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More powerful than God?

Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 7:09:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:04:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

http://www.newadvent.org...

Ah, yes, well, just as an example the documents that supposedly connect St. Linus to St. Peter were written 100 yeas after the fact. What you have in the Catholic Church justifying their power structure and that structure has a vested interest in making that lineage seem unbroken. Show me something that is not produced and promulgated by the Catholic church that supports this list in toto or it has little or no credibility.

Show me contemporary works on Alexander the Great.

Why would Jews or pagans be documenting the Catholic Church. It like asking why facebook isn't document DDO. There is no self interest there to do so. Most historical documents are internal sources - those are the facts of life.
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 7:09:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:06:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:01:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
So we're just advanced dogs. Good to know how you feel about how your loving God feels about you.

Actually that would be your random evolution theory viewpoint.

Uh, no. There is no conscious volition behind evolutionary processes. It's apparent you do not really understand evolution.

No, I do. I never claimed any conscious volition behind your view of evolution. It is random because it requires random mutations to create improvements/adaptations that will get passed on.

I love when atheists act intentionally obtuse - it completely discredits them to serious readers.

I hate it when theists try to bulljive people with answers that make zero sense.

You understood that the analogy was just a useful analogy and then proceeded to say that God views us like dogs, when it had nothing to do with the analogy being made. Intentionally obtuse.

Second, the very concept of 'omnipotence' is incoherent. Questions like 'Can God create a rock so big that he could not lift it?' demonstrate this. An omnipotent being should be able to do anything yet he is limited by his own omnipotence.

Omnipotence is the ability to do whatsoever he desires. All of nature operates according to his will.

Yet his is limited by that omnipotence thus is not omnipotent after all. It's an incoherent concept. You did not really demonstrate otherwise here.

Everything that exists is an act of pure will on the part of God. Matter being finite (by design) is always inferior to the spiritual.

And there it is. Your are implicitly asserting the existence of a realm that you cannot in any way demonstrate or evidence. Once you do that you've left the realm of reality and stepped into baseless assertion. Show me some actual evidence of this 'spirit' you claim exists and you might have an argument.

Hey you started the thread discussing God and giving the impression you were referring to the Christian understanding of God. While there are logical arguments that can be used, I don't have to. We are talking about the Christian God who is defined as Spirit in nature.

All of time and space is in the present to God. Something greater than the source is logically impossible. Something more perfect that perfect makes no sense.

You say we can't understand God yet you claim to know all about him. That's self-contradictory and, in my opinion, just your own desires expressed as fact.

We understand what he has revealed of himself to us.

Now to give a snide answer to a non-serious question. Jesus was God, he fell numerous times under the weight of the cross. If a large piece of wood is too heavy then there would be rocks he could not lift. And yet God can do anything by his will alone. So there were rocks that he both simultaneously could and could not lift.

Sophistry. Can and cannot are mutually exclusive. In your story your God chose to limit himself to what a human body was capable of and not utilize his power. That does not demonstrate that he could have easily carried the cross and not died from being tormented. Totally different circumstances.

No duh. It is a dumb question to begin with.

It wasn't really a question, if you'd read the entire paragraph. I used that particular question to express the incoherence of the concept of omnipotence. Apparently that went over your head as well.

And it was once again you viewing God as a being instead of being itself as a piece of existence instead of existence itself, the infinite compared to the finite. Heck we don't even know what matter and energy are - we know properties, but not what they are.

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

Your traditions aren't evidence any more than modern day Odinists' are. Your god and Odin are exactly equal in the amount of real evidence for their existence.

Except that mine has a specific time and place that he has interacted with humanity instead of vague stories.

But I'll let that go. Care to answer the question? How exactly did this non-being reveal parts of itself to you?

He revealed himself through the prophets and Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. He left men with his authority, who wrote down his words and carried on the Traditions they learned. This has passed from generation to generation through to the present day.

So, what you really meant to say was that a lot of men wrote down stuff that they claim was revealed to them by your God, all of that got edited, redacted, and re-organized by the Councils of Nicea, then interpreted at the behest of a king and redone a number of times until he was satisfied with it and that constitutes divine revelation to you. Got it.

Funny that wasn't even part of the council of Nicea. My claim is that these men wrote divinely inspired works. There were other works written that while good where not divinely inspired and there were yet other groups that attempted to pervert the message and wrote distorted false works.

There were also persecutions and dangers of assembly. Eventually the persecutions ended and the process of determining which works were authentically inspired began. This was not completed until about 60 years afte

That doesn't change the fact it was all done by men, including King James.

Lol. Catholic.

Which version of the Bible to you read?

You're taking the word of other men and deciding it's all 'inspired' by your deity and claiming its divine revelation.

Well we are dealing with a claim of divinity. Unless you propose that the divine cannot reveal Himself...

I don't have to propose anything. You've claimed it did reveal itself to you but all you have are the words of other men, words that cannot be substantiated in large part.

If you did that with any other subject you'd be called foolish. Amazing how religion can switch off critical thinking.

Lol... It is perfectly logical. You may not accept it, but that does not make it illogical.

You really need to look at the term 'logical' and 'critical thinking'.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 7:10:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:07:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:02:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:58:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:07 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

Well yeah it is a claim. We can also show all the Popes between then and now which makes it a substantiated claim.

You can't substantiate the supposed divine nature of the one who supposedly gave them the keys to the kingdom or his purported father so a list of leaders of a religion have no meaning outside the power structure of that church.

True, but I does show a continuous power structure. If the message is true then the power structure if valid. There is evidence of the divine nature.

Please provide such evidence. Assuming, of course, you mean evidence and not just someone's words written on a page, words that have no facts to support them.

If the conclusions from that evidence is true, I am right, if not I am wrong.

Again, what evidence?

Oh there are many...

Just one for now

http://www.youtube.com...
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 7:13:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:09:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:04:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

http://www.newadvent.org...

Ah, yes, well, just as an example the documents that supposedly connect St. Linus to St. Peter were written 100 yeas after the fact. What you have in the Catholic Church justifying their power structure and that structure has a vested interest in making that lineage seem unbroken. Show me something that is not produced and promulgated by the Catholic church that supports this list in toto or it has little or no credibility.

Show me contemporary works on Alexander the Great.

Why would Jews or pagans be documenting the Catholic Church. It like asking why facebook isn't document DDO. There is no self interest there to do so. Most historical documents are internal sources - those are the facts of life.

Please don't try that junk. If there were truly miraculous events occurring someone would have made a record of it besides the proponents of the religion. If all the dead of a city left their graves and visited their relatives it would be something that would be recorded by someone. See, miracles that affect an entire city or more aren't just seen by the faithful. Same goes for leaders of large religions. They affect more than just their flock. Look at the popes of recent decades. Your assertion is patently fallacious.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 7:21:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:13:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:09:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:04:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

http://www.newadvent.org...

Ah, yes, well, just as an example the documents that supposedly connect St. Linus to St. Peter were written 100 yeas after the fact. What you have in the Catholic Church justifying their power structure and that structure has a vested interest in making that lineage seem unbroken. Show me something that is not produced and promulgated by the Catholic church that supports this list in toto or it has little or no credibility.

Show me contemporary works on Alexander the Great.

Why would Jews or pagans be documenting the Catholic Church. It like asking why facebook isn't document DDO. There is no self interest there to do so. Most historical documents are internal sources - those are the facts of life.

Please don't try that junk. If there were truly miraculous events occurring someone would have made a record of it besides the proponents of the religion. If all the dead of a city left their graves and visited their relatives it would be something that would be recorded by someone. See, miracles that affect an entire city or more aren't just seen by the faithful. Same goes for leaders of large religions. They affect more than just their flock. Look at the popes of recent decades. Your assertion is patently fallacious.

Lol, now we're done. When you stop actually addressing what I post, I lose interest.

Large miracle seen by believers and non-believers alike - Fatima.
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 7:21:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:10:28 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:07:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:02:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:58:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:07 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

Well yeah it is a claim. We can also show all the Popes between then and now which makes it a substantiated claim.

You can't substantiate the supposed divine nature of the one who supposedly gave them the keys to the kingdom or his purported father so a list of leaders of a religion have no meaning outside the power structure of that church.

True, but I does show a continuous power structure. If the message is true then the power structure if valid. There is evidence of the divine nature.

Please provide such evidence. Assuming, of course, you mean evidence and not just someone's words written on a page, words that have no facts to support them.

If the conclusions from that evidence is true, I am right, if not I am wrong.

Again, what evidence?

Oh there are many...

Just one for now

http://www.youtube.com...

Just an apologist trying to equate biblical, religious material with contemporary secular writing of the time often by quoting nameless scholars and quote mining others. Still no facts, just assertions.
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 7:23:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:21:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:13:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:09:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:04:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

http://www.newadvent.org...

Ah, yes, well, just as an example the documents that supposedly connect St. Linus to St. Peter were written 100 yeas after the fact. What you have in the Catholic Church justifying their power structure and that structure has a vested interest in making that lineage seem unbroken. Show me something that is not produced and promulgated by the Catholic church that supports this list in toto or it has little or no credibility.

Show me contemporary works on Alexander the Great.

Why would Jews or pagans be documenting the Catholic Church. It like asking why facebook isn't document DDO. There is no self interest there to do so. Most historical documents are internal sources - those are the facts of life.

Please don't try that junk. If there were truly miraculous events occurring someone would have made a record of it besides the proponents of the religion. If all the dead of a city left their graves and visited their relatives it would be something that would be recorded by someone. See, miracles that affect an entire city or more aren't just seen by the faithful. Same goes for leaders of large religions. They affect more than just their flock. Look at the popes of recent decades. Your assertion is patently fallacious.

Lol, now we're done. When you stop actually addressing what I post, I lose interest.

Large miracle seen by believers and non-believers alike - Fatima.

An event reported differently by many of the observers, among other things. Amazing how the incidence of miracles like that has dropped to zero with the advent of smartphones and digital cameras, isn't it?
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 7:23:42 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:21:55 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:10:28 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:07:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:02:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:58:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:07 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

Well yeah it is a claim. We can also show all the Popes between then and now which makes it a substantiated claim.

You can't substantiate the supposed divine nature of the one who supposedly gave them the keys to the kingdom or his purported father so a list of leaders of a religion have no meaning outside the power structure of that church.

True, but I does show a continuous power structure. If the message is true then the power structure if valid. There is evidence of the divine nature.

Please provide such evidence. Assuming, of course, you mean evidence and not just someone's words written on a page, words that have no facts to support them.

If the conclusions from that evidence is true, I am right, if not I am wrong.

Again, what evidence?

Oh there are many...

Just one for now

http://www.youtube.com...

Just an apologist trying to equate biblical, religious material with contemporary secular writing of the time often by quoting nameless scholars and quote mining others. Still no facts, just assertions.

Well when you create a time machine and are able to produce any facts about history please let me know.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:23:26 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:21:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:13:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:09:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:04:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

http://www.newadvent.org...

Ah, yes, well, just as an example the documents that supposedly connect St. Linus to St. Peter were written 100 yeas after the fact. What you have in the Catholic Church justifying their power structure and that structure has a vested interest in making that lineage seem unbroken. Show me something that is not produced and promulgated by the Catholic church that supports this list in toto or it has little or no credibility.

Show me contemporary works on Alexander the Great.

Why would Jews or pagans be documenting the Catholic Church. It like asking why facebook isn't document DDO. There is no self interest there to do so. Most historical documents are internal sources - those are the facts of life.

Please don't try that junk. If there were truly miraculous events occurring someone would have made a record of it besides the proponents of the religion. If all the dead of a city left their graves and visited their relatives it would be something that would be recorded by someone. See, miracles that affect an entire city or more aren't just seen by the faithful. Same goes for leaders of large religions. They affect more than just their flock. Look at the popes of recent decades. Your assertion is patently fallacious.

Lol, now we're done. When you stop actually addressing what I post, I lose interest.

Large miracle seen by believers and non-believers alike - Fatima.

An event reported differently by many of the observers, among other things. Amazing how the incidence of miracles like that has dropped to zero with the advent of smartphones and digital cameras, isn't it?

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.
Otokage
Posts: 2,464
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5/12/2016 7:29:30 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

This is the problem with most atheists. God is not a being. God is being itself.

And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

That's a contradiction. "Omnipotent beings cannot get more powerful than omnipotent" The sentence just doesn't make sense. Omnipotent beings ALWAYS can, they NEVER "cannot". If you find this troublesome to comprehend, then you are finding God troublesome to comprehend too.
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 7:33:43 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:23:26 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:21:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:13:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:09:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:04:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

http://www.newadvent.org...

Ah, yes, well, just as an example the documents that supposedly connect St. Linus to St. Peter were written 100 yeas after the fact. What you have in the Catholic Church justifying their power structure and that structure has a vested interest in making that lineage seem unbroken. Show me something that is not produced and promulgated by the Catholic church that supports this list in toto or it has little or no credibility.

Show me contemporary works on Alexander the Great.

Why would Jews or pagans be documenting the Catholic Church. It like asking why facebook isn't document DDO. There is no self interest there to do so. Most historical documents are internal sources - those are the facts of life.

Please don't try that junk. If there were truly miraculous events occurring someone would have made a record of it besides the proponents of the religion. If all the dead of a city left their graves and visited their relatives it would be something that would be recorded by someone. See, miracles that affect an entire city or more aren't just seen by the faithful. Same goes for leaders of large religions. They affect more than just their flock. Look at the popes of recent decades. Your assertion is patently fallacious.

Lol, now we're done. When you stop actually addressing what I post, I lose interest.

Large miracle seen by believers and non-believers alike - Fatima.

An event reported differently by many of the observers, among other things. Amazing how the incidence of miracles like that has dropped to zero with the advent of smartphones and digital cameras, isn't it?

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.

Still doesn't explain why there are no such miracles reported in the time of so many devices that could record and verify them, does it? Nice dodge, by the way.
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 7:39:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:23:42 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:21:55 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:10:28 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:07:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:02:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:58:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:07 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

Well yeah it is a claim. We can also show all the Popes between then and now which makes it a substantiated claim.

You can't substantiate the supposed divine nature of the one who supposedly gave them the keys to the kingdom or his purported father so a list of leaders of a religion have no meaning outside the power structure of that church.

True, but I does show a continuous power structure. If the message is true then the power structure if valid. There is evidence of the divine nature.

Please provide such evidence. Assuming, of course, you mean evidence and not just someone's words written on a page, words that have no facts to support them.

If the conclusions from that evidence is true, I am right, if not I am wrong.

Again, what evidence?

Oh there are many...

Just one for now

http://www.youtube.com...

Just an apologist trying to equate biblical, religious material with contemporary secular writing of the time often by quoting nameless scholars and quote mining others. Still no facts, just assertions.

Well when you create a time machine and are able to produce any facts about history please let me know.

Lots of facts available, like the fact that there is no writing about a miracle worker in that day and time except religious writing. There are one or two sentences about an itinerant Jewish teacher causing trouble, that's it. The fact is that there is no record of any census being conducted like the one described in the gospels. The fact is that Jesus was NOT of the line of David as was prophesied because Joseph was NOT his father. His only human lineage was through Mary and there's no mention of her family. So many things where your own holy writings bite themselves in the back.

But you're convinced this is all divinely inspired. Pity. You're an intelligent person and you're wasting it justifying things that you would never try to if it were not part of your religion.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 7:51:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:39:27 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:23:42 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:21:55 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:10:28 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:07:00 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:02:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:58:53 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:07 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

Well yeah it is a claim. We can also show all the Popes between then and now which makes it a substantiated claim.

You can't substantiate the supposed divine nature of the one who supposedly gave them the keys to the kingdom or his purported father so a list of leaders of a religion have no meaning outside the power structure of that church.

True, but I does show a continuous power structure. If the message is true then the power structure if valid. There is evidence of the divine nature.

Please provide such evidence. Assuming, of course, you mean evidence and not just someone's words written on a page, words that have no facts to support them.

If the conclusions from that evidence is true, I am right, if not I am wrong.

Again, what evidence?

Oh there are many...

Just one for now

http://www.youtube.com...

Just an apologist trying to equate biblical, religious material with contemporary secular writing of the time often by quoting nameless scholars and quote mining others. Still no facts, just assertions.

Well when you create a time machine and are able to produce any facts about history please let me know.

Lots of facts available, like the fact that there is no writing about a miracle worker in that day and time except religious writing. There are one or two sentences about an itinerant Jewish teacher causing trouble, that's it. The fact is that there is no record of any census being conducted like the one described in the gospels. The fact is that Jesus was NOT of the line of David as was prophesied because Joseph was NOT his father. His only human lineage was through Mary and there's no mention of her family. So many things where your own holy writings bite themselves in the back.

Okay last one, then I need to do some more work.

The conclusion of early Church fathers was that the Gospel of Luke actually gave Mary's lineage because Heli was the name ascribe to Mary's father.

http://www.newadvent.org...

But you're convinced this is all divinely inspired. Pity. You're an intelligent person and you're wasting it justifying things that you would never try to if it were not part of your religion.

I only hope one day you come to the same conclusion.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 7:55:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:33:43 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.

Still doesn't explain why there are no such miracles reported in the time of so many devices that could record and verify them, does it? Nice dodge, by the way.

Oh you just want something simple like a photo?

Very well here is an unreproducible photo with all the necessary forensic evidence:

http://www.debate.org...
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/12/2016 8:02:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 2:56:38 AM, uncung wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

It is not possible at all since the God is the most powerful one.

Oh right so we found something a supposedly omnipotent God cant do. Draw your own conclusions from that if you dare theists.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,917
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5/12/2016 8:06:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:51:50 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:39:27 PM, dhardage wrote:


The conclusion of early Church fathers was that the Gospel of Luke actually gave Mary's lineage because Heli was the name ascribe to Mary's father.

Which just goes to show how little they knew.

Typical Apostate thinking.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/12/2016 8:07:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 4:57:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:23:37 PM, user13579 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

"One is omnipotent"
"There is something one cannot do"

does not compute

You cannot make something larger than infinite.

So God is restricted by infinity? Thought God would be too powerful to be restricted.
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 8:14:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:55:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:33:43 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.

Still doesn't explain why there are no such miracles reported in the time of so many devices that could record and verify them, does it? Nice dodge, by the way.

Oh you just want something simple like a photo?

Very well here is an unreproducible photo with all the necessary forensic evidence:

http://www.debate.org...

Shroud of Turin., Tested, shown to be Medieval in manufacture. Meaningless outside your church.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 8:14:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:06:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:51:50 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:39:27 PM, dhardage wrote:


The conclusion of early Church fathers was that the Gospel of Luke actually gave Mary's lineage because Heli was the name ascribe to Mary's father.

Which just goes to show how little they knew.

Typical Apostate thinking.

Unlike the watchtower that changes it teachings regularly because they have no divine inspiration.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 8:15:19 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:07:28 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:57:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:23:37 PM, user13579 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

"One is omnipotent"
"There is something one cannot do"

does not compute

You cannot make something larger than infinite.

So God is restricted by infinity? Thought God would be too powerful to be restricted.

lol.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 8:18:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:14:03 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:55:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:33:43 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.

Still doesn't explain why there are no such miracles reported in the time of so many devices that could record and verify them, does it? Nice dodge, by the way.

Oh you just want something simple like a photo?

Very well here is an unreproducible photo with all the necessary forensic evidence:

http://www.debate.org...

Shroud of Turin., Tested, shown to be Medieval in manufacture. Meaningless outside your church.

1. The data has never been made public for review
2. The Chi-square data falls outside bounds for it to be considered a homogeneous piece that was tested.
3. Sample has shown gum and dissimilar materials present in test sample.
4. Nobody can even come close to replicating it.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/12/2016 8:18:38 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 6:40:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:07:23 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 5:54:11 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:57:00 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:21:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:31:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:15:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

This is the problem with most atheists. God is not a being. God is being itself.

And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

Two things. If God is not a being, why does it speak and act like one in holy Christian writ?

Because we understand God based on our experience. We cannot actually comprehend life in eternity, or the sheer being of God. Our understanding of God is limited by our personal limitations. It is like my dog. He understood us to be some form of super-dog. He interacted and viewed us according to his frame of reference. Likewise our understanding of God is limited by our fallen nature.

So we're just advanced dogs. Good to know how you feel about how your loving God feels about you.

Actually that would be your random evolution theory viewpoint.

Uh, no. There is no conscious volition behind evolutionary processes. It's apparent you do not really understand evolution.

No, I do. I never claimed any conscious volition behind your view of evolution. It is random because it requires random mutations to create improvements/adaptations that will get passed on.

I love when atheists act intentionally obtuse - it completely discredits them to serious readers.

I hate it when theists try to bulljive people with answers that make zero sense.

You understood that the analogy was just a useful analogy and then proceeded to say that God views us like dogs, when it had nothing to do with the analogy being made. Intentionally obtuse.

Second, the very concept of 'omnipotence' is incoherent. Questions like 'Can God create a rock so big that he could not lift it?' demonstrate this. An omnipotent being should be able to do anything yet he is limited by his own omnipotence.

Omnipotence is the ability to do whatsoever he desires. All of nature operates according to his will.

Yet his is limited by that omnipotence thus is not omnipotent after all. It's an incoherent concept. You did not really demonstrate otherwise here.

Everything that exists is an act of pure will on the part of God. Matter being finite (by design) is always inferior to the spiritual.

And there it is. Your are implicitly asserting the existence of a realm that you cannot in any way demonstrate or evidence. Once you do that you've left the realm of reality and stepped into baseless assertion. Show me some actual evidence of this 'spirit' you claim exists and you might have an argument.

Hey you started the thread discussing God and giving the impression you were referring to the Christian understanding of God. While there are logical arguments that can be used, I don't have to. We are talking about the Christian God who is defined as Spirit in nature.

All of time and space is in the present to God. Something greater than the source is logically impossible. Something more perfect that perfect makes no sense.

You say we can't understand God yet you claim to know all about him. That's self-contradictory and, in my opinion, just your own desires expressed as fact.

We understand what he has revealed of himself to us.

Now to give a snide answer to a non-serious question. Jesus was God, he fell numerous times under the weight of the cross. If a large piece of wood is too heavy then there would be rocks he could not lift. And yet God can do anything by his will alone. So there were rocks that he both simultaneously could and could not lift.

Sophistry. Can and cannot are mutually exclusive. In your story your God chose to limit himself to what a human body was capable of and not utilize his power. That does not demonstrate that he could have easily carried the cross and not died from being tormented. Totally different circumstances.

No duh. It is a dumb question to begin with.

It wasn't really a question, if you'd read the entire paragraph. I used that particular question to express the incoherence of the concept of omnipotence. Apparently that went over your head as well.

And it was once again you viewing God as a being instead of being itself as a piece of existence instead of existence itself, the infinite compared to the finite. Heck we don't even know what matter and energy are - we know properties, but not what they are.

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

Your traditions aren't evidence any more than modern day Odinists' are. Your god and Odin are exactly equal in the amount of real evidence for their existence.

Except that mine has a specific time and place that he has interacted with humanity instead of vague stories.

But I'll let that go. Care to answer the question? How exactly did this non-being reveal parts of itself to you?

He revealed himself through the prophets and Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. He left men with his authority, who wrote down his words and carried on the Traditions they learned. This has passed from generation to generation through to the present day.

Oh so it was an indirect revelation? Sort of like the way I have an indirect conversation with the Queen every Xmas?
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 8:20:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:18:38 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:40:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:21 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:07:23 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 5:54:11 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:57:00 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:21:07 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:31:45 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 6:15:23 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

This is the problem with most atheists. God is not a being. God is being itself.

And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

Two things. If God is not a being, why does it speak and act like one in holy Christian writ?

Because we understand God based on our experience. We cannot actually comprehend life in eternity, or the sheer being of God. Our understanding of God is limited by our personal limitations. It is like my dog. He understood us to be some form of super-dog. He interacted and viewed us according to his frame of reference. Likewise our understanding of God is limited by our fallen nature.

So we're just advanced dogs. Good to know how you feel about how your loving God feels about you.

Actually that would be your random evolution theory viewpoint.

Uh, no. There is no conscious volition behind evolutionary processes. It's apparent you do not really understand evolution.

No, I do. I never claimed any conscious volition behind your view of evolution. It is random because it requires random mutations to create improvements/adaptations that will get passed on.

I love when atheists act intentionally obtuse - it completely discredits them to serious readers.

I hate it when theists try to bulljive people with answers that make zero sense.

You understood that the analogy was just a useful analogy and then proceeded to say that God views us like dogs, when it had nothing to do with the analogy being made. Intentionally obtuse.

Second, the very concept of 'omnipotence' is incoherent. Questions like 'Can God create a rock so big that he could not lift it?' demonstrate this. An omnipotent being should be able to do anything yet he is limited by his own omnipotence.

Omnipotence is the ability to do whatsoever he desires. All of nature operates according to his will.

Yet his is limited by that omnipotence thus is not omnipotent after all. It's an incoherent concept. You did not really demonstrate otherwise here.

Everything that exists is an act of pure will on the part of God. Matter being finite (by design) is always inferior to the spiritual.

And there it is. Your are implicitly asserting the existence of a realm that you cannot in any way demonstrate or evidence. Once you do that you've left the realm of reality and stepped into baseless assertion. Show me some actual evidence of this 'spirit' you claim exists and you might have an argument.

Hey you started the thread discussing God and giving the impression you were referring to the Christian understanding of God. While there are logical arguments that can be used, I don't have to. We are talking about the Christian God who is defined as Spirit in nature.

All of time and space is in the present to God. Something greater than the source is logically impossible. Something more perfect that perfect makes no sense.

You say we can't understand God yet you claim to know all about him. That's self-contradictory and, in my opinion, just your own desires expressed as fact.

We understand what he has revealed of himself to us.

Now to give a snide answer to a non-serious question. Jesus was God, he fell numerous times under the weight of the cross. If a large piece of wood is too heavy then there would be rocks he could not lift. And yet God can do anything by his will alone. So there were rocks that he both simultaneously could and could not lift.

Sophistry. Can and cannot are mutually exclusive. In your story your God chose to limit himself to what a human body was capable of and not utilize his power. That does not demonstrate that he could have easily carried the cross and not died from being tormented. Totally different circumstances.

No duh. It is a dumb question to begin with.

It wasn't really a question, if you'd read the entire paragraph. I used that particular question to express the incoherence of the concept of omnipotence. Apparently that went over your head as well.

And it was once again you viewing God as a being instead of being itself as a piece of existence instead of existence itself, the infinite compared to the finite. Heck we don't even know what matter and energy are - we know properties, but not what they are.

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

Your traditions aren't evidence any more than modern day Odinists' are. Your god and Odin are exactly equal in the amount of real evidence for their existence.

Except that mine has a specific time and place that he has interacted with humanity instead of vague stories.

But I'll let that go. Care to answer the question? How exactly did this non-being reveal parts of itself to you?

He revealed himself through the prophets and Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. He left men with his authority, who wrote down his words and carried on the Traditions they learned. This has passed from generation to generation through to the present day.

Oh so it was an indirect revelation? Sort of like the way I have an indirect conversation with the Queen every Xmas?

Oh. I'm sorry you need God to personally reveal himself in his glory for you to believe? You seem to want God to be a tyrant.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/12/2016 8:27:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:23:26 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:21:20 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:13:59 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:09:09 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:04:57 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:55:57 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:48:09 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:45:08 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:42:29 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:35:58 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:34:37 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:28:15 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 6:24:57 PM, dhardage wrote:

So this non-being has revealed parts of himself to you. How exactly did he do that? Second, any time someone makes a claim of knowledge I will expect actual evidence, otherwise its all in the mind of the claimant and has no bearing on reality.

Well since we are discussing the Christian God we are discussing the Bible and the Tradition of the Church.

The Tradition of the Church is invalid, only scripture has authority.

Blah, blah, blah. You have no legitimate authority to make that statement.

As much authority as you do to say otherwise so we're on a level playing field. Still waiting on you to answer the question.

On the contrary. You can point to who the president of the United States is because of process and the continuity of the line. In the same way I can show that the Papacy extends back to Peter in an unbroken line. There is only one body on earth that can make that claim.

Anybody can make a claim. That doesn't make it true. The fact is you have no evidence to support that claim any more than you do the existence of your deity.

http://www.newadvent.org...

Ah, yes, well, just as an example the documents that supposedly connect St. Linus to St. Peter were written 100 yeas after the fact. What you have in the Catholic Church justifying their power structure and that structure has a vested interest in making that lineage seem unbroken. Show me something that is not produced and promulgated by the Catholic church that supports this list in toto or it has little or no credibility.

Show me contemporary works on Alexander the Great.

Why would Jews or pagans be documenting the Catholic Church. It like asking why facebook isn't document DDO. There is no self interest there to do so. Most historical documents are internal sources - those are the facts of life.

Please don't try that junk. If there were truly miraculous events occurring someone would have made a record of it besides the proponents of the religion. If all the dead of a city left their graves and visited their relatives it would be something that would be recorded by someone. See, miracles that affect an entire city or more aren't just seen by the faithful. Same goes for leaders of large religions. They affect more than just their flock. Look at the popes of recent decades. Your assertion is patently fallacious.

Lol, now we're done. When you stop actually addressing what I post, I lose interest.

Large miracle seen by believers and non-believers alike - Fatima.

An event reported differently by many of the observers, among other things. Amazing how the incidence of miracles like that has dropped to zero with the advent of smartphones and digital cameras, isn't it?

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.

Can you define what a miracle is? Please don't say a miraculous event lol.
dhardage
Posts: 4,546
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5/12/2016 8:31:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:18:07 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 8:14:03 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:55:33 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:33:43 PM, dhardage wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.

Still doesn't explain why there are no such miracles reported in the time of so many devices that could record and verify them, does it? Nice dodge, by the way.

Oh you just want something simple like a photo?

Very well here is an unreproducible photo with all the necessary forensic evidence:

http://www.debate.org...

Shroud of Turin., Tested, shown to be Medieval in manufacture. Meaningless outside your church.

1. The data has never been made public for review

Lie. Numerous publications with the data.

One example - McCrone analyzed the shroud and found traces of chemicals that were used in "two common artist's pigments of the 14th century, red ochre and vermilion, with a collagen (gelatin) tempera binder" (McCrone 1998). He makes his complete case that the shroud is a medieval painting in Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin (March 1999). For his work, McCrone was awarded the American Chemical Society's Award in Analytical Chemistry in 2000."

References:

context of medieval relics."

McCrone, Walter. Judgment Day for the Shroud of Turin (Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 1999).

McCrone, Walter C. 1989. "The Shroud of Turin: Blood or Artist's Pigment?" Acc. Chem. Res. 1990, V. 23.

Nickell, Joe. (1998). Inquest On The Shroud Of Turin: Latest Scientific Findings. Prometheus Books.

Nickell, Joe. (1993). Looking For A Miracle: Weeping Icons, Relics, Stigmata, Visions and Healing Cures. Prometheus Books.

Nickell, Joe. (1994). "Pollens on the 'Shroud': A study in deception," Skeptical Inquirer, Summer.

Nickell, Joe. (2005). Claims of Invalid "Shroud" Radiocarbon Date Cut from Whole Cloth. CSICOP On-line.

Rogers, Raymond N. (2005). Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the Shroud of Turin. Thermochimica Acta 425: 189"194.

Schafersman, Steven D. (1998). "Unraveling the Shroud of Turin," Approfondimento Sindone, Year II, vol. 2.

Toro, Hern"n. 2004. Las anomal"as ignoradas del "sudario" de Tur"n. Pensar. Vol. 1 No. 1. Despite the abundance of pseudo-scientific verbiage used by defenders of the "shroud" as the burial cloth of Jesus, the authenticity of the the images on the "shroud" cannot withstand a simple logical analysis. The figure is not a negative, the image is not anatomically accurate, no one can say that the wounds of the nails are on the wrists, the spots of "blood" are but pictures painted with red ocher and vermilion, the supposed corpse has ape-like proportions and adopts impossible positions, and the figure does not satisfy the geometric conditions of contact formation.

websites

The Shroud of Turin Research at McCrone Research Institute

McCrone Walter C. "Red Ochre and Vermilion on Shroud Tapes?" Approfondimento Sindone 1998.

The Skeptical Shroud of Turin Website

Cloudy shroud Is the linen a holy relic or just a pious fraud? Jeffery L. Sheler

Debunking the Shroud - Made by Human Hands by Gary Vikan

Science, Archaeology, and the Shroud of Turin PAUL C. MALONEY General Projects Director Association of Scientists and Scholars International for the Shroud of Turin

2. The Chi-square data falls outside bounds for it to be considered a homogeneous piece that was tested.

Show me. If it wasn't made public, how do you know?

3. Sample has shown gum and dissimilar materials present in test sample.

Show me. Otherwise, baseless assertion.

4. Nobody can even come close to replicating it.

Lie. http://www.cnn.com...

Try again.
MadCornishBiker
Posts: 25,917
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5/12/2016 8:31:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:14:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 8:06:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:51:50 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:39:27 PM, dhardage wrote:


The conclusion of early Church fathers was that the Gospel of Luke actually gave Mary's lineage because Heli was the name ascribe to Mary's father.

Which just goes to show how little they knew.

Typical Apostate thinking.

Unlike the watchtower that changes it teachings regularly because they have no divine inspiration.

It is because they have divine inspiration that they are able to learn when they get something wrong, As Proverbs 4:16 shows, the light will continue to get brighter right up to the perfect day, which is about 900 years away yet.

Improved light brings improved understanding.

Improved understanding brings changes made to fit that understanding.

Those who have not learned and not changed because Jehovah isn't teaching them are as good as dead.

After all, that is the whole purpose of Jehovah drawing people to his son's side as Jesus himself said and quoted Isaiah 54:13 to show:

John 6:44, 45
44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: "They will all be taught by Jehovah." Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me.

The JWs were drawn to Jesus side at the time they were needed, as the end of the Gentile Times approached, and Jesus taught them his father's ways,.

It took longer than it should because unlike the Apostles, who knew the Hebrew Scripture intimately, even if they didn't understand them, in the 1st century Babylon the great took little notice of the Hebrew Scriptures. Therefore they had little experience of how Jehovah works, and it took them some time to learn.

The trouble is because you too have little knowledge and even less understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures you have no idea of the basis that Christ taught from.

The fact remains that as Jesus said at John 6:44,45, the entire purpose of people being drawn to Jesus side, as the JWs were, was for them to learn.

I think it is probably about time you started to, before it's too late.
It impossible to make a horse drink which is not thirsty, or eat if it is not hungry.

Likewise it is impossible to teach a person who does not wish to learn. Matthew 13:15.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/12/2016 8:31:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 7:29:30 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/11/2016 2:28:12 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
To all the believers of an omnipotent God, is it possible for God to create a more powerful and complex being than he himself?

This is the problem with most atheists. God is not a being. God is being itself.

And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

That's a contradiction. "Omnipotent beings cannot get more powerful than omnipotent" The sentence just doesn't make sense. Omnipotent beings ALWAYS can, they NEVER "cannot". If you find this troublesome to comprehend, then you are finding God troublesome to comprehend too.

So that would mean God is limited by his omnipotence? In reality there is no omnipotence because it is basically a paradox. Thus no omnipitent God exists, thus any religion that claims an omnipotent God exists is wrong.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 8:32:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:27:25 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:25:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:

Ummm... major miracles occur very rarely... that is why they are miracles. Contemporary reports on the miracle even by non-believers were quite similar. It was reports that came decades later that were different.

Can you define what a miracle is? Please don't say a miraculous event lol.

Now that is funny! :-)

A couple of decent definitions:

A sensibly perceptible effect, surpassing at least the powers of visible nature, produced by God to witness to some truth or testify to someone's sanctity.

or

A miracle is a supernatural sign or wonder, brought about by God, signifying His glory and the salvation of mankind. As a sign, a miracle is perceived by the senses and makes present the supernatural order, God's governance of nature, and His loving plan of salvation.
Geogeer
Posts: 6,004
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5/12/2016 8:33:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:31:24 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 8:14:53 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 8:06:53 PM, MadCornishBiker wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:51:50 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 7:39:27 PM, dhardage wrote:


The conclusion of early Church fathers was that the Gospel of Luke actually gave Mary's lineage because Heli was the name ascribe to Mary's father.

Which just goes to show how little they knew.

Typical Apostate thinking.

Unlike the watchtower that changes it teachings regularly because they have no divine inspiration.

It is because they have divine inspiration that they are able to learn when they get something wrong, As Proverbs 4:16 shows, the light will continue to get brighter right up to the perfect day, which is about 900 years away yet.

Improved light brings improved understanding.

Improved understanding brings changes made to fit that understanding.

Those who have not learned and not changed because Jehovah isn't teaching them are as good as dead.

After all, that is the whole purpose of Jehovah drawing people to his son's side as Jesus himself said and quoted Isaiah 54:13 to show:

John 6:44, 45
44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, and I will resurrect him on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: "They will all be taught by Jehovah." Everyone who has listened to the Father and has learned comes to me.

The JWs were drawn to Jesus side at the time they were needed, as the end of the Gentile Times approached, and Jesus taught them his father's ways,.

It took longer than it should because unlike the Apostles, who knew the Hebrew Scripture intimately, even if they didn't understand them, in the 1st century Babylon the great took little notice of the Hebrew Scriptures. Therefore they had little experience of how Jehovah works, and it took them some time to learn.

The trouble is because you too have little knowledge and even less understanding of the Hebrew Scriptures you have no idea of the basis that Christ taught from.

The fact remains that as Jesus said at John 6:44,45, the entire purpose of people being drawn to Jesus side, as the JWs were, was for them to learn.

I think it is probably about time you started to, before it's too late.

Then you don't know if anything you say is right because additional revelation could reveal what you know to be imperfect and false.
Redfordnutt
Posts: 222
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5/12/2016 8:38:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 5/12/2016 8:15:19 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 8:07:28 PM, Redfordnutt wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:57:39 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/12/2016 4:23:37 PM, user13579 wrote:
At 5/11/2016 5:49:11 PM, Geogeer wrote:
And one cannot get more powerful than omnipotent.

"One is omnipotent"
"There is something one cannot do"

does not compute

You cannot make something larger than infinite.

So God is restricted by infinity? Thought God would be too powerful to be restricted.

lol.

I know, it's funny when I write it, but it's even more absurd to think that people actually believe this stuff. In essence you are laughing at your own beliefs...........lol.