysMoreThanYou was the only one that ever tried it. You never did. You won't answer anything that casts a bad light on Catholicism - you just ramble about "Jesus never leaving His church", and trying to convince us that THAT means "Jesus will never leave the Roman Catholic church." LOL

Come at me :P

Anyway, you got 3 simple questions. Well, 4. I previously asked this one, and of course, you failed to explain it - as usual:

"I've asked you many times why you repeatedly tried to claim Peter is the Rock in Matt 16: 18, in plain defiance of the teachings and writings of Saint Augustine? You never have explained why you and Augustine differed so much - you just quit saying Peter is the Rock. Nobody's seen you blurt that one out lately."

There's nothing that states St. Augustine's interpretation of the passage absolutely must stand. However:

'Moved by the grace of the Holy Spirit and drawn by the Father, we believe in Jesus and confess: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. On the rock of this faith confessed by St. Peter, Christ built his Church.' - CCC "424

'Simon Peter holds the first place in the college of the Twelve; Jesus entrusted a unique mission to him. Through a revelation from the Father, Peter had confessed: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Our Lord then declared to him: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it." Christ, the "living Stone", thus assures his Church, built on Peter, of victory over the powers of death. Because of the faith he confessed Peter will remain the unshakable rock of the Church. His mission will be to keep this faith from every lapse and to strengthen his brothers in it.' - CCC "552

So that's four little questions. I answered yours. Let's see how you do.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Dogknox
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1/21/2013 11:48:32 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
annanicole You said..
I said Jesus "left" in the sense that He was with them at that time. Matthew 28:18-20 ".... until the consummation or completion of the age" refers to the miraculous age. The miraculous age was the period in which they were speaking in tongues, raising the dead, etc., and it last until around AD70. Jesus left the church in THAT sense: when the building - the completion of the inspired word of God - was completed, the scaffolding was removed. The OT prophets had foretold that the age would last about 30 years, and so it did: Jesus turned water into wine (His first miracle) in about AD 30.

I reply:.. Jesus is ALWAYS with his church to the very end of the WORLD!!!
The "AGE" is the "CHURCH Age"!! The Body of Jesus will ALWAYS BE!!!! You are wrong to think the , the scaffolding was removed. because the CHURCH is still growing, in her understanding and in her size!
Example "The BIBLE" was made 400 years AFTER Jesus BY his CHURCH, the Holy Catholic Church! The Pope closed the Canon of scriptures 400 years after Jesus!
The CHURCH made her creeds and defended Jesus from attacks against the "Trinity & the Incarnation" well after 70 A.D.!
The only reason you are not Muslim today is because the CHURCH Jesus formed, defended Christianity against them!!
annanicole The only reason you believe the Trinity and the incarnation today is because HERETICS did not get their way; The CATHOLIC Church ALONE stood up against their lies, well after 70 A.D.!!!

annanicole The ONLY Reason you want to believe your man made "churches of Christ" is right is because you believed the TEACHING of the Deformers they first taught"Scriptures ALONE" sixteen hundred years AFTER Jesus!
Your man made church would never be.. If it was not for the "deformation" coming along sixteen Hundred years AFTER Jesus formed his Church!

annanicole Your church has zero roots going back to Jesus!!

Your roots are traceable back to the "deformation" then you can't trace them back any further!
Scriptures are clear..
20 teaching them to keep all things, whatever things I have commanded to you; and lo! I am with you in all days, into the end of the world.

I am with you in all days, into the end of the world.

QUESTION: How can the Church "Baptize ALL Nations" if she was NO more after 70 A.D.!
How could she Baptize All nations in the ninth century or the fourteenth century.. Or even today, if she was no more, after 70 A.D.

You can't point at the ninth century and say.. "Look here is the "churches of Christ"! There was NO "churches of Christ" until the eighteenth century.

Here is a small sampling of the 33,800+ non-Catholic denominations, and the dates of founding:
annanicole Your church is just ONE of the many many thousands started by men!!!!
1521, Martin Luther started the Lutherans when he broke away from the one true Church that had already existed for 15 centuries. Prior to this time, the false doctrine of "Sola Scriptura", or "Bible only", had not existed, and neither had the false man made doctrine of "Individual Interpretation" of Holy Scripture.
1521, Thomas Munzer started Anabaptists by breaking from Lutheranism in the same year.
1534, King Henry VIII started the Church of England. (Anglican)
1536, John Calvin, teaching predestination, formed the Calvinists.
1560, John Knox, who studied under Luther, started Presbyterians.
1582, Congregationalists started by Rob Brown, as a branch from Puritanism.
1609, John Smyth formed the Baptists. They have severely splintered since then.
1739, John Wesley started the Methodists, in a split from Anglicanism.
1774, Theophilus Lindley started Unitarians.
1789, Samuel Seabury started Episcopalians.
1793-1809, Churches of Christ had four separate founders.
1830, Joseph Smith founded the Mormons in Palmyra New York.
1860, William Miller, a farmer, started the Adventists.
1863, Ellen Gould White started the Seventh-Day Adventists.
1865, William Booth started the Salvation Army.
1875, New Age was started by Helena Blavatsky. *COL 2:8
1879, Mary Baker Eddy started Christian Scientists.
1879, Charles Russell started the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1895, French Abbe, Alfred Loisy and English Jesuit, George Tyrrell started Modernism.
1900-1920, conservative Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Methodists,
formed a consortium, and started Fundamentalism.
1901, Pentecostalism was started in the United States. It has since split into many independents.
1914, Felix Manalo started Iglesia ni Cristo.
1930, Independent Churches of America (IFCA), was formed by a consortium of churches.
1952, L. Ron Hubbard started the Church of Scientology.
1965, Chuck Smith began Calvary Chapel.
1968, Disciples of Christ, started as a splinter of Churches of Christ.
1974, Ken Gullickson started the Vineyard Christian Fellowship.
20th century. Assemblies of GOD, and other splinter Pentecostal groups, are some of hundreds of new sects founded by mere men.


annanicole All of these man made churches (above) claim to have the ONLY TRUTH.. not two believe the same.. ALL claim to believe only the scriptures.."Sola Scriptura" all reject the ONLY Church Jesus is ALWAYS WITH to the very end of the WORLD!!!
annanicole Your is just one of the many thousands, you can't prove otherwise!!!!
You have placed the salvation of your soul in LIES of men, rejecting Jesus and his bride!

I am with you in all days, into the end of the world.
Dogknox
annanicole
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1/21/2013 12:13:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
Dogknox: "Jesus is ALWAYS with his church to the very end of the WORLD!!!"

Reply: "The age" is a more correct translation, as you should know

Dogknox: "The "AGE" is the "CHURCH Age"!! "

Reply: That's not an explanation. That's an assertion. The phrase does not have to mean that.

Dogknox: "You are wrong to think the , the scaffolding was removed. because the CHURCH is still growing"

Reply: By scaffolding, I meant the temporary miraculous endowments of the 1st century. Church growth has nothing to do with it.

Dogknox: "Example "The BIBLE" was made 400 years AFTER Jesus BY his CHURCH, the Holy Catholic Church! "

Reply: All the scriptures existed and were used prior to their compliation in the Bible. Nobody ever said they had to all be collected into one book in order to effect salvation.

Dogknox: "The CHURCH made her creeds and defended Jesus from attacks against the "Trinity & the Incarnation" well after 70 A.D.!"

Reply: That's one of her apostacies - the making of creeds.

Dogknox: "The only reason you believe the Trinity and the incarnation today is because HERETICS did not get their way"

Reply: Why, I can take the Bible and prove that the Trinity is necessarily implied. What heretics like you say has no effect on me.

The rest of your post is pure rhetoric - and you never answered a single question.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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1/21/2013 12:57:40 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/20/2013 11:33:34 PM, annanicole wrote:
So that's four little questions. I answered yours. Let's see how you do.

Does this mean I'm now allowed to ask aggressive, loaded questions?
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
annanicole
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1/21/2013 1:32:24 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
AMTY: "As far as I know, Honorius' posthumous condemnation was because 'he permitted the immaculate faith to be subverted.', according to Pope Leo II." and "Leo took great pains to make it clear that in condemning Honorius, he did so not because Honorius taught heresy, but because he was not active enough in opposing it."

Reply: Well, he was condemned by three ecumentical councils (the 6th, 7th and 8th) - and every pope for 200 years after him was sworn against him. And yes, he was condemned post-humously (which is worse) because he was a heretic, but died without knowing it. A heretic pope leading the Catholic church for thirteen years? And died with an untarnished reputation?

The difference between supporting or teaching error versus "not opposing error actively enough" is but an effort at smokescreening it by flipping the objective into the subjective.

The Catholic church still percolated along for 13 years with a heretic at the helm

AMTY: "Was Galileo condemned for believing and teaching the 'SAME THING' that the Pope now believes?"

Reply: Yep. Here is the first section of the papal condemnation of June 22, 1633.

"Whereas you, Galileo, son of the late Vaincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, were in the year 1615 denounced to this Holy Office for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable and that the Earth moves, and also with a diurnal motion; for having disciples to whom you taught the same doctrine; for holding correspondence with certain mathematicians of Germany concerning the same; for having printed certain letters, entitled "On the Sunspots," wherein you developed the same doctrine as true; and for replying to the objections from the Holy Scriptures, which from time to time were urged against it, by glossing the said Scriptures according to your own meaning: and whereas there was thereupon produced the copy of a document in the form of a letter, purporting to be written by you to one formerly your disciple, and in this divers propositions are set forth, following the position of Copernicus, which are contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture"

Sure the pope NOW thinks the earth revolves around the sun, and not vice versa. They condemned him and imprisoned him, saying:

"The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith."

Of course, his books were placed on the "Index Expurgatorius" in 1616 - then they were removed two hundred years later (1829)

AWTY: "As far as I know, neither the Pope nor a Council condemned Galileo; he was condemned by a fallible tribune primarily for disciplinary purposes."

Reply: The "problem" with Galileo had been going on for twenty-plus years. Certainly the pope knew what was going on. Galileo was called before the Inquisition: Pope Paul V was the chairman of the Inquisition. Here is the meat of the ruling:

"We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine"which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures"that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture; and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you."

But Galileo was not in error on the topic - the Catholic church was. You should see some of the explanations. One that I saw online portrays Galileo as a relentless persecutor and the Roman Catholic church as a passive victim which was forced, reluctantly, into self-defense mode. I had to laugh.

Listen to the descriptors of Galileo from it: "Galileo forced another showdown" .... "made fun of the pope" ..."mocked" the pope ... "insisted" ... "compelled". The Catholic Church, on the other hand, was "weary" and "treated him surprisingly well." Man!

AMTY: "There's nothing that states St. Augustine's interpretation of the passage absolutely must stand."

Reply: Well, of course not. Nobody really cares what Augustine had to say, other than as it relates to historical interests - except Dogknox. And he'll quote Iraneus, Ignatius, Augustine, etc profusely when he can't get any lather from the scriptures. The early Christian writers frequently contradicted themselves and one another, so much so that I can prove practically anything by quoting "church fathers."

The truth of the matter is that there IS no infallibility in any person or personage or institution. Why have to run around saying, "Oh, he wasn't speaking infallibly there" all the time? I can speak just as infallibly as the pope - maybe moreso - and so can you.

I've asked before: "What is the weightiest, most "case-closed", authority in the Catholic Church?" To Christians and Protestants, the Bible is the ultimate authority. To the Roman Catholic, the pope is. That's the difference. Ultimately, the letter of the Pope is more authoritative than the writings of Peter and Paul.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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1/21/2013 1:54:55 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/21/2013 1:32:24 PM, annanicole wrote:
Reply: Well, he was condemned by three ecumentical councils (the 6th, 7th and 8th) -

Could you please quote the condemnations by the ecumenical councils and correctly source them?

and every pope for 200 years after him was sworn against him. And yes, he was condemned post-humously (which is worse) because he was a heretic, but died without knowing it.

I've yet to see a single condemnation of Honorius for Monotheliteism.

A heretic pope leading the Catholic church for thirteen years? And died with an untarnished reputation?

I don't believe he was a heretic in the sense that he believed or taught error, rather that he was culpable of being grossly negligent when he had opportunity to attack the heresy at it's roots.

The difference between supporting or teaching error versus "not opposing error actively enough" is but an effort at smokescreening it by flipping the objective into the subjective.

It's completely different. Not acting against something versus actively supporting it is not the same at all. What an intellectually dishonest response.

The Catholic church still percolated along for 13 years with a heretic at the helm

AMTY: "Was Galileo condemned for believing and teaching the 'SAME THING' that the Pope now believes?"

Reply: Yep. Here is the first section of the papal condemnation of June 22, 1633.

"Whereas you, Galileo, son of the late Vaincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, were in the year 1615 denounced to this Holy Office for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable and that the Earth moves, and also with a diurnal motion; for having disciples to whom you taught the same doctrine; for holding correspondence with certain mathematicians of Germany concerning the same; for having printed certain letters, entitled "On the Sunspots," wherein you developed the same doctrine as true; and for replying to the objections from the Holy Scriptures, which from time to time were urged against it, by glossing the said Scriptures according to your own meaning: and whereas there was thereupon produced the copy of a document in the form of a letter, purporting to be written by you to one formerly your disciple, and in this divers propositions are set forth, following the position of Copernicus, which are contrary to the true sense and authority of Holy Scripture"

'[Signed:]

F. Cardinal of Ascoli
B. Cardinal Gessi
G. Cardinal Bentivoglio
F. Cardinal Verospi
Fr. D. Cardinal of Cremona
M. Cardinal Ginetti
Fr. Ant. s Cardinal of. S. Onofrio'


Sure the pope NOW thinks the earth revolves around the sun, and not vice versa. They condemned him and imprisoned him, saying:

"The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith."

Of course, his books were placed on the "Index Expurgatorius" in 1616 - then they were removed two hundred years later (1829)

AWTY: "As far as I know, neither the Pope nor a Council condemned Galileo; he was condemned by a fallible tribune primarily for disciplinary purposes."

Reply: The "problem" with Galileo had been going on for twenty-plus years. Certainly the pope knew what was going on. Galileo was called before the Inquisition: Pope Paul V was the chairman of the Inquisition. Here is the meat of the ruling:

"We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine"which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures"that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture; and that consequently you have incurred all the censures and penalties imposed and promulgated in the sacred canons and other constitutions, general and particular, against such delinquents. From which we are content that you be absolved, provided that, first, with a sincere heart and unfeigned faith, you abjure, curse, and detest before use the aforesaid errors and heresies and every other error and heresy contrary to the Catholic and Apostolic Roman Church in the form to be prescribed by us for you."

'have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office'

He was condemned by the Holy Office, not by a Council nor a Pope.

But Galileo was not in error on the topic - the Catholic church was. You should see some of the explanations. One that I saw online portrays Galileo as a relentless persecutor and the Roman Catholic church as a passive victim which was forced, reluctantly, into self-defense mode. I had to laugh.

Listen to the descriptors of Galileo from it: "Galileo forced another showdown" .... "made fun of the pope" ..."mocked" the pope ... "insisted" ... "compelled". The Catholic Church, on the other hand, was "weary" and "treated him surprisingly well." Man!

Galileo was right, but he hadn't even managed to prove his theory by the standards of the day, and he was already demanding that the Sacred Scriptures be read from his view.

AMTY: "There's nothing that states St. Augustine's interpretation of the passage absolutely must stand."

Reply: Well, of course not. Nobody really cares what Augustine had to say, other than as it relates to historical interests - except Dogknox. And he'll quote Iraneus, Ignatius, Augustine, etc profusely when he can't get any lather from the scriptures. The early Christian writers frequently contradicted themselves and one another, so much so that I can prove practically anything by quoting "church fathers."

Thus, it doesn't really matter at all if or why Dogknox disagrees with Augustine at all. I might just as pointlessly ask you why you disagree with St. Justin Martyr's First Apology.

The truth of the matter is that there IS no infallibility in any person or personage or institution. Why have to run around saying, "Oh, he wasn't speaking infallibly there" all the time? I can speak just as infallibly as the pope - maybe moreso - and so can you.

You've said it, ergo est.

I've asked before: "What is the weightiest, most "case-closed", authority in the Catholic Church?" To Christians and Protestants, the Bible is the ultimate authority. To the Roman Catholic, the pope is. That's the difference. Ultimately, the letter of the Pope is more authoritative than the writings of Peter and Paul.

See above.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Dogknox
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1/21/2013 3:27:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
annanicole
You asked.. Reply: Yeah, the same church that condemned Pope Honorius as a heretic? The one that was guided by an infalliable heretic for years? Sure, Dogknox. Explain that for us. Exactly how can a condemned heretic rise to be the infallible vicar of Christ on earth.
I reply: Father Mateo Archives, October 20, 1993
The Popes: A Concise Biographical History (ed. Eric John) says: "In the case of Pope Honorius, since he was obviously dealing with a matter properly the subject of an infallible pronouncement, the problem is, whether he was speaking ex cathedra, and, if so, was he really teaching error.... He was certainly in ignorance of the true state of affairs: it is not likely that such an occasion could be then considered as the pope speaking ex cathedra. Again he was not in any sense denying the orthodox doctrine, but merely giving assent to the formula which he understood very differently from the heretic he was writing to. Whilst the case of the condemnation of Pope Honorius for heresy certainly raises important questions for the INTERPRETATION of the doctrine of papal infallibility, it hardly threatens the BASIC FORMULATION of that dogma" (page 115).
annanicole Clearly Jesus left a VISIBLE Church with his AUTHORITY!!
Your church was NOT left by Jesus your church has ZERO authority!

You said.. Dogknox, those are just your bare assertions, and they make no sense. I never said the "gates of Hades will never prevail agains the church". I said the gates of Hades did not prevail against the BUILDING of the church in Acts 2. The rest of your "still around today" business is nothing more than rhetoric and assertions, and thus meaningless.

Scriptures.. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

annanicole the gates of Hades will not overcome it. EVER!!!!
You are WRONG>>>> Thinking that the Gates of hell will prevail against Jesus' body AFTER it is built is saying; "Satan overpowered God!"
Thinking that the Gates of hell will prevail against Jesus' Church AFTER it is built is saying: "The Holy Spirit guides into error!!!" It is saying God is NOT PERFECT!!
annanicole Saying, the Gates of hell will prevail against Jesus' Church AFTER it is built is TWISTING THE SCRIPTURES!!!

You ask.. Who was that in Romans 16: 16? "... the churches of Christ salute you"? It looks to me like churches of Christ were around in the 1st century.

I reply: The "churches" mentioned can only be the Catholic Church in the areas spread around the area.
Read it in CONTEXT..
Romans 16:1
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. 2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. 4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

6 Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

8 Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord.

9 Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

10 Greet Apelles, whose fidelity to Christ has stood the test.

Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.

11 Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.

Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.

12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the other brothers and sisters with them.

15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the Lord"s people who are with them.

16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.

All the churches of Christ send greetings.


annanicole Clearly ALL the churches Paul mentions (above) are "THE Church" "One BODY, IN CHRIST"!! ONE CHURCH, one TEACHING, One FAITH in various towns!!!
Clearly verse #17.. (below) points to ONE CHURCH!! Watch out for those who cause divisions

17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

Watch out for those who cause divisions tells you, they all believe the same thing.. ONE CHURCH!!!
They are ONE CHURCH with groups in various places!
In various places, they are churches of ONE FAITH! Thus Paul's word "CHURCHES"!

Jesus formed ONE CHURCH not churches!

Dogknox
annanicole
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1/21/2013 3:54:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 1/21/2013 12:57:40 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 1/20/2013 11:33:34 PM, annanicole wrote:
So that's four little questions. I answered yours. Let's see how you do.

Does this mean I'm now allowed to ask aggressive, loaded questions?

No, I might have to go "research" them
annanicole
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1/21/2013 4:20:17 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
AMTY: "He was condemned by the Holy Office, not by a Council nor a Pope."

Reply: Oh. Lemme guess. The Holy Office (which I know nothing about - the Bible fails to mention it) was, of course, commissioned by the pope. The fact that such an office existed was, in the end, the decision of the pope. The pope commissioned them. The pope sanctioned them. Further, the pope knew Galileo - they weren't strangers. He knew his case. Thus, the Office of the Inquisition which imprisoned Galileo was merely an agent of the pope.

Here is the simplied version of what the Catholic church teaches about infallibility:

"Three conditions must be met for a pope to exercise the charism of infallibility: (1) he must speak in his official capacity as the successor of Peter; (2) he must speak on a matter of faith or morals; and (3) he must solemnly define the doctrine as one that must be held by all the faithful."

But who knows when he is speaking in his "official capacity"? Who decides whether a particular issue is a "matter of faith or morals" or not? Is there a difference between "solemning defining" and "not-so-solemnly" defining? If so, who determines the difference?

Of course, the Bible says nothing about any of that. It's all made-up. It turns out, depending upon the source - and they are all different, that papa averages utilizing this special "charism" - this "gift" - perhaps about once per century. According to some sources, it would be once every couple hundred years. Betwixt and between, the "definings" and "infallible utterances", he apparently screws up like everyone else.

Of course, a non-Catholic can hardly win when discussing infallibility: a Catholic is like a greased-pig on the subject. When the popes are trapped on numerous heresies, condemnations, etc, guess what? The Catholic will demand endless sources, for one thing. I've seen them say the Latin was "mistranslated." Then if all else fails, the clincher: "Sure, he was a heretic. But he wasn't acting infallibly at the time!" If I were Roman Catholic, I'd skip all the preliminaries, and just move on to that clincher: "Pope So-and-So was NOT acting infallibly at the time he screwed up." We all know that's how it's gonna turn out in the end. If someone doesn't believe me, try it.
Dogknox
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1/21/2013 5:56:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
annanicole Your Church has zero authority to decide truth, yet you believe your church over the scriptures, God' words!

Jesus' One Church Jesus formed will never fail, it is guided forever by God, into all truth! You say.. "Nope not forever, the Church Jesus formed failed at 70 A.D.!"
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever"
annanicole To be a member of your man made "churches of Christ" you must reject Jesus' words! You must believe Jesus needs help to restore his body back to him, by your church!

Jesus' body is the "Household of God!"
1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God"s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

God' house will last forever, His CHURCH is the Pillar of TRUTH!
"The church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth."
annanicole Do you see it.. "The church of the living God"!!! Does them mean there is another church other then "churches of Christ"? ha-ha!!!! Another church formed by Paul called The church of the living God NOTICE this The church of the living God is SINGULAR not PLURAL!!!

You say: "Jesus' body fell as soon as the scaffolding came down!"
Clearly you have placed the salvation of your soul in the teaching of these men that named your church; "churches of Christ"! (PLURAL)

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"their Lord and ours:

Do you see it.. The church of God?? Does this mean there is another church other then "churches of Christ"? ha-ha!!!! Does this "CHURCH (Singular) of God" mean God formed only ONE CHURCH!!!????

Jesus formed ONE Church.. Christians named the ONLY CHURCH Jesus formed: Catholic Church!

Dogknox
Composer
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1/21/2013 7:24:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The catholic Cult has produced many Paedophiles, & Or Nun-Raping catholic priests -

Oops!

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit , . . . . (Matt. 7:18) KJV Story book

A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, . . . . . . . . . (Matt. 7:18) catholic Story book RSV 1965 edition

A good tree cannot produce bad fruit . . . . . . . (Matt. 7:18) Digital catholic bible 1.3 Story book

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