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Materialism Refuted

Rusty
Posts: 2,109
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5/14/2013 3:39:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:01:30 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:34:28 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

I love how Christians of Medic's type like to think that materialism is the universal basis of non-theistic philosophy/belief. If only they knew how predominantly atheist) philosophers nowadays laugh at it.

If you only knew how we laughed at all the pseudo-philosophers who try to pretend they're saying something different. Like I said you can try and fancy it up and put a different wrapper on it but it boils down to the same ole same ole.

As a fellow Christian, it's disappointing how ignorant most of the stuff you spout off is. I'm fairly certain that almost no respected member on this site takes you seriously. Whether it's the dismissive hand-waving when confronted with people who actually know a bit about philosophy, the bullsh!t rationalizations for why people disagree you fueled by the ol' conservative Christian persecution complex, or the intellectual dishonesty that goes hand-in-hand with being a part of the Ray Comfort/Ken Ham-style Creationist subculture, it's just too much.

With all due respect.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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5/14/2013 3:48:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:39:33 PM, Rusty wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:01:30 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:34:28 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

I love how Christians of Medic's type like to think that materialism is the universal basis of non-theistic philosophy/belief. If only they knew how predominantly atheist) philosophers nowadays laugh at it.

If you only knew how we laughed at all the pseudo-philosophers who try to pretend they're saying something different. Like I said you can try and fancy it up and put a different wrapper on it but it boils down to the same ole same ole.

As a fellow Christian, it's disappointing how ignorant most of the stuff you spout off is. I'm fairly certain that almost no respected member on this site takes you seriously. Whether it's the dismissive hand-waving when confronted with people who actually know a bit about philosophy, the bullsh!t rationalizations for why people disagree you fueled by the ol' conservative Christian persecution complex, or the intellectual dishonesty that goes hand-in-hand with being a part of the Ray Comfort/Ken Ham-style Creationist subculture, it's just too much.

With all due respect.

I could not have said it better myself.
Radar
Posts: 424
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5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/14/2013 3:59:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:12:43 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:01:30 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:34:28 PM, Noumena wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

I love how Christians of Medic's type like to think that materialism is the universal basis of non-theistic philosophy/belief. If only they knew how predominantly atheist) philosophers nowadays laugh at it.

If you only knew how we laughed at all the pseudo-philosophers who try to pretend they're saying something different. Like I said you can try and fancy it up and put a different wrapper on it but it boils down to the same ole same ole.

Are you planning on making an actual argument?

If you can refute the one already posted. I'm seeing a lot of ad homs but not much to refute what he said.
Radar
Posts: 424
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5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.
StevenDixon
Posts: 178
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5/14/2013 4:18:43 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

No, pretty sure it's just a gap.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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5/14/2013 4:26:18 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

The initial inflating point of the Big Bang.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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5/14/2013 4:27:00 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
There's a better route I think and that's various arguments from reason and consciousness that V.Repert and A.Plantinga have put forth, they devastate materialism and show how it's simply self-refuting. Most materialist philosophers nowadays are being forced more and more into a corner by themselves where they all agree with one another and protect their intellectual blunders with strange and various principles of meaning.. all of which are either highly restrictive or ultimately nihilistic.

I can debate materialism in a few weeks if anyone likes.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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5/14/2013 4:31:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:27:00 PM, Apeiron wrote:
There's a better route I think and that's various arguments from reason and consciousness that V.Repert and A.Plantinga have put forth, they devastate materialism and show how it's simply self-refuting. Most materialist philosophers nowadays are being forced more and more into a corner by themselves where they all agree with one another and protect their intellectual blunders with strange and various principles of meaning.. all of which are either highly restrictive or ultimately nihilistic.

I can debate materialism in a few weeks if anyone likes.

Who would want to debate in favor of materialism? Lol Most Atheists and Agnostics I know are not materialists.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/14/2013 4:41:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:26:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

The initial inflating point of the Big Bang.

hmmm...obviously Riddle is on to something here.
stubs
Posts: 1,888
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5/14/2013 4:44:13 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:26:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

The initial inflating point of the Big Bang.

If you have time, could you explain this in greater detail?
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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5/14/2013 4:47:09 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:44:13 PM, stubs wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:26:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

The initial inflating point of the Big Bang.

If you have time, could you explain this in greater detail?

We can PM back and forth, I do not want to have to fight off a pack of theists all at once here.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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5/14/2013 4:52:29 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:31:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:27:00 PM, Apeiron wrote:
There's a better route I think and that's various arguments from reason and consciousness that V.Repert and A.Plantinga have put forth, they devastate materialism and show how it's simply self-refuting. Most materialist philosophers nowadays are being forced more and more into a corner by themselves where they all agree with one another and protect their intellectual blunders with strange and various principles of meaning.. all of which are either highly restrictive or ultimately nihilistic.

I can debate materialism in a few weeks if anyone likes.

Who would want to debate in favor of materialism? Lol Most Atheists and Agnostics I know are not materialists.

Right they don't consider themselves to be but I that's more tongue and cheek than anything I think, atheism, if it doesn't imply materialism, then it's some other form of intellectual nihilism.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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5/14/2013 4:53:37 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
And i mean that for the atheists, the actual atheists who believe there is no God. Agnostics are like whatever...
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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5/14/2013 5:07:06 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:52:29 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:31:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:27:00 PM, Apeiron wrote:
There's a better route I think and that's various arguments from reason and consciousness that V.Repert and A.Plantinga have put forth, they devastate materialism and show how it's simply self-refuting. Most materialist philosophers nowadays are being forced more and more into a corner by themselves where they all agree with one another and protect their intellectual blunders with strange and various principles of meaning.. all of which are either highly restrictive or ultimately nihilistic.

I can debate materialism in a few weeks if anyone likes.

Who would want to debate in favor of materialism? Lol Most Atheists and Agnostics I know are not materialists.

Right they don't consider themselves to be but I that's more tongue and cheek than anything I think, atheism, if it doesn't imply materialism, then it's some other form of intellectual nihilism.

It is not tongue and cheek. There is a real difference between a materialist, and someone who is not a materialist. Regardless, I agree with you that at least some form of nihilism is implied by Atheism. There is not going to be some ultimate cosmic meaning, that is for sure..
Radar
Posts: 424
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5/14/2013 5:09:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:26:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

The initial inflating point of the Big Bang.

Great answer your "just because." Really informative. It explains everything.

(You so realize this is sarcasm, don't you?)
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,473
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5/14/2013 5:11:52 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 5:09:05 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:26:18 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

The initial inflating point of the Big Bang.

Great answer your "just because." Really informative. It explains everything.

(You so realize this is sarcasm, don't you?)

What am I a science guru? If you want to know about the forces of nature that lead to order go pick up a science text book...
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/14/2013 8:05:47 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

The atheist approach is more like make-no-assumptions-in-the-gaps.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/14/2013 8:07:07 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

They often arise from other processes. These processes are often not irreducibly complex.
Dan4reason
Posts: 1,168
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5/14/2013 8:08:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 4:52:29 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:31:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:27:00 PM, Apeiron wrote:
There's a better route I think and that's various arguments from reason and consciousness that V.Repert and A.Plantinga have put forth, they devastate materialism and show how it's simply self-refuting. Most materialist philosophers nowadays are being forced more and more into a corner by themselves where they all agree with one another and protect their intellectual blunders with strange and various principles of meaning.. all of which are either highly restrictive or ultimately nihilistic.

I can debate materialism in a few weeks if anyone likes.

Who would want to debate in favor of materialism? Lol Most Atheists and Agnostics I know are not materialists.

Right they don't consider themselves to be but I that's more tongue and cheek than anything I think, atheism, if it doesn't imply materialism, then it's some other form of intellectual nihilism.

What do you mean by intellectual nihilism?
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/14/2013 9:08:05 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 8:07:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

They often arise from other processes. These processes are often not irreducibly complex.

Ok, well where do those processes come from??
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/14/2013 9:12:42 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 9:08:05 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 8:07:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

They often arise from other processes. These processes are often not irreducibly complex.

Ok, well where do those processes come from??

Why do they need to?

And if processes need to, why doesn't the supernatural?
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/14/2013 9:23:51 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 9:12:42 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 9:08:05 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 8:07:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

They often arise from other processes. These processes are often not irreducibly complex.

Ok, well where do those processes come from??

Why do they need to?

And if processes need to, why doesn't the supernatural?

Why do they need to what??
bladerunner060
Posts: 7,126
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5/14/2013 9:37:21 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 9:23:51 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 9:12:42 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 9:08:05 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 8:07:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

They often arise from other processes. These processes are often not irreducibly complex.

Ok, well where do those processes come from??

Why do they need to?

And if processes need to, why doesn't the supernatural?

Why do they need to what??

Come from somewhere.
Assistant moderator to airmax1227. PM me with any questions or concerns!
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/14/2013 9:52:32 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 1:45:59 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 1:15:18 PM, drafterman wrote:
At 5/14/2013 12:21:46 PM, medic0506 wrote:

Materialism is the foundation for atheism, evolution, naturalism, etc.

No it isn't.

You can fancy it up a little but it all boils down to being the same thing.

No it doesn't. Except for maybe materialism/naturalism, you can be any one of those without being the others.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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5/14/2013 9:53:16 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 9:37:21 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 9:23:51 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 9:12:42 PM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 9:08:05 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 8:07:07 PM, Dan4reason wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:22:33 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:19:51 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:10:23 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 3:54:49 PM, Radar wrote:
At 5/14/2013 2:30:11 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
Also strict materialism is a dead philosophy, as quantum mechanics debunks it. This says nothing about physicalism as a whole however.

Right. God-in-the-gaps was replaced by chance-in-the-gaps.

Or, if you prefer, the belief that matter has the innate ability to self-organize; i.e., pantheism.

Gravity can organize matter. Natural chemistry sets can conjure up a self-replicating molecule. Clouds can produce snow flakes. It is not matter organizing itself, but forces of nature acting on matter lol Your understanding of basic science is lacking.

Where do those processes that lead to order come from??

They often arise from other processes. These processes are often not irreducibly complex.

Ok, well where do those processes come from??

Why do they need to?

And if processes need to, why doesn't the supernatural?

Why do they need to what??

Come from somewhere.

How do you explain their existence??
drafterman
Posts: 18,870
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5/14/2013 9:53:48 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 1:47:56 PM, medic0506 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 1:27:58 PM, drafterman wrote:
Also, unanswered questions don't refute anything.

If your methodology leaves you unable to address the questions that are unanswered, yes it does.

Since no methodology is able to address all unanswered questions, then all methodologies are refuted.

You're a goddamned genius.
Apeiron
Posts: 2,446
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5/14/2013 10:04:30 PM
Posted: 7 years ago
At 5/14/2013 5:07:06 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:52:29 PM, Apeiron wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:31:30 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
At 5/14/2013 4:27:00 PM, Apeiron wrote:
There's a better route I think and that's various arguments from reason and consciousness that V.Repert and A.Plantinga have put forth, they devastate materialism and show how it's simply self-refuting. Most materialist philosophers nowadays are being forced more and more into a corner by themselves where they all agree with one another and protect their intellectual blunders with strange and various principles of meaning.. all of which are either highly restrictive or ultimately nihilistic.

I can debate materialism in a few weeks if anyone likes.

Who would want to debate in favor of materialism? Lol Most Atheists and Agnostics I know are not materialists.

Right they don't consider themselves to be but I that's more tongue and cheek than anything I think, atheism, if it doesn't imply materialism, then it's some other form of intellectual nihilism.

It is not tongue and cheek. There is a real difference between a materialist, and someone who is not a materialist. Regardless, I agree with you that at least some form of nihilism is implied by Atheism. There is not going to be some ultimate cosmic meaning, that is for sure..

What I mean by tongue and cheeking it is atheists often resort to arguments materialists use in order to rebut a pressing theist.. but then when later asked they reject materialism wholesale. It's this sort of pattern of dodge that allows an atheist to stay comfortable, it's like an evasive cancer of BS. I don't know why anyone's a willing atheist.

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