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Catholics and hypocrites

AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/15/2013 3:49:12 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/14/2013 8:59:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
Can you not reconize saints and Mary and only Jesus?

What do you mean 'not recognize saints'?

Saints are saints, whether you recognize them or not. Sure you could 'not recognize' them, but then it seems to me that you're only doing yourself a disservice by self-imposed ignorance.

Can you have a relationship with Jesus without the Pope or RCC?

I don't know. I'd tentatively say no.

Can you be saved without the Pope or the RCC?

Technically, yes. Practically, I'd say almost definitely not.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/15/2013 3:52:46 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/14/2013 12:51:52 PM, annanicole wrote:
I do.

'And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?' - St. Luke 1:43
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/15/2013 3:58:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/14/2013 12:11:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
I'm a self-contradicting Catholic dimwit, if that counts.

I'm a self-styled dim-witted papist. Let's be friends.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
logicrules
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3/15/2013 7:22:50 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 3:49:12 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/14/2013 8:59:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
Can you not reconize saints and Mary and only Jesus?

What do you mean 'not recognize saints'?

Saints are saints, whether you recognize them or not. Sure you could 'not recognize' them, but then it seems to me that you're only doing yourself a disservice by self-imposed ignorance.

Can you have a relationship with Jesus without the Pope or RCC?

I don't know. I'd tentatively say no.

Can you be saved without the Pope or the RCC?

Technically, yes. Practically, I'd say almost definitely not.

Careful Always, Whenever someone uses the phrase 'relationship with Jesus" they give away the classic US protestant Miindset. If we use this mindset in any other area it is foolish eg I read a biography of Lincoln and he is now my personal president. The theology of the evangelical is based in anti catholic bias, subjectivism and denial. This shouldn't be confused with Main stream Protestantism more rooted in Politics, but you wont find many, if any, of those on DDO.
Nur-Ab-Sal
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3/15/2013 2:11:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 3:58:10 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/14/2013 12:11:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
I'm a self-contradicting Catholic dimwit, if that counts.

I'm a self-styled dim-witted papist. Let's be friends.

And so the Knoxian Church began...
Genesis I. And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.
TheAntidoter
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3/15/2013 2:22:46 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 2:11:42 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
At 3/15/2013 3:58:10 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/14/2013 12:11:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
I'm a self-contradicting Catholic dimwit, if that counts.

I'm a self-styled dim-witted papist. Let's be friends.

And so the Knoxian Church began...

A noble beginning.
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Pennington
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3/15/2013 7:03:11 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 3:49:12 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/14/2013 8:59:32 AM, Pennington wrote:
Can you not reconize saints and Mary and only Jesus?

What do you mean 'not recognize saints'?

Saints are saints, whether you recognize them or not. Sure you could 'not recognize' them, but then it seems to me that you're only doing yourself a disservice by self-imposed ignorance.:
I know there are saints but anyone who is saved is a saint to me and I don't go to statues or say prayers for or to dead Christians. I only pray to Jesus. Is that ok?

Can you have a relationship with Jesus without the Pope or RCC?

I don't know. I'd tentatively say no.:
Your a Catholic and you dont know?

Can you be saved without the Pope or the RCC?

Technically, yes. Practically, I'd say almost definitely not.:
Either you can or not.
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/15/2013 7:10:25 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:03:11 PM, Pennington wrote:
I know there are saints but anyone who is saved is a saint to me and I don't go to statues or say prayers for or to dead Christians. I only pray to Jesus. Is that ok?

Yeah, why not, although it's pretty selfish of you not to say prayers for dead Christians.

Your a Catholic and you dont know?

I don't even know what you mean by the phrase 'relationship with Jesus'. As far as I know, that phrase is never used in the Sacred Scriptures, and to the best of my knowledge it doesn't figure prominently in the Sacred Tradition either.

Either you can or not.

...so? I answered. Technically, God can save anyone.

That having been said, I don't really think people outside of the Church have much of a hope of salvation. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
BigSky
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3/15/2013 7:16:26 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
The Church is the authority, given to the Pope by Jesus Christ. Therefore, you do answer to the Church. However, the Church isn't exactly a physical thing, while there may be scandals in the Vatican, the actual Catholic church has always been pure.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/15/2013 7:16:44 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:13:58 PM, BigSky wrote:
Hey guys, what's this all about Catholic hypocrites?

Actually, it seems that 'Catholics' and 'hypocrites' were charitably separated into two distinct groups.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
BigSky
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3/15/2013 7:33:54 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:16:44 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/15/2013 7:13:58 PM, BigSky wrote:
Hey guys, what's this all about Catholic hypocrites?

Actually, it seems that 'Catholics' and 'hypocrites' were charitably separated into two distinct groups.

My bad :/
popculturepooka
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3/15/2013 7:37:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:10:25 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/15/2013 7:03:11 PM, Pennington wrote:
I know there are saints but anyone who is saved is a saint to me and I don't go to statues or say prayers for or to dead Christians. I only pray to Jesus. Is that ok?

Yeah, why not, although it's pretty selfish of you not to say prayers for dead Christians.

Your a Catholic and you dont know?

I don't even know what you mean by the phrase 'relationship with Jesus'. As far as I know, that phrase is never used in the Sacred Scriptures, and to the best of my knowledge it doesn't figure prominently in the Sacred Tradition either.

Either you can or not.

...so? I answered. Technically, God can save anyone.

That having been said, I don't really think people outside of the Church have much of a hope of salvation. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.

Sorry to but in with a (sort of) irrelevancy but how do you feel about something like Karl Rahner's notion of "anonymous" christians?
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/15/2013 7:47:04 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:37:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Sorry to but in with a (sort of) irrelevancy but how do you feel about something like Karl Rahner's notion of "anonymous" christians?

I feel how I am obligated to feel.

Perhaps I should have written that people willingly outside the Church don't have much of a hope of salvation.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
Pennington
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3/15/2013 9:19:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:10:25 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:

Yeah, why not, although it's pretty selfish of you not to say prayers for dead Christians.:
Why? There are dead their fate has been made. Either their going to heaven or not. Are you suggesting that a saved dead person is in need for prayer? Why would they?

Your a Catholic and you dont know?

I don't even know what you mean by the phrase 'relationship with Jesus'. As far as I know, that phrase is never used in the Sacred Scriptures, and to the best of my knowledge it doesn't figure prominently in the Sacred Tradition either.:
I mean a personeel relation ship with Jesus without any need of a person or church. The scriptures are covered with having a relationship with God.

Either you can or not.

...so? I answered. Technically, God can save anyone.:
True. So therefore you do not need nothing but God.

That having been said, I don't really think people outside of the Church have much of a hope of salvation. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.:
Well that little statement contradicts, you said you can find salvation without God then post a phare that says, "outside the church there is no salvation." Point is if a person can find salvation without the church that means anyone can. That is exactly the opposite if what the RCC says and the quote you posted sayed. That is misrepersenting the real way to salvation. I is putting more importance in the church than Jesus Christ
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popculturepooka
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3/15/2013 9:59:01 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:47:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/15/2013 7:37:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Sorry to but in with a (sort of) irrelevancy but how do you feel about something like Karl Rahner's notion of "anonymous" christians?

I feel how I am obligated to feel.


How are you obligated to feel?

Perhaps I should have written that people willingly outside the Church don't have much of a hope of salvation.
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johnnyboy54
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3/15/2013 11:48:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 7:47:04 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/15/2013 7:37:07 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Sorry to but in with a (sort of) irrelevancy but how do you feel about something like Karl Rahner's notion of "anonymous" christians?

I feel how I am obligated to feel.

Perhaps I should have written that people willingly outside the Church don't have much of a hope of salvation.

Oh you.
I didn't order assholes with my whiskey.
jerry148
Posts: 39
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3/16/2013 4:33:21 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 9:19:48 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/15/2013 7:10:25 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:

Yeah, why not, although it's pretty selfish of you not to say prayers for dead Christians.:
Why? There are dead their fate has been made. Either their going to heaven or not. Are you suggesting that a saved dead person is in need for prayer? Why would they?

Let me refer you to the Apocrypha. I'm going to assume you're a Protestant. The King James Bible has 7 books removed from the "original" Bible compiled over time by the Catholic Church. Martin Luther, while never removing them himself, said they were unnecessary, but a good read nonetheless. Those seven books reference prayers for the dead, purgatory, intercession of angels, and intercession of saints in heaven (all of which are core Catholic teachings). That's why you hear Protestants constantly complain that Catholics are devil-worshipers (don't know where the hell they get that one), idol worshipers (we venerate/respect them, but only worship God), and other lovely names.

Your a Catholic and you dont know?

I don't even know what you mean by the phrase 'relationship with Jesus'. As far as I know, that phrase is never used in the Sacred Scriptures, and to the best of my knowledge it doesn't figure prominently in the Sacred Tradition either.:
I mean a personeel relation ship with Jesus without any need of a person or church. The scriptures are covered with having a relationship with God.

Of course Catholics can have a personal relationship with God. Whether the individual actually does is up to them.

Either you can or not.

...so? I answered. Technically, God can save anyone.:
True. So therefore you do not need nothing but God.

That having been said, I don't really think people outside of the Church have much of a hope of salvation. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus.:
Well that little statement contradicts, you said you can find salvation without God then post a phare that says, "outside the church there is no salvation." Point is if a person can find salvation without the church that means anyone can. That is exactly the opposite if what the RCC says and the quote you posted sayed. That is misrepersenting the real way to salvation. I is putting more importance in the church than Jesus Christ

In reference to "extra ecclesiam", I believe the Second Vatican Council reversed that teaching, in the "spirit of interfaith cooperation".
jerry148
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3/16/2013 4:37:24 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 3:58:10 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/14/2013 12:11:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
I'm a self-contradicting Catholic dimwit, if that counts.

I'm a self-styled dim-witted papist. Let's be friends.

Salve, gentlemen!
Pennington
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3/16/2013 5:51:38 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/16/2013 4:33:21 AM, jerry148 wrote:
At 3/15/2013 9:19:48 PM, Pennington wrote:
At 3/15/2013 7:10:25 PM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:

Yeah, why not, although it's pretty selfish of you not to say prayers for dead Christians.:
Why? There are dead their fate has been made. Either their going to heaven or not. Are you suggesting that a saved dead person is in need for prayer? Why would they?

Let me refer you to the Apocrypha. I'm going to assume you're a Protestant. The King James Bible has 7 books removed from the "original" Bible compiled over time by the Catholic Church. Martin Luther, while never removing them himself, said they were unnecessary, but a good read nonetheless. Those seven books reference prayers for the dead, purgatory, intercession of angels, and intercession of saints in heaven (all of which are core Catholic teachings). That's why you hear Protestants constantly complain that Catholics are devil-worshipers (don't know where the hell they get that one), idol worshipers (we venerate/respect them, but only worship God), and other lovely names.

The Apocrypha was not really in the Bible during the time of Jesus. The Jews were They didn't accept them because they didn't agree with the Old Testament. They clearly never accepted them. We know it wasn't until A.D. 382 that they were first put into a Bible. Jerome is considered to be the greatest biblical scholar in A.D. 382. The Apocrypha was not in his translation.

How does the Catholic church interpret Genesis 6? Who were the Canaanites?
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jerry148
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3/16/2013 6:16:57 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
How does the Catholic church interpret Genesis 6? Who were the Canaanites?

If by "Genesis 6" you mean Noah and the Flood, the Church approaches the story allegorically, as it does with Adam & Eve, Creation, etc.

To quote BustedHalo:

The story of Noah"s Ark, Genesis chapters 5 through 9, recounts a devastating flood that destroyed the world and all living creatures except for a just man named Noah, his family, and the pairs of living creatures that he brought on board with him before the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. Interestingly enough, there are a number of epic stories of a great flood that can be found in various cultures around the world. No doubt, the story of Noah is based on a factual event since archaeologists have found evidence of great floods that took place during biblical times. This does not mean, however that every detail of the story of Noah"s Ark is factual. We have no reason NOT to believe that a just man named Noah saved his family and many living creatures from a flood that devastated the known world at that time. However, it is hardly conceivable that a simple man like Noah could build an ark of such huge proportions and then gather two of every known living creature " one male and one female " and house them safely within it and feed them and dispose of their waste over a period of 40 days. That"s quite a zoological fete! The less-than-factual character of this story, however, in no way diminishes the truth and sacredness of its message. At times, biblical authors, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used figurative language to communicate God"s truth. It is indeed possible for something to be truthful but not necessarily factual. When Scripture says that "God is my rock," (Psalm 18:2) we are not to believe that God is literally a rock. The image, while not intended to be literal, expresses a truth about God using figurative language " like a rock, God is strong, steadfast, solid, and can be leaned on! Likewise, the story of Noah"s Ark employs a great deal of figurative language to express an absolute truth about God and our relationship with him: when we sin, it is as if we are drowning, however, God will spare us if we live justly as Noah did.

The Canaanites, if I'm correct, were descendants of Noah's son, Ham, and grandson, Canaan.
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/16/2013 7:28:23 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 9:19:48 PM, Pennington wrote:
Why? There are dead their fate has been made. Either their going to heaven or not. Are you suggesting that a saved dead person is in need for prayer? Why would they?

Someone's fate has already been made when they're alive too, but you should pray for them anyway.

I mean a personeel relation ship with Jesus without any need of a person or church. The scriptures are covered with having a relationship with God.

I've never heard of the phrase 'personal relationship with Jesus' in the Sacred Scriptures either; no clue what that means. I don't want to go all annanicole on you, but can you please try to call things by scriptural names whenever possible?

True. So therefore you do not need nothing but God.

Yes, but God ordinarily saves by means of the Church.

Well that little statement contradicts, you said you can find salvation without God

wat

then post a phare that says, "outside the church there is no salvation."

Ordinarily there is no salvation outside of the Church, although God probably has other means of distributing His grace than the ordinary means.

That means those saved outside of the Church are by far the exception, not the rule. You'd have to be invincibly ignorant, and I don't really think anyone who has a copy of the Sacred Scriptures can call themselves invincibly ignorant.

Point is if a person can find salvation without the church that means anyone can.

Can, but the vast, vast majority won't.

That is exactly the opposite if what the RCC says

False.

and the quote you posted sayed. That is misrepersenting the real way to salvation. I is putting more importance in the church than Jesus Christ

The Church can do nothing on it's own, but salvation comes through it from Jesus.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/16/2013 7:30:28 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/15/2013 9:59:01 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
How are you obligated to feel?

Parts of it have merit, but I won't hold the idea that one can explicitly deny Christ and still be Christian.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/16/2013 7:32:10 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/16/2013 5:51:38 AM, Pennington wrote:
The Apocrypha was not really in the Bible during the time of Jesus. The Jews were They didn't accept them because they didn't agree with the Old Testament. They clearly never accepted them. We know it wasn't until A.D. 382 that they were first put into a Bible. Jerome is considered to be the greatest biblical scholar in A.D. 382. The Apocrypha was not in his translation.

The Deuterocanon was, though, which is what I believe jerry148 was referring to.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/16/2013 7:43:59 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/16/2013 4:37:24 AM, jerry148 wrote:
At 3/15/2013 3:58:10 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/14/2013 12:11:28 PM, Nur-Ab-Sal wrote:
I'm a self-contradicting Catholic dimwit, if that counts.

I'm a self-styled dim-witted papist. Let's be friends.

Salve, gentlemen!

Join the club.

Good times just around the corner.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13
brian_eggleston
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3/16/2013 9:42:35 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/14/2013 8:07:30 AM, Pennington wrote:
Since I have been here I have noticed that people like to bash Catholics alot. I disagree myself with alot of decisions by the RCC but they are Christians. I refuse to believe that all Catholics are bad even.

Just because Catholics are Christians doesn't make them good people. Not all Christians are good people.
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Pennington
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3/16/2013 11:59:01 AM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/16/2013 6:16:57 AM, jerry148 wrote:
How does the Catholic church interpret Genesis 6? Who were the Canaanites?

If by "Genesis 6" you mean Noah and the Flood, the Church approaches the story allegorically, as it does with Adam & Eve, Creation, etc.

To quote BustedHalo:

The story of Noah"s Ark, Genesis chapters 5 through 9, recounts a devastating flood that destroyed the world and all living creatures except for a just man named Noah, his family, and the pairs of living creatures that he brought on board with him before the rain fell for 40 days and 40 nights. Interestingly enough, there are a number of epic stories of a great flood that can be found in various cultures around the world. No doubt, the story of Noah is based on a factual event since archaeologists have found evidence of great floods that took place during biblical times. This does not mean, however that every detail of the story of Noah"s Ark is factual. We have no reason NOT to believe that a just man named Noah saved his family and many living creatures from a flood that devastated the known world at that time. However, it is hardly conceivable that a simple man like Noah could build an ark of such huge proportions and then gather two of every known living creature " one male and one female " and house them safely within it and feed them and dispose of their waste over a period of 40 days. That"s quite a zoological fete! The less-than-factual character of this story, however, in no way diminishes the truth and sacredness of its message. At times, biblical authors, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used figurative language to communicate God"s truth. It is indeed possible for something to be truthful but not necessarily factual. When Scripture says that "God is my rock," (Psalm 18:2) we are not to believe that God is literally a rock. The image, while not intended to be literal, expresses a truth about God using figurative language " like a rock, God is strong, steadfast, solid, and can be leaned on! Likewise, the story of Noah"s Ark employs a great deal of figurative language to express an absolute truth about God and our relationship with him: when we sin, it is as if we are drowning, however, God will spare us if we live justly as Noah did.

The Canaanites, if I'm correct, were descendants of Noah's son, Ham, and grandson, Canaan.

I was more refering to Sons of God and daughters of men. Giants, Nephilim and hybrids.
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Pennington
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3/16/2013 12:06:22 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/16/2013 7:32:10 AM, AlwaysMoreThanYou wrote:
At 3/16/2013 5:51:38 AM, Pennington wrote:
The Apocrypha was not really in the Bible during the time of Jesus. The Jews were They didn't accept them because they didn't agree with the Old Testament. They clearly never accepted them. We know it wasn't until A.D. 382 that they were first put into a Bible. Jerome is considered to be the greatest biblical scholar in A.D. 382. The Apocrypha was not in his translation.

The Deuterocanon was, though, which is what I believe jerry148 was referring to.:

Why was the name changed?

"Deuterocanonical is a term coined in 1566?" Clearly it was not around in Jesus's day. The apocrypha was but it was not used in Jesus day or in Jerome's. It is a text used in seperate masoretic Judaism that has been put in Bibles.
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Pennington
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3/16/2013 12:07:10 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/16/2013 9:42:35 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 3/14/2013 8:07:30 AM, Pennington wrote:
Since I have been here I have noticed that people like to bash Catholics alot. I disagree myself with alot of decisions by the RCC but they are Christians. I refuse to believe that all Catholics are bad even.

Just because Catholics are Christians doesn't make them good people. Not all Christians are good people.:

I conclude that there is not any good people.
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AlwaysMoreThanYou
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3/16/2013 12:10:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 3/16/2013 12:06:22 PM, Pennington wrote:
Why was the name changed?
"Deuterocanonical is a term coined in 1566?" Clearly it was not around in Jesus's day.

The Deuterocanon was never Apocrypha, as it was always canonical. The name was invented to distinguish it from the Hebrew Old Testament's canon.

The apocrypha was but it was not used in Jesus day or in Jerome's. It is a text used in seperate masoretic Judaism that has been put in Bibles.

The Deuterocanon was, though. If you look at Jerome's translation, you'll find he included all the Deuterocanonical books.
'When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.' - John 16:13

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