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wrong to judge someone for their beliefs?

mattrodstrom
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2/23/2013 9:04:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/23/2013 8:58:18 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't disagree that it takes a bit of critical thinking to end up 'converting' from a religion to being an atheist.. And do agree that people who've previously been religious and have become atheists are, on average, more intelligent.

Probably, that is.. :/

There's a lot to it that builds into what a person considers and such.. But given that 'converting' to atheism does usually imply a bit of independent questioning, and independent reasoning..
it Probably tilts the scales such that those who've turned atheist are, on average, smarter than those who haven't.
(b/c, when looked at on this basis alone, the one group has a disposition towards critical thinking, while the other group doesn't have any unifying characteristics that've been identified)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
EvanK
Posts: 640
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2/23/2013 4:21:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

If I meet someone, I usually don't bring up religion or politics for this reason. I value someone's friendship over religious or political views, and it isn't worth destroying a friendship over. In other words, I get to know a person and see what they really are about, and don't have to make assumptions based off of their beliefs.

Most everyone in my family are Christian (in fact, I'm the only atheist/non religious I know of in both sides of the family) and I get along with everyone. No reason to look down on them for their beliefs. Same for my friends. All Christian, and no problem with us being friends.

Looking at it as, "well they're lacking logic skills, or just thinking wishfully" is wrong in my opinion. The human brain works in mysterious ways we don't fully understand (that sounds religious doesn't it? :P) but some people need religious beliefs to get them through life in this world. As I think Sam Harris says, religious belief is ultimately based off of the fear of dying, and also the fear of never seeing a loved one again after they die. Sometimes it's really hard for people to think that this is the end, and just need religion to get them through. There's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, so long as they don't get stick it in your face, which I don't think my family would.

Just my thoughts.
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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2/23/2013 7:56:12 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/23/2013 7:03:04 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
I think religion is best viewed as a type of ideology. One purpose of ideology is to provide quick answers to questions. No one is able to resolve every important question from scratch, but we all want answers to questions, even if we recognize that we cannot resolve them with certainty. Christians have an answer to, "Why s there evil in the world?" that runs along the lines of, "Because humans sin by not following the teachings of Christ." That begs the question to a degree, bu it is more intelligent than the modern political ideological answers like, "Because capitalism exploits workers." or other pathetic attempts at scapegoating popular among the liberal elite.

So, yes, I do judge Christians by their beliefs, in the same way that I judge other ideologues. I don't think they come off badly. They compare favorably to modern alternative belief systems. Atheist should not view Christianity as a static institution. While Christians sometimes claim that the religion has not evolved, quite obviously it has. Darwinism has gotten rid of the violence of the Middle Ages. The Divine Right of Kings is gone. Not so modern political ideologies. For example, the Occupy Wall Street movement is admired for it's use of violence against non-believers. That's primitive.

How did Darwinism get rid of violence?
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
1Devilsadvocate
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2/23/2013 8:10:57 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

Wrong, haughty, & frankly bigoted.

Aside from the gr8 points made by popculture, Dakotatrafficer, & Roy. I would add the following 2 ideas:

1) Realize that if you had a debate with WLC...

2) Do an actual Debate with someone like; KR fourier, popculture, Inquire truth, thett3, J Kenyon, reformed arsonal, 16kadams, etc.
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,518
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2/23/2013 8:16:02 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/23/2013 12:54:45 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:35:24 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

I expect such malarky because of your age... is that wrong?

I expect more than talking down to someone younger than you because of your age...is that wrong?

He wasn't talking down to him because of his age. He was making a point about how wrong his line of reasoning was by using it himself.

(Correct me if I'm wrong, Apeiron.)
DakotaKrafick
Posts: 1,518
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2/23/2013 8:20:39 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/23/2013 8:10:57 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

Wrong, haughty, & frankly bigoted.

Aside from the gr8 points made by popculture, Dakotatrafficer, & Roy. I would add the following 2 ideas:

Never has someone butchered my name so humorously. (Not insulting you or anything, I butcher most everyone's names on here too. Just letting you know I actually smiled when I read it.)

1) Realize that if you had a debate with WLC...

2) Do an actual Debate with someone like; KR fourier, popculture, Inquire truth, thett3, J Kenyon, reformed arsonal, 16kadams, etc.

I once debated popculture. Most terrifying experience of my life. Gotta do it again sometime...
1Devilsadvocate
Posts: 1,518
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2/25/2013 3:16:28 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/23/2013 8:20:39 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 2/23/2013 8:10:57 PM, 1Devilsadvocate wrote:
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

Wrong, haughty, & frankly bigoted.

Aside from the gr8 points made by popculture, Dakotatrafficer, & Roy. I would add the following 2 ideas:

Never has someone butchered my name so humorously. (Not insulting you or anything, I butcher most everyone's names on here too. Just letting you know I actually smiled when I read it.)

LOL. Spelling has never been my strong point.:p
1) Realize that if you had a debate with WLC...

2) Do an actual Debate with someone like; KR fourier, popculture, Inquire truth, thett3, J Kenyon, reformed arsonal, 16kadams, etc.

I once debated popculture. Most terrifying experience of my life. Gotta do it again sometime...
I cannot write in English, because of the treacherous spelling. When I am reading, I only hear it and am unable to remember what the written word looks like."
"Albert Einstein

http://www.twainquotes.com... , http://thewritecorner.wordpress.com... , http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com...
natoast
Posts: 204
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2/25/2013 5:36:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/23/2013 12:56:56 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:39:11 PM, natoast wrote:
A lot of people who have only believed more or less one thing their whole lives have a hard time accepting others who believe something else. But as someone who has been through many beliefs, religious or otherwise, I can tell you that it is definitely wrong to judge someone for their beliefs, no matter how stupid it may seem.

I don't think it is wrong to judge someone for their beliefs. Their beliefs do say important things about someone, but it is more their rationale behind the belief that is important, not if they are a theist or atheist.

I actually kind of agree with you now. I had a change of heart. But really, it depends on the belief. For example, I think it's ok to assume all YEC's are horribly delusional. (or atheists, just an example) But not ok to assume all YEC's are stupid.
DakotaKrafick
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2/25/2013 5:48:59 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/25/2013 5:36:01 PM, natoast wrote:
At 2/23/2013 12:56:56 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:39:11 PM, natoast wrote:
A lot of people who have only believed more or less one thing their whole lives have a hard time accepting others who believe something else. But as someone who has been through many beliefs, religious or otherwise, I can tell you that it is definitely wrong to judge someone for their beliefs, no matter how stupid it may seem.

I don't think it is wrong to judge someone for their beliefs. Their beliefs do say important things about someone, but it is more their rationale behind the belief that is important, not if they are a theist or atheist.

I actually kind of agree with you now. I had a change of heart. But really, it depends on the belief. For example, I think it's ok to assume all YEC's are horribly delusional. (or atheists, just an example) But not ok to assume all YEC's are stupid.

I think "horribly delusional" kind of implies stupidity. Maybe more accurately you could say all YECs necessarily lack some vital information pertaining to their beliefs, but are not necessarily stupid. In that sense, we differentiate between ignorance and stupidity, which I think is important.
YYW
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2/25/2013 5:54:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/25/2013 5:48:59 PM, DakotaKrafick wrote:
At 2/25/2013 5:36:01 PM, natoast wrote:
At 2/23/2013 12:56:56 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:39:11 PM, natoast wrote:
A lot of people who have only believed more or less one thing their whole lives have a hard time accepting others who believe something else. But as someone who has been through many beliefs, religious or otherwise, I can tell you that it is definitely wrong to judge someone for their beliefs, no matter how stupid it may seem.

I don't think it is wrong to judge someone for their beliefs. Their beliefs do say important things about someone, but it is more their rationale behind the belief that is important, not if they are a theist or atheist.

I actually kind of agree with you now. I had a change of heart. But really, it depends on the belief. For example, I think it's ok to assume all YEC's are horribly delusional. (or atheists, just an example) But not ok to assume all YEC's are stupid.

I think "horribly delusional" kind of implies stupidity. Maybe more accurately you could say all YECs necessarily lack some vital information pertaining to their beliefs, but are not necessarily stupid. In that sense, we differentiate between ignorance and stupidity, which I think is important.

Ignorance is not possessing the necessary information to understand the validity of invalidity of a claim, stupidity is ignoring evidence contrary to what one believes to be true. That being the case, stupidity is the bastard child of unreconciled cognitive dissonance. Ignorance, however, is no excuse to be a Young Earth Creationist.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,730
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2/25/2013 6:31:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

Perhaps it's just wishful thinking for you to want to believe that you are more logical and rational than 90% of the population.

Strikes me as more desperate than logical.
It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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2/25/2013 6:44:36 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/22/2013 9:05:31 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:35:24 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

I expect such malarky because of your age... is that wrong?

Once again...you are a christian. I cannot take your judgement seriously.

You are making an argument for bigotry?

How is this different than falcondua\ler's argument that blacks are inferior?

You are saying that the vast majority of the population of the world, religious people, are inferior, and that is an argument?

On what basis do you conclude that you are superior to most people?
It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
sadolite
Posts: 10,006
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2/25/2013 9:36:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
It is naive and stupid to not judge people. I judge people by what they do, say, wear, personal appearance, mannerisms, the list goes on and on. To not do so is to set yourself up for failure and possible physical harm. People who say they don't judge people are full of crap. You as an individual have to prove your worth and value. Contrary to popular belief that everyone has worth and value and should be afforded it before they prove it. You have to earn another persons positive judgement of you.
Beware of the people who are in your circle but are not in your corner.

And with the stroke of a pen people 18 to 21 who own a gun became criminals and public enemy #1 having committed no crime and having said nothing. Just like the Jews in Germany during WW2. Must be a weird feeling.

When I hear people crying and whining about their first world problems I think about the universe with everything in it and people in wheelchairs and all of their problems go away.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/26/2013 12:52:02 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/25/2013 5:36:01 PM, natoast wrote:
At 2/23/2013 12:56:56 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:39:11 PM, natoast wrote:
A lot of people who have only believed more or less one thing their whole lives have a hard time accepting others who believe something else. But as someone who has been through many beliefs, religious or otherwise, I can tell you that it is definitely wrong to judge someone for their beliefs, no matter how stupid it may seem.

I don't think it is wrong to judge someone for their beliefs. Their beliefs do say important things about someone, but it is more their rationale behind the belief that is important, not if they are a theist or atheist.

I actually kind of agree with you now. I had a change of heart. But really, it depends on the belief. For example, I think it's ok to assume all YEC's are horribly delusional. (or atheists, just an example) But not ok to assume all YEC's are stupid.

Wait what is a YEC and restate that cause I am confused.
rogue
Posts: 2,325
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2/26/2013 12:53:57 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/25/2013 9:36:25 PM, sadolite wrote:
It is naive and stupid to not judge people. I judge people by what they do, say, wear, personal appearance, mannerisms, the list goes on and on. To not do so is to set yourself up for failure and possible physical harm. People who say they don't judge people are full of crap. You as an individual have to prove your worth and value. Contrary to popular belief that everyone has worth and value and should be afforded it before they prove it. You have to earn another persons positive judgement of you.

Well that's a little harsh. Shouldn't you have a positive judgement of people you don't know very well that haven't done anything bad to you? Also should you not also evaluate the validity and bias of your judgements?
THEVIRUS
Posts: 1,321
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2/26/2013 1:04:29 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/22/2013 7:47:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
It's sort of hard for me to not to make assumptions about someone if they are christian or religious. I think of it as a logic test that reveals irrational thought and wishful thinking. Opinions?

I'm just guessing, but I am pretty sure it is impossible not to based on how our brains are wired.

I think if you consider the high and low ends of the spectrums for atheists and theists you can find the ranges very wide, so the average isn't always the most common.

So does it happen? Yes. Is it the best idea? No. Is it morally wrong? I don't believe so, but that in itself is based on my own morals.

In the end, talk/message/somewhat-know the person from at least one direct or indirect confrontation (face to face or over text or message) before making assumptions.
"So you want me to go to the judge with 'unit, corps, God, country'?" - A Few Good Men

"And the hits just keep on comin'." -A Few Good Men
natoast
Posts: 204
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2/26/2013 10:53:58 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/26/2013 12:52:02 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/25/2013 5:36:01 PM, natoast wrote:
At 2/23/2013 12:56:56 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:39:11 PM, natoast wrote:
A lot of people who have only believed more or less one thing their whole lives have a hard time accepting others who believe something else. But as someone who has been through many beliefs, religious or otherwise, I can tell you that it is definitely wrong to judge someone for their beliefs, no matter how stupid it may seem.

I don't think it is wrong to judge someone for their beliefs. Their beliefs do say important things about someone, but it is more their rationale behind the belief that is important, not if they are a theist or atheist.

I actually kind of agree with you now. I had a change of heart. But really, it depends on the belief. For example, I think it's ok to assume all YEC's are horribly delusional. (or atheists, just an example) But not ok to assume all YEC's are stupid.

Wait what is a YEC and restate that cause I am confused.

A YEC is a young earth creationist, as in someone who believes the earth was created 11,000 years ago, and I think Dakota was right, I may have stated that wrong. What I mean is if someone is a YEC you can think that they really want to believe that the world was created recently, and that they will trick themselves into believing what they want to believe, or they might just not be well educated on the matter. But it's pointless to assume that they are stupid in all sectors of knowledge, because the two don't always correlate.
rogue
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2/26/2013 7:28:14 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/26/2013 10:53:58 AM, natoast wrote:
At 2/26/2013 12:52:02 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/25/2013 5:36:01 PM, natoast wrote:
At 2/23/2013 12:56:56 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:39:11 PM, natoast wrote:
A lot of people who have only believed more or less one thing their whole lives have a hard time accepting others who believe something else. But as someone who has been through many beliefs, religious or otherwise, I can tell you that it is definitely wrong to judge someone for their beliefs, no matter how stupid it may seem.

I don't think it is wrong to judge someone for their beliefs. Their beliefs do say important things about someone, but it is more their rationale behind the belief that is important, not if they are a theist or atheist.

I actually kind of agree with you now. I had a change of heart. But really, it depends on the belief. For example, I think it's ok to assume all YEC's are horribly delusional. (or atheists, just an example) But not ok to assume all YEC's are stupid.

Wait what is a YEC and restate that cause I am confused.

A YEC is a young earth creationist, as in someone who believes the earth was created 11,000 years ago, and I think Dakota was right, I may have stated that wrong. What I mean is if someone is a YEC you can think that they really want to believe that the world was created recently, and that they will trick themselves into believing what they want to believe, or they might just not be well educated on the matter. But it's pointless to assume that they are stupid in all sectors of knowledge, because the two don't always correlate.

In that case I totally agree.
sadolite
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2/26/2013 7:41:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/26/2013 12:53:57 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/25/2013 9:36:25 PM, sadolite wrote:
It is naive and stupid to not judge people. I judge people by what they do, say, wear, personal appearance, mannerisms, the list goes on and on. To not do so is to set yourself up for failure and possible physical harm. People who say they don't judge people are full of crap. You as an individual have to prove your worth and value. Contrary to popular belief that everyone has worth and value and should be afforded it before they prove it. You have to earn another persons positive judgement of you.

Well that's a little harsh. Shouldn't you have a positive judgement of people you don't know very well that haven't done anything bad to you? Also should you not also evaluate the validity and bias of your judgements?

I am indifferent to people I don't know. A 5 minute conversation is all I need to know whether the person I am talking to is worthy of any further attention beyond simple pleasantries during any possible future contact or conversation. I am not rude to people, they wont even know they have been judged. I have goals in life and yes a moral compass, If you say and do things that get in my way of achieving those goals or insult my moral compass. You are useless to me. But that is not to say that same person is exactly the type of person another person may want to know. Misery loves company.
Beware of the people who are in your circle but are not in your corner.

And with the stroke of a pen people 18 to 21 who own a gun became criminals and public enemy #1 having committed no crime and having said nothing. Just like the Jews in Germany during WW2. Must be a weird feeling.

When I hear people crying and whining about their first world problems I think about the universe with everything in it and people in wheelchairs and all of their problems go away.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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2/26/2013 7:57:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/26/2013 10:53:58 AM, natoast wrote:
At 2/26/2013 12:52:02 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/25/2013 5:36:01 PM, natoast wrote:
At 2/23/2013 12:56:56 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/22/2013 8:39:11 PM, natoast wrote:
A lot of people who have only believed more or less one thing their whole lives have a hard time accepting others who believe something else. But as someone who has been through many beliefs, religious or otherwise, I can tell you that it is definitely wrong to judge someone for their beliefs, no matter how stupid it may seem.

I don't think it is wrong to judge someone for their beliefs. Their beliefs do say important things about someone, but it is more their rationale behind the belief that is important, not if they are a theist or atheist.

I actually kind of agree with you now. I had a change of heart. But really, it depends on the belief. For example, I think it's ok to assume all YEC's are horribly delusional. (or atheists, just an example) But not ok to assume all YEC's are stupid.

Wait what is a YEC and restate that cause I am confused.

A YEC is a young earth creationist, as in someone who believes the earth was created 11,000 years ago, and I think Dakota was right, I may have stated that wrong. What I mean is if someone is a YEC you can think that they really want to believe that the world was created recently, and that they will trick themselves into believing what they want to believe, or they might just not be well educated on the matter. But it's pointless to assume that they are stupid in all sectors of knowledge, because the two don't always correlate.

Isn't it a little presumptuous to believe that scientists who are YEC's are not as well educated on the issues as some guy on a message board?? The evidence lends itself to different interpretations, and both sides think they're right. It's a matter of which presupposition you begin with, not a matter of who's more intelligent.
rogue
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2/27/2013 2:19:08 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 2/26/2013 7:41:32 PM, sadolite wrote:
At 2/26/2013 12:53:57 AM, rogue wrote:
At 2/25/2013 9:36:25 PM, sadolite wrote:
It is naive and stupid to not judge people. I judge people by what they do, say, wear, personal appearance, mannerisms, the list goes on and on. To not do so is to set yourself up for failure and possible physical harm. People who say they don't judge people are full of crap. You as an individual have to prove your worth and value. Contrary to popular belief that everyone has worth and value and should be afforded it before they prove it. You have to earn another persons positive judgement of you.

Well that's a little harsh. Shouldn't you have a positive judgement of people you don't know very well that haven't done anything bad to you? Also should you not also evaluate the validity and bias of your judgements?

I am indifferent to people I don't know. A 5 minute conversation is all I need to know whether the person I am talking to is worthy of any further attention beyond simple pleasantries during any possible future contact or conversation. I am not rude to people, they wont even know they have been judged. I have goals in life and yes a moral compass, If you say and do things that get in my way of achieving those goals or insult my moral compass. You are useless to me. But that is not to say that same person is exactly the type of person another person may want to know. Misery loves company.

Come on you are you that pretentious that you actually think you can read people that well in five minutes? That's ridiculous. There have been so many people I have met and didn't like but loved them later and people I met and liked and hated later. Sometimes people are just having a bad day and are much less friendly or happy or fun than they normally would be. Some people you realize later you can only take in doses. I just seems rather ridiculous to judge them forever after 5 minutes.
Cinco
Posts: 63
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2/27/2013 6:08:04 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
Nothing is "wrong". Every perspective has its beliefs - and its activities. The idea of some kind of "right" or "duty" to condemn might not be logical but it exists - it's very nearly universal. Society is practically built on the concept. Yet, here we are.

Everything that exists has a "right"to exist because...well...because it exists. Every moment spent "examining" things to see if they're "good" or "bad" and trying to convince others you're right is a moment that could have been spent exploring something far more interesting, that is far less "trampled by many feet" and a lot more fun. Even so, judging things and people, in the way I assume you mean, might make for a "small" life, but that's the individual's choice.

One might ask, "What's the point of debate, if not to judge and convince?" to which I can only answer for myself. I interact with others on specific topics, in hopes of them popping up with a perspective I have not yet explored, with regards to what interests me. Granted, I often "judge" whether or not one is likely to provide a "new idea" by whether or not they appear to be doing their own thinking, but I've discovered many new references to ideas from those who parrot, so I'm not particularly prejudiced except, perhaps, with regards to how "touchy" a person is. I don't think there's anything wrong with being touchy - if you're a tantrum-thrower, by trade, then you are and I'm not going to interfere with your choice unless...if you look like you're tired of throwing tantrums or appear to be using a phony tantrum just to get me to back off...that can make for some fun interaction - though I'm sometimes wrong in my assessment of such things. Even highly logical thinkers can throw some awesome not-fake tantrums when you rub up against a cherished belief they've sort of "inherited" or otherwise come by "accidentally" and without a "proper", logical examination. But they're usually more mad at themselves than at me (and quick to either examine the oversight or drop the subject) so they don't seem to hold a grudge. I don't hold a grudge. I'm more interested in what is posited than who posits it. The "who" might keep me from interacting, but it won't keep me from considering an interesting idea or being inspired by another's wording or a turn of phrase.
If your time, to you,
Is worth savin',
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone.
For the times they are a-changin'. - Bob Dylan

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